A tribute to Jiffy

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rt4AIRMzJ2o

Greatest dual code international to ever play the game, now a hugely respected pundit.

Griff you make a fair point but you have to be fairly decent to make 3 tours. On the greatest scale Id have Gibbs before JD.

Jiffy is Wales version of Inverdale.
I guess the burden we all bear is that we each have one.

Despite my comments I enjoy JD as a pundit and dont doubt he was a player who had a great RL career. Dont think he achieved the same heights in RU though....

Also Im sure if he hadnt gone North he would have had the Lions shirts in his wardrobe too

100%beefy wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rt4AIRMzJ2o

Greatest dual code international to ever play the game, now a hugely respected pundit.

ah - but do you know who played 3 different codes of football at international level?

I have no issue with Jiffy as a pundit - he is knowledgeable and a fan. Its better than Inverdale who is neither

Jiffy is clearly a fan, and I don't mind him in that regard. Its good to support your team.
Sorry, but I don't see him presenting himself as all that knowledgeable. If he has some knowledge, he keeps it well hidden from me.

I put him in exactly the same boat as Inverdale. Inverdale is every much an England fan as Jiffy is a Wales supporter.

George Carlin wrote:So to summarise, apart from Brad Thorn, Jason Robinson, Scott Gibbs, Dally Meseenger, Michael O'Connor, Matt Rogers, Ricky Stuart, Ray Price, George Nepia, Bert Cooke, Noa Nadruku, John Bevan, Craig Innes, Mathew Ridge, Sonny Bill Williams, Wendell Sailor, Henry Paul, Allan Bateman, Lote Tiquiri, Inge Tuigamala and Frano Botica - we agree that Jiffy was the finest dual code international?

Glad we can all agree on something on these boards.

In short YES. None except possibly Robinson were as talented in both codes in a million years, Wendell Sailor was the give away that you are a wum, Anyone can use Wlkipedia mate, try watching some Rugby instead.

MotelMoneyMurderMadness wrote:Griff you make a fair point but you have to be fairly decent to make 3 tours. On the greatest scale Id have Gibbs before JD.

Not as long as I have a hole in my aris. Are you serious, the gulf in ability is too wide to calculate withour access to a NASA supercomputer.

I loved Scott he was a beacon in desperate times, but better player than Jiffy in any sport you care to mention let alone Rugby, never never never

Jeez dragonbreath dont be so touchy, the WUM was the guy that said Jonathan Davis was the greatest dual International ever.

aucklandlaurie wrote: Jeez dragonbreath dont be so touchy, the WUM was the guy that said Jonathan Davis was the greatest dual International ever.

Interesting. Who is then in your opinion, and I don't consider pot collecting as a sign of greatness.

In the modern era Brad Thorn.


I also dont think "pot collecting" is an indication of greatness in itself, but I do think it would be one of a number of criteria that require consideration.

The point was greatest dual code international....not who is the most skil lful footballer. Im sure JD had skills Gibbs could only dream about. And, as much as I admire JD, Gibbs and Robinson the greatest dual code international is Brad Thorn.

aucklandlaurie wrote:
In the modern era Brad Thorn.


I also dont think "pot collecting" is an indication of greatness in itself, but I do think it would be one of a number of criteria that require consideration.

Yeh I always get wet waiting for Brad to get the ball. He was a cog in a machine good at what he did but really greatest duel code player. Bulldozer in RL Dosey Bull in RU. Not my choice unless you are counting Pots which in a team sport IMO is a completley redundant exercise as the measure of a player

I agree on the point about being in a team that won trophies. I can imagine this kind of conversation...

"I was a great player."

"How many trophies did you win?"

"Err a couple."

"Couldn't have been that 'great' then."

Davies was a fine player in both codes, but Robinson and Thorn were better imo.

Different eras for sure.

True,It goes a lot further than just being skillful, its also having a wider variety of skills, for example Brad Thorn played international Rugby Union as a lock there is just no position or role that requires the same skillset in rugby League.

aucklandlaurie wrote: True,It goes a lot further than just being skillful, its also having a wider variety of skills, for example Brad Thorn played international Rugby Union as a lock there is just no position or role that requires the same skillset in rugby League.

Really are you trying to say that you have to be a football genius to play second row. You have to be a big tough bugger and have a bit of brain (actualy that is on the nice to have list). Sorry not having it. Robinson you could have a discussion about but not Brad

Jeez Robinson couldnt even get a contract in the NRL.

To be fair db, League 2nd rows and centres are almost interchangable. Thorn wasn't lacking in that regard in League.

There is no requirement for much pushing in a League scrum, and there are no line outs. For Thorn to become as accomplished at those set piece attributes of a union lock makes him stand out imo.

Too true Hound, Sonny Bill Williams has spent the last couple of years as a rugby union centre playing at a reasonably high level, now that he has gone back to league he's just slotted in as a second rower.
A lot of people forget that Thorn played several years as a front rower for Wayne Bennett at the Broncos.

Thorn may well have been a cog...thats the nature of team sport. His roles have been tough and demanding. Just because he cant step and slip through a gap like Robinson, doesnt make his achievements any less impressive or worthy of recognition. Or do you feel the only great players are the backs who run the dazzling lines not the grafting 'dozy' forwards?

MotelMoneyMurderMadness wrote:Thorn may well have been a cog...thats the nature of team sport. His roles have been tough and demanding. Just because he cant step and slip through a gap like Robinson, doesnt make his achievements any less impressive or worthy of recognition. Or do you feel the only great players are the backs who run the dazzling lines not the grafting 'dozy' forwards?

Yeah. Just like winning medals for playing in great teams doesn't make you any better than great players who played in lesser teams.

Thats a good point Saint. However Thorn played in great teams of both codes for more than a decade. You dont get into an Origin or AB shirt if you're not a great player in your own right.

dragonbreath wrote:

George Carlin wrote:So to summarise, apart from Brad Thorn, Jason Robinson, Scott Gibbs, Dally Meseenger, Michael O'Connor, Matt Rogers, Ricky Stuart, Ray Price, George Nepia, Bert Cooke, Noa Nadruku, John Bevan, Craig Innes, Mathew Ridge, Sonny Bill Williams, Wendell Sailor, Henry Paul, Allan Bateman, Lote Tiquiri, Inge Tuigamala and Frano Botica - we agree that Jiffy was the finest dual code international?

Glad we can all agree on something on these boards.

In short YES. None except possibly Robinson were as talented in both codes in a million years, Wendell Sailor was the give away that you are a wum, Anyone can use Wlkipedia mate, try watching some Rugby instead.

I was actually just repeating the content of everyone's previous posts on this thread for ironic effect. Not to worry.

doctor_grey wrote:Jiffy is clearly a fan, and I don't mind him in that regard. Its good to support your team.
Sorry, but I don't see him presenting himself as all that knowledgeable. If he has some knowledge, he keeps it well hidden from me.

I put him in exactly the same boat as Inverdale. Inverdale is every much an England fan as Jiffy is a Wales supporter.

I don't understand posts like this. Both Jiffy and Inverdale know what they're talking about. Jiffy appreciates space as well as anyone - you can hear how frustrated he gets when overlaps are butchered or the scrum half goes left when there are acres of space and barely a defender on the right. As for Inverdale, he may not have played the game to a high standard, but he certainly played the game, and I think he still does. Even if he didn't, would it matter? He's the anchor, not a pundit. (By the way, that was 'anchor', not a word that rhymes with it!)

Ive always thought of Inverdale as an absolute first class Anchor

MotelMoneyMurderMadness wrote:Thats a good point Saint. However Thorn played in great teams of both codes for more than a decade. You dont get into an Origin or AB shirt if you're not a great player in your own right.

Brad Thorn is quite a player, and one of the greatest to grace the game surely.
I said that though because earlier in the thread some had suggested that Jonathan Davies wasn't a great player at all because he didn't wear as many medals around his neck.

Jiffy was a great player no doubt. Greater than Alan Tait? Scott Gibbs? Gary Armstrong ( did he ever go to league or just threaten to?)

Little note re Brad Thorn, as the Anzac test has just finished few weeks ago. Played for Australia when they lost the only test against New Zealand in 1998. He didn't play in 1999. Which just shows he is a kiwi at heart... specially when playing for the cousins across the ditch against his own country!!

TJ wrote:Jiffy was a great player no doubt. Greater than Alan Tait? Scott Gibbs? Gary Armstrong ( did he ever go to league or just threaten to?)

Now you are just taking the urine

Alan Tait a very different sort of player but a great one. Not welsh of course

Had a look to see what I could find on youtube showing Tait https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHXsHxPglKI 1988 Scotland Wales 88 - really enjoyed watching it. Jiffy is really good and Tait makes a couple of tries as well as chopping folk down- but how good were Calder Jeffries and White?

TJ wrote:Alan Tait a very different sort of player but a great one. Not welsh of course

Nobody's perfect

MotelMoneyMurderMadness wrote:The point was greatest dual code international....not who is the most skil lful footballer. Im sure JD had skills Gibbs could only dream about. And, as much as I admire JD, Gibbs and Robinson the greatest dual code international is Brad Thorn.

Why Brad Thorn?

Because he played in some good teams?


Bloody ridiculous suggestion.

Well Brad has to have been an excellent players to have played in 3 of the better sides in both codes, All Blacks, Qld and Kangaroos, two of those being a world cup winning side, so I think he should be rated up there with the best of the dual code players

Sorry you think its 'bloody ridiculous', but thats your right I suppose. To me it makes perfect sense when you see the teams he played in and trophies they won. And by the way, Thorn didnt just get parachuted into those great teams, he earned the right to wear the jerseys.

maestegmafia wrote:

MotelMoneyMurderMadness wrote:The point was greatest dual code international....not who is the most skil lful footballer. Im sure JD had skills Gibbs could only dream about. And, as much as I admire JD, Gibbs and Robinson the greatest dual code international is Brad Thorn.

Why Brad Thorn?

Because he played in some good teams?


Bloody ridiculous suggestion.

Not reading the threads anymore ? Maesteg.

aucklandlaurie wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

MotelMoneyMurderMadness wrote:The point was greatest dual code international....not who is the most skil lful footballer. Im sure JD had skills Gibbs could only dream about. And, as much as I admire JD, Gibbs and Robinson the greatest dual code international is Brad Thorn.

Why Brad Thorn?

Because he played in some good teams?


Bloody ridiculous suggestion.

Not reading the threads anymore ? Maesteg.

Read bits and pieces Laurie, a lot of tripe to sift through these days. All rather tiring.

Skill wise Davies was head and shoulders above his contemporaries in both codes, the only other to rival him was Dai Watkins.

Brad Thorne is a great player but he couldn't do half what Davies could.

It's a debate of Big Lump of a forward vs Gifted and skilled. In my mind the player with the skills is the greater.

Yes...I see now I was very wrong...Thorn despite winning pretty much everything to win the toughest RL league, with Brisbane, the Maroons and the Kangeroos, and then repeating that in RU with Canterbury and the ABs, is not the greatest DUAL code international. You're right its JD. Sorry for being so thick....

MotelMoneyMurderMadness wrote:Yes...I see now I was very wrong...Thorn despite winning pretty much everything to win the toughest RL league, with Brisbane, the Maroons and the Kangeroos, and then repeating that in RU with Canterbury and the ABs, is not the greatest DUAL code international. You're right its JD. Sorry for being so thick....

I don't think anyone expected any less of you.

Thank goodness for that. I really do feel a bit sheepish about the whole thing.

maestegmafia wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

MotelMoneyMurderMadness wrote:The point was greatest dual code international....not who is the most skil lful footballer. Im sure JD had skills Gibbs could only dream about. And, as much as I admire JD, Gibbs and Robinson the greatest dual code international is Brad Thorn.

Why Brad Thorn?

Because he played in some good teams?


Bloody ridiculous suggestion.

Not reading the threads anymore ? Maesteg.

Read bits and pieces Laurie, a lot of tripe to sift through these days. All rather tiring.

Skill wise Davies was head and shoulders above his contemporaries in both codes, the only other to rival him was Dai Watkins.

Brad Thorne is a great player but he couldn't do half what Davies could.

It's a debate of Big Lump of a forward vs Gifted and skilled. In my mind the player with the skills is the greater.

But as previously mentioned Maesteg, the original post was about the GREATEST dual code international ever, not the most skilled. I respect Jiffy as the standout player in a lot of poor welsh teams but I've seen him have some right dogs too. Have you ever re-watched the 1987 Wales V NZ RWC semi final where wqe got destroyed by the ABs? Jiffy was ABSOLUTELY WOEFUL in that game....just sayin'...........

Everyone was woeful against that all black side mate. No matter what country they were from. That was one of the best teams ever to play the game.

Achievement is easier to distinguish, if you discount the skill a player had because the topic is to subjective.

Rugby is a game that encompasses a wide range of skills. Thorn was a skilled prop and second row in league. He then adapted to a totally different set of demands and became a skilled Union 2nd row. Because his skill set is different from JDs doesnt in anyway mean his contribution is anyless valued in my eyes. Please dont take this as some attempt to devalue JDs achievements.

Just to be clear, are you saying a forward like Martin Johnson in RU or Arthur Beetson in RL could not be considered among the greatest players, because they dont possess the skills or physical abilities of JD, Robinson or Lockyer?

maestegmafia wrote:Everyone was woeful against that all black side mate. No matter what country they were from. That was one of the best teams ever to play the game.

Achievement is easier to distinguish, if you discount the skill a player had because the topic is to subjective.

True. Though your characterisation of Thorn as "a big lump" fails to take his skills into account - for example, in his last 2 years as an AB he made more ruck turnovers than McCaw did, and in the "beep" test he generally finished 2nd to McCaw as fittest forward in the team, not bad for someone in their mid 30s. Going from being one of the top RL 2nd rows in the world to one of the top RU locks is a lot harder than transitioning as a back - Thorn became probably the best scrummaging locks in the world, as well as a being more than useful front-of-lineout jumper. So you've got ball-carrying, off-loading in the tackle, scrum power, lineout, ruck prowess as well as career longevity and leadership to consider.

Davies was a sublime union flyhalf - I remember him carrying the entire Welsh team on the 1988 tour of NZ. However his record in League isn't as good as Thorn's, he played primarily at centre for Widnes/Warrington and wound up making the GB team as a winger partly because they needed a goal kicker, but had better centre candidates - I discount his "dual code" greatest player claims for that reason. Had he converted and become a top international RL hooker/half-back/fly-half/fullback (the primary playmaking positions) he'd have more claim.

MotelMoneyMurderMadness wrote:Just to be clear, are you saying a forward like Martin Johnson in RU or Arthur Beetson in RL could not be considered among the greatest players, because they dont possess the skills or physical abilities of JD, Robinson or Lockyer?

No

"Just to be clear" I haven't said that and do not agree with that whatsoever. That is not my point at all.

I think Jonathan Davies is the best player, most skilled player and therefor the greatest player to have played both codes.

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:Everyone was woeful against that all black side mate. No matter what country they were from. That was one of the best teams ever to play the game.

Achievement is easier to distinguish, if you discount the skill a player had because the topic is to subjective.

True. Though your characterisation of Thorn as "a big lump" fails to take his skills into account - for example, in his last 2 years as an AB he made more ruck turnovers than McCaw did, and in the "beep" test he generally finished 2nd to McCaw as fittest forward in the team, not bad for someone in their mid 30s. Going from being one of the top RL 2nd rows in the world to one of the top RU locks is a lot harder than transitioning as a back - Thorn became probably the best scrummaging locks in the world, as well as a being more than useful front-of-lineout jumper. So you've got ball-carrying, off-loading in the tackle, scrum power, lineout, ruck prowess as well as career longevity and leadership to consider.



Davies was a sublime union flyhalf - I remember him carrying the entire Welsh team on the 1988 tour of NZ. However his record in League isn't as good as Thorn's, he played primarily at centre for Widnes/Warrington and wound up making the GB team as a winger partly because they needed a goal kicker, but had better centre candidates - I discount his "dual code" greatest player claims for that reason. Had he converted and become a top international RL hooker/half-back/fly-half/fullback (the primary playmaking positions) he'd have more claim.

Jiffy played centre and fullback mainly in league and had a great record with all four clubs, you forgot Bulldogs and Cowboys down south, as well as Wales and GBR. Scored some fantastic tries.

He was a player more suited to union though.

Jiffy was absolutely useless playing for both Canterbury Bankstown Bulldogs and the North Queensland Cowboys.

Once the Bulldogs got rid of him at the end of the 1991 season they did'nt look back, they improved so much that by 1995 they were the minor Premiers, that being the year that the cowboys with jiffy on board came dead flat last in the comp.

Makes one wonder how come the best, greatest and most skilful player played in so many losing teams.