Lions Squad Bonding

First topic message reminder :

There are a couple of great articles on the BBC website about how previous Lions squads have gone about building a real sense of unity before flying off on tour:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/22500959

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/22528441

What are your feelings on the subject? Would you recommend anything that hasn't been suggested?

thebluesmancometh wrote:Thats the beauty of tour rugby, we all want our players to shine and others to fall down to highlight how much more we know than the coaches and everyone else...

Speak for yourself, Bluesman.

The big difference is of course the tinternet, in years gone by we just moaned amongst our own etc down the rugby club or pub about who should have gone or why the feck is so and so going etc.

Now in the great big www.world we can communicate with other nationalities far more easier and frequent which in itself leads to more arguments how who should or shouldn't have gone etc etc.

Griff wrote:

rodders wrote:

Hound of Harrow wrote:Adam Jones has urged his Welsh team mates to bond with the other players, and not to form cliques.

I don't know what to make of that comment.

There are clear signs already how poor a captain Sam is and will be. Captaining Wales is one thing but being tour captain in a squad full of big players from all the home nations is another and how players bond in large part comes down to the captain. He's already made a few freudian slips about Wales and doesn't seem to understand the responsibilities that come as a Lions captain.

BOD and POC have been selected to hold his hand, not to play in the tests and I see this shaping up to be a very unhappy tour already.

What a Jackass comment. Sounds like you want him to do badly before a ball has even been kicked. Can you tell me the lottery numbers too, Mr Oracle of Ireland?

No I want him to do well but so far he hasn't looked anything like a Lions captain. The captaincy doesn't start when the tour does, so far he's looked totally out of his depth. Maybe he'll grow into the role but he has no physical presence a la O'Connell or Johnson and isn't articulate or charismatic with the media, like O'Driscoll or even Robshaw.

Excellent player and decent bloke but a Lions captain needs a bit more and he should be the one mentoring others and bringing the nationalities together. Instead he's rooming with O'Connell to get a crash course in tour captaincy.

I would say rooming with POC in the early build up is the perfect thing for him, he will leard far more with him then he would with say Maitland or another young tourist.

SecretFly wrote:

Risca Rev wrote:

The thing that annoys me about it really, is if people are just going to moan about it all, why not just ignore it? Nobody is being forced to watch them and it's not hard to ignore any Lions related stuff. There are a few people seemingly wanting Warburton, Lydiate, Stevens, Hartley etc to have bad tours, so they can act all I told you so.

Why should it annoy you? Or to word it differently, why should your annoyance matter to a person who is critical of Lions selections etc any more than his opinions should really matter to you.

And that's the general I'm talking about, not refering to Rodders in the particular. People will think what they think. In the years you've been observing Lions tours have you once witnessed a perfectly harmonious send-off...with Lions sing-songs and merriment from all followers?

Never would be my call on it. The Lions is the 'exciting' product it is for the very fact that it's a clash of differing convictions trying to unite under one banner. That's the drama and entertainment value of it all. If there was no recriminations, sneers, 'banter', put-downs, rivalry for numbers etc.... it wouldn't be the Lions. The party is the whole deal. The moaning, the games, the syrupy sweet comments that will come later from players about players from other Unions...it's the whole deal.

But to mention Rodders again....do you know him? Have you heard him in full swing talking about Ireland and Irish players at times? Just because you say the world is going to cave in on the next tour doesn't mean you want it to.

To be fair, I haven't specifically aimed my post at Rodders, though I did quote him in part. I also mentioned that people have been keen to criticise other selections before a ball is even kicked. I am not in agreeance with every selection call and have mentioned as much on here, but it's a pretty bold statement to make that Warburton needs somebody to hold his hand (particularly when POC and BOD are likely test starters at the minute) and is already making mistakes as a Captain before they've even played a game.

Sam Warburton has, only a few times, mentioned Wales/Welsh lads in a context of 'this will make it easier for him' and 'the Lions is like the 4 Welsh sides coming together, but bigger'.

He needs to stop this.

They are all Lions now, and will bond better if that is how they are referred to.

Remember Telfer telling them all ther would be no more 'this is how we do it at Twickenham, this is how we do it at Murrayfield etc'?

SecretFly wrote:But to mention Rodders again....do you know him? Have you heard him in full swing talking about Ireland and Irish players at times? Just because you say the world is going to cave in on the next tour doesn't mean you want it to.

Thanks fly, its true I genuinely don't want the world to cave in on this tour.....

I am trying to find the piece where he said about making it easier for him, as I do want to read it again. I thought the interview with the four Welsh sides coming together quote was pretty fair actually and I thought he was spot on in that interview, particularly mentioning he had to fight for his place.

The Gramlin wrote:Sam Warburton has, only a few times, mentioned Wales/Welsh lads in a context of 'this will make it easier for him' and 'the Lions is like the 4 Welsh sides coming together, but bigger'.

He needs to stop this.

They are all Lions now, and will bond better if that is how they are referred to.

Remember Telfer telling them all ther would be no more 'this is how we do it at Twickenham, this is how we do it at Murrayfield etc'?

Thats part of what I'm getting at, also said he would rely on the other 'Welsh leaders' in the squad.

Harsh maybe, but a Lions captain must be measured against the highest expectations.

I think this is what he's on about, Rev:

"There's a good Welsh contingent of leaders who I can rely on and there are other experienced players in the squad who can help me along the way."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/22357706

Don't see the problem myself.

rodders wrote:

The Gramlin wrote:Sam Warburton has, only a few times, mentioned Wales/Welsh lads in a context of 'this will make it easier for him' and 'the Lions is like the 4 Welsh sides coming together, but bigger'.

He needs to stop this.

They are all Lions now, and will bond better if that is how they are referred to.

Remember Telfer telling them all ther would be no more 'this is how we do it at Twickenham, this is how we do it at Murrayfield etc'?

Thats part of what I'm getting at, also said he would rely on the other 'Welsh leaders' in the squad.

Harsh maybe, but a Lions captain must be measured against the highest expectations.

Is he being coached by Gatland though, behind the scenes? Some of his comments seem to be straight off a Gatland conveyor belt of forked-tongue speaking. By the time they get to Australia, the Irish and English will be like rabid dogs ready to prove they've a say in the tour too. And Gatland will be patting Warburton on the head (after he tentatively steps onto a chair to do so) and saying: "That's my boy, you have them eating out of the palm of your hand now...lovely baiting there at the beginning"

You just want the leader to be just that - an undisputed leader. Ultimately the proof will come in the games in a few weeks time.

On the face of things there isnt much in particular thats wrong with the 2 Warburton interviews - and they do depend a lot on the questions asked, his response to them, and most crucially how its all written up by the journo. But in the interviews he does come across as mainly talking about himself and to some degree the welsh side of things (helps him having the welsh there, welsh leaders supporting him etc).

In my opinion a really good leader would have been turning the discussion over to the team as a whole and the combined challenges much more, and be avoiding nationality issues as much as possible. Less 'this is my experience so far'. much more 'this is how we are going to win'.

lostinwales wrote:
In my opinion a really good leader would have been turning the discussion over to the team as a whole and the combined challenges much more, and be avoiding nationality issues as much as possible. Less 'this is my experience so far'. much more 'this is how we are going to win'.

Exactly and what Sam is saying maybe perfectly honest and innocent but as Lions captain he is going to come under increasing media scrutiny and so far he hasn't done great.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I think this is what he's on about, Rev:

"There's a good Welsh contingent of leaders who I can rely on and there are other experienced players in the squad who can help me along the way."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/22357706

Don't see the problem myself.

Nor me. I guess you can take what you want from interviews, be it headlines (as people like to do online) or just interpret quotes in your own way. To me there's no issue, because he has mentioned the fact that there are other leaders in the squad and didn't just say about the Welsh leaders and just leave it at that.

Risca Rev wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I think this is what he's on about, Rev:

"There's a good Welsh contingent of leaders who I can rely on and there are other experienced players in the squad who can help me along the way."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/22357706

Don't see the problem myself.

Nor me. I guess you can take what you want from interviews, be it headlines (as people like to do online) or just interpret quotes in your own way. To me there's no issue, because he has mentioned the fact that there are other leaders in the squad and didn't just say about the Welsh leaders and just leave it at that.

The problem I see is there is NOT a good contingent of Welsh leaders. The Welsh test match captaincy has been passed around like a dirty magazine due to a mixture of incapability and injury. The best leaders will be the likes of BOD and POC, guys who have captained their club, country and Lions on several occasions. It is to them that Sam should be seeking guidance and advice, so rooming him with POC is a good move IMO.

I really want Sam to do well and if he can recover his form from the 2011 RWC he’ll be an excellent captain. He does need to choose his words with more precision in interviews otherwise comments like quoted above will be picked apart by guys with nothing better to do.

If there's dirty magazines going round the Welsh camp, I am going to push harder for selection next season.

I am sure Gatland and Sam will be on their guard when they get down under. They'll have both dealt with it before anyhow.

Just an aside on that, a good dvd to watch about the Australian media is the Great Britain Rugby League one from when they played the Tri Nations a few years back down under and seeing how Brian Noble enjoyed dealing with them. It's also good to see how players were picked up on loose quotes like "I prefer Blackpool to Bondi" and things like that.

I just want to start by saying Sam wouldn't have been my choice for captain for 2 reasons...

Firstly I prefer my captain to be the baddest man on the pitch, or at least the most influencial guy in the changing room ala POC, Johnson (NOT BOD) maybe AWJ, or even Heaslip.

Secondly I would prefer someone who has toured before to captain ala POC, Roberts etc...

Thats said there is no way you can judge his performance so far as captain on 2 media interviews that will mean very little, the squad as an entity hasn't even met up yet, only 22 players are at the vale right now.

What Warburton does have right now is the entire 22 on side, most of which are Welsh boys uninvolved in any finals, and the rest are being taken out of their comfort zones with the chryo etc, so Warbs is more comfortable than anyone at present, POC, Hogg, Greyetc should already have fallen in line as they look to the welsh boys to lead them through the chryo and Gatlands tendancies early on.

I'll judge Warburton on wether he's doing a good job when the entire squad gets together, and they play that first game in hong kong, that will be the first sign of his captaincy, on foreign soil against a very tough Ba Baa's team, and not a second before.

thebluesmancometh wrote:What Warburton does have right now is the entire 22 on side, most of which are Welsh boys uninvolved in any finals, and the rest are being taken out of their comfort zones with the chryo etc, so Warbs is more comfortable than anyone at present, POC, Hogg, Greyetc should already have fallen in line as they look to the welsh boys to lead them through the chryo and Gatlands tendancies early on.

Ouch - some people aren't going to like the wording of that!

I won't pick appart the wording but I seriously doubt POC will fall into line for anyone! Granted Hogg and Gray are junior guys even in the Scotland squad so I imagine they'll be learning from every experience.

From the way the media have twisted his comments though you can tell the knives are already being sharpened.... if it doesn't go well they will throw everything at him and his initial selection and performance will come under great scrutiny. I don't think he will be used to the English media's wrath.. they have been very successful in killing many a tour by various sports teams in recent years.

Looking at the Baabaas squad, them having a warm up match vs. England Saxons etc also I think this tour could have a very shaky start.

Finlay Calders Lions of 89 are similar to this tour. The English media were not happy that Calder got the nod to captain the Lions and even after the troublesome 1st test the Knives were out, but Geech kept the faith and Calder captained the Lions to Victory in the final 2 tests.

Warburton would not have been my 1st choice either but never the less, here we are and I reckon if he can bridge the gap between the strong characters and gel the team and stop cliques from forming the team will do just fine.

IMO the biggest test will come after all the domestic finals, there is no doubt those already there will already be bonding and intergrating.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I won't pick appart the wording but I seriously doubt POC will fall into line for anyone! Granted Hogg and Gray are junior guys even in the Scotland squad so I imagine they'll be learning from every experience.

Then he shouldn't be touring, his captain and coaching staff will lead the way and POC will follow, if he doesn't do you have any qualms of him not being sent home? Are you really suggesting POC isn't a team player who will follow instruction?

I love the way certain people are seen as 8ft tall monsters who command all and sundry, he is a team player who is an exceptional leader, however he is more than grounded enough to know his role, he will let his captain take the lead, and he will back the guy up with everything he has, as he did BOD for Ireland, until BOD wasn't getting the job done and POC had to take over the duties.

POC is a very nice guy, I have had the pleasure of meeting him a few times, and believe me he is a team player, and is always open to learning even at his age and with his rep, thats why he's sucha legend. Look at Munsters performances, new gameplan, new coaching staff and POC comes in and leads from the front while buying into the ethos his new coach has instilled.

thebluesmancometh wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I won't pick appart the wording but I seriously doubt POC will fall into line for anyone! Granted Hogg and Gray are junior guys even in the Scotland squad so I imagine they'll be learning from every experience.

Then he shouldn't be touring, his captain and coaching staff will lead the way and POC will follow, if he doesn't do you have any qualms of him not being sent home? Are you really suggesting POC isn't a team player who will follow instruction?

I love the way certain people are seen as 8ft tall monsters who command all and sundry, he is a team player who is an exceptional leader, however he is more than grounded enough to know his role, he will let his captain take the lead, and he will back the guy up with everything he has, as he did BOD for Ireland, until BOD wasn't getting the job done and POC had to take over the duties.

POC is a very nice guy, I have had the pleasure of meeting him a few times, and believe me he is a team player, and is always open to learning even at his age and with his rep, thats why he's sucha legend. Look at Munsters performances, new gameplan, new coaching staff and POC comes in and leads from the front while buying into the ethos his new coach has instilled.

I didn't say POC wasn't a team player. But there is a massive difference between "falling into line" and being a team player. If POC thinks he should do things his way with his 85 Ireland caps and 6 Lions caps I can't of anyone that could argue. This is Warbs problem is he is a Lions n00b and has gone from being a pretty big fish in a small pond at Wales to becoming a small fish in a massive pond, especially in terms of experience with the Lions.

His credibility was also dented with how the Welsh captaincy in the 6N was handled, I mean lets face it if he can't even captain his country to test match success how can he captain the Lions.

I'm not wanting to go digging up old discussions because I have had my rant already and want to get onside (as they say) now. I just can't think why Warbs has been named captain, especially when he wouldn't even be 1st choice for his country behind Lydiate, Tipuric and Faleteu.

I also don't want to go dragging this off topic so

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I won't pick appart the wording but I seriously doubt POC will fall into line for anyone! Granted Hogg and Gray are junior guys even in the Scotland squad so I imagine they'll be learning from every experience.

Then he shouldn't be touring, his captain and coaching staff will lead the way and POC will follow, if he doesn't do you have any qualms of him not being sent home? Are you really suggesting POC isn't a team player who will follow instruction?

I love the way certain people are seen as 8ft tall monsters who command all and sundry, he is a team player who is an exceptional leader, however he is more than grounded enough to know his role, he will let his captain take the lead, and he will back the guy up with everything he has, as he did BOD for Ireland, until BOD wasn't getting the job done and POC had to take over the duties.

POC is a very nice guy, I have had the pleasure of meeting him a few times, and believe me he is a team player, and is always open to learning even at his age and with his rep, thats why he's sucha legend. Look at Munsters performances, new gameplan, new coaching staff and POC comes in and leads from the front while buying into the ethos his new coach has instilled.

I didn't say POC wasn't a team player. But there is a massive difference between "falling into line" and being a team player. If POC thinks he should do things his way with his 85 Ireland caps and 6 Lions caps I can't of anyone that could argue. This is Warbs problem is he is a Lions n00b and has gone from being a pretty big fish in a small pond at Wales to becoming a small fish in a massive pond, especially in terms of experience with the Lions.

His credibility was also dented with how the Welsh captaincy in the 6N was handled, I mean lets face it if he can't even captain his country to test match success how can he captain the Lions.

I'm not wanting to go digging up old discussions because I have had my rant already and want to get onside (as they say) now. I just can't think why Warbs has been named captain, especially when he wouldn't even be 1st choice for his country behind Lydiate, Tipuric and Faleteu.

I also don't want to go dragging this off topic so

Firstly, as I said I would agree on Warbs, he has struggled recently with injury, fitness and form, and has needed to let someone else take the captaincy on to get some form back, I also agree on the lions noob thing, and he wouldn't have been my choice.

But the positives are he has led Wales to far more success than POC has led Ireland to, he has led his team to beating Ireland in GS, and a world cup, where arguably the whole gameplan from Ireland was wrong (POC 80 caps didnt't help him that day), so 2 championships and a World cup 3rd place playoff makes Warbs the most succesfull captain of the lot no?

Warburton has also recieved plaudits from media all around the world for the way he and the Welsh team conducted themselves in NZ, buoyed by the English antics I'm sure but I watched and read numerous comparisons about both camps from NZ media.

Warburton is also generally liked by refs, he discusses, doesn't make faces, argue with them or criticise them.

All that said I probably still wouldn't have chosen Warburton, but hey ho what do I know?

RE POC, he certainly will fall in line, and if he thinks 'he should do things his way' I guarentee you that Gatland will have him on the first plane home!!! Not that POC would be big headed or arrogant enough to disagree with and make waves within a camp when he will know how important unity is, it is far better to follow a wrong man making wrong decisions into battle than try to disrupt the wrong man and complicate the wrong decisions futhermore! POC is still a player, which means he is an executor of orders, he will fall in line, he will know his place and the legend he is will be respectfull enough to let the coaches do their job and help with anything they may need.

RDW_Scotland wrote:Have to say it will be difficult for the Welsh to ensure it doesn’t look like they are just sticking with each other – there are 15 Welsh to 7 others just now, 2 Welshman to every man!

Great so see pictures on Facebook and Twitter of what is going on – Hogg looks like he is having the time of his life. Feel sorry for the family that had to feed Adam Jones!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3L6LakbiWAE

i think it be Sams job to get everyone to feel part of one team rather Midweek and test players like previous tours

thebluesmancometh wrote:.

What Warburton does have right now is the entire 22 on side, most of which are Welsh boys uninvolved in any finals, and the rest are being taken out of their comfort zones with the chryo etc, so Warbs is more comfortable than anyone at present, POC, Hogg, Greyetc should already have fallen in line as they look to the welsh boys to lead them through the chryo and Gatlands tendancies early on.

For the record, David Wallace got his first Lions call-up in Copenhagan in 2001 on his way to Spala with Gatty - they know all about it.

A funny from joe.ie - no doubt inspired by Jerry Flannery (who is a part owner in the site and would know these things).

Picture: Paul O'Connell flashing the guns at Lions training
14/05/2013 10:47 pm

Paul O’Connell was one of a number of the British and Irish Lions squad being put through their paces today and he’ll be keeping a hold of this beauty of a photo taken from their training camp in Wales

http://joe.ie/rugby/rugby-news/picture-paul-oconnell-flashing-the-guns-at-lions-training-0037804-1

And you do realise that POC has been on more Lions Tours than Gats & Warbs combined!

rodders wrote:

Griff wrote:

rodders wrote:

Hound of Harrow wrote:Adam Jones has urged his Welsh team mates to bond with the other players, and not to form cliques.

I don't know what to make of that comment.

There are clear signs already how poor a captain Sam is and will be. Captaining Wales is one thing but being tour captain in a squad full of big players from all the home nations is another and how players bond in large part comes down to the captain. He's already made a few freudian slips about Wales and doesn't seem to understand the responsibilities that come as a Lions captain.

BOD and POC have been selected to hold his hand, not to play in the tests and I see this shaping up to be a very unhappy tour already.

What a Jackass comment. Sounds like you want him to do badly before a ball has even been kicked. Can you tell me the lottery numbers too, Mr Oracle of Ireland?

No I want him to do well but so far he hasn't looked anything like a Lions captain. The captaincy doesn't start when the tour does, so far he's looked totally out of his depth. Maybe he'll grow into the role but he has no physical presence a la O'Connell or Johnson and isn't articulate or charismatic with the media, like O'Driscoll or even Robshaw.

Excellent player and decent bloke but a Lions captain needs a bit more and he should be the one mentoring others and bringing the nationalities together. Instead he's rooming with O'Connell to get a crash course in tour captaincy.

I'd class him as articulate and charismatic. From what I've seen of him in the media. Each to their own I guess. I don't find O'Conell that charismatic. Just a big monotone beast. O'Driscoll I can agree on though.

Thinking back though, Martin Johnson for me was not the most charismatic or articulate. He didn't reveal any personality and mainly grunted at the media!

And the physical presence thing - O'Driscoll is not that much of a physical presence either (2005 captaincy and much fancied captain for this tour). Gavin Hastings, Rob Andrew, Phil Bennett, John Dawes - previous captains who were obviously not the most physical in the team. Not sure there are many currently who fit the physical, articulate, charismatic mould. Maybe Robshaw? Subjective I guess.

Sin é wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:.

What Warburton does have right now is the entire 22 on side, most of which are Welsh boys uninvolved in any finals, and the rest are being taken out of their comfort zones with the chryo etc, so Warbs is more comfortable than anyone at present, POC, Hogg, Greyetc should already have fallen in line as they look to the welsh boys to lead them through the chryo and Gatlands tendancies early on.

For the record, David Wallace got his first Lions call-up in Copenhagan in 2001 on his way to Spala with Gatty - they know all about it.

A funny from joe.ie - no doubt inspired by Jerry Flannery (who is a part owner in the site and would know these things).

Picture: Paul O'Connell flashing the guns at Lions training
14/05/2013 10:47 pm

Paul O’Connell was one of a number of the British and Irish Lions squad being put through their paces today and he’ll be keeping a hold of this beauty of a photo taken from their training camp in Wales

http://joe.ie/rugby/rugby-news/picture-paul-oconnell-flashing-the-guns-at-lions-training-0037804-1

And you do realise that POC has been on more Lions Tours than Gats & Warbs combined!

Oh I see, so POC is the guy in charge? He's calling the shots? He's selected the team, selected the captain and will determine the way they will play?

Or is he a mere squad member like everyone else who will execute orders as he is told to?!

Just because I am not claiming POC is not 8ft tall, spits fire from his eyeballs and consumes Aussies for breakfast doesn't mean I'm insulting him, he is a legend but he will be the first guy to admit he is just a squad player looking for the same opportunities as the other locks, infact I'd go as far to say that he's even an outsider for a test spot at present, but then of course how dare I be so disrespecfull to the all knowing POC.

Seriously get a grip

Oh and chryo is a touch different today than it was 13 years ago, according to what I've read the Irish team under Gats went 3 times, and it was more bonding than pro.

I have always struggled with the decision to make Warburton captain.

The captaincy passed from Warburton to Ryan Jones this year at Wales. The reason given by Wales coaching team in countless interviews was that Warburton will be better without the pressure of captaincy and can concentrate on his own game.

Ryan Jones picked up an injury. We all assumed it would go back to Warburton but he was overlooked for Gethin Jenkins for Wales' biggest game of the 6 Nations (against England).

Warburton played and played a superb match but to me it reinforced what the Welsh coaches said. He will play best when left to concentrate on his own game instead of being captain.

Then suddenly he is being made Lions captain? Surely the last 12 months have proven that he is a first class player but is not suited to captaincy.

I think that Alun Wyn Jones would have been a good choice. A little bit under the radar, has done a Lions Tour before, proven captain with Ospreys, has captained Wales.

I just worry that when push comes to shove will we all be talking about how blatent it was that Warburton was not suited to being a leading captain.

There is no definitive archetype regarding the ideal attitude and personality any skipper ought to have, not even for a Lions skipper. I hope people remember that. Having a loud voice, regulating your behaviour in interviews etc aren't fixed parameters by which you pick your captain, though admittedly having one or more of these attributes often supports your claim. On-field leadership is the decisive factor though and in this respect BOD, POC and Warbs have all shown that they can lead a side to some successful feats.

Here's a question regarding on-field leadership, would people claim that BOD and POC still lead sides today as well as they did in earlier years? My impression is no, excepting BOD's stormer against Wales earlier in the year but then that was without the pressures of the armband. This is what makes me wonder when I see people criticising Warbs' behaviour off the field and citing their preferences to having people who are more savvy in that role... none of this need necessarily relate to the on-field situation. POC was lauded for being a big dressing room-talker on the last tour but for all that I found his performances as skipper to be far from inspirational, at least until the final test when the series was out of reach.

Add to this also the fact that there are barely any non-Welsh players at the camps compared to what is to come. I'd imagine this would make it far more difficult to integrate to the desired level if, from the Welsh players' perspective, it's barely any different to a Wales training camp atm. With this in mind, it's just as much the responsibility of others to integrate with the Welsh as it is the Welsh players' to get to know everyone else.

In answer to the original question posed, I'm going to be conventional and say set a night or two aside to give the players some pocket change for alcoholic beverages and send them to run amok in whatever city they're staying in. What better way to get to know someone in a couple of hours? As a safeguard, the players should be explicitly warned that activities such as buggy-racing, dwarf-tossing and improvised deep-sea diving are not part of the curriculum.

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Sin é wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:.

What Warburton does have right now is the entire 22 on side, most of which are Welsh boys uninvolved in any finals, and the rest are being taken out of their comfort zones with the chryo etc, so Warbs is more comfortable than anyone at present, POC, Hogg, Greyetc should already have fallen in line as they look to the welsh boys to lead them through the chryo and Gatlands tendancies early on.

For the record, David Wallace got his first Lions call-up in Copenhagan in 2001 on his way to Spala with Gatty - they know all about it.

A funny from joe.ie - no doubt inspired by Jerry Flannery (who is a part owner in the site and would know these things).

Picture: Paul O'Connell flashing the guns at Lions training
14/05/2013 10:47 pm

Paul O’Connell was one of a number of the British and Irish Lions squad being put through their paces today and he’ll be keeping a hold of this beauty of a photo taken from their training camp in Wales

http://joe.ie/rugby/rugby-news/picture-paul-oconnell-flashing-the-guns-at-lions-training-0037804-1

And you do realise that POC has been on more Lions Tours than Gats & Warbs combined!

Oh I see, so POC is the guy in charge? He's calling the shots? He's selected the team, selected the captain and will determine the way they will play?

Or is he a mere squad member like everyone else who will execute orders as he is told to?!

Just because I am not claiming POC is not 8ft tall, spits fire from his eyeballs and consumes Aussies for breakfast doesn't mean I'm insulting him, he is a legend but he will be the first guy to admit he is just a squad player looking for the same opportunities as the other locks, infact I'd go as far to say that he's even an outsider for a test spot at present, but then of course how dare I be so disrespecfull to the all knowing POC.

Seriously get a grip

Nope. He is just not out of his comfort zone as you suggested he would be having done the whole crypto lark, Lions tourist and Lion captaincy.

..... and the rest are being taken out of their comfort zones with the chryo etc, so Warbs is more comfortable than anyone at present, POC, Hogg, Greyetc should already have fallen in line as they look to the welsh boys to lead them through the chryo and Gatlands ten dancies early on.

Secondly, Ireland have been going to Spala as recently as 2007 when Ireland gave it up because they reckoned it wasn't helping their injury situation.

Sin é wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Sin é wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:.

What Warburton does have right now is the entire 22 on side, most of which are Welsh boys uninvolved in any finals, and the rest are being taken out of their comfort zones with the chryo etc, so Warbs is more comfortable than anyone at present, POC, Hogg, Greyetc should already have fallen in line as they look to the welsh boys to lead them through the chryo and Gatlands tendancies early on.

For the record, David Wallace got his first Lions call-up in Copenhagan in 2001 on his way to Spala with Gatty - they know all about it.

A funny from joe.ie - no doubt inspired by Jerry Flannery (who is a part owner in the site and would know these things).

Picture: Paul O'Connell flashing the guns at Lions training
14/05/2013 10:47 pm

Paul O’Connell was one of a number of the British and Irish Lions squad being put through their paces today and he’ll be keeping a hold of this beauty of a photo taken from their training camp in Wales

http://joe.ie/rugby/rugby-news/picture-paul-oconnell-flashing-the-guns-at-lions-training-0037804-1

And you do realise that POC has been on more Lions Tours than Gats & Warbs combined!

Oh I see, so POC is the guy in charge? He's calling the shots? He's selected the team, selected the captain and will determine the way they will play?

Or is he a mere squad member like everyone else who will execute orders as he is told to?!

Just because I am not claiming POC is not 8ft tall, spits fire from his eyeballs and consumes Aussies for breakfast doesn't mean I'm insulting him, he is a legend but he will be the first guy to admit he is just a squad player looking for the same opportunities as the other locks, infact I'd go as far to say that he's even an outsider for a test spot at present, but then of course how dare I be so disrespecfull to the all knowing POC.

Seriously get a grip

Nope. He is just not out of his comfort zone as you suggested he would be having done the whole crypto lark, Lions tourist and Lion captaincy.

..... and the rest are being taken out of their comfort zones with the chryo etc, so Warbs is more comfortable than anyone at present, POC, Hogg, Greyetc should already have fallen in line as they look to the welsh boys to lead them through the chryo and Gatlands ten dancies early on.

Secondly, Ireland have been going to Spala as recently as 2007 when Ireland gave it up because they reckoned it wasn't helping their injury situation.

From what I heard they went 3 times in 2005 and 2006. It's come on so much over the last 18 months let alone 6 years...

Also why your refering to that POC quote now when you clearly were arguing for him doing what he wants and not what he's told I'm not sure. He is a squad member, his coaching staff have selected him, he will do what is expected of him and what he's told, he is in a training camp with 15 welshmen, 1 of which is his captain, if he doesn't fall in line, do what is instructed and give all he can to the team (including using his experience) then I'm sure he will either not feature or will fly home early.

I for one expect POc to be the ultimate team player, offer his advice when asked for and do what he's told, I think you just need to stop being a little precious of him, he is after all been a bit lucky to travel, is a bit of a gamble, and is in a 5 way dogfight for the test shirt with superior athletes and guys on better form.

Bluesman,

Do you think Warburton should be Wales captain?

warbs should not be capt of wales or the lions

when his side needed him he couldn't take on the reins due to his inability to perform and be skipper, he was correctly passed over for gethin v england and he should have likewise been overlooked by gats....but gats picked him for wales and backs him again.

this tour will make or break his career in my view; after his perf at rwc he needs a clear success

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Sin é wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Sin é wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:.

What Warburton does have right now is the entire 22 on side, most of which are Welsh boys uninvolved in any finals, and the rest are being taken out of their comfort zones with the chryo etc, so Warbs is more comfortable than anyone at present, POC, Hogg, Greyetc should already have fallen in line as they look to the welsh boys to lead them through the chryo and Gatlands tendancies early on.

For the record, David Wallace got his first Lions call-up in Copenhagan in 2001 on his way to Spala with Gatty - they know all about it.

A funny from joe.ie - no doubt inspired by Jerry Flannery (who is a part owner in the site and would know these things).

Picture: Paul O'Connell flashing the guns at Lions training
14/05/2013 10:47 pm

Paul O’Connell was one of a number of the British and Irish Lions squad being put through their paces today and he’ll be keeping a hold of this beauty of a photo taken from their training camp in Wales

http://joe.ie/rugby/rugby-news/picture-paul-oconnell-flashing-the-guns-at-lions-training-0037804-1

And you do realise that POC has been on more Lions Tours than Gats & Warbs combined!

Oh I see, so POC is the guy in charge? He's calling the shots? He's selected the team, selected the captain and will determine the way they will play?

Or is he a mere squad member like everyone else who will execute orders as he is told to?!

Just because I am not claiming POC is not 8ft tall, spits fire from his eyeballs and consumes Aussies for breakfast doesn't mean I'm insulting him, he is a legend but he will be the first guy to admit he is just a squad player looking for the same opportunities as the other locks, infact I'd go as far to say that he's even an outsider for a test spot at present, but then of course how dare I be so disrespecfull to the all knowing POC.

Seriously get a grip

Nope. He is just not out of his comfort zone as you suggested he would be having done the whole crypto lark, Lions tourist and Lion captaincy.

..... and the rest are being taken out of their comfort zones with the chryo etc, so Warbs is more comfortable than anyone at present, POC, Hogg, Greyetc should already have fallen in line as they look to the welsh boys to lead them through the chryo and Gatlands ten dancies early on.

Secondly, Ireland have been going to Spala as recently as 2007 when Ireland gave it up because they reckoned it wasn't helping their injury situation.

From what I heard they went 3 times in 2005 and 2006. It's come on so much over the last 18 months let alone 6 years...

Also why your refering to that POC quote now when you clearly were arguing for him doing what he wants and not what he's told I'm not sure. He is a squad member, his coaching staff have selected him, he will do what is expected of him and what he's told, he is in a training camp with 15 welshmen, 1 of which is his captain, if he doesn't fall in line, do what is instructed and give all he can to the team (including using his experience) then I'm sure he will either not feature or will fly home early.

I for one expect POc to be the ultimate team player, offer his advice when asked for and do what he's told, I think you just need to stop being a little precious of him, he is after all been a bit lucky to travel, is a bit of a gamble, and is in a 5 way dogfight for the test shirt with superior athletes and guys on better form.

I was responding to this part of your post - see below the quoted bit (you can check above again). You were claiming that everyone bar Warbs & Gatty would be out of their depth (i.e., POC). Thats a laughable claim about someone who is on his 3rd Tour, having captained one of them. Most Irish people know (and especially Gatland) that he is the ultimate team player who inspires all around him to do greater things. Martyn Williams among others has said he is the best captain he has played under (and he has played under a few). Your efforts to big up Warbs is laughable by putting down someone like POC. This tour is doomed to failure if this Welsh way of having to keep everyone 'in line' is how its going to operate.

As for Spala - its blamed for Ireland's poor performance at the 2007 world cup - they were there just before it - they were all knackered when they eventually got to the world cup. Mind you, I think Munster reaped the benefits of it towards the end of the season - they went on to win the Heineken Cup. Anyway, there is no need for Irish people to go to Spala anymore - there is one in Ireland and injured players use it so your point about only the Welsh would know about this is just funny.

thebluesmancometh wrote:
What Warburton does have right now is the entire 22 on side, most of which are Welsh boys uninvolved in any finals, and the rest are being taken out of their comfort zones with the chryo etc, so Warbs is more comfortable than anyone at present, POC, Hogg, Greyetc should already have fallen in line as they look to the welsh boys to lead them through the chryo and Gatlands tendancies early on.

The importan thing for management and captain to do from the off is make everyone feel as if they have a chance of making the first test.

In 05 SCW publiclaly said anyone involved in the midweek games wouldn't then play in the saturday test match which was complete and utter botox.

Gatland has said that the team against the Baa Baas will be in pole position which he shouldn't have done or at least backed it up with something along the lines that it doesn't mean players can't force their way into test selection etc.

They (the management) also need to make sure that the squad stick together as whole and not split up early as in 05 into midweek and test match squads.

In 09 you heard and felt the passion with which Gerald Davies spoke about what being a Lion meant and that had an affect on how the tour was formed, Irvine is of the same ilk and era as Gerald so hopefully he (and experienced players) can help instill the Lions pride and make sure there is no divide.

Yes there is a large Welsh contingent but if cliches are being formed then I would hope someone like Adam Jones (or even Jinks) would tell them to get a grip and mix with the other tourists and enjoy the whole experience.

It might have been good PR to hold the first training sessions in Ireland and then moved to the Vale. It would only be a symbolic thing - just a swapping around of training bases - but it would have meant no extra ammunition for those who are hell-bent on seeing some kind of Welsh Lions takeover plot. I was actually surprised / impressed that there wasn't a thread here complaining about the choice of training venue. (Maybe there is one and I've missed it.)

Give it time, Luckless, give it time!

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:It might have been good PR to hold the first training sessions in Ireland and then moved to the Vale. It would only be a symbolic thing - just a swapping around of training bases - but it would have meant no extra ammunition for those who are hell-bent on seeing some kind of Welsh Lions takeover plot. I was actually surprised / impressed that there wasn't a thread here complaining about the choice of training venue. (Maybe there is one and I've missed it.)

Then the Heineken Cup final here would also have distracted from their visit. I'd imagine it was left in Wales because there would have been too few Irish players involved with Amlin & Pro 12 involvement. Also the attention they would get in Wales would be far greater whereas in Ireland next week they will be left to their own devices to prepare. It will be interesting to see if they do the 'Have a Lion' for dinner thingy over here! Mike Phillips would be good crack I'd say.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:It might have been good PR to hold the first training sessions in Ireland and then moved to the Vale. It would only be a symbolic thing - just a swapping around of training bases - but it would have meant no extra ammunition for those who are hell-bent on seeing some kind of Welsh Lions takeover plot. I was actually surprised / impressed that there wasn't a thread here complaining about the choice of training venue. (Maybe there is one and I've missed it.)

You rang m'lord ....

red_stag wrote:Bluesman,

Do you think Warburton should be Wales captain?

Last summer in Aus I wouldn't have had him in the squad let alone captain, he was injured. In the AI's he had played no rugby and he may have made my squad but definately not have started, and the first games of the 6N saw him with a bit of gametime and actually doing some things right, I wouldve started him at 6 and the better Tipuric at 7.

So no over the last year I wouldn't have had him as captain, as he wouldn't have been my lions choice of captain.

Do you think he should have been captain for the 6 Nations this year?

Do you think Wales would have still won the title if he was captain.

I think Wales coaching team managed the situation well and managed to come back from a defeat at home in opening game to finish as champions. Proof is in the pudding and all that. Just find it weird that he can now be a Lions captain.

"You were claiming that everyone bar Warbs & Gatty would be out of their depth (i.e., POC). Thats a laughable claim about someone who is on his 3rd Tour, having captained one of them. Most Irish people know (and especially Gatland) that he is the ultimate team player who inspires all around him to do greater things. Martyn Williams among others has said he is the best captain he has played under (and he has played under a few). Your efforts to big up Warbs is laughable by putting down someone like POC. This tour is doomed to failure if this Welsh way of having to keep everyone 'in line' is how its going to operate. "

I'm not sure wether your not getting the point or intentionally misunderstanding what I'm saying...

Firstly I never claimed Warbs and Gats were the only ones not out of their depth, infact I never mentioned depth at all, I said POC and co would be out of their comfort zones, essentially training with the Welsh squad, and coaching team, in the Vale using techniques he wouldn't have come across.

I am making no efforts to big up Warburton, I am merely trying to select positives from a poor selection, and I am in no way putting down POC (I have used the word 'legend' numerous times) I am merely stating a fact that POC is not the 8ft monster genius you claim, he is a squad member, 1/37th of the playing staff and nothing more. He will not go against his captain and coach and 'do what he wants' despite the gameplan as you claim, he will fall in line, he will take orders from his coach and captain and he will do as he is told, he will also aid the gameplan in every way he can!!

Now that comment about the 'welsh way' is where you lose credit with me, your clearly unhappy that your god POC is a part of a group with a large Welsh influence, your clearly unhappy at the FACT that POC will be led by Warburton, and you have a clear anti welsh tint to your writing.

Which makes me feel sorry for you, trust me POC is big and respectfull enough to know his place, he will give everything to the tour and will be a great tour member, but he knows it isn't his tour.

PS I'm taller than your god stop being so precious

This tour is going to make 2005 seem like a roaring success.

So many mistakes made already. I reckon as well as a whitewash they'll lose some midweek games too.

red_stag wrote:Do you think he should have been captain for the 6 Nations this year?

Do you think Wales would have still won the title if he was captain.

I think Wales coaching team managed the situation well and managed to come back from a defeat at home in opening game to finish as champions. Proof is in the pudding and all that. Just find it weird that he can now be a Lions captain.

No he wsouldn't have been my captain this 6N, but he was and until injury and the last game was captain who led in France.

I think Rob Howley was the reason for any Wales poor form last summer in Aus, selecting unfit and injured players to tour and start, then again in the AI's, and finally the first 40 minutes V Ireland were the acid test of the players, 8 losses on the bounce, Jenkins, Warburton, Evans, Roberts all unfit, no fit locks or 6 and a new 10, that 2nd half gave them the first sight of confidence they had seen in a long while (despite Howley not because of him) and from then on played for each other, not the coach. Warburton had to have had some part in Wales transformation, he must have been involved in the turnaround, and for that I would give him a small amount of credit.

However he is one of Gatlands favourites, and he is clearly earmarked for long term captaincy and greatness by Gatland, maybe he's right, and maybe these are just the stumblings of a 24 yr old club, country and lions captain soon to go down in history as the youngest succesfull captain ever, and he'll go on to lead Wales to 6N and world cup success?

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:This tour is going to make 2005 seem like a roaring success.

So many mistakes made already. I reckon as well as a whitewash they'll lose some midweek games too.

I know it'll take you ages, but could you list these mistakes? And number them too, seeing as there are 'so many'?

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:This tour is going to make 2005 seem like a roaring success.

So many mistakes made already. I reckon as well as a whitewash they'll lose some midweek games too.

I know it'll take you ages, but could you list these mistakes? And number them too, seeing as there are 'so many'?

1. Being called the lions

2. touring foreign countries

3. Not taking Cyzil

4. Playing in red...



He could go on forever!

Three points:

Point One: The tour will belong to the side (Lions or Australia) that win it.
Point Two:The tour will belong to the player or players who have the greatest influence overall in the three tests. Nobody knows who that will be yet.... but history will suggest one or two will go down as the heros.
Point Three: Paul O'Connell is not Captain. Neither will he be "led". He's too old for that Schmaltz. He'll play his game (if chosen to play) and he'll step back when Warburton needs to decide is it a kick at goal or to a corner (if chosen to play). Easy. Neither player will step on each other's toes.