French Open, Men's Semis match thread

[lydian]

First topic message reminder :

So...1 hour to go, thought I'd create a specific match thread.

Its clear blue skies over Paris, not a cloud in sight and temp is already 26.5c and rising. Latest pic and temperature:


So the heat is literally on!

12pm GMT we have Nadal vs Djokovic, followed by David vs Goliath.

We've seen the predictions, heard the impersonations and listened to the musical quips, just need the action to start now!

[User 774433]

HM, is he playing Queens.

He is a great champion, he will bounce back.

[Henman Bill]

Djokovic fans, what would you have rather had.

1. Djokovic won the match today, but played badly for the rest of the year, finished ranked 3, and didn't make the Wimbledon or US finals.

OR

2. Djokovic lost today as he did, but goes on to win Wimbledon AND US Open and finish the year as no 1.

[CaledonianCraig]

Have others noticed about this trend creeping into Djokovic's game since the Australian Open? It seems he is finding ways to lose matches from a winning position or losing matches he is expected to win?

[HM Murdock]

Have others noticed about this trend creeping into Djokovic's game since the Australian Open? It seems he is finding ways to lose matches from a winning position or losing matches he is expected to win?

I'll quote a line from his interview after the Berdych defeat:

"I shouldn't allow these ups and downs in the match"

That's the problem.

[User 774433]

I think it's natural to have ups and downs in a match, to some extent.

Obviously you want to iron out the 'downs', but isn't that the aim for any player?
I think Djokovic today was one UE in the 4th set from losing in 4, but one 'not falling onto the net' from winning in 5... this is a game of very small margins.

[CaledonianCraig]

Have others noticed about this trend creeping into Djokovic's game since the Australian Open? It seems he is finding ways to lose matches from a winning position or losing matches he is expected to win?

I'll quote a line from his interview after the Berdych defeat:

"I shouldn't allow these ups and downs in the match"

That's the problem.

Yes but those ups and downs he speaks of just weren't there to such a degree in 2011 or last year. Once he got his teeth into a match and got the upper hand he was deadly. He had a mental steel and self-belief that just doesn't seem quite so strong just now. It might just be me but that is the feeling I get.

[Henman Bill]

Interesting story I had missed

http://www.10sballs.com/2013/06/07/usain-bolt-replaces-yannick-noah-as-trophy-presenter/

[Henman Bill]

Have others noticed about this trend creeping into Djokovic's game since the Australian Open? It seems he is finding ways to lose matches from a winning position or losing matches he is expected to win?

Not sure about that. He was 1-0 down and 2-1 down and 2-1 6-5 down in this match. Whoever lost it was going to be equally gutted in the end. And since the Oz Open is too little to judge on.

[HM Murdock]

No, you're right CC.

He's not really stringing a lot of games of top form together, let alone matches.

Today was a prime example. Four games in a row to take the second set and then loses five in a row in the third.

Battling fairly well in the 5th and then broken to love to lose the game.

The form chart is all over the place.

[CaledonianCraig]

No, you're right CC.

He's not really stringing a lot of games of top form together, let alone matches.

Today was a prime example. Four games in a row to take the second set and then loses five in a row in the third.

Battling fairly well in the 5th and then broken to love to lose the game.

The form chart is all over the place.

Yes that is how I see it. Whereas before his levels of performance were a consistent high now there are peaks and troughs. Take nothing away from Rafa - he re-iterated today why he is the greatest clay courter of all-time. If he can notch up another slam win here and then win either Wimbledon or the US Open he'd begin to fancy his chances of surpassing Federer's total again.

[Henman Bill]

Interesting that Nadal's W/UE ratio was much better. 61/44 which is very much above average on clay. Novak 54/75 which is a big difference. Looking at that I'm surprised it was even a 5-setter, I suppose Rafa has more forced errors due to Djokovic's aggressive play.

Also total points won 177-158 total points won is quite a significant difference. Had Djokovic held on to winn 6-4 he would have won with less points and games won.

[Henman Bill]

Set 5 W/UE has the biggest difference

Novak 13/21

Rafa 22/15

[User 774433]

Set 5 W/UE has the biggest difference

Novak 13/21

Rafa 22/15

wowzers Nadal really went for it in set 5.

[banbrotam]

No, you're right CC.

He's not really stringing a lot of games of top form together, let alone matches.

Today was a prime example. Four games in a row to take the second set and then loses five in a row in the third.

Battling fairly well in the 5th and then broken to love to lose the game.

The form chart is all over the place.

Yes that is how I see it. Whereas before his levels of performance were a consistent high now there are peaks and troughs. Take nothing away from Rafa - he re-iterated today why he is the greatest clay courter of all-time. If he can notch up another slam win here and then win either Wimbledon or the US Open he'd begin to fancy his chances of surpassing Federer's total again.

I'm actually begining to see Andy's Aus defeat being worse than the 2011 one. In 2011 we defended Andy by arguing that ultimately Nole was unplayable. Now, for this year, we see that it was a golden opportunity missed - Fed looked awful against Tsonga, showing again Andy's folly in taking 5 sets to beat him and given the numerous opportunities Andy had in the final, it's arguably becoming his worst Slam defeat

However, whislt you would say that these two weeks have been great for Rafa - they haven't been bad for Andy, assuming he's now fit

[summerblues]

Also total points won 177-158 total points won is quite a significant difference. Had Djokovic held on to winn 6-4 he would have won with less points and games won.

It is kind of funny how the scoring system works. On one hand, you can say that Rafa was lucky to pull off that fifth set, but on the other hand Nole was quite lucky to even get there. All in all, Rafa a deserving winner for me today. He looked the better player for most of the match. Out of the first four sets, Nole really only looked better in the second half of the second, and in the tail end of the fourth. The rest of the way it was mostly Rafa.

[socal1976]

Also total points won 177-158 total points won is quite a significant difference. Had Djokovic held on to winn 6-4 he would have won with less points and games won.

It is kind of funny how the scoring system works. On one hand, you can say that Rafa was lucky to pull off that fifth set, but on the other hand Nole was quite lucky to even get there. All in all, Rafa a deserving winner for me today. He looked the better player for most of the match. Out of the first four sets, Nole really only looked better in the second half of the second, and in the tail end of the fourth. The rest of the way it was mostly Rafa.

Can't really disagree, but Nole did have the advantage half way through the deciding set and blew it in a monumental way that sticks in everyone's mind. He didn't play as well as Nadal and should have lost, but somehow up till the 5th set he played better in the big points and at the end of sets 2 and 4. Still Nadal certainly deserved it.

I think this will be one of the dullest and most boring grandslam finals ever, I don't even know if I am going to watch.

[Silver]

Great fun catching up on the thread retrospectively. I missed the match, but sounds like there was some serious drama involved. Commiserations to HM and socal, you've been very magnanimous in defeat though.

Strangely I felt like a true neutral today, whereas in the past I would've been rooting for Nadal. I'm gaining an appreciation for Novak with each passing month, must be the influence of the two Novak fans-in-chief! I hope he wins RG some day, he would deserve it if he can maintain this high level for another year or two.

Heartbreaking way to lose, but stretching Nadal so far at his hallowed ground has got to count for something. Let us hope that there isn't too much of an internal backlash for Novak, and that both remain fit for Wimbledon.

[socal1976]

Djokovic fans, what would you have rather had.

1. Djokovic won the match today, but played badly for the rest of the year, finished ranked 3, and didn't make the Wimbledon or US finals.

OR

2. Djokovic lost today as he did, but goes on to win Wimbledon AND US Open and finish the year as no 1.

Number 2 obviously, that is part of problem with how much he talked up the French open and made it such a big deal. It was always going to be a big ask and then if you don't win you set yourself up for disappointment.

[HM Murdock]

I'm startled by this from Novak's interview:

"I don’t see many wrong things that I’ve done today, especially in the fifth set"

Seriously?!!

[Haddie-nuff]

I really cant understand what Novak was doing in that 3rd set. He obviously was not injured he was moving to well from then on... was it a plan he had?? confuse the enemy ?? that third set made no sense to me Novak got a breadstick in a GS
horror of horrors . It wasn´t the net incident that cost him that match it was set 3

[socal1976]

Yes, haddie he certainly picked an odd moment to check out mentally. He has run hot and cold for the last couple of months. I don't know what it is.

[socal1976]

I'm startled by this from Novak's interview:

"I don’t see many wrong things that I’ve done today, especially in the fifth set"

Seriously?!!

Defense mechanism I suppose, maybe he is in denial. But I will say this, I think a lot of the discussion is about what Novak did not do well. I think Nadal did a lot of good things and used some different tactics when compared to their most recent matchups. For example he served Novak to the forehand and body and avoided the backhand. Nadal did hit quite a few jaw dropping shots and made some incredible gets. Still I think he is doing best to cope with a terrible loss.

[Haddie-nuff]

Yes, haddie he certainly picked an odd moment to check out mentally. He has run hot and cold for the last couple of months. I don't know what it is.

Sorry socal I dont buy that... Novak getting a breadstick in a GS.. he may have had a mental lapse enough to play a few loose shots and lose his serve ..I cant help thinking it was a part of plan B.. confuse thine enemy.
Fortunately if it was the case then Rafa stuck to his guns and played on regardless,. It certainly wasn´t physical from Novak he was moving around too well after and he had no trainer on court or MTO. Rafa takes no prisoners as we know so he just said thanks Novak and carried on

[lydian]

What was great to see was Nadal being aggressive again. You can only admire the guys competitive instincts and sheer resilience. When most of us thought there was no way he could recover having lost the 4th set serving for it, then the TB, then broken early in the 5th...the guy plumbs depths of mental resolve that are hard to understand. He became more aggressive and pushed Djokovic the whole way. Yes the net incident at 4-3 was unfortunate for Novak (although I don't see it as pivotal as some, it was at deuce and he got back to deuce again) but you could argue the incredible sustained pressure Nadal was putting him under led to such an error being possible. If Nadal had simply wilted in the 5th Novak wouldn't have made that net error. It was Nadal's sustained aggression and never say die attitude that slowly but surely got to Novak who then showed mental frailty by arguing about the courts, crumbling on OH shots and making forced errors in that final game where he was surprisingly (or perhaps not so, I could feel it coming...) broken to love.

But is this prime Nadal? In patches yes and his serve is better but some might argue 2008/2010 Nadal would have closed out that 2nd set and won in straights. What was encouraging is that he got more aggressive as the match went on and that will stand him in good stead for battles ahead given the court was playing quick yesterday...probably quicker than Wimb or USO. They were also playing shorter, more aggressive ralleys. They played 335 points in 277 minutes on clay, at AO12 they played 369 points in 353 minutes. See, tennis is a bit more exciting when the surfaces are a little quicker. So this rivalry as a spectacle has room to grow if they keep up this level of aggression.

It is a hard loss for Novak to take because he knows he folded mentally as that 5th set went on. He played really well to take it to a 5th (although Nadal is still suffering serving it out yips) but couldn't hold the lead. He felt he was on some mission for Gencic and his destiny, but it wasn't to be. This is perhaps the biggest loss he's suffered and it will change him inside. All the greats have suffered them but its how they bounce back that defines them. Look at Nadal...has there ever been a more complete and resilient competitor in tennis? Novak will bounce back but needs to understand what went wrong rather than be in denial as he sounded in the post match presser. The problem is whether he can change what went wrong because a lot of it is succumbing to pressure to a guy Novak I'm sure believed he could outlast mentally and physically since 2011. And on a quicker court. Nadal had never shown him resilience before quite like yesterday and I wonder how this changes the dynamic moving forwards. What is clear however is that this comeback is becoming simply staggering, he's going to have to write another book! (one more RG match to go though...counting no chickens, etc).

[bogbrush]

It's incredible that RG is now e coming a fast Slam. Of ourse it's not actually fast, it's just that the others are ridiculously neutered.

[lydian]

Yep.

Had to laugh at Murray's tweet yesterday at 8pm..."Any good tennis matches today?"

[CaledonianCraig]

Yep.

Had to laugh at Murray's tweet yesterday at 8pm..."Any good tennis matches today?"

Wow lydian.

I didn't take you as a Murray follower.

[Born Slippy]

What was great to see was Nadal being aggressive again. You can only admire the guys competitive instincts and sheer resilience. When most of us thought there was no way he could recover having lost the 4th set serving for it, then the TB, then broken early in the 5th...the guy plumbs depths of mental resolve that are hard to understand. He became more aggressive and pushed Djokovic the whole way. Yes the net incident at 4-3 was unfortunate for Novak (although I don't see it as pivotal as some, it was at deuce and he got back to deuce again) but you could argue the incredible sustained pressure Nadal was putting him under led to such an error being possible. If Nadal had simply wilted in the 5th Novak wouldn't have made that net error. It was Nadal's sustained aggression and never say die attitude that slowly but surely got to Novak who then showed mental frailty by arguing about the courts, crumbling on OH shots and making forced errors in that final game where he was surprisingly (or perhaps not so, I could feel it coming...) broken to love.

But is this prime Nadal? In patches yes and his serve is better but some might argue 2008/2010 Nadal would have closed out that 2nd set and won in straights. What was encouraging is that he got more aggressive as the match went on and that will stand him in good stead for battles ahead given the court was playing quick yesterday...probably quicker than Wimb or USO. They were also playing shorter, more aggressive ralleys. They played 335 points in 277 minutes on clay, at AO12 they played 369 points in 353 minutes. See, tennis is a bit more exciting when the surfaces are a little quicker. So this rivalry as a spectacle has room to grow if they keep up this level of aggression.

It is a hard loss for Novak to take because he knows he folded mentally as that 5th set went on. He played really well to take it to a 5th (although Nadal is still suffering serving it out yips) but couldn't hold the lead. He felt he was on some mission for Gencic and his destiny, but it wasn't to be. This is perhaps the biggest loss he's suffered and it will change him inside. All the greats have suffered them but its how they bounce back that defines them. Look at Nadal...has there ever been a more complete and resilient competitor in tennis? Novak will bounce back but needs to understand what went wrong rather than be in denial as he sounded in the post match presser. The problem is whether he can change what went wrong because a lot of it is succumbing to pressure to a guy Novak I'm sure believed he could outlast mentally and physically since 2011. And on a quicker court. Nadal had never shown him resilience before quite like yesterday and I wonder how this changes the dynamic moving forwards. What is clear however is that this comeback is becoming simply staggering, he's going to have to write another book! (one more RG match to go though...counting no chickens, etc).

I didn't watch the whole match but certainly the latter half of the 5th I thought Nadal was playing at an incredible level. Simply phenomenal. He couldn't have produced that level in 2008. That said, I also thought Djokovic seemed a bit off his game. The backhand was mis-firing at times off relatively simple shots. As for the "smash" at 4-3 30-30...

I'd currently make Nadal favourite for Wimbledon as well. That would move him to 13 slams and start to give him a chance to get to 17 again. He still could end up the greatest of all time if his knees hold together for 3 or so more years.

[CaledonianCraig]

What was great to see was Nadal being aggressive again. You can only admire the guys competitive instincts and sheer resilience. When most of us thought there was no way he could recover having lost the 4th set serving for it, then the TB, then broken early in the 5th...the guy plumbs depths of mental resolve that are hard to understand. He became more aggressive and pushed Djokovic the whole way. Yes the net incident at 4-3 was unfortunate for Novak (although I don't see it as pivotal as some, it was at deuce and he got back to deuce again) but you could argue the incredible sustained pressure Nadal was putting him under led to such an error being possible. If Nadal had simply wilted in the 5th Novak wouldn't have made that net error. It was Nadal's sustained aggression and never say die attitude that slowly but surely got to Novak who then showed mental frailty by arguing about the courts, crumbling on OH shots and making forced errors in that final game where he was surprisingly (or perhaps not so, I could feel it coming...) broken to love.

But is this prime Nadal? In patches yes and his serve is better but some might argue 2008/2010 Nadal would have closed out that 2nd set and won in straights. What was encouraging is that he got more aggressive as the match went on and that will stand him in good stead for battles ahead given the court was playing quick yesterday...probably quicker than Wimb or USO. They were also playing shorter, more aggressive ralleys. They played 335 points in 277 minutes on clay, at AO12 they played 369 points in 353 minutes. See, tennis is a bit more exciting when the surfaces are a little quicker. So this rivalry as a spectacle has room to grow if they keep up this level of aggression.

It is a hard loss for Novak to take because he knows he folded mentally as that 5th set went on. He played really well to take it to a 5th (although Nadal is still suffering serving it out yips) but couldn't hold the lead. He felt he was on some mission for Gencic and his destiny, but it wasn't to be. This is perhaps the biggest loss he's suffered and it will change him inside. All the greats have suffered them but its how they bounce back that defines them. Look at Nadal...has there ever been a more complete and resilient competitor in tennis? Novak will bounce back but needs to understand what went wrong rather than be in denial as he sounded in the post match presser. The problem is whether he can change what went wrong because a lot of it is succumbing to pressure to a guy Novak I'm sure believed he could outlast mentally and physically since 2011. And on a quicker court. Nadal had never shown him resilience before quite like yesterday and I wonder how this changes the dynamic moving forwards. What is clear however is that this comeback is becoming simply staggering, he's going to have to write another book! (one more RG match to go though...counting no chickens, etc).

I didn't watch the whole match but certainly the latter half of the 5th I thought Nadal was playing at an incredible level. Simply phenomenal. He couldn't have produced that level in 2008. That said, I also thought Djokovic seemed a bit off his game. The backhand was mis-firing at times off relatively simple shots. As for the "smash" at 4-3 30-30...

I'd currently make Nadal favourite for Wimbledon as well. That would move him to 13 slams and start to give him a chance to get to 17 again. He still could end up the greatest of all time if his knees hold together for 3 or so more years.

I said pretty much the same thing yesterday Born Slippy with regards to Nadal and his final slam count. At the moment he is untouchable on clay so if he can stay fit you'd make him hot favourite perhaps for at least another two or three French Opens so with an odd slam elsewhere he'd be on the verge of GOATdom.

[summerblues]

succumbing to pressure to a guy Novak I'm sure believed he could outlast mentally and physically since 2011. And on a quicker court.

Well well well. Of all people you should not be so quick to take this angle. For weeks you have been saying that Rafa really needed dry, high bouncing, quick conditions (giving him 70/30 chances in such). He got just that and scraped by in the fifth set. Surely a more reasonable reaction would be to say "these conditions were as favorable as Rafa will find, yet it was much closer than I expected"?

Instead, you are finding a way to extrapolate outside clay ("and on a quicker court").

Is that an objective analysis I am reading or is that the heart of the fan in you writing this?

[slashermcguirk]

Watching the women's final here, standard is just laughable when you compare to nadal vs Novak match. It's like watching a different sport! Shockingly bad

[socal1976]

Great fun catching up on the thread retrospectively. I missed the match, but sounds like there was some serious drama involved. Commiserations to HM and socal, you've been very magnanimous in defeat though.

Strangely I felt like a true neutral today, whereas in the past I would've been rooting for Nadal. I'm gaining an appreciation for Novak with each passing month, must be the influence of the two Novak fans-in-chief! I hope he wins RG some day, he would deserve it if he can maintain this high level for another year or two.

Heartbreaking way to lose, but stretching Nadal so far at his hallowed ground has got to count for something. Let us hope that there isn't too much of an internal backlash for Novak, and that both remain fit for Wimbledon.

Thanks Silver, appreciate your post. In the long run I think Novak will comeback and be fine from this defeat. I mean he has played in, won, and lost many huge matches. In the short term it will hurt him, but I think in the long term it won't have a large impact. I also believe he will win the French open at some point.

[JuliusHMarx]

Watching the women's final here, standard is just laughable when you compare to nadal vs Novak match. It's like watching a different sport! Shockingly bad

As bad as some of Fed's recent performances?

[socal1976]

What was great to see was Nadal being aggressive again. You can only admire the guys competitive instincts and sheer resilience. When most of us thought there was no way he could recover having lost the 4th set serving for it, then the TB, then broken early in the 5th...the guy plumbs depths of mental resolve that are hard to understand. He became more aggressive and pushed Djokovic the whole way. Yes the net incident at 4-3 was unfortunate for Novak (although I don't see it as pivotal as some, it was at deuce and he got back to deuce again) but you could argue the incredible sustained pressure Nadal was putting him under led to such an error being possible. If Nadal had simply wilted in the 5th Novak wouldn't have made that net error. It was Nadal's sustained aggression and never say die attitude that slowly but surely got to Novak who then showed mental frailty by arguing about the courts, crumbling on OH shots and making forced errors in that final game where he was surprisingly (or perhaps not so, I could feel it coming...) broken to love.

But is this prime Nadal? In patches yes and his serve is better but some might argue 2008/2010 Nadal would have closed out that 2nd set and won in straights. What was encouraging is that he got more aggressive as the match went on and that will stand him in good stead for battles ahead given the court was playing quick yesterday...probably quicker than Wimb or USO. They were also playing shorter, more aggressive ralleys. They played 335 points in 277 minutes on clay, at AO12 they played 369 points in 353 minutes. See, tennis is a bit more exciting when the surfaces are a little quicker. So this rivalry as a spectacle has room to grow if they keep up this level of aggression.

It is a hard loss for Novak to take because he knows he folded mentally as that 5th set went on. He played really well to take it to a 5th (although Nadal is still suffering serving it out yips) but couldn't hold the lead. He felt he was on some mission for Gencic and his destiny, but it wasn't to be. This is perhaps the biggest loss he's suffered and it will change him inside. All the greats have suffered them but its how they bounce back that defines them. Look at Nadal...has there ever been a more complete and resilient competitor in tennis? Novak will bounce back but needs to understand what went wrong rather than be in denial as he sounded in the post match presser. The problem is whether he can change what went wrong because a lot of it is succumbing to pressure to a guy Novak I'm sure believed he could outlast mentally and physically since 2011. And on a quicker court. Nadal had never shown him resilience before quite like yesterday and I wonder how this changes the dynamic moving forwards. What is clear however is that this comeback is becoming simply staggering, he's going to have to write another book! (one more RG match to go though...counting no chickens, etc).

So now that in your words Nadal's comeback is staggering and he is playing more aggressive, do you retract your statement that anyone who believes Nadal is better than 60-80 percent of his prime has sub 100 iq?

[slashermcguirk]

I think in 5th set Novak hit some poor shots, particularly his overheads but in general I would say he played pretty well in that set. I just watched some of it back and the level was very high from both players. It was just a few careless shots that cost home dearly. As disappointing as the loss is, he did incredibly well to fight back and get it into a 5th. He also showed great quality and character saving some break points after a couple of bad misses the point before.

All in all, a lot for Novak to take from this match. Such a shame he couldn't pull it off but I still think he will the French open one day, hope I am right. I can see nadal winning Wimbledon and Novak the us open. Will be interesting to see how Murray returns to firm in the next few months

[socal1976]

I think in 5th set Novak hit some poor shots, particularly his overheads but in general I would say he played pretty well in that set. I just watched some of it back and the level was very high from both players. It was just a few careless shots that cost home dearly. As disappointing as the loss is, he did incredibly well to fight back and get it into a 5th. He also showed great quality and character saving some break points after a couple of bad misses the point before.

All in all, a lot for Novak to take from this match. Such a shame he couldn't pull it off but I still think he will the French open one day, hope I am right. I can see nadal winning Wimbledon and Novak the us open. Will be interesting to see how Murray returns to firm in the next few months

I am glad you are so positive about it slasher, I am a bit more pessimistic. No question in the long run he will be back and as strong as ever. But I think there really is no positive to take from the match. He knows he could have won this trophy, he knows he could have won that match; but he really did make a few too many careless and ill-timed plays. I think lost in this is the fact that Nadal played his best match against Djokovic in years and really changed some of his tactics from there encounters in recent years. Novak will have to readjust some of his tactics and execute just that little bit better.

[socal1976]

What was great to see was Nadal being aggressive again. You can only admire the guys competitive instincts and sheer resilience. When most of us thought there was no way he could recover having lost the 4th set serving for it, then the TB, then broken early in the 5th...the guy plumbs depths of mental resolve that are hard to understand. He became more aggressive and pushed Djokovic the whole way. Yes the net incident at 4-3 was unfortunate for Novak (although I don't see it as pivotal as some, it was at deuce and he got back to deuce again) but you could argue the incredible sustained pressure Nadal was putting him under led to such an error being possible. If Nadal had simply wilted in the 5th Novak wouldn't have made that net error. It was Nadal's sustained aggression and never say die attitude that slowly but surely got to Novak who then showed mental frailty by arguing about the courts, crumbling on OH shots and making forced errors in that final game where he was surprisingly (or perhaps not so, I could feel it coming...) broken to love.

But is this prime Nadal? In patches yes and his serve is better but some might argue 2008/2010 Nadal would have closed out that 2nd set and won in straights. What was encouraging is that he got more aggressive as the match went on and that will stand him in good stead for battles ahead given the court was playing quick yesterday...probably quicker than Wimb or USO. They were also playing shorter, more aggressive ralleys. They played 335 points in 277 minutes on clay, at AO12 they played 369 points in 353 minutes. See, tennis is a bit more exciting when the surfaces are a little quicker. So this rivalry as a spectacle has room to grow if they keep up this level of aggression.

It is a hard loss for Novak to take because he knows he folded mentally as that 5th set went on. He played really well to take it to a 5th (although Nadal is still suffering serving it out yips) but couldn't hold the lead. He felt he was on some mission for Gencic and his destiny, but it wasn't to be. This is perhaps the biggest loss he's suffered and it will change him inside. All the greats have suffered them but its how they bounce back that defines them. Look at Nadal...has there ever been a more complete and resilient competitor in tennis? Novak will bounce back but needs to understand what went wrong rather than be in denial as he sounded in the post match presser. The problem is whether he can change what went wrong because a lot of it is succumbing to pressure to a guy Novak I'm sure believed he could outlast mentally and physically since 2011. And on a quicker court. Nadal had never shown him resilience before quite like yesterday and I wonder how this changes the dynamic moving forwards. What is clear however is that this comeback is becoming simply staggering, he's going to have to write another book! (one more RG match to go though...counting no chickens, etc).

I didn't watch the whole match but certainly the latter half of the 5th I thought Nadal was playing at an incredible level. Simply phenomenal. He couldn't have produced that level in 2008. That said, I also thought Djokovic seemed a bit off his game. The backhand was mis-firing at times off relatively simple shots. As for the "smash" at 4-3 30-30...

I'd currently make Nadal favourite for Wimbledon as well. That would move him to 13 slams and start to give him a chance to get to 17 again. He still could end up the greatest of all time if his knees hold together for 3 or so more years.

I said pretty much the same thing yesterday Born Slippy with regards to Nadal and his final slam count. At the moment he is untouchable on clay so if he can stay fit you'd make him hot favourite perhaps for at least another two or three French Opens so with an odd slam elsewhere he'd be on the verge of GOATdom.

I don't know if I would go as far as saying he is untouchable on clay he was down a break in the 5th. I think Nadal would already have the most slams if he had even reasonable health with his knees. I don't think he will get to 17 though. On the issue of Nadal on clay, I think Djokovic has presented him a challenge on the clay that he has never had before. Remember that this is only the second 5 set match in Nadal's career at RG, and he pushed him last year's final as well. Also he has scored impressive wins over him in every other major clay event. Nadal is clearly the best clay court player now or ever, but I think he is more touchable at the hands of Djokovic than he has been when compared to any other rival on clay, these past few years at least.

[HM Murdock]

The positive for Djokovic is that on Rafa's best surface, in Rafa's favourite conditions, he took Rafa to 9-7 in the 5th. And this with a performance that most agree was not his best.

If we compare the challenge he posed yesterday to the challenge he posed in last year's final, it's a vast improvement.

There's just a lingering disappointment that the opportunity for more was there and Novak rather shot himself in the foot.

As an event in isolation, I don't see yesterday as anything to worry about. The fact it's come in a sequence of rather patchy results is more worrying.

But no more rumination for me on the matter. What's done is done, let's see how he does on grass. And if it goes wrong there too, well, it's hard court for the rest of the year!

[lydian]

He'll be back for sure but with each passing year the RG challenge gets tougher and tougher. I don't think he's quite the mental fortress he has been and credit also has to be given to Nadal for turning around what had become a desperate situation by USO11. If another business end slam match goes deep to 5 sets again will Djokovic have that same unwavering belief he cannot lose anymore. He'll rebound but marks will be left from yesterday I'm sure.

[CaledonianCraig]

What was great to see was Nadal being aggressive again. You can only admire the guys competitive instincts and sheer resilience. When most of us thought there was no way he could recover having lost the 4th set serving for it, then the TB, then broken early in the 5th...the guy plumbs depths of mental resolve that are hard to understand. He became more aggressive and pushed Djokovic the whole way. Yes the net incident at 4-3 was unfortunate for Novak (although I don't see it as pivotal as some, it was at deuce and he got back to deuce again) but you could argue the incredible sustained pressure Nadal was putting him under led to such an error being possible. If Nadal had simply wilted in the 5th Novak wouldn't have made that net error. It was Nadal's sustained aggression and never say die attitude that slowly but surely got to Novak who then showed mental frailty by arguing about the courts, crumbling on OH shots and making forced errors in that final game where he was surprisingly (or perhaps not so, I could feel it coming...) broken to love.

But is this prime Nadal? In patches yes and his serve is better but some might argue 2008/2010 Nadal would have closed out that 2nd set and won in straights. What was encouraging is that he got more aggressive as the match went on and that will stand him in good stead for battles ahead given the court was playing quick yesterday...probably quicker than Wimb or USO. They were also playing shorter, more aggressive ralleys. They played 335 points in 277 minutes on clay, at AO12 they played 369 points in 353 minutes. See, tennis is a bit more exciting when the surfaces are a little quicker. So this rivalry as a spectacle has room to grow if they keep up this level of aggression.

It is a hard loss for Novak to take because he knows he folded mentally as that 5th set went on. He played really well to take it to a 5th (although Nadal is still suffering serving it out yips) but couldn't hold the lead. He felt he was on some mission for Gencic and his destiny, but it wasn't to be. This is perhaps the biggest loss he's suffered and it will change him inside. All the greats have suffered them but its how they bounce back that defines them. Look at Nadal...has there ever been a more complete and resilient competitor in tennis? Novak will bounce back but needs to understand what went wrong rather than be in denial as he sounded in the post match presser. The problem is whether he can change what went wrong because a lot of it is succumbing to pressure to a guy Novak I'm sure believed he could outlast mentally and physically since 2011. And on a quicker court. Nadal had never shown him resilience before quite like yesterday and I wonder how this changes the dynamic moving forwards. What is clear however is that this comeback is becoming simply staggering, he's going to have to write another book! (one more RG match to go though...counting no chickens, etc).

I didn't watch the whole match but certainly the latter half of the 5th I thought Nadal was playing at an incredible level. Simply phenomenal. He couldn't have produced that level in 2008. That said, I also thought Djokovic seemed a bit off his game. The backhand was mis-firing at times off relatively simple shots. As for the "smash" at 4-3 30-30...

I'd currently make Nadal favourite for Wimbledon as well. That would move him to 13 slams and start to give him a chance to get to 17 again. He still could end up the greatest of all time if his knees hold together for 3 or so more years.

I said pretty much the same thing yesterday Born Slippy with regards to Nadal and his final slam count. At the moment he is untouchable on clay so if he can stay fit you'd make him hot favourite perhaps for at least another two or three French Opens so with an odd slam elsewhere he'd be on the verge of GOATdom.

I don't know if I would go as far as saying he is untouchable on clay he was down a break in the 5th. I think Nadal would already have the most slams if he had even reasonable health with his knees. I don't think he will get to 17 though. On the issue of Nadal on clay, I think Djokovic has presented him a challenge on the clay that he has never had before. Remember that this is only the second 5 set match in Nadal's career at RG, and he pushed him last year's final as well. Also he has scored impressive wins over him in every other major clay event. Nadal is clearly the best clay court player now or ever, but I think he is more touchable at the hands of Djokovic than he has been when compared to any other rival on clay, these past few years at least.

I would stand by the untouchable remark. This was a golden chance for Novak being a break up in the fifth set against a Rafa just a few months back from a long injury lay-off. Will he get a better chance? I am not sure and Novak is the only real challenger on clay on the horizon. Now as I expect if Rafa wins tomorrow then he will have 12 slams. He won't surpass Roger's total on clay slams alone though so he'll need to refind the art of winning slams off clay. If he can do that then he has a fair to decent chance of surpassing Roger's total. A big if I know but we shall see.

[Henman Bill]

Starting with AO12, Ferrer is now on a 28 match unbeaten streak in grand slam matches against non-top-4 opponents.

However, during that period, he is 1:5 against top 4 opponents. The only win came in last year's RG against Andy. In the remaining five matches, he only won a total of two sets.

Great stats, Ferrer needs to draw inspiration from his match point against Rafa at madrid and taking him to three sets on clay twice this year, and try to forget his FO semi final last year.

[Henman Bill]

I must admit I am confused by court speed. It did look fast to me this year, there seemed to be more volleying, more winners. Was that the balls, the court's change, the weather? I really don't know anymore!

The AO looks faster in the day but in the night matches, I am not so sure at all. The AO final was the longest and most physical one. It would be interested to see some stats for each slam on number of aces, W/UE ratio, length of rallies. The average/total of all points across the men's singles tournament.

If you are going to have to win the FO, it's right that you should have to beat Rafa in a slow dustbowl to do it for me. I like the variety and I just wish Wimbledon and the US Open were faster again. Andre Agassi's achievement of winning both Wimbledon and the FO in the 90s is more impressive than doing it now. That being said, Rafa won Wimbledon twice. Mind you, Borg won both multiple times in serve/volley Wimbledon era.

[bogbrush]

Borgs achievements in RG / Wimbledon doubles are in a different league to Nadal & Federers. Far, far superior.

[JuliusHMarx]

Borgs achievements in RG / Wimbledon doubles are in a different league to Nadal & Federers. Far, far superior.

Yes, although Fed and Rafa were never given the opportunity to match Borg.

[lydian]

Contrary to poplar belief RG isn't a slow court. People mistakenly think clay is slow...this isnt usually the case. The defining feature is the top dressing that creates high bounce due to spin adherence and sliding movement. The only really slow HC is Hamburg and Monte Carlo...primarily because they're usually played when its not hot. Hamburg was always cool and damp...this makes the surface less bouncy and the damp top dressing slows the ball down a lot. Surfaces like AO and IW are slower than RG, but slightly lower bouncing too. Because grass and USO are slower the speed indexes are probably not that different now...but the bounce is still the defining feature of difference.

Borg achievements are monumental. The guy had to completely change his game between RG and Wimb, not the minor adjustments theses modern guys have to make regarding the bounce - which due to slower speed is also more convergent than yesteryear.

[JuliusHMarx]

According to this - http://www.perfect-tennis.co.uk/tennis-court-surfaces-and-court-speeds/ - it's officially rated as 'Slow'

It then goes on to say why the official rating is more or less meaningless - assuming the guy knows what he's talking about.

[invisiblecoolers]

According to this - http://www.perfect-tennis.co.uk/tennis-court-surfaces-and-court-speeds/ - it's officially rated as 'Slow'

It then goes on to say why the official rating is more or less meaningless - assuming the guy knows what he's talking about.

Excellent link, very nice article by the blogger, the video comparison of Fed 2003 and Fed 2008 serve was awesome too.

[lydian]

Yeah JHM, its not that accurate but then there's no perfect test.
My comments are also mean in relativity...of course compared a few years ago clay courts are no doubt slower but by 2013 standards they're just about as "fast" as everywhere else. Also, the power the guys have today means they can make the ball slide through the top dressing with flat hitting to actually get a low skidding shot. In a way it's not a surface that can reward all types of play. However, the challenge is always movement on top dressing,

It's interesting looking back to some articles I wrote on the old 606 back in 2008 and 2009.


1. "One speed, one bounce, one vision..."
by Lydian (U11731418) 29 April 2008
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/606/A44400214

So, where's it all going to end...??? Look at the courts now. Paris plays a little faster, Wimby alot slower, Australian slower and USO slower. In about 5 years time we will have 4 surfaces but only one speed, one type of bounce. Its getting ridiculous. Why dont they just say S&V tennis is obsolete - or even volleying is obsolete. Rapier-like backhand slices - who needs those? Infact, who can play those anymore? Probably just Federer.

Indeed why bother coming forward when you can just slog it out from the back - the low risk form of tennis. Whatever happened to risk taking types of play. The old chip and charge? Coming in on a nothing approach to try top outfox the opponent. Now its just a matter of a baseline winner or more likely an unforced error. I dont mind watching that for part of the season but all tennis matches are getting more and more similar now. The surface is becoming irrelevant.

People like Nadal - who are good dont get me wrong - will soon be able to get to all GS finals becuase they dont have to adjust their slowcourt games much. 10 years ago he wouldnt have had a sniff of a Wimbledon final with his fastcourt techique (e.g. carpet - won 2, lost 6). Ok, so maybe we dont want it quite like when Pete was playing Goran on grass but in some respects I miss those cut and thrust days. At least it allowed different specialists to come forward. Now its all just homogenised. They even change the tennis balls to slow down fast surfaces.

They might as well just hardcourt Wimbledon and Roland Garros and have done with it. In my opinion convergance has gone too far. Ok it might make things fairer for baseliners but where's the happy medium in all this? What about encouraging the development of fastcourt players. Soon there'll be a whole generation of players who wont know how people like Edberg, Becker, McEnroe and Sampras played - even Borg was an out and out volleyer compared to Nadal.

Conclusion: doesnt this surely have to be the best time in tennis history to be able to win a true all-4 Grand Slam???

PS. This article is slightly tongue in cheek but you get the picture...I want more variation, more artistry, more risk-taking...


2. "Court 'speeds'"
by Lydian (U13373500) 02 December 2008
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/606/A44400214

Ok, this is admittedly a little bit of a dry topic but hey, we're inbetween tournies at the moment and us tennis fans have to keep our idle minds occupied somehow outside the player profile, prediction, and SPOTY threads.

As there has been alot of recent discussion about types and speeds of courts, I thought it might be interesting to look at this further in the absence of established speed metrics. It is plausible to relate general 'speed' by % service breaks on it over a whole tournament. The theory is the faster the court, the harder it is to generally break leading to lower overall % breaks.

With this in mind, recent results for major events show the relative order of 'speed' (i.e. %breaks) below. I've cut them into different groups where numeric 'jumps' occur...yeah I know its stretching it perhaps but hey, it makes for abit of musing. Anyway, here's the results...

ULTRA-QUICK COURTS?:
Lyon (Indoor carpet) 2007 = 13.57%
Halle (Grass) 2008 = 14.35%
Queens (Grass) 2007 = 15.76%

FAST COURTS?:
Basel (Indoor carpet) 2007 = 17.21%
Wimbledon (Grass) 2007 = 17.34%
Madrid Masters (Indoor hard) 2007 = 18.02%
Paris Masters (Indoor hard) 2005-7 = 18.56%
Cincinnati Masters (DecoTurfII) 2007 = 19.22%
St.Petersberg (Indoor carpet) 2007 = 19.87%

MEDIUM PACE COURTS?:
Montreal Masters (DecoTurfII) 2007 = 21.12%
Miami Masters (DecoTurfII) 2008 = 21.70%
US Open (DecoTurfII) 2007 = 21.87%
Dubai TC (DecoTurfII) 2008 = 22.08%

SLOWER COURTS?:
Indian Wells (Plexipave) 2008 = 22.97%
Australian Open (Plexicushion) 2008 = 23.18%
Rome Masters (Clay) 2007 = 23.34%
Toronto Masters (DecoTurfII) 2006 = 23.53%
Roland Garros (Clay) 2008 = 23.68%

VERY SLOW COURTS?:
Barcelona (Clay) 2008 = 26,53%
Monte Carlo Masters (Clay) 2008 = 29.22%
Hamburg Masters (Clay) 2006 = 30.32%
Estoril (Clay) 2008 = 30.84%

=================================================


You could see even back then that RG was arguably on a par with AO, IW and Toronto. Given those hard courts (and others) have undoutedly slowed down further since 2008 and RG looks to use less top dressing its not unrealistic to see it as a "faster" surface than many HCs now.

[socal1976]

I don't know what support there is for this notion that all the courts have slowed down since 2008. I don't see that being the case, if anything the FO looks faster than it ever has to me. Maybe changes with the ball. No way I see it being as fast as Toronto. If this is what the official rankings say, I am skeptical.

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