Lancaster's 2012 Summer Bolters - What might we see in 2013?

First topic message reminder :

For the summer tour of South Africa last year, Stuart Lancaster took 14 uncapped players. Before reviewing which uncapped players may be going to Argentina this summer, lets just look at the progress, or lack of, made by last year's uncapped bunch.

Tom Youngs
Quite possibly the most controversial selection at the time having not started a single premiership match at hooker. Youngs shared the midweek duties with fellow bolter Joe Gray. A good start to the premiership season with Leicester plus injury to Dylan Hartley saw him earn his first cap against Fiji in the autumn. Intermittent issues with his throwing, and concerns over his short stature have been counterbalanced by his all action approach. An outside chance of touring with the Lions, Tom Youngs has started 8 of the 9 internationals since the summer tour and has shown just why Lancaster took a risk on him..

Joe Gray
As stated above, shared midweek duties with Youngs. Whilst he seems to have firmly established himself as first choice at Quins this season (starting 18 of 20 premiership matches) and featured for the Saxons, Quins fans have started to call for him to be replaced by Rob Buchanan.

Joe Marler
Made his test debut on the Summer tour, featuring in all 3 matches. While he has yet to bring his all action game to the test arena, he has still managed to earn 10 caps. He is still learning his craft and will face major competition for further caps from Alex Cobisiero and Mako Vunipola, but we can expect to see him well in the mix as we head towards RWC 2015.

Rupert Harden
Replaced the injured Matt Stevens ahead of departure to SA, was on the bench for the midweek games. Injury denied him the chance to feature for the Saxons this season, while a further injury in March is probably season ending.

Graham Kitchener
Another controversial decision, Kitchener has looked very good at Tigers this season for whom he has made 16 starts in AP and HEC this season. He appeared in both Saxons matches this season to remain very much in Lancaster's plans, yet as the climax of the season approaches may have been overtaken by Ed Slater.

Joe Launchbury
Flew out to South Africa with the squad, but was unable to recover from a knee injury sustained during pre-tour training and was replaced by Jamie Gibson. Made his test debut off the bench against Fiji and a further bench appearance against Australia before making his full debut against SA. 6 further starts have followed, and he was one of England's best players in the 6Ns. Another with an outside chance of making the Lions tour.

George Robson
The fourth uncapped 2nd row to go on tour, he captained the midweek team and played in both Saxons matches this season. Still young enough to make a test debut you just get the feeling that he is unlikely to ever feature prominently for England.

Thomas Waldrom
Made his debut from the bench against SA before securing the starting berth for the 3rd (drawn) test. Two more starts in the first two AIs have since been followed by a solitary bench appearance against Italy. A figure of fun and almost universally despised by England fans, he is also a cult hero at Welford Rd. You woul dthink he is unlikely to feature heavily in Lancaster's future plans.

Carl Fearns
Despite looking not quite fit ( an accusation that could be levelled at several up and coming back row forwards) he made a promising impression in the mid-week matches. Injuries and doubts over his best position continue to slow the expected development. He will hope to be going to South america, but the rise of players like Kruis, Fraser, Wallace and Billy Vunipola will mean he needs a strong close to the season.

Tom Johnson
5 consecutive starts beginning with the 1st test in SA were reward for slogging his way through the junior levels. Unlikely to feature much in the future.

Jonathan Joseph
The young centre appeared in all 3 tests in SA, initially from the bench. A 4th cap as a replacement in the win over NZ was his last appearance in the white of England. Career has faltered in 2013 with most of his appearances at FB since turn of the year and no starts for a couple of months. He will hope that the move to Bath revitalises things, and that Lancaster has not forgotten him.

George Lowe
Appeared on the wing in one midweek match, he will have been disappointed in the way his 12/13 season has panned out. Injuries and iffy form have seen him make just 9 starts for Quins in 27 AP/HEC matches.

Christian Wade
Looked good on attack in the midweek games, notching a hat-trick in the first. Lancaster and Farrell may have taken more notice of his defensive naivety. The England management's pre-occupation with defence has as yet seen this fine talent fail to gain a cap. Hopefully that will be rectified this Summer - unless he goes to Australia.

Alex Goode
Coming off the bench in the 2nd test to replace the unfortunate Mike Brown, he has started every test for England since. An intelligent footballer, he has divided fans opinion since. Mike Brown, perhaps the best FB in the AP over the last two years, has had to move to the wing - a move that many are not happy with. Ironic really but it may be that Goode does not quite have the pace needed to thrive at international level. Continued strong performances for Sarries will see him in the England team for some time to come however.


Jonny May and Jamie Gibson were two further uncapped players called up during the tour.


Summary
Of the 14 uncapped players to tour SA, 5 made test appearances on that tour and another 2 were capped first in the AIs. Four of them have become regulars for England since then. Most notably with Youngs and Launchbury, Lancaster has shown that he is not scared of trusting inexperienced players. He does however seem to prefer defensive shape over attacking flair. Some of these guys have clearly slipped down the pecking order - and may struggle to make this summers tour.


2013 summer Tour Wildcards
My predictions as to some of the uncapped faces we can expect to see in South America:

Henry Thomas
The young Sale tighthead would have been favoured to tour even without the injury to Harden. He trained with the EPS this season and with cole probably Australia bound should be challenging David Wilson for the test berth.

Ed Slater
Has spent much of the season behind Kitchener at Tigers, but recent performances have moved him right into the spotlight. Both tigers young guns may travel.

George Kruis
Capable of playing second row and back row, the sort of player Lancaster likes. Main problem will be to secure a starting berth at Sarries, though that did not prevent Lancaster taking risks with Youngs and Kitchener last year.

Calum Clark
A Lancaster favourite. If fit he will travel.

Matt Kvesic
Covers 8 and 7 with equal applomb. Has moved ahead of Carl Fearns and will probably travel.

Will Fraser
Fantastic season for Sarries. Probably tourist irrelevant of Gatland's selections.

George Ford
Not been a good season for the young man, but with Owen Farrell probably on the way to Australia can expect to tour.

Kyle Eastmond & Joel Tomkins
At least one, and probably both of these former RL stars will tour.

Jonny May
Offers real pace. Shone in his replacement midweek appearance last year. Will be joined by fellow speedster Wade if he does not become a Lion.

Elliot Daly
Was left out of the JWC last summer for strength and conditioning training. Is he a centre or a FB. Not sure though England seem to see him as a FB. Pace, big boot, good hands and an eye for the gap. Could be a real star in the making.

11. May
14. Wade
15. Foden

Wow theres some pace and ability there...

But sadly Lancs will be blind to that and see..."poor defence" and play a winger thats a good tackler but never scores...

I want to see some attacking play in Argentina...i want to see a repeat of the NZ game...where our style was most impressive. Physcial, aggressive, powerful and quick.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

11. May
14. Wade
15. Foden

Wow theres some pace and ability there...

But sadly Lancs will be blind to that and see..."poor defence" and play a winger thats a good tackler but never scores...

I want to see some attacking play in Argentina...i want to see a repeat of the NZ game...where our style was most impressive. Physcial, aggressive, powerful and quick.

Exactly GF. That's what got the entire country going. We showed we could play like that, and the bar was set. People expected the same level of intensity in the 6N, but sadly, they failed to deliver. SL needs to find what went right against NZ and replicate it. Personally, like we've discussed before, I think it was the absence of a big ball carrier in our pack. Oh, and playing Wood at 8 when he's a superb 6.

In fairness we had the same backline from the Six Nations playing against New Zealand, so I'm not sure it's been entirely a backs selection issue. With any two of Barritt/Twelvetrees/Tuilagi/Tomkins playing centre though, we could afford to be a bit light and pacey in the back three. They're all big guys.

edit - as bluestone says, the loss of Morgan was huge.

I noticed May putting in a cracking tackle in the weekend highlights too

Surprised there is no mention of Billy Vunipola. Do you guys think he should go on the tour to Argentina or not?

I think he should go yes, but he'll be behind Morgan I'd have thought (unless Morgan makes it to Australia).

Think Morgan will go to Aus but even if he didn't think Lancaster will be using the Argentina tour to blood players hence why I think we will see Eastmond, Tomkins, Slater, May and Wade get some time on the pitch. Wouldn't be surprised if he gave Varndell a chance again either.

1. Marler
2. Hartley
3. Wilson
4. Slater
5. Launchbury
6. Croft
7. Kvesic
8. Morgan

9. Care
10. Burns
11. Wade
12. Twelvetrees
13. Tomkins
14. May
15. Brown

16. Lindsay
17. M Vunipola
18. Henry Thomas
19. Attwood
20. Simpson
21. Fraser
22. Joseph
23. Foden

Think that would be my rough team, maybe a few little changes but I'm at work and that was rushed!

Interesting that so many are going for hartley. Is that for experience and leadership...or that you think he is still Englands best hooker along with Youngs.

Im thinking we should have a look at Webber or Buchanan or even Lindsay. Im not convinced Hartley is the way forward anymore.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Interesting that so many are going for hartley. Is that for experience and leadership...or that you think he is still Englands best hooker along with Youngs.

Im thinking we should have a look at Webber or Buchanan or even Lindsay. Im not convinced Hartley is the way forward anymore.

He's not part of the long term plan but i think there is something to say about having some experience in the 1st team rather than just going in with a Saxons style team. With Cole and Corbs missing (and Youngs prob with Lions) he could help the front row to gel.

I'd give Buchanan a go off the bench, but while Hartley may not have kicked on to the level we thought he would reach yet, he is still on a completely different level from all the other options beyond Tom Youngs.

I picked him because I think he'll be desperate to prove a point if he misses out on Lions selection, and because Argentina are going to be a big challenge up front. There's no point picking May and Wade out wide and expecting them to perform if our front row can't give them a platform.

To tell the truth, I actually put Lindsay in there to start GF, but then thought that the pack lacked real international experience. Though with Croft in there, I guess he brings a shed load. I really want a good look at Lindsay this summer, possibly with Webber coming on from the bench. He looked very good against Tigers.

Regarding Bucanhan, I think I'd give him one more season of first team rugby. He certainly looks like he's got serious potential.

Has Corbis been playing for LI yet? If so, is he showing any form?

I think its too late for him on the Lions so would be good to get him out to Argentina.
I would like to see -

Corbis, Hartley, Wilson
Slater, Parling
Fraser, Kvesic, Morgan
L.Dickson
F.Burns
Wade
Twelvetrees
Tompkins/Joseph
May
Goode/Foden

There's no point picking May and Wade out wide and expecting them to perform if our front row can't give them a platform..

Ah Thom, i agree with this...we need to match the Argentinians up front. And going with an inexperienced side probably, we'll need that little bit we can get.
Just interested in seeing what peoples opinions of Hartley is. I agree he hasnt kicked on to the level i expected him to.

propdavid_london wrote:Has Corbis been playing for LI yet? If so, is he showing any form?

He started against London Welsh, and featured the week before as well I think.

GeordieFalcon wrote:I guess Davy Wilson and Attwood have booked their ticket to Argentina.

Whos that second row for exeter...he scored a cracking try at the weekend.

Wade is a must...and Varndell should be given another chance. Johnny May must go also.

That was Damien Welch Geordie. He's a bit old now at 30 (31 in July). He's played his entire career in Wales since he was at UNI in Cardiff. He was born in Reading though so is English. I believe he's just come back from a long injury lay off. Would do well as a stop gap but we've got loads of younger guys coming through now.

Will Hartley be going? I read somewhere that Lancaster said he is going to leave a number of players at home because he know's what they can do. Hartley's got nearly 50 caps, I think everyone is aware what he can and can't do. Saying that Lancaster will want SOME experienced I guess.

I see the dates have been announced:

England v Barbarians at Twickenham on 26 May

England v Combined South American Team in Uruguary 2nd June

Then two tests in Argentina

First Test in Salta on 8 June
Second in Buenos Aires on 15 June

•Head coach - Stuart Lancaster
•Forwards coach - Rob Baxter
•Defence coach - Paul Gustard
•Attack coach - Mike Catt

Cumbrian wrote:Will Hartley be going? I read somewhere that Lancaster said he is going to leave a number of players at home because he know's what they can do. Hartley's got nearly 50 caps, I think everyone is aware what he can and can't do. Saying that Lancaster will want SOME experienced I guess.

I can see the logic, but there's quite some risk in going to Argentina without some beef and experience in the pack. They know what they are doing over there.

Hartley is an interesting one given that it was only the SA tour that he was Captain in Robshaws absence and playing very well. Since then due to injury and Tom Youngs he's seen limited game time and struggled for form. I'd still say he's the next best after Youngs however but with Webber, Lindsay and Buchanan/Gray performing as they are it may not be the case for long.

Currently I'd go with Hartley, Webber and Lindsay for the Argentina tour - they offer some real bulk to the pack and are all physical presences especially, Lindsay in attack and Webber in defence.

I remember reading an interview with Shawn Edwards years back when Webber was a youngster just starting out behind Ilbanez. Edwards was asked who the biggest tackler in the squad was and without hesitation said Webber (who was around 20 at the time I believe). Seems like high praise, then you think about the other players in that Wasps squad - Worsley, Vickery, Betsen, Shaw, Lewsey, etc - and realise just how impressive that is!

funnyExiledScot wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:Will Hartley be going? I read somewhere that Lancaster said he is going to leave a number of players at home because he know's what they can do. Hartley's got nearly 50 caps, I think everyone is aware what he can and can't do. Saying that Lancaster will want SOME experienced I guess.

I can see the logic, but there's quite some risk in going to Argentina without some beef and experience in the pack. They know what they are doing over there.

FES on this ocassion you are correct. Remarkable. Well done!

I can see the logic, but there's quite some risk in going to Argentina without some beef and experience in the pack. They know what they are doing over there..

Yes but ironically...a pack of say

1 Vunipola
2 Webber/Lindsay
3 Wilson
4 Slater
5 Attwood
6 Croft
7 Kvesic
8 Morgan

has quite a bit more bulk than that which we put out in the 6n...its just lacking a bit of experience. But hey if they're good enough and physical enough...

Sub Croft for Fearns there GF, and that is one physical pack!

Eddie...i just wanted to keep one lineout option

Ha true, can't have too many fatties

Are there not enough examples of SL sticking with what he knows?

He's begun to cling to the youth of the teams he's managed and coaching skills that he's predisposed to.

How flexible is he in himself to adjust to new realities?

Is this lady for tuning?

Well i think thats what most people thought GT...but the fact that Lancs has publicly said he is going to be looking at players he doesnt know much about, would suggest a fair few new faces..or certainly fringe squad players getting the nod.

This allows the senior guys a nice summer off to recharge. But also a fairly inexperienced team..like the ones many have listed above will still be very competitive and Baxter and Gustard wont be lowering the coaching ability any either.
I think it could be a very useful summer for England. Especially as i think we all feel we need to find a little more physicality in the pack...and a little more crestivty behind it.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Well i think thats what most people thought GT...but the fact that Lancs has publicly said he is going to be looking at players he doesnt know much about, would suggest a fair few new faces..or certainly fringe squad players getting the nod.

This allows the senior guys a nice summer off to recharge. But also a fairly inexperienced team..like the ones many have listed above will still be very competitive and Baxter and Gustard wont be lowering the coaching ability any either.
I think it could be a very useful summer for England. Especially as i think we all feel we need to find a little more physicality in the pack...and a little more crestivty behind it.

Oh dear.

Well i think thats what most people thought GT...but the fact that Lancs
has publicly said he is going to be looking at players he doesnt know
much about, would suggest a fair few new faces..or certainly fringe
squad players getting the nod.

Relies on intent vs media waffle.

This allows the senior guys a nice summer off to recharge. But also a
fairly inexperienced team..like the ones many have listed above will
still be very competitive and Baxter and Gustard wont be lowering the
coaching ability any either.

Some senior players need a complete break this summer without being called up by the Lions (OK that's a different issue).

But the A Farrell issue remains set in stone.

And for me this is increasingly worrying.

Oh dear.

Why oh dear?

But the A Farrell issue remains set in stone.

Im beginning to agree...and i think Gustard is a far better defence coach.

greytiger wrote:Are there not enough examples of SL sticking with what he knows?

He's begun to cling to the youth of the teams he's managed and coaching skills that he's predisposed to.

How flexible is he in himself to adjust to new realities?

Is this lady for tuning?

It is a worry that I hope doesn't come to fruition GT. There are several players in the Saxons for instance that wouldn't be many people first choices to replace absent players in the summer but they could be who Lancaster looks to. I.e. Botha and Palmer would be above Atwood in the pecking order judging by the Saxons squad at current, David Paice before injury was above Gray and Buchanan as well. Whilst we've all been naming the squads we want to see who do we think that Lancaster will actually plump for? He has said he will look at new players but hasn't specified how radical his use of them will be.

Loosehead - Vunipola, Marler, Corbisiero (if fit)

Hooker - Hartley, Webber, Paice/Gray - I'd expect Paice and Gray to be ahead of Buchanan/Lindsay in Lancaster's reckoning

Tight head - Wilson, Thomas, PDJ - not many options in reality, personally I'd take Knight over PDJ

Lock - Launchberry, Lawes, Slater, Atwood - assuming Parling will tour with Lions, if he doesn't then Atwood to miss out

Flanker - Croft, Haskell, Kvesic, Fraser, Clark - assuming Wood and Robshaw tour

Number 8 - Morgan, Vunipola

Scrum half - Care, Dickson, Simpson

Fly half - Flood, Burns

Inside centre - Barritt, Twelvetrees

Outside centre - Tomkins, Lowe, Joseph

Wing - Ashton, Strettle, Wade, May

Full back - Goode, Brown, Foden

Looking at Lancasters selection tendencies he could view the above as a squad looking at lots of new faces and whilst it has got a fair few in it - Webber, Thomas, Slater, Kvesic, Fraser, Vunipola, Simpson, Lowe, Tomkins, Wade and May - how many of those would I predict Lancaster to be happy starting in tests given his game plan. I would predict the below side from that squad:

1.Vunipola 2.Hartley 3.Wilson 4.Lawes 5.Launchberry 6.Croft 7.Kvesic 8.Morgan
9.Care 10.Flood 11.Strettle 12.Twelvetrees 13.Barritt 14.Ashton 15.Goode
16.Webber 17.Marler 18.Thomas 19.Slater 20.Haskell 21.Dickson 22.Burns 23.Joseph

In reality I fear we may not see as many new faces get significant game time as we hope!

King_Carlos, I think I'd flip if I ever saw Paice in an England jersey again! In the autumn internationals, I thought his appearance off the bench were awful, and he offered nothing. Against the Boks, he was driven back everytime he touched the ball.

I don't understand why people rate PDJ either? I'm with you in that I'd rather take Knight over PDJ.

bluestonevedder wrote:King_Carlos, I think I'd flip if I ever saw Paice in an England jersey again! In the autumn internationals, I thought his appearance off the bench were awful, and he offered nothing. Against the Boks, he was driven back everytime he touched the ball.

I don't understand why people rate PDJ either? I'm with you in that I'd rather take Knight over PDJ.

So a first test lineup with Paice, PDJ, Wood (at 8) and Dowson (at 7) would really cheer you up. Perhaps we could also add Botha and Palmer (for experience) and Lawes at 6

Don't forget L. Dickson, Hodgson, Brown, Twelvetrees, Barritt, Ashton, Goode in the backs!

yappysnap wrote:Don't forget L. Dickson, Hodgson, Brown, Twelvetrees, Barritt, Ashton, Goode in the backs!

Looks like we almost have the team Yappster - just need a LH. Tim Payne?

LondonTiger wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote:King_Carlos, I think I'd flip if I ever saw Paice in an England jersey again! In the autumn internationals, I thought his appearance off the bench were awful, and he offered nothing. Against the Boks, he was driven back everytime he touched the ball.

I don't understand why people rate PDJ either? I'm with you in that I'd rather take Knight over PDJ.

So a first test lineup with Paice, PDJ, Wood (at 8) and Dowson (at 7) would really cheer you up. Perhaps we could also add Botha and Palmer (for experience) and Lawes at 6

Oh Jesus LT, it's too early for that. Think the mere thought of it has put me in a bad mood for the rest of the day.

Just out of curiosity...how is Slater and Attwoods limeout ability.

They may bring in the physicality...but if as is being suggested Croft goes to Australia and Wood is rested we need some lineout capability in there aswell.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Just out of curiosity...how is Slater and Attwoods limeout ability.

They may bring in the physicality...but if as is being suggested Croft goes to Australia and Wood is rested we need some lineout capability in there aswell.

Whilst Slater is not tigers main lineout target when he plays (that will often be Parling, Croft and Kitchener) he is still pretty good. He is mobile, athletic and has good hands. Limited/no experience of running a lineout - but then we do overegg how important that is sometimes. From memory he has secured some vital steals on or close to our own line in AP and HEC games this season which indicates to me that he can read the lineout pretty well.

Interesting...
So the below might have an issue against a decent lineout.

4 Attwood
5 Slater
6 Fearns
7 Kvesic
8 Morgan

On a seperate note...should one of Kvesic or Fraser seriously stand out at 7...would you drop Robshaw for one of them as an out and out 7...or swap Robshaw to 6?

Geordiefalcon

Could go with Kruis at 6 to add one another lineout option. The pack certainly wouldn't lack for grunt then.

If Croft doesn't go to Australia then of course he could be the lineout man.

Actually beshocked i could...i rate Kruis very highly.

Yes if Croft doesnt go to Oz i would take him to Argentina and he can be the lineout option at 6.

Im like you whilst i think he has certain excellent attributes, i dont rate Croft as a conventional 6..and think he's a bit of a luxury player, however in this case where we need a little more power in the engine room i can see his value.

Lancaster needs to find a balance to the pack, before RWC 2015, that has been missing since he took over.

A breakdown king (and remember Robshaw secures plenty of turnovers) is not necessarily needed if we have the right mix****. This mix of course means we need lineout options, carrying options - both explosive and hard yards, tackling and pace to hit rucks hard.

Robshaw at 7 works just fine with Morgan/Vunipola at 8 and Wood/Croft at 6. Move Robshaw to 6 and bring in Kvesic/Frase and I just feel it starts to look slightly unbalanced.




**** Tigers V Ospreys October 2012. Salvi was injured so Tigers had Waldrom at 7!!! Everyone expected Tipuric to have a field day, but Mafi, Kitchener, Parling, Youngs and Cole were all primed to clear him out if he ever tried to get the ball. End result was Tipuric was anonymous at the breakdown and spent most of the match on the back foor.

Yeah thats very true LT, and i agree totally. I would be very happy with Croft at 6 IF i knew we had heavy duty players elsewhere to make up for it.

I think Robshaw has been a huge performer for England. Likewise the performances of Dan Cole Tom Youngs etc at the breakdown has been superb.

We do however look lightweight as a group and i'd like to see us unearth some serious muscle in Argentina this year..be it Slater or Attwood or someone else etc etc.
Hopefully Launchbury will fill out a bit as well...

I do think Lancs was unfortunte losing both Morgan and Vunipola for most of the 6n...as we seriously missed that heavy duty yard maker...

Hopefully these questions can be answered during and after Argentina.

Quite a few people advocating Attwood for the tour, but personally I'd rather see Kitchener go, he's only 3 kgs lighter and I've been very impressed with his physicality and hard yards carrying in the tight, plus in my opinion he's a better lineout man (Bath top the lineouts lost this season, 64 to Tigers 37, London Welsh 2nd worst on 53), handles the ball better, as well as having a ready made partnership with Slater.

Attwood not too far behind, but is a player that I feel hasn't shown enough progression over the last number of years.

I think the big thing is that Attwood is now playing each week for Bath and we can actually see a steady improvement in the areas we need eg carrying in tight and hard tackling on the gainline, he's never going to be a top lineout lock but that's why England have Parling and potentially Croft. Attwood will bring the biff hopefully, obviously if Kitchener can do this as well then I have no problem with him being taken, often it's not all about weight but how a player uses it anyway.

Attwood vs Kitchener stats in AP. Make of them what you will:


Matches................20 / 15
Tries......................0 / 2
Points.....................0 / 10
Try assist................0 / 0
Kicks From Hand.......0 / 1
Passes..................17 / 33
Yellow cards............1 / 0
Red cards................0 / 0
Carries..................91 / 55
Metres carried......195 / 185
Clean breaks...........1 / 3
Offloads.................2 / 4
Defenders beaten ...18 / 5
Tackles...............155 / 110
Missed tackles........11 / 9
Penalties conceded.10 / 8
Turnovers conceded.7 / 11
Line outs own throw.68 / 60
Lineout steals..........3 / 7

Heres a question...is the pack seriosuly lacking in actual muscle and bulk...or was it simply we missed that Morgan / Vunipola type 8?

I have raised the idea of bringing Attwood or Slater etc in...but im a huge fan of Launchbury who has been excellent. I wouldnt necesarily like to see him replaced as a starter for the senior team. He also will fill out...he's ony 21 or something.

Likewise parling has been excellent in the lineout and in the loose. Should he be replaced?

Where do you guys want to see the extra oomph coming into the pack.

I am happy with a Parling/Launchbury type second row - but would want Morgan/BillyV at No8.

We have seen Lancaster's biggest weakness as a selector in both the back row and the Back 3. He hates leaving players out who have done nothing wrong. Tom Wood is not a no8, Mike Brown is not a winger. they are plenty good enough to play for England - but it should be in their real positions.

The stats show that they are both pretty contrasting locks. Attwood carrying stats and defenders beaten are very good. Kitchener makes big carries and is better in open play. Can't believe he had a kick from hand?!

bluestonevedder wrote:The stats show that they are both pretty contrasting locks. Attwood carrying stats and defenders beaten are very good. Kitchener makes big carries and is better in open play. Can't believe he had a kick from hand?!

From memory it went out on the full - think he thought he was a winger who could do a kick and chase.

Sounds about right LT. Had it proved to be a good kick, I'm sure Toulon would have been there offering him a contract.