French Open, Men's Semis match thread

[lydian]

First topic message reminder :

So...1 hour to go, thought I'd create a specific match thread.

Its clear blue skies over Paris, not a cloud in sight and temp is already 26.5c and rising. Latest pic and temperature:


So the heat is literally on!

12pm GMT we have Nadal vs Djokovic, followed by David vs Goliath.

We've seen the predictions, heard the impersonations and listened to the musical quips, just need the action to start now!

[invisiblecoolers]

invisible - maybe so but personally I've always felt that AO2012 was more about quantity than quality and I don't think I'm alone in that.

For me, the ultimate barometer of a high quality AND exciting match remains Wimbledon final 2008.

AO 2012 was a rubbish match I didn't like it either, Wim 2008 is more quality and I agree with you, today's match was of real high quality in my view, and I am not even a Rafa fan.

Some of the shots were breath taking, if this can't be called quality in clay then clay have to be ruled out.

[break_in_the_fifth]

Sounds like we're headed to the worst possible final. At least I'll have Sunday completely free.

[The Special Juan]

I do not like to say things like "the best/worst I have ever seen", so I am not going to say it now. But do many of you remember many worse overhead performances than Nole had today? Including the net one, I think he blew five of them - and they were not exactly difficult overheads either. How many did he make? It feels like maybe two? I suppose it may have been more but the missed ones are easier to remember.

It's not the first time he's missed one on a big point and it won't be the last either. The one that will stick with me was in the 2nd set of the USO final v Murray at 5-6 and he missed an overhead to give Murray set point(s) which he took.

[break_in_the_fifth]

The thing with the overheads is that he should be making them 9/10. So even if he misses 1 or 2 it's a big deal.

[Haddie-nuff]

Sorry for you Novak fans... But ME Im tickled pink

I'm surprised you're not leading a conga line around the streets!!

You have got spies out haven´t you How did you guess

[invisiblecoolers]

Vamous David, seems like a bagel set.

[HM Murdock]

SB, say it!

The overhead smashes got to the point today where it was becoming funny in a painful kind of way!

It's crazy that a multi slam winner and world #1 has a shot that is so poor! It's not just weak in relative terms, it's actively bad!

[kingraf]

TSJ - True. I think he will be very gutted at this exact moment. When you use something emotional to drive you, and it fails, you tend to have a very flat feeling immediately afterwards. But in time you realise that you just pushed a guy above and beyond his limits.

[break_in_the_fifth]

Not watching the other semi, what's up with Tsonga?

[Henman Bill]

Novak missed 2 that I recall, but I may have forgottten others and missed a chunk of the match. I also remember him making several. Not sure if the stats are available in that much detail or not. Oops, nearly a whole set gone in the other match. Back to that I think,

The other thing I wanted to add is that it wasn't as physical for me as the AO finals (certainly) or even the US Open finals they had. I don't think either player was at their tiredness breaking point at all by the end, and I think it was deccided on talent and mental.

[summerblues]

SB, say it!

The overhead smashes got to the point today where it was becoming funny in a painful kind of way!

It's crazy that a multi slam winner and world #1 has a shot that is so poor! It's not just weak in relative terms, it's actively bad!

Yes, it is unreal. When he missed the first one, I jokingly said "typical Nole overhead" but I never thought they would be that bad today.

That said, overheads or not, Rafa was the better player for me today, Nole would have been a bit lucky to win. Of course, in the end, Rafa needed a bit of luck of his own to win the fifth, but on balance, I still think Rafa was the deserved winner today.

[summerblues]

Novak missed 2 that I recall, but I may have forgottten others and missed a chunk of the match. I also remember him making several.

Nole missed four in all, plus he touched the net on the fifth, so he lost the point on that one too. That is pathetic for a shot you are supposed to almost always make.

[JuliusHMarx]

Someone let me know when Tsonga starts playing.
I know the match has started, but as I say, let me know when Tsonga starts playing.

[luciusmann]

Luciusman - it will be interesting to see the rivalry from here, does Nadal turn a corner? The match went to five, but it was more a result of Djokovic's spirit. I dont think Djokovic really needed any confirmation that he can beat Nadal off clay.

True and because of Nadal's absence we didn't really know if Nadal was going to start beating Djokovic regularly because he beat Djokovic 3 times in a row all on clay ('12), including in the RG final, and this year they've only played once (until today I think) and Nadal lost (again on clay) but unlike last year, he's pushed Nadal on his favourite court now. Nadal pushed Djokovic in the Aussie Open '12 and then beat him consistently (only on clay though), however I think if we take into account surface, as you seem to suggest, it's going to be Djokovic holding Nadal back at the other slams.

It just goes to show though, it's actually a blessing Fed lost in the quarters to Tsonga, because there's no doubt Fed would have easily dispatched Ferrer and another pasting by Nadal is really not what Fed would have needed just before Wimbledon. Nadal will be hoping the draw places Fed on Djokovic's side of the draw at Wimbledon, because if there's any player Nadal can beat in grand slams, it's Fed these days.

[summerblues]

because if there's any player Nadal can beat in grand slams, it's Fed these days.

Even though, in fairness, Rafa occasionally beats other players too

[kingraf]

Tsonga making a fight. Come on Jo Willy (no ones deserves such an alias, but alas)

[antonico]

And well done to the umpire for allowing nadal to get away with rule breaking, bad call on break point, and refusing to water the slippy court.

And don't forget to mention the umpire's dastardly ploy of forcing Djokovic to give up the Break lead he had in the fifth set, too

[luciusmann]

because if there's any player Nadal can beat in grand slams, it's Fed these days.

Even though, in fairness, Rafa occasionally beats other players too

In slam finals since USO 2010, it's only been Djokovic (other than Fed) he's beaten (or that matter, lost to) in finals (USO '10 -Djoko, RG '11 -Fed, Wimby '11 -Djokovic, USO '11 -Djoko, Aussie Open '12 -Djoko, RG '12 -Djoko), so this will be the first final where it isn't Djokovic or Fed he won't have to beat to win the slam. I could have made it clearer that I was talking about finals, but you know now!

[_homogenised_]

Really hope tsonga can play his best. Nadal has to be feeling it after that 5 setter... but Tsonga has to mix it up and take him off the baseline. If Ferrer makes final... may as well forget it.

[summerblues]

but you know now!

I was not being quite serious. I understand your point, just decided to poke at it for fun - I knew you were not suggesting Rafa is likely to lose to all and sundry from the first round on.

[TRuffin]

Novak missed 2 that I recall, but I may have forgottten others and missed a chunk of the match. I also remember him making several.

Nole missed four in all, plus he touched the net on the fifth, so he lost the point on that one too. That is pathetic for a shot you are supposed to almost always make.

Should Nadal have at least attempted to concede that net touch point instead of asking for it and pointing at djoko? I know heat of the battle, but the ball was clearly put away and Nadal had no chance on the point...... He was standing 15 feet from it in the opposite direction when it hit the dirt.

[barrystar]

Novak missed 2 that I recall, but I may have forgottten others and missed a chunk of the match. I also remember him making several.

Nole missed four in all, plus he touched the net on the fifth, so he lost the point on that one too. That is pathetic for a shot you are supposed to almost always make.

Should Nadal have at least attempted to concede that net touch point instead of asking for it and pointing at djoko? I know heat of the battle, but the ball was clearly put away and Nadal had no chance on the point...... He was standing 15 feet from it in the opposite direction when it hit the dirt.

No - it's a pretty fundamental rule that you leave the net alone, it's tough. It may be that Nadal was beaten, but he can argue that if Djoko had not allowed himself the luxury of over-balancing and hitting the net on his shot he would have screwed up. No room for the point you are making I'm afraid.

[JuliusHMarx]

Novak missed 2 that I recall, but I may have forgottten others and missed a chunk of the match. I also remember him making several.

Nole missed four in all, plus he touched the net on the fifth, so he lost the point on that one too. That is pathetic for a shot you are supposed to almost always make.

Should Nadal have at least attempted to concede that net touch point instead of asking for it and pointing at djoko? I know heat of the battle, but the ball was clearly put away and Nadal had no chance on the point...... He was standing 15 feet from it in the opposite direction when it hit the dirt.

Absolutely not. Djoko shouldn't have even argued about it. Doesn't matter if Rafa was nowhere near it.

[Haddie-nuff]

And well done to the umpire for allowing nadal to get away with rule breaking, bad call on break point, and refusing to water the slippy court.

And don't forget to mention the umpire's dastardly ploy of forcing Djokovic to give up the Break lead he had in the fifth set, too

And lets not forget the coaching that he was getting (shame the umpire didn´t get the same tv shot I did)

[luciusmann]

Really hope tsonga can play his best. Nadal has to be feeling it after that 5 setter... but Tsonga has to mix it up and take him off the baseline. If Ferrer makes final... may as well forget it.

Can't see Ferrer winning a final against Nadal, but is Tsonga any more likely to beat Nadal? the H2H (Nadal vs Tsonga) is 8-3. Nadal has beaten Tsonga in all encounters on clay and both of those matches were won in straight sets.

For Ferrer, the figures are a bit better but Nadal has won all clay court encounters with Ferrer since 2004. The H2H is even worse, 19-4, and on clay courts it's more emphatic 17-1.

It doesn't matter if it's Joe or Daveed, there will only be one winner, Nadal. The only person who could stop Nadal just lost.

[The Special Juan]

And well done to the umpire for allowing nadal to get away with rule breaking, bad call on break point, and refusing to water the slippy court.

And don't forget to mention the umpire's dastardly ploy of forcing Djokovic to give up the Break lead he had in the fifth set, too

And lets not forget the coaching that he was getting (shame the umpire didn´t get the same tv shot I did)

And Novak was playing right handed too which definitely isn't allowed.

[Haddie-nuff]

[summerblues]

Should Nadal have at least attempted to concede that net touch point instead of asking for it and pointing at djoko?

No, that would be going way beyond the call of duty. Tough luck but Nole has only himself to blame there. I think he got overexcited; he clearly could have made that shot without touching the net, but that is his problem.

[Haddie-nuff]

Really hope tsonga can play his best. Nadal has to be feeling it after that 5 setter... but Tsonga has to mix it up and take him off the baseline. If Ferrer makes final... may as well forget it.

Can't see Ferrer winning a final against Nadal, but is Tsonga any more likely to beat Nadal? the H2H (Nadal vs Tsonga) is 8-3. Nadal has beaten Tsonga in all encounters on clay and both of those matches were won in straight sets.

For Ferrer, the figures are a bit better but Nadal has won all clay court encounters with Ferrer since 2004. The H2H is even worse, 19-4, and on clay courts it's more emphatic 17-1.

It doesn't matter if it's Joe or Daveed, there will only be one winner, Nadal. The only person who could stop Nadal just lost.

He did only just but beating Rafa over five sets is a huge mountain to climb for any player

[kingraf]

TRuffin - I dont think so. Has a player ever allowed a player to win the point from hitting a winner after the ball bounced twice? Or has a player given a player the point after they hit an ace but was called for a foot fault?

[luciusmann]

but you know now!

I was not being quite serious. I understand your point, just decided to poke at it for fun - I knew you were not suggesting Rafa is likely to lose to all and sundry from the first round on.

I'm not Rafa's biggest fan, but I prefer him being in the latter stages of grand slams, not going out early... I've built up a respect for Rafa, especially after reading his autobiography, I respect his work ethic, his grafting and especially his modesty, which I think is genuine, even if it sometimes seems feigned!

[Haddie-nuff]

Should Nadal have at least attempted to concede that net touch point instead of asking for it and pointing at djoko?

No, that would be going way beyond the call of duty. Tough luck but Nole has only himself to blame there. I think he got overexcited; he clearly could have made that shot without touching the net, but that is his problem.

In the same circumstances at a crucial time in the match would Novak ...come on !!!

[Haddie-nuff]

Ive been watching Rafa since he was 19 yrs old and if that is feigned modesty he should get an Oscar nobody could keep that up for that length of time. What you see is what you get some like it others hate it.

[The Special Juan]

This Hawkeye (lack of) mess is a shambles. Boycott the event! They need it more than a roof!!

[Guest]

KingRaf i love watching chris martin batting, its a blast. When he went over Singhs head for 4... priceless

[luciusmann]

He did only just but beating Rafa over five sets is a huge mountain to climb for any player

Exactly, it's no easy thing, although I'm sure players will think that as Nadal gets older, it gives them a better chance. I remember thinking last year that there was only one person who was able to beat Nadal @ RG, even after Djokovic had just lost the final. I still think the same and maybe it will happen next year? I think that when more is on the line (in terms of records and history), Djokovic doesn't respond so well in such matches but when they're not, he responds much better. Look at this performance from Djokovic today compared to last year, why didn't Djokovic not play like today in last year's final?

[The Special Juan]

I get the sense from Jim's commentary that he really doesn't like Ferrer. He's mentioned Clincher's disease several times and seems to criticise him every opportunity he gets.

[Guest]

Watch Julius... hes 6-5 up

[summerblues]

In the same circumstances at a crucial time in the match would Novak ...come on !!!

Agree.

But, in all fairness, Novak is quite good in that regard - I would say certainly better than either Roger or Rafa. He gave a point to Rafa last year that he did not have to - though obviously not either as clear cut, or as crucial. Still, it was a point in a FO final - I doubt Roger, Rafa, Andy, or indeed vast majority of other players, would have done the same.

[kingraf]

if you give a point that obvious away a break down in the fifth, you dont deserve the win, or a slam really

[summerblues]

if you give a point that obvious away a break down in the fifth, you dont deserve the win, or a slam really

I would not go that far.

[lags72]

Never any shortage of intrigue in the world of pro tennis.

Tsonga - the guy who took care of Federer in straights - goes two sets down to Ferrer - the guy who hasn't won once in fourteen meetings vs. Fed .........

[ChequeredJersey]

Unfortunately had to leave that match to work, but from I've heard the last set was the best and massive props to both Rafa () and Novak. Now, I only hope JTW can turn this around

[luciusmann]

Tsonga has gone 2 sets to love down and it really does show how much guff that was written and said by the commentators in the Fed vs Tsonga match about how Tsonga's new trainer was making the difference, was exactly what I thought, guff. Yes, Tsonga was better, but not hard given how below par Fed was, I guess it's to be expected given Fed's age. However, for these same commentators to gloss over Fed's age, as if it's not a factor is stupid. Maybe it isn't age, I mean, look at Daveed! All I can say is that Fed on Tuesday was just disappointing, Tsonga played well but he was hardly brilliant, look at him now, he's hopeless.

[ChequeredJersey]

Never any shortage of intrigue in the world of pro tennis.

Tsonga - the guy who took care of Federer in straights - goes two sets down to Ferrer - the guy who hasn't won once in fourteen meetings vs. Fed .........

Different style match-ups, plus Tsonga is more capable of brilliance but less consistent than Ferrer.

[kingraf]

i really would. that shows a complete lack of awareness. Novak wasnt disturbed by an earth tremor, or a cell phone in the crowd. giving him point is rewarding ineptude, and anyone who rewards inept work deserves their comeuppance

[Haddie-nuff]

Ill be honest I think Rafa is fair on court and often stops the umpire checking a line call and rubs it out himself if he thinks its an incorrect call... he did so today. But having said that when he thinks he is right he can be ruthless.. and I make no bones about it. His mother once said she doesn´t recognise her son on court .. such is the physical and mental change in him when he puts on that bandana

[summerblues]

i really would.

I can see that.

[TRuffin]

Novak missed 2 that I recall, but I may have forgottten others and missed a chunk of the match. I also remember him making several.

Nole missed four in all, plus he touched the net on the fifth, so he lost the point on that one too. That is pathetic for a shot you are supposed to almost always make.

Should Nadal have at least attempted to concede that net touch point instead of asking for it and pointing at djoko? I know heat of the battle, but the ball was clearly put away and Nadal had no chance on the point...... He was standing 15 feet from it in the opposite direction when it hit the dirt.

No - it's a pretty fundamental rule that you leave the net alone, it's tough. It may be that Nadal was beaten, but he can argue that if Djoko had not allowed himself the luxury of over-balancing and hitting the net on his shot he would have screwed up. No room for the point you are making I'm afraid.

fair enough.. I see you point... maybe djoko misses it if he wasn't so close to net... still seems a shame to see the match turn on that..

[kingraf]

Summer - sports is a professional game and no one deserves to be rewarded for showing a lack of skill/application. What next, do we allow Ferrer to stand a foot closer so he can get more bite on his serve? Do we allow Federer to play in the tramlines to protect that shaky backand.?

Its highly unfortunate for Djokovic, but Nadal has no business giving points that he lost of his own accord. You might not see many players do it, but the net rule is hardly an obscure one you can forgive for forgetting.

Back to Tsonga... chances of a comeback?

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