Lions Squad Bonding

First topic message reminder :

There are a couple of great articles on the BBC website about how previous Lions squads have gone about building a real sense of unity before flying off on tour:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/22500959

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/22528441

What are your feelings on the subject? Would you recommend anything that hasn't been suggested?

[quote="Sin é"]

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:It will be interesting to see if they do the 'Have a Lion' for dinner thingy over here! Mike Phillips would be good crack I'd say.

According to the official app, they are doing it in Ireland as well.

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:This tour is going to make 2005 seem like a roaring success.

So many mistakes made already. I reckon as well as a whitewash they'll lose some midweek games too.

I know it'll take you ages, but could you list these mistakes? And number them too, seeing as there are 'so many'?

1. Being called the lions

2. touring foreign countries

3. Not taking Cyzil

4. Playing in red...



He could go on forever!

I'm just not getting hopelessly carried away like some. I guess it helps that I'm not really that big a fan of the Lions. Reading a lot of the posts on here it does seem that some folk only want their own players to do well and some even want players from other home nations to get injured.

If the players' bonding goes anything like 606v2 'fan bonding' they may as well stay home. That's not a bad idea actually. Let the players have a rest or tour with their national sides.

You're right the list will take too long to compile. It starts and ends with Gatts though

SecretFly wrote:Three points:

Point One: The tour will belong to the side (Lions or Australia) that win it.
Point Two:The tour will belong to the player or players who have the greatest influence overall in the three tests. Nobody knows who that will be yet.... but history will suggest one or two will go down as the heros.
Point Three: Paul O'Connell is not Captain. Neither will he be "led". He's too old for that Schmaltz. He'll play his game (if chosen to play) and he'll step back when Warburton needs to decide is it a kick at goal or to a corner (if chosen to play). Easy. Neither player will step on each other's toes.

Agree partly, but POC will be led, he will follow his captain out onto the field, he will listen during huddles, and he will get barked at now and then by Warbs, coaches and other players. Where do we all seem to be getting the notion that everyone around POC will just bow to his grace and let him be to do what he wants, rugby doesn't work like that, I've seen no mark coaches bollock ex lions, I have seen youngsters try to pep former captains up, and keep them playing to above their physical capacity, it's quite simple, if at any point any player considers themselves in any sort of position on the field where it isn't all about the team they are officially useless to the team, I'm just glad POC is far more respectfull, real and humble than some of his adoring fans!

5. Chyro

How about listing some of these 'many' mistakes, then - say the half-dozen biggest ones. That shouldn't be too difficult.

I really don't want to have to conclude you're talking rubbish.

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:This tour is going to make 2005 seem like a roaring success.

So many mistakes made already. I reckon as well as a whitewash they'll lose some midweek games too.

I know it'll take you ages, but could you list these mistakes? And number them too, seeing as there are 'so many'?

1. Being called the lions

2. touring foreign countries

3. Not taking Cyzil

4. Playing in red...



He could go on forever!

I'm just not getting hopelessly carried away like some. I guess it helps that I'm not really that big a fan of the Lions. Reading a lot of the posts on here it does seem that some folk only want their own players to do well and some even want players from other home nations to get injured.

If the players' bonding goes anything like 606v2 'fan bonding' they may as well stay home. That's not a bad idea actually. Let the players have a rest or tour with their national sides.

You're right the list will take too long to compile. It starts and ends with Gatts though

I was thinking about posting something similar - not the "stay at home" bit though. We need tourists.

The high dollar is killing this country!

Linebreaker wrote:

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:This tour is going to make 2005 seem like a roaring success.

So many mistakes made already. I reckon as well as a whitewash they'll lose some midweek games too.

I know it'll take you ages, but could you list these mistakes? And number them too, seeing as there are 'so many'?

1. Being called the lions

2. touring foreign countries

3. Not taking Cyzil

4. Playing in red...



He could go on forever!

I'm just not getting hopelessly carried away like some. I guess it helps that I'm not really that big a fan of the Lions. Reading a lot of the posts on here it does seem that some folk only want their own players to do well and some even want players from other home nations to get injured.

If the players' bonding goes anything like 606v2 'fan bonding' they may as well stay home. That's not a bad idea actually. Let the players have a rest or tour with their national sides.

You're right the list will take too long to compile. It starts and ends with Gatts though

I was thinking about posting something similar - not the "stay at home" bit though. We need tourists.

The high dollar is killing this country!

mmm... the research and costs I'm incurring tend to back that up

thebluesmancometh wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Three points:

Point One: The tour will belong to the side (Lions or Australia) that win it.
Point Two:The tour will belong to the player or players who have the greatest influence overall in the three tests. Nobody knows who that will be yet.... but history will suggest one or two will go down as the heros.
Point Three: Paul O'Connell is not Captain. Neither will he be "led". He's too old for that Schmaltz. He'll play his game (if chosen to play) and he'll step back when Warburton needs to decide is it a kick at goal or to a corner (if chosen to play). Easy. Neither player will step on each other's toes.

Agree partly, but POC will be led, he will follow his captain out onto the field, he will listen during huddles, and he will get barked at now and then by Warbs, coaches and other players. Where do we all seem to be getting the notion that everyone around POC will just bow to his grace and let him be to do what he wants, rugby doesn't work like that, I've seen no mark coaches bollock ex lions, I have seen youngsters try to pep former captains up, and keep them playing to above their physical capacity, it's quite simple, if at any point any player considers themselves in any sort of position on the field where it isn't all about the team they are officially useless to the team, I'm just glad POC is far more respectfull, real and humble than some of his adoring fans!

You agree and disagree with your own comments though. Paul O'Connell is no God...he's a player. He knows what he can do, he knows what he's limited at doing. He knows the whole deal. Now, does he know enough to know he'll never be shouted at on a field and goaded to do one thing and not another? Of course not. Your view is much too simplified about what context will operate in the Lions or any other side.

Paul O'Connell is the first to say what leadership is...and I think even you would agree he knows what he's talking about from experience. He says it's not all it's pepped up to be as to have a functioning side, you need leaders everywhere. The more of them you have in a side, the more likely it is that the team will know what it's about rather than waiting for instructions from the on-field boss.

Every player with enough experience knows and expects to take a grilling from team-mates during a game. But THAT works two ways. Warburton will expect to get things in his ear too. If he doesn't expect them, he'll be severely surpised when they happen, because they will. At times O'Connell will be compelled to correct something or other and at times Warburton will be directed here and there too. That's a game in motion...with leaders all over, certainly in a Lions context.

So O'Connell isn't going to walk off in a sulk if Warburton shouts a direction at him...but neither will he be short of organising the battle either if it comes down to him..and he'll expect Warburton to fall in behind and not walk off in a sulk either

The best words spoken about Leadership in a Lions context actually came from O'Driscoll. He was asked would he be giving Warburton advice. He said bluntly enough, well Warburton hasn't contacted him looking for any. Which wasn't intended as a seeming insult but letting the interviewer know Warburton is Captain for a reason...because he has the aptitude to be so.
He was certain there would be times when he might be in a position to offer advice. On such occasions he said there would be occasions when it is either a good idea and a good time to offer advice or a bad idea and an inappropriate time to do so. Reading between the lines, he knows exactly the complexity of being a Captain and when you can offer advice and when it might be seen to undermine authority.

But no, bluesman, Paulie won't be saying 'yes, sir' or 'no, sir' to his Captain. It doesn't work like that either.

SecretFly wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Three points:

Point One: The tour will belong to the side (Lions or Australia) that win it.
Point Two:The tour will belong to the player or players who have the greatest influence overall in the three tests. Nobody knows who that will be yet.... but history will suggest one or two will go down as the heros.
Point Three: Paul O'Connell is not Captain. Neither will he be "led". He's too old for that Schmaltz. He'll play his game (if chosen to play) and he'll step back when Warburton needs to decide is it a kick at goal or to a corner (if chosen to play). Easy. Neither player will step on each other's toes.

Agree partly, but POC will be led, he will follow his captain out onto the field, he will listen during huddles, and he will get barked at now and then by Warbs, coaches and other players. Where do we all seem to be getting the notion that everyone around POC will just bow to his grace and let him be to do what he wants, rugby doesn't work like that, I've seen no mark coaches bollock ex lions, I have seen youngsters try to pep former captains up, and keep them playing to above their physical capacity, it's quite simple, if at any point any player considers themselves in any sort of position on the field where it isn't all about the team they are officially useless to the team, I'm just glad POC is far more respectfull, real and humble than some of his adoring fans!

You agree and disagree with your own comments though. Paul O'Connell is no God...he's a player. He knows what he can do, he knows what he's limited at doing. He knows the whole deal. Now, does he know enough to know he'll never be shouted at on a field and goaded to do one thing and not another? Of course not. Your view is much too simplified about what context will operate in the Lions or any other side.

Paul O'Connell is the first to say what leadership is...and I think even you would agree he knows what he's talking about from experience. He says it's not all it's pepped up to be as to have a functioning side, you need leaders everywhere. The more of them you have in a side, the more likely it is that the team will know what it's about rather than waiting for instructions from the on-field boss.

Every player with enough experience knows and expects to take a grilling from team-mates during a game. But THAT works two ways. Warburton will expect to get things in his ear too. If he doesn't expect them, he'll be severely surpised when they happen, because they will. At times O'Connell will be compelled to correct something or other and at times Warburton will be directed here and there too. That's a game in motion...with leaders all over, certainly in a Lions context.

So O'Connell isn't going to walk off in a sulk if Warburton shouts a direction at him...but neither will he be short of organising the battle either if it comes down to him..and he'll expect Warburton to fall in behind and not walk off in a sulk either

The best words spoken about Leadership in a Lions context actually came from O'Driscoll. He was asked would he be giving Warburton advice. He said bluntly enough, well Warburton hasn't contacted him looking for any. Which wasn't intended as a seeming insult but letting the interviewer know Warburton is Captain for a reason...because he has the aptitude to be so.
He was certain there would be times when he might be in a position to offer advice. On such occasions he said there would be occasions when it is either a good idea and a good time to offer advice or a bad idea and an inappropriate time to do so. Reading between the lines, he knows exactly the complexity of being a Captain and when you can offer advice and when it might be seen to undermine authority.

But no, bluesman, Paulie won't be saying 'yes, sir' or 'no, sir' to his Captain. It doesn't work like that either.

Then you agree with me that POC will fall in line, apply the gameplan when and how he is told to, and will be a squad mmeber!!! Why did you continually state he will do what he wants, he won't follow orders etc?

Of course all players will get a bollocking/talking to/arm around them during games, its the nature of the beast, but then I wasn't the one being precious about Warburton and claiming he would do whatever he wants when he wants to was I?

And with regards to leadership BOD is hardly an inspiration, POC took control over him for Ireland one time too many for him to ever be an effective leader IMHO, part of the reaosn the 05 tour struggled.

Sadly I see that mistake being made again, and a lions 1st timer, young 24 yr old, out of form, long term injured guy has been selected to lead the most talented and most difficult squad on the planet.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Sadly I see that mistake being made again, and a lions 1st timer, young 24 yr old, out of form, long term injured guy has been selected to lead the most talented and most difficult squad on the planet.

Yet you still think the Lions will win 3-0? Odd.

I wouldn't agree that the Lions are the most talented squad on the planet. Not this squad anyway.

And yet you say on the other thread that the Lions will still affect a 3-0 whitewash?

I fear you are playing mind games now, blues.

Or placing all your chips in one basket. Fair enough.

Linebreaker wrote:And yet you say on the other thread that the Lions will still affect a 3-0 whitewash?

I fear you are playing mind games now, blues.

Or placing all your chips in one basket. Fair enough.

I predict a 3-0 and the lions are certainly capable if they recreate 09's performance, however on the other thread we are discussing Aus, they have many problems and weaknesses, it would be ill advised not to highlight concerns I have over the current lions squad.

IMHO the lions need an 80% performance to win the series, that will depend on...

How Warburton captains,

How key areas play,

How the weaker members hold up.

We are all worried about the 10 shirt, Sexton is key as Farell is poor, and Hogg has rarely played there. Likewise there are a number of recent injury returns / 3rd choice political choices.

Lydiate, Youngs, Stevens and Murray are immensely lucky to be touring, all are over hyped and ineffective due to form, size or injury.

POC Croft and BOD are all risks 2 are ageing and being held together by tape, and Croft has just returned from injury.

Then theres Farell who's just imploded, and the captain has had one good game in 12 months.

So I have concerns about the squad, but the concerns I have may become void if the group bonds well, and unites to pull in the same direction.

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Then you agree with me that POC will fall in line, apply the gameplan when and how he is told to, and will be a squad mmeber!!! Why did you continually state he will do what he wants, he won't follow orders etc?

Of course all players will get a bollocking/talking to/arm around them during games, its the nature of the beast, but then I wasn't the one being precious about Warburton and claiming he would do whatever he wants when he wants to was I?

And with regards to leadership BOD is hardly an inspiration, POC took control over him for Ireland one time too many for him to ever be an effective leader IMHO, part of the reaosn the 05 tour struggled.

Sadly I see that mistake being made again, and a lions 1st timer, young 24 yr old, out of form, long term injured guy has been selected to lead the most talented and most difficult squad on the planet.

Stop circumnavigating the globe, bluesman. I didn't CONTINUALLY say O'Connell won't follow orders. I said ORDERS will not be the order of the day. You militarise the campaign lingo if you like.

No, O'Connell will not 'fall into line'.
He will not apply the gameplan 'when told to do so'.
He will not 'follow orders'.

He'll play in a team where a gameplan will be adopted. He'll give as much to the team effort as he can within the context of it being a team game. He'll allow himself to be organised and guided and he'll do his bit of organising and guiding too within an 80 minute period.

You're so annoyed with Sin é's perceived preciousness about his 'God', so vexed by the constant criticism of Warburton on this and other threads that you want to adopt this image of Paul O'Connell as subservient beast of burden, doing what he is bloody well ordered to do by the young Caesar. Nope...won't work... and won't happen.

As for your O'Driscoll comments. I'll leave them with you. You're taller than him too, aren't you.

No, O'Connell will not 'fall into line'.
He will not apply the gameplan 'when told to do so'.
He will not 'follow orders'.

We'll see We both know Gatland is a disciplinarian, he has his squad, he has his gameplan and he will expect total compliance from his squad members.

You claim I dislike Warburton criticism despite me being his biggest critic over the last 12 months.

I'm not the one claiming any player is above the squad, there are 37 guys there who will all do what they are told, they will execute Gatlands gameplan and they will execute it to the best of their abilities.

And please, the missus is taller than BOD, infact she has a photo where her friends is lifting him above her head

I'm glad you two sorted things out........... eventually.

OK Fly... your break!

thebluesmancometh wrote:No, O'Connell will not 'fall into line'.
He will not apply the gameplan 'when told to do so'.
He will not 'follow orders'.

We'll see We both know Gatland is a disciplinarian, he has his squad, he has his gameplan and he will expect total compliance from his squad members.

You claim I dislike Warburton criticism despite me being his biggest critic over the last 12 months.

I'm not the one claiming any player is above the squad, there are 37 guys there who will all do what they are told, they will execute Gatlands gameplan and they will execute it to the best of their abilities.

And please, the missus is taller than BOD, infact she has a photo where her friends is lifting him above her head

So Gatland is the new Captain? Always knew he'd do a coup on it but thought he's at least wait until they arrived in Australia.

We were talking about "Yes, sir's" and "please sir, can I go to the toilet????" in the context of the Capt'n...not the Coach.

Yep, I'm saying Sin é got you hot under the collar and so a ball and chain convict O'Connell was adopted by you as a fight back.

What else? Emm...oh yeah, you're taller than people and so is your wife. A very handy thing to be when claiming superiority both physically and mentally ....em..... did i forget something? Oh yeah ...

And this one's for you, Linebreaker. NOW you know to stay well away from ever creating the Unifying force of a Southern Hempisphere Lions gig!

Sure I will, Fly.






hey Blues, can you chuck another scoop of water on the coals please?
This Spala sauna is cooling down too much for my liking!

Or do I have to get Warbs' permission first after I've filled in the Requisition Form 4B?

[quote="thebluesmancometh"]"You were claiming that everyone bar Warbs & Gatty would be out of their depth (i.e., POC). Thats a laughable claim about someone who is on his 3rd Tour, having captained one of them. Most Irish people know (and especially Gatland) that he is the ultimate team player who inspires all around him to do greater things. Martyn Williams among others has said he is the best captain he has played under (and he has played under a few). Your efforts to big up Warbs is laughable by putting down someone like POC. This tour is doomed to failure if this Welsh way of having to keep everyone 'in line' is how its going to operate. "

I'm not sure wether your not getting the point or intentionally misunderstanding what I'm saying...

Firstly I never claimed Warbs and Gats were the only ones not out of their depth, infact I never mentioned depth at all, I said POC and co would be out of their comfort zones, essentially training with the Welsh squad, and coaching team, in the Vale using techniques he wouldn't have come across.

1) Yep, you did. The Welsh lads were going to lead the way. Give me a break.
2) I disagreed with you that Paul O'Connell would be 'out of his comfort' zone already.

quote sin é: Nope. He is just not out of his comfort zone as you suggested he would be having done the whole crypto lark, Lions tourist and Lion captaincy.

3) You seem to have forgotten that Gatland was on the last Lions Tour to SA as forwards coach, so I'm sure POC would have come across most of Gat's techniques then.

I am making no efforts to big up Warburton, I am merely trying to select positives from a poor selection, and I am in no way putting down POC (I have used the word 'legend' numerous times) I am merely stating a fact that POC is not the 8ft monster genius you claim, he is a squad member, 1/37th of the playing staff and nothing more. He will not go against his captain and coach and 'do what he wants' despite the gameplan as you claim, he will fall in line, he will take orders from his coach and captain and he will do as he is told, he will also aid the gameplan in every way he can!!

I think Warbs is a poor selection as captain bearing in mind his history (very young, red cards at world cups, loosing captaincy etc). The only reason why he is captain is because Gats is a complete control freak and he wouldn't be challenged by Warbs. Gats ego is far to large to be able to accommodate POC or BOD as his captain. Poor old Gats has never gotten over been shown the door by Ireland.

Now that comment about the 'welsh way' is where you lose credit with me, your clearly unhappy that your god POC is a part of a group with a large Welsh influence, your clearly unhappy at the FACT that POC will be led by Warburton, and you have a clear anti welsh tint to your writing.

Which makes me feel sorry for you, trust me POC is big and respectfull enough to know his place, he will give everything to the tour and will be a great tour member, but he knows it isn't his tour.

PS I'm taller than your god stop being so precious

The Welsh way/Gat's regime seems to me to be far too authoritarian to succeed in something like a Lions Tour. Similar problems with Woodward & Henry and those tours also failed. The Welsh inferiority complex will out even with several grand slam wins. As for my anti-Welsh writing? I think you are a bit paranoid here and probably reflects more on you than me ... no Irish coach has come out with a statement before a match that the 'Welsh hate the Irish'.

The only person you should feel sorry for is poor old Warbs. He is up against it.

edit: just on Gats & Ireland. Gats would be terrified of a strong captain - Keith Wood (who was Ireland's captain then) didn't rate him good enough and one of the main reasons Ireland didn't renew his contract.

Sin é wrote:
I think Warbs is a poor selection as captain bearing in mind his history (very young, red cards at world cups, loosing captaincy etc). The only reason why he is captain is because Gats is a complete control freak and he wouldn't be challenged by Warbs. Gats ego is far to large to be able to accommodate POC or BOD as his captain. Poor old Gats has never gotten over been shown the door by Ireland.

Rubbish. If that was the case, there wouldn't be any Irish touring. It wasn't due to POC or BOD him getting the sack anyway, in fact Cement Head is the reason BOD got capped in the first place, isn't he?

Sin é wrote:
no Irish coach has come out with a statement before a match that the 'Welsh hate the Irish'.

Neither has any Welsh one. Please at least be accurate with your quotes.

Risca Rev wrote:

Sin é wrote:
I think Warbs is a poor selection as captain bearing in mind his history (very young, red cards at world cups, loosing captaincy etc). The only reason why he is captain is because Gats is a complete control freak and he wouldn't be challenged by Warbs. Gats ego is far to large to be able to accommodate POC or BOD as his captain. Poor old Gats has never gotten over been shown the door by Ireland.

Rubbish. If that was the case, there wouldn't be any Irish touring. It wasn't due to POC or BOD him getting the sack anyway, in fact Cement Head is the reason BOD got capped in the first place, isn't he?

Sin é wrote:
no Irish coach has come out with a statement before a match that the 'Welsh hate the Irish'.

Neither has any Welsh one. Please at least be accurate with your quotes.

I'd have thought BOD got capped because of his talent!

Apologies - I was inaccurate - this is what the Welsh coach said - substitute 'dislike' for 'hate'

Gatland: ‘We’ve even talked about how, out of all the teams in the Six Nations, the Welsh players dislike the Irish players the most.’

Most examples of the quote say that he also said probably and he also explained the remark further, by saying that because of personal experiences when playing them.

However, if you still have a bee in your bonnet after four years then that's up to you. Considering that POC and BOD plus others have worked with Gatland since, I think it is fair to say it's water under the bridge and not even worth bringing up in the first place.

Risca Rev wrote:Most examples of the quote say that he also said probably and he also explained the remark further, by saying that because of personal experiences when playing them.

However, if you still have a bee in your bonnet after four years then that's up to you. Considering that POC and BOD plus others have worked with Gatland since, I think it is fair to say it's water under the bridge and not even worth bringing up in the first place.

It was still a really telling thing to mention, particularly just before a Lions tour that he knew he would be coaching on and that there were likely to be a lot of Irish & Welsh players on.

Anyway, judging from the constant warfare here, I'd say that the Welsh dislike the English more than anyone, so he got that wrong.

Sin é wrote:

Risca Rev wrote:Most examples of the quote say that he also said probably and he also explained the remark further, by saying that because of personal experiences when playing them.

However, if you still have a bee in your bonnet after four years then that's up to you. Considering that POC and BOD plus others have worked with Gatland since, I think it is fair to say it's water under the bridge and not even worth bringing up in the first place.

It was still a really telling thing to mention, particularly just before a Lions tour that he knew he would be coaching on and that there were likely to be a lot of Irish & Welsh players on.

Anyway, judging from the constant warfare here, I'd say that the Welsh dislike the English more than anyone, so he got that wrong.

Not sure. It's a lot more Wales v Scotland nowadays

Risca Rev wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Risca Rev wrote:Most examples of the quote say that he also said probably and he also explained the remark further, by saying that because of personal experiences when playing them.

However, if you still have a bee in your bonnet after four years then that's up to you. Considering that POC and BOD plus others have worked with Gatland since, I think it is fair to say it's water under the bridge and not even worth bringing up in the first place.

It was still a really telling thing to mention, particularly just before a Lions tour that he knew he would be coaching on and that there were likely to be a lot of Irish & Welsh players on.

Anyway, judging from the constant warfare here, I'd say that the Welsh dislike the English more than anyone, so he got that wrong.

Not sure. It's a lot more Wales v Scotland nowadays

That is because we always win the moral victories (regardless of score) and no-one likes that

WOW

So much goalpost moving, backtracking and side shifting...

When exactly did I say POC would bow at the knees of Warbs? Or did I say POC was just another tourist who would impliment the gameplan selected by the coaching staff and people got precious?

Please highlight the quote where I mentioned anything like We were talking about "Yes, sir's" and "please sir, can I go to the toilet????"


Yep, I'm saying Sin é got you hot under the collar and so a ball and chain convict O'Connell was adopted by you as a fight back. Wink
What exactly was I hot under the collar about? agreeing on not selecting Warbs as captain? Or disagreeing on the preciousness of POC?

I merely mentioned POC can't be god, because I am a bigger guy than he


I think a lot of people are struggling with the squad currently being Wales +extras, training at Wales camp, employing Wales techniques from what is essentially the Welsh coaching set up. Currently the Welsh boys will have to lead the way, they are 75% of the squad, with the coaching team in Wales, if they do not lead the way the squad has problems.

So who exactly is in a more comfortable position in the Wales setup, in Wales employing Welsh techniques employed by the Welsh coaching set up, the Welsh captain or POC.

Also please state one quote where Ive slated POC, don't let facts get in the way of emotions though guys

thebluesmancometh wrote:Currently the Welsh boys will have to lead the way, they are 75% of the squad, with the coaching team in Wales, if they do not lead the way the squad has problems.

How is do you get 15 out of 37 to equal 75%?

thebluesmancometh wrote:WOW

So much goalpost moving, backtracking and side shifting...

When exactly did I say POC would bow at the knees of Warbs? Or did I say POC was just another tourist who would impliment the gameplan selected by the coaching staff and people got precious?

Please highlight the quote where I mentioned anything like We were talking about "Yes, sir's" and "please sir, can I go to the toilet????"


Yep, I'm saying Sin é got you hot under the collar and so a ball and chain convict O'Connell was adopted by you as a fight back. Wink
What exactly was I hot under the collar about? agreeing on not selecting Warbs as captain? Or disagreeing on the preciousness of POC?

I merely mentioned POC can't be god, because I am a bigger guy than he


I think a lot of people are struggling with the squad currently being Wales +extras, training at Wales camp, employing Wales techniques from what is essentially the Welsh coaching set up. Currently the Welsh boys will have to lead the way, they are 75% of the squad, with the coaching team in Wales, if they do not lead the way the squad has problems.

So who exactly is in a more comfortable position in the Wales setup, in Wales employing Welsh techniques employed by the Welsh coaching set up, the Welsh captain or POC.

Also please state one quote where Ive slated POC, don't let facts get in the way of emotions though guys

Me, sitting on my couch, with a beer in one hand and a blond in the other

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:Currently the Welsh boys will have to lead the way, they are 75% of the squad, with the coaching team in Wales, if they do not lead the way the squad has problems.

How is do you get 15 out of 37 to equal 75%?

YES cyzil bit...

Because my uneducated friend there are only 22 squad members training at present, or should I say 22 squad members on the bus to Dublin.

I guess none of the Welsh squad happen to be involved in any meaningful end of season games.

Someone had to say it...

Bluesman, the problem is your use of the phrase "fall in line". I know what you mean and im sure most others do, BUT, do you know many Irishman/women? Even if they agreed with you they would say fk off to that phrase!
POC will be a team player, same as everyone else. He will just have more to offer off the pitch than most of the others.
If there is something he disagrees with, he will speak up, but if it goes ahead anyway he will do his utmost to make it work.
POC would have been my choice as skipper, although I think he just feels lucky to be on the plane.

They're got a tough series coming up against the Asian Champs.

I bet if they don't score enough points they'll blame the beds being too hard and the hotel slippers a little too uncomfortable....

kingjohn7 wrote:Bluesman, the problem is your use of the phrase "fall in line". I know what you mean and im sure most others do, BUT, do you know many Irishman/women? Even if they agreed with you they would say fk off to that phrase!
POC will be a team player, same as everyone else. He will just have more to offer off the pitch than most of the others.
If there is something he disagrees with, he will speak up, but if it goes ahead anyway he will do his utmost to make it work.
POC would have been my choice as skipper, although I think he just feels lucky to be on the plane.

Aye I agree, but the phrase 'fall in line' is pretty apt to every squad member don't you think? Unity will be important and any player not 'towing the line' will be harmfull to that.
I live with an Irishwoman, and work in Leinster/Munster regions and know how precious they are about POC and BOD, but to claim he will do whatever pleases him and not get in line is a bit silly.

For the record POC was a risky pick to tour, he has had one good game against quins, and is not only an injury risk but ageing, I probably wouldn't have taken him, but he is one of the risks you could justify, and if I did select him wouldv'e made him captain too, or selected BOD as tour captain to take care of the media stuff without the worry of actually having to try to play

thebluesmancometh wrote:

So who exactly is in a more comfortable position in the Wales setup, in Wales employing Welsh techniques employed by the Welsh coaching set up, the Welsh captain or POC.

Also please state one quote where Ive slated POC, don't let facts get in the way of emotions though guys

Paul O'Connell has worked under Kidney, Gaffney, Eddie O'Sullivan, Clive Woodward, McGahan, McGeechan (& Gatland) & Rob Penney and you think he will have trouble adapting to the methods of the kiwi that coaches Wales

I'd be more worried about the Welsh crew being out of their comfort zone with Rowntree & Farrell. How many coaches has young Warbs had to adopt to in his career?

Sin é wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

So who exactly is in a more comfortable position in the Wales setup, in Wales employing Welsh techniques employed by the Welsh coaching set up, the Welsh captain or POC.

Also please state one quote where Ive slated POC, don't let facts get in the way of emotions though guys

Paul O'Connell has worked under Kidney, Gaffney, Eddie O'Sullivan, Clive Woodward, McGahan, McGeechan (& Gatland) & Rob Penney and you think he will have trouble adapting to the methods of the kiwi that coaches Wales

I'd be more worried about the Welsh crew being out of their comfort zone with Rowntree & Farrell. How many coaches has young Warbs had to adopt to in his career?

Considering Warbs was in the Vale (his home) being coached by the Welsh set up (his coaches) by a guy that selected him as captain (because he loves him) and surrounded by 75% of the squad being Wales players...

When was the last time POC was captained by a 24yr old? Again your getting precious, ignoring the facts, ignoring the rest of my questions and concentrating on the tiny little point that POC is experienced, nit to mention totally disregarding what I'm actually saying and just seeing red for some reason.



[/quote]

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:Currently the Welsh boys will have to lead the way, they are 75% of the squad, with the coaching team in Wales, if they do not lead the way the squad has problems.

How is do you get 15 out of 37 to equal 75%?

YES cyzil bit...

Because my uneducated friend there are only 22 squad members training at present, or should I say 22 squad members on the bus to Dublin.

Nah, you made a mistake and are just trying to get out of it.

You really an embarrassment to NH fans at the moment.

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:Currently the Welsh boys will have to lead the way, they are 75% of the squad, with the coaching team in Wales, if they do not lead the way the squad has problems.

How is do you get 15 out of 37 to equal 75%?

YES cyzil bit...

Because my uneducated friend there are only 22 squad members training at present, or should I say 22 squad members on the bus to Dublin.

Nah, you made a mistake and are just trying to get out of it.

You really an embarrassment to NH fans at the moment.

beep beep beep this cyzil is reversing...

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:Currently the Welsh boys will have to lead the way, they are 75% of the squad, with the coaching team in Wales, if they do not lead the way the squad has problems.

How is do you get 15 out of 37 to equal 75%?

YES cyzil bit...

Because my uneducated friend there are only 22 squad members training at present, or should I say 22 squad members on the bus to Dublin.

Nah, you made a mistake and are just trying to get out of it.

You really an embarrassment to NH fans at the moment.

beep beep beep this cyzil is reversing...

They really should start the Lions first test after the group stages of the Heineken Cup. Then it would be all Welsh. Except the one or two who play in France.

You make me want to support Aus

thebluesmancometh wrote:Aye I agree, but the phrase 'fall in line' is pretty apt to every squad member don't you think? Unity will be important and any player not 'towing the line' will be harmfull to that.
I live with an Irishwoman, and work in Leinster/Munster regions and know how precious they are about POC and BOD, but to claim he will do whatever pleases him and not get in line is a bit silly.

For the record POC was a risky pick to tour, he has had one good game against quins, and is not only an injury risk but ageing, I probably wouldn't have taken him, but he is one of the risks you could justify, and if I did select him wouldv'e made him captain too, or selected BOD as tour captain to take care of the media stuff without the worry of actually having to try to play

I don't think the 'fall in line' (authoritarian) approach necessary for the Welsh players will work on a Lions Tour for the other nations.

And for the record, my objection to your comments about POC are far more to do that you think he will need to be 'put in line' and hence my comments in my first post:

''Most Irish people know (and especially Gatland) that he is the ultimate team player who inspires all around him to do greater things. Martyn Williams among others has said he is the best captain he has played under (and he has played under a few). Your efforts to big up Warbs is laughable by putting down someone like POC. This tour is doomed to failure if this Welsh way of having to keep everyone 'in line' is how its going to operate.''

Furthermore, Brian O'Driscoll has been on a tour when he hasn't been captain and I doubt if POC felt the need to put him in line and BOD has captained Ireland and I doubt if he felt that POC should be put in line either.

I'd say the one Gatty really needed on this tour was Paul O'Connell (and hence him going down to the Quins & Clermont games) while sending Rowntree & Howley to check out Sexton in Dublin as they missed the 6Ns (or most of it). If POC wasn't that important, you'd think Rowntree as forwards coach would have been the one to go to Clermont having seen POC at the Quin's game.

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:Currently the Welsh boys will have to lead the way, they are 75% of the squad, with the coaching team in Wales, if they do not lead the way the squad has problems.

How is do you get 15 out of 37 to equal 75%?

YES cyzil bit...

Because my uneducated friend there are only 22 squad members training at present, or should I say 22 squad members on the bus to Dublin.

Nah, you made a mistake and are just trying to get out of it.

You really an embarrassment to NH fans at the moment.

beep beep beep this cyzil is reversing...

They really should start the Lions first test after the group stages of the Heineken Cup. Then it would be all Welsh. Except the one or two who play in France.

You make me want to support Aus

You claimed to be supporting Aus months ago though, so go ahead

Sin é wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:Aye I agree, but the phrase 'fall in line' is pretty apt to every squad member don't you think? Unity will be important and any player not 'towing the line' will be harmfull to that.
I live with an Irishwoman, and work in Leinster/Munster regions and know how precious they are about POC and BOD, but to claim he will do whatever pleases him and not get in line is a bit silly.

For the record POC was a risky pick to tour, he has had one good game against quins, and is not only an injury risk but ageing, I probably wouldn't have taken him, but he is one of the risks you could justify, and if I did select him wouldv'e made him captain too, or selected BOD as tour captain to take care of the media stuff without the worry of actually having to try to play

I don't think the 'fall in line' (authoritarian) approach necessary for the Welsh players will work on a Lions Tour for the other nations.

And for the record, my objection to your comments about POC are far more to do that you think he will need to be 'put in line' and hence my comments in my first post:

''Most Irish people know (and especially Gatland) that he is the ultimate team player who inspires all around him to do greater things. Martyn Williams among others has said he is the best captain he has played under (and he has played under a few). Your efforts to big up Warbs is laughable by putting down someone like POC. This tour is doomed to failure if this Welsh way of having to keep everyone 'in line' is how its going to operate.''

Furthermore, Brian O'Driscoll has been on a tour when he hasn't been captain and I doubt if POC felt the need to put him in line and BOD has captained Ireland and I doubt if he felt that POC should be put in line either.

I'd say the one Gatty really needed on this tour was Paul O'Connell (and hence him going down to the Quins & Clermont games) while sending Rowntree & Howley to check out Sexton in Dublin as they missed the 6Ns (or most of it). If POC wasn't that important, you'd think Rowntree as forwards coach would have been the one to go to Clermont having seen POC at the Quin's game.

So essentially you took exception with me saying that POC would 'fall in line' with the rest of the squad as a squad member, and you didn't like my accusation that he would follow a gameplan, and do everything he could to aid his captain??

So it's simply a misunderstanding that you got very precious very quickly about one of your legends, I did at no point say anything negative about POC, and at no point did I mention his role being subservient to Warburton, lets clear it up, every player will fall in line, every player is merely 1/37th of the squad, little more, but they will all tow the line, they will all fall in line with what is planned for the tour.

I notice you keep ignoring my comments about me not wanting Warbs as captain, or that I wouldve chosen POC, why is that?

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Sin é wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

So who exactly is in a more comfortable position in the Wales setup, in Wales employing Welsh techniques employed by the Welsh coaching set up, the Welsh captain or POC.

Also please state one quote where Ive slated POC, don't let facts get in the way of emotions though guys

Paul O'Connell has worked under Kidney, Gaffney, Eddie O'Sullivan, Clive Woodward, McGahan, McGeechan (& Gatland) & Rob Penney and you think he will have trouble adapting to the methods of the kiwi that coaches Wales

I'd be more worried about the Welsh crew being out of their comfort zone with Rowntree & Farrell. How many coaches has young Warbs had to adopt to in his career?

Considering Warbs was in the Vale (his home) being coached by the Welsh set up (his coaches) by a guy that selected him as captain (because he loves him) and surrounded by 75% of the squad being Wales players...

When was the last time POC was captained by a 24yr old? Again your getting precious, ignoring the facts, ignoring the rest of my questions and concentrating on the tiny little point that POC is experienced, nit to mention totally disregarding what I'm actually saying and just seeing red for some reason.

Since when has Rowntree (Forwards coach) & Farrell (Defence Coach) become part of the Welsh coaching team? The fitness coach is English by the way and the team manager is a Scot.

POC was probably captained by a 22 year old fairly recently for Munster (Peter O'Mahony) though I'm not sure what that has got to do with it.

Onya Sin!

So how do you counter that, blues?

thebluesmancometh wrote:So essentially you took exception with me saying that POC would 'fall in line' with the rest of the squad as a squad member, and you didn't like my accusation that he would follow a gameplan, and do everything he could to aid his captain??

So it's simply a misunderstanding that you got very precious very quickly about one of your legends, I did at no point say anything negative about POC, and at no point did I mention his role being subservient to Warburton, lets clear it up, every player will fall in line, every player is merely 1/37th of the squad, little more, but they will all tow the line, they will all fall in line with what is planned for the tour.

I notice you keep ignoring my comments about me not wanting Warbs as captain, or that I wouldve chosen POC, why is that?

I took exception to the claim that anyone would be made to have to fall in line. I think the one great attribute that the Irish bring to the Lions is that they are great team players (going back to the days of Willie John McBride). I've yet to hear of any Irish player being 'difficult' on a Lions tour or 'falling out of line'.

Sin é wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:So essentially you took exception with me saying that POC would 'fall in line' with the rest of the squad as a squad member, and you didn't like my accusation that he would follow a gameplan, and do everything he could to aid his captain??

So it's simply a misunderstanding that you got very precious very quickly about one of your legends, I did at no point say anything negative about POC, and at no point did I mention his role being subservient to Warburton, lets clear it up, every player will fall in line, every player is merely 1/37th of the squad, little more, but they will all tow the line, they will all fall in line with what is planned for the tour.

I notice you keep ignoring my comments about me not wanting Warbs as captain, or that I wouldve chosen POC, why is that?

I took exception to the claim that anyone would be made to have to fall in line. I think the one great attribute that the Irish bring to the Lions is that they are great team players (going back to the days of Willie John McBride). I've yet to hear of any Irish player being 'difficult' on a Lions tour or 'falling out of line'.

You don't fall out of line though, you either fall in line or you are difficult, I havn't claimed anything of any Irish player except total teamwork, why your obsessed with the term fall in line I do not know, from a coaching POV you want everyone to fall in line. Why is it your banging the POC, BOD and Irish drum still anyway?

Because you were bigging up 'the Welsh are running the show around here' by belittling everyone else.

You insinuated that POC & BOD might be a bit big for their boots by those comments (otherwise why even say that Warbs would get the better of them because he would be in his comfort zone and the non-Welsh would not be).

It would seem that in general, Irish people find it easy to mix with other people as they are outgoing by nature and hence make friends easily (and what you need on a tour like the Lions). I don't recall any Irish player suggesting that the Irish would need to mix with the other players on the 2009 tour even though there were a lot of them there. And it turned out to be a great tour apparently, so Warbs has a lot to live up to.


edit: you haven't explained how you came to the conclusion that Rowntree et al is Welsh?

Sin é wrote:Because you were bigging up 'the Welsh are running the show around here' by belittling everyone else.

You insinuated that POC & BOD might be a bit big for their boots by those comments (otherwise why even say that Warbs would get the better of them because he would be in his comfort zone and the non-Welsh would not be).

It would seem that in general, Irish people find it easy to mix with other people as they are outgoing by nature and hence make friends easily (and what you need on a tour like the Lions). I don't recall any Irish player suggesting that the Irish would need to mix with the other players on the 2009 tour even though there were a lot of them there. And it turned out to be a great tour apparently, so Warbs has a lot to live up to.


edit: you haven't explained how you came to the conclusion that Rowntree et al is Welsh?

Go back and re read the thread I have said nothing of the sort regarding Welsh players, Irish players POC or BOD!!!

There were a lot of Welsh on the last tour too, but I agree in part, whenever I travel the missus gets a crazy amount of attention and questions about Ireland whereas noone gives a stuff about Wales, to a point where she pops on her welsh /indian accent at times now to avoid the attention.

The Welsh tend to be intraverts more, maybe because of years of opression, maybe because we are a generally lower class of fan who gets a bad rep at times, whatever, but what Jones meant was that being 75% of the touring squad initially it would be easy for certain friends to stick together, that they would need to make an effort from the off for the 7 non Welsh players and handfull of coaching/backroom staff.

If you go nd check how this conversation started it'll be easy to see how there has been a missunderstanding to what are harmless comments...

thebluesmancometh wrote:I just want to start by saying Sam wouldn't have been my choice for captain for 2 reasons...

Firstly I prefer my captain to be the baddest man on the pitch, or at least the most influencial guy in the changing room ala POC, Johnson (NOT BOD) maybe AWJ, or even Heaslip.

Secondly I would prefer someone who has toured before to captain ala POC, Roberts etc...

Thats said there is no way you can judge his performance so far as captain on 2 media interviews that will mean very little, the squad as an entity hasn't even met up yet, only 22 players are at the vale right now.

What Warburton does have right now is the entire 22 on side, most of which are Welsh boys uninvolved in any finals, and the rest are being taken out of their comfort zones with the chryo etc, so Warbs is more comfortable than anyone at present, POC, Hogg, Greyetc should already have fallen in line as they look to the welsh boys to lead them through the chryo and Gatlands tendancies early on.

I'll judge Warburton on wether he's doing a good job when the entire squad gets together, and they play that first game in hong kong, that will be the first sign of his captaincy, on foreign soil against a very tough Ba Baa's team, and not a second before.

I suspect this is what you were reffering to sin, where I state twice POC would be my captain, and that I give mere factual evidence of Sams captain ability in a positive light, instead of the accusations of Gatland puppetry, media mistakes and the negative talk of a captain before he even trains with the entire squad.

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Go back and re read the thread I have said nothing of the sort regarding Welsh players, Irish players POC or BOD!!!

There were a lot of Welsh on the last tour too, but I agree in part, whenever I travel the missus gets a crazy amount of attention and questions about Ireland whereas noone gives a stuff about Wales, to a point where she pops on her welsh /indian accent at times now to avoid the attention.

The Welsh tend to be intraverts more, maybe because of years of opression, maybe because we are a generally lower class of fan who gets a bad rep at times, whatever, but what Jones meant was that being 75% of the touring squad initially it would be easy for certain friends to stick together, that they would need to make an effort from the off for the 7 non Welsh players and handfull of coaching/backroom staff.

If you go nd check how this conversation started it'll be easy to see how there has been a missunderstanding to what are harmless comments...

What does that sound like?

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Go back and re read the thread I have said nothing of the sort regarding Welsh players, Irish players POC or BOD!!!

There were a lot of Welsh on the last tour too, but I agree in part, whenever I travel the missus gets a crazy amount of attention and questions about Ireland whereas noone gives a stuff about Wales, to a point where she pops on her welsh /indian accent at times now to avoid the attention.

The Welsh tend to be intraverts more, maybe because of years of opression, maybe because we are a generally lower class of fan who gets a bad rep at times, whatever, but what Jones meant was that being 75% of the touring squad initially it would be easy for certain friends to stick together, that they would need to make an effort from the off for the 7 non Welsh players and handfull of coaching/backroom staff.

If you go nd check how this conversation started it'll be easy to see how there has been a missunderstanding to what are harmless comments...

What does that sound like?

Ask any Irishman/woman to put on a welsh accent and you'll get the best new dheli impression you will ever hear outside India...

I'm quite proud of my welsh accent actually! I have been working on it.