Champions Trophy - England and Wales 2013

First topic message reminder :

We have had a few prediction/ speculation type threads but this will be the discussion thread for matches in the Champions Trophy which starts this morning.

The first game is India v South Africa at the Swalec Stadium, Cardiff.

What has Giles done any differently to what Flower did when he was in charge?

alfie wrote:Warne saying Morgan got out because he was left too much to do...well maybe. But Morgan plays those shots all the time...

Indeed things have gone awry for England in these last few overs...but we do not know what would have happened had England tried to press the accelerator earlier , do we ?
We need to take into account the limitations of the batsmen , and the efforts of the opponents.

Deep trouble now as Butler fails

Might be glad we have Bresnan to bat today...

Given that we have such a fragile middle order, maybe it should be down to the top 3 to smash the runs?

The supposed sloggers are simply not doing their jobs, so whichever way you look at it, England's strategy was never going to work.

Too few boundaries and far too many dot balls for an ODI.

I agree with alfie. The top order actually set this up perfectly. The problem was Root (again) getting out at a poor time and the lower order so far not performing. 4-27 in the last 6 or so overs is the problem, not 180-2 in 35...

To those criticising the tactics, what would you do differently? OK, pushing Root up to the top-order (although no guarantee that he's able to score quicker than say Bell), but then who slots in at 4? Trott and Bell obviously can't play there and IMO Bopara neither for exactly the same reasons (not good enough at knocking it into gaps and don't score enough boundaries).

Also, more credit should be given to Australia who have bowled well, and in particular Bailey who has shuffled his (fairly samey) attack very well.

Mike Selig wrote:I agree with alfie. The top order actually set this up perfectly. The problem was Root (again) getting out at a poor time and the lower order so far not performing. 4-27 in the last 6 or so overs is the problem, not 180-2 in 35...

To those criticising the tactics, what would you do differently? OK, pushing Root up to the top-order (although no guarantee that he's able to score quicker than say Bell), but then who slots in at 4? Trott and Bell obviously can't play there and IMO Bopara neither for exactly the same reasons (not good enough at knocking it into gaps and don't score enough boundaries).

Also, more credit should be given to Australia who have bowled well, and in particular Bailey who has shuffled his (fairly samey) attack very well.

As far as I can tell, all Australia have done is bowled and fielded decently and not offered many easy shots. They have hardly been causing chaos for England's batsmen. Most of the wickets have come about through poor shots.

Matter of fact, if their fielding had been better, they could have had some cheap run-outs as well.

Other than that, I agree that the top 3 got us off to a good start. Fragile middle order has ruined the gameplan.

England are nothing without KP. Is he going to be fir for the ashes btw?

Your problem was root again - What the flipping heck are you talking about Mike!!

What is your problem with him and your love for having 3 slow coaches at 1-3 using up 66% of the balls we can potentially face!!

Crazy attitude !!

this team are a joke led by a joke coach at the moment.

well done aussie, good win.

thank god we'll be three and done and I don't have to watch anymore pathetic limp defeats.

and yes if the aussies bowl like this at our pathetic team they'll whitewash us in both ashes series.

NickisBHAFC wrote:England are nothing without KP. Is he going to be fir for the ashes btw?

No one man makes a team and KP is just as prone to these sort of mistakes as all our other players.

Mike Selig wrote:I agree with alfie. The top order actually set this up perfectly. The problem was Root (again) getting out at a poor time and the lower order so far not performing. 4-27 in the last 6 or so overs is the problem, not 180-2 in 35...

To those criticising the tactics, what would you do differently? OK, pushing Root up to the top-order (although no guarantee that he's able to score quicker than say Bell), but then who slots in at 4? Trott and Bell obviously can't play there and IMO Bopara neither for exactly the same reasons (not good enough at knocking it into gaps and don't score enough boundaries).

Also, more credit should be given to Australia who have bowled well, and in particular Bailey who has shuffled his (fairly samey) attack very well.

On a slow wicket you could say that the top order had done their job... however, this is what's known as a "belter" and they should have capitalized. No other team would have started so slowly. They would have laid a marker down immediately.

Giles is too rigid in his tactics, not deviating from target scores, not getting the top order to increase their run rate, and not switching the batting order when the match situation is crying out for it. Oh and questionable team selections.

GILES OUT!!!!!!!!!!

mystiroakey wrote:Your problem was root again - What the flipping heck are you talking about Mike!!

What is your problem with him and your love for having 3 slow coaches at 1-3 using up 66% of the balls we can potentially face!!

Crazy attitude !!

Agreed. We never fire out of the blocks and put instant pressure on the opposition, we accumulate and then try to smash everything in the last 15 overs or so, which is perfectly fine....if it was the mid 90s. ODI cricket has evolved since then.

india are about a thousand times better than England.

mystiroakey wrote:Your problem was root again - What the flipping heck are you talking about Mike!!

What is your problem with him and your love for having 3 slow coaches at 1-3 using up 66% of the balls we can potentially face!!

Crazy attitude !!

You think Root has batted well in these last two matches?

England got to 170odd for 2 off 35. That should have been a comfortable 300+ when you have the PP and then the last 10. The issue today has been the middle and lower order.

Well Lets hope our bowlers can get us out of trouble!!

Finally!

Bresnan showing Root, Buttler and Morgan what they should have done, with a couple of meaty boundaries.

He bowls to the left,
He bowls to the rightttt,
That Mitchell Johnson,
His bowling is sh!te!

Well if Ravi and Tim can hang around we might get to 260 or so, off these last 3 overs. Still probably not enough though...

47.3 overs bowled and not a single 6 hit. Rubbish.

god, pathetic.

30 runs of the last two and we have a shot at this

We've crossed 250, it's certainly defendable.

Think you're all being a bit harsh on England - have been switching between rugby & cricket all day & from what I've seen the Aussies have got their tactics spot-on.

Comparisons with India are a bit premature, a depleted SA attack bowled really poorly on Thursday & could still have quite easily won the game if they hadn't thrown it away with about 20 overs to go.

Ravi hits a six!

get in Rav!!

nice 6

250 up for England.

BOPARA HITS A SIX!!!! Takes him to 36 and makes him England's 3rd highest scorer.

THE FIRST OF THE MATCH!

aussie to get this in 35 overs against englands weakened bowling attack.

250.. . 350 would be Guptil or Indias total.

WHAT A SHOT FROM RAVI!

100% defend able score

COME ON ENGLAND!!!!

We can get to 270 in this last over. I'd make us favourites if we could.

Will never win this argument , but not going to back away from my opinion that the basic England tactics are sound , for the team we have and even today the top three had set up a strong springboard for the last fifteen overs. The hitters failed today because they didn't play the right shots , or play them well enough , not because of the score when they came in.

I wish KP was here too. But he's injured.

Bopara giving some hope...

Why've we been picking Ravi all this time when this Bopara kid's been waiting in the wings?!

Starc 1-75. Out of 260 odd... Wrong Mitchell?

bops showing aussie what they need to do.

A bit of a recovery from England after that middle order collapse. Bopara is having one of those days, he's on 38 and Bresnan has contributed 18 so far. England 258-6 with the last over of the innings remaining.

duty. it's a 300 pitch. 270 makes them favs.

Mitch bowls a wide= biggest cheer of the tournament.

The crowd have been brilliant out there.

Mitchell Johnson looks like Simple Jack.

trebellbobaggins wrote:duty. it's a 300 pitch. 270 makes them favs.

No Michael Clarke though. We'll be fine, thank gawd for that last partnership, 240 all out Australia. 5 wickets for Jimmy A.

Another huge hit brings a boundary for Bopara, taking him to 45 - now England's 2nd highest scorer.

Good cameo from Bresnan, making 19.

England finish on 269-6

A decent one-day total and probably just enough for the win.

269 is a decent score and 100% defend able. Bopara saving the innings at the end and getting the crowd going which will also be key in the 2nd innings.

Wouldn't class us as favorites but we are in a good position.

COME ON ENGLAND!

poor total with a weaker line-up.

needed 290 I would say.

Well done England... only 60-70 behind what they should have been targeting.

Defendable for sure with our bowlers, but any victory will only serve to paper over the cracks.

Australia complete that innings 40 minutes late.

Duty281 wrote:

trebellbobaggins wrote:duty. it's a 300 pitch. 270 makes them favs.

No Michael Clarke though. We'll be fine, thank gawd for that last partnership, 240 all out Australia. 5 wickets for Jimmy A.

Watson is their match winner without him and he's the danger man.

so is "Mitchell" Australian for "wayward and a bit over-rated"?

You still have to bat well to chase down 270, especially when you were bowled out for 60 odd a few days ago. Watson is the key, get him early and England and still in with a great shout.

Fair play to Bopara. Under no small amount of pressure

269. About twenty light I suspect ,reference England's target score

But as far as the contest goes , it is enough to give them a chance. Watson , and Warner , are probably the key. If Australia lose early wickets they are inclined to panic a bit.
They do bat deep today , but England have one thing Australia didn't have today - a quality spinner. And this pitch might suit him.

Will be interesting.

270. Defendable (which isn't a word) but 20-30 runs short of a par score.

I agree with alfie. Not the top order's fault, they got England to 170-2 off 35. Root, Morgan and Buttler didn't do their jobs today, had they done so 300+ was fairly easy. Not even 100 off the last 15 when you have 8 wickets in hand is a poor effort.

Nice cameo from Bopara but you want Morgan facing 37 balls ideally, not him.

Thought Faulkner was the pick of the Aussie bowlers, with Starc strangely off color (carrying a niggle?). Bailey marshaled his troupes very well, but a couple of unusual fielding lapses in the last few overs.

Watson obviously the key wicket.

Tredwell and maybe Bopara will be key bowlers. When the Aussies dug their fingers into the ball, it was hard to score. Expect Broad to bowl a lot of cutters as well.

Oh dear still banging that tune mike in the face of real evidence!!

Everything I said the other day has been proved!!

Nick Night,botham and Gower are saying everything I stated the other day.

I was called someone that had no idea about cricket and an inbecile and yet everything I said previously has been proved!!

Wake UP MIKE!!

Well that's 20-30 runs short of what England wanted due to Root, Morgan and Buttler all deciding not to show up basically, nice little cameo from Bopara at the end there.

Mysti still trying to blame that on the top order I see #headsgone

England finish with 269. Good effort from Bopara that took them thus far, after that collapse. 269 is a lot of runs, and it won't be easy for a struggling batting lineup with Michael Clarke. But if Watson and Warner get going, it won't be much of a chase. But the larger point is that England's game plan is a poor one. I do get the argument about the 2 new balls and the need to keep wickets and the chance to go big in the last 15 and all that. Mahendra Singh Dhoni, the Indian captain did mention that its important to keep wickets in the first few overs and then go for the big ones at the end. Yet, if you take a look at things, even in the last match, the 2 Indian openers, Shikhar Dhawan and Rohit Sharma scored 53 in the first 10 overs. Rohit, on his day, can hit it big against any bowler. Dhawan showed he has the ability to quickly move through the gears and bat long. Virat Kohli, their number 3 is capable of scoring 50 of 70, and then turn it to 110 of 100. They have Dhoni, one of the best ever ODI players in the world, the likes of Jadeja, Karthik and Raina are all capable of adapting their games to the match situation.
England on the other hand, often fail to go pass 40 in the first 10, their openers often find it difficult to consistently build the tempo of the innings while batting long, their number 3 can't shift gears and he usually bat too long in the same gear. In the rest of the lineup, only Eoin Morgan has a real fast pace game and the benefit of experience. Jos Buttler has potential, but up to now he has not been able to find consistency at this level. Root can adapt his game to the match situation, but he's not the one to go at 10 an over himself though he can help someone else at the other end do that.
So, the top order has to bat at a better pace. No need to go 7 an over, but 4.5 to 5 in the first 10, and a rate above 5 thereafter is a must. If they get in, they have to not only bat long, but also keep the tempo building through their innings. Its absolutely stupid to expect that your 5 and 6 will be able to score at a strike rate of 300 every day and get those big totals. They might do it now and then, but you have to be a total clown to make your plans based on such expectations.
When England under Flower tried opening with KP, the intent to try and do something proactive was there. Cook's remodeling of himself as an ODI batsman showed the same intent. But now they have gone back to plans that never worked, and plans that are nothing like plans, although some individual brilliance can at times make it look like a half-sensible idea.

msp83 wrote:England finish with 269. Good effort from Bopara that took them thus far, after that collapse. 269 is a lot of runs, and it won't be easy for a struggling batting lineup with Michael Clarke. But if Watson and Warner get going, it won't be much of a chase. But the larger point is that England's game plan is a poor one. I do get the argument about the 2 new balls and the need to keep wickets and the chance to go big in the last 15 and all that. Mahendra Singh Dhoni, the Indian captain did mention that its important to keep wickets in the first few overs and then go for the big ones at the end. Yet, if you take a look at things, even in the last match, the 2 Indian openers, Shikhar Dhawan and Rohit Sharma scored 53 in the first 10 overs. Rohit, on his day, can hit it big against any bowler. Dhawan showed he has the ability to quickly move through the gears and bat long. Virat Kohli, their number 3 is capable of scoring 50 of 70, and then turn it to 110 of 100. They have Dhoni, one of the best ever ODI players in the world, the likes of Jadeja, Karthik and Raina are all capable of adapting their games to the match situation.
England on the other hand, often fail to go pass 40 in the first 10, their openers often find it difficult to consistently build the tempo of the innings while batting long, their number 3 can't shift gears and he usually bat too long in the same gear. In the rest of the lineup, only Eoin Morgan has a real fast pace game and the benefit of experience. Jos Buttler has potential, but up to now he has not been able to find consistency at this level. Root can adapt his game to the match situation, but he's not the one to go at 10 an over himself though he can help someone else at the other end do that.
So, the top order has to bat at a better pace. No need to go 7 an over, but 4.5 to 5 in the first 10, and a rate above 5 thereafter is a must. If they get in, they have to not only bat long, but also keep the tempo building through their innings. Its absolutely stupid to expect that your 5 and 6 will be able to score at a strike rate of 300 every day and get those big totals. They might do it now and then, but you have to be a total clown to make your plans based on such expectations.
When England under Flower tried opening with KP, the intent to try and do something proactive was there. Cook's remodeling of himself as an ODI batsman showed the same intent. But now they have gone back to plans that never worked, and plans that are nothing like plans, although some individual brilliance can at times make it look like a half-sensible idea.

England were 54-0 off 10 today, and when Trott got out the run-rate was 5 an over, so the top order done there job today fine. Just the middle order collapse killed all hopes of 300