Gatlands Errors so far this Tour?

First topic message reminder :

So far so good for the Lions although definate room for improvement and injury concerns. I think Gatland has been shown to have made some errors so far though.

Firstly I think it was a mistake not to bring 3rd number 10. Hogg just doesnt provide real cover there for a Test match environment. He should never be starting 10 for the first time in years on a Lions Tour given his experince and age. If it came down to having to start him at 10 for Test matches then the Lions are done for.

Secondly, the captaincy. Gatland has been loyal to Warburton. Maybe he felt he had to select him with the Welsh connection. Maybe the condition of BOD and POC made Gatland nervous about picking either as captain. But POC and BOD have looked good so far and very strong candidates to start. On the other hand, the backrow was immense for competition even before the tour - ask the English boys left out altogether - but seems like O'Brien and Heaslip have also returned to form that went missing in the 6 Nations. Tipuric also looks good. Gatland has backed himself into corner now. Surely he cant drop and undermine his captain? But has Warburton done enough to justify being a starter? Is it right the whole backrow balance should be to accommodate Warburton?

Any other errors Gatland has made?

Talking of books, and bearing in mind the subject of this thread, here's an old Daily Mail article. It's an extract from Ian McGeechan's book where he looks at what went wrong on tour in 2005:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-1216325/The-secret-life-Lions-2005-saw-players-Alistair-Campbell-Clive-Woodwards-team-left-tatters.html

The lack of personal relationships with the players and the absence of a gameplan stand out as major issues for me. You can get away with being an impersonal leader at national level but the Lions demands more engagement. I think Gatland has probably got that bit right.

LondonTiger wrote:Well by adding Billy Twelvetrees to the party I guess Gatland has admitted to making a mistake and not touring with enough midfield cover.

Like many he probably thought Farrell would have been better...!

maestegmafia wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Well by adding Billy Twelvetrees to the party I guess Gatland has admitted to making a mistake and not touring with enough midfield cover.

Like many he probably thought Farrell would have been better...!

Nah.  Disagree, mate.
Gatland knows what he has in Farrell.
I think it's simply there is not sufficient cover at ten, and frankly, nor at twelve either.  It will be bad if Sexton gets hurt.  I'm sure Gatland was waiting on Jonny, as I said earlier.  But Twelvetrees is a good option.  Let's hope for the best, eh?

maestegmafia wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Well by adding Billy Twelvetrees to the party I guess Gatland has admitted to making a mistake and not touring with enough midfield cover.

Like many he probably thought Farrell would have been better...!

Seriously Maesteg will you give it a rest!!!!!

So far only you and one other welsh poster seem hell bent on slagging him off at every chance you get.

Gatland realises that the tour has been so-so thus far.

I don't believe he's referring to the opposition though: http://www.espn.co.uk/lions-tour-2013/rugby/story/185597.html

Knackeredknees wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Well by adding Billy Twelvetrees to the party I guess Gatland has admitted to making a mistake and not touring with enough midfield cover.

Like many he probably thought Farrell would have been better...!

Seriously Maesteg will you give it a rest!!!!!

So far only you and one other welsh poster seem hell bent on slagging him off at every chance you get.

No one is slagging anyone off, I and a number of others, Irish, Scottish, and Welsh posters, even a few English think he has been poor.

Don't try to make out there are just a few of us and we are all Welsh.

Gatlands Biggest error/proudest moment?


https://youtu.be/675nDQFhmLk

maestegmafia wrote:Gatlands Biggest error/proudest moment?
https://youtu.be/675nDQFhmLk

Cripe, he had real dumbass haircut back then.  Imagine looking at that and thinking some day THAT will lead the Lions?

MM,

The clear error was not selecting Farrell. Whether he was the right selection is a matter of opinion but not a clear error. The clear error was selceting a squad that has to play at weekends and in midweek yet only selecting 2 outside halves and one IC. Pretty much everyone felt there should also have been a player capable of playing 10 & 12. It could have been Hook or Madigan, but tehre should have been someone. Finally one has been added to the squad - not to compete for the test side but to make sure there was adequate cover for midweek games.

doctor_grey wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:Gatlands Biggest error/proudest moment?
https://youtu.be/675nDQFhmLk

Cripe, he had real dumbass haircut back then.  Imagine looking at that and thinking some day THAT will lead the Lions?

I think that type of haircut was quite the rage in Hamilton in the late eighties early nineties. It was an outstandingly good result for Waikato that day.

It actually looks as though Gatlamd has lost weight since then...!!

LondonTiger wrote:MM,

The clear error was not selecting Farrell. Whether he was the right selection is a matter of opinion but not a clear error. The clear error was selceting a squad that has to play at weekends and in midweek yet only selecting 2 outside halves and one IC. Pretty much everyone felt there should also have been a player capable of playing 10 & 12. It could have been Hook or Madigan, but tehre should have been someone. Finally one has been added to the squad - not to compete for the test side but to make sure there was adequate cover for midweek games.

Spot on. Selecting 3 players to cover 10 & 12 as specialists has been exposed as an error & it was waiting to happen.
Yes there are make do players like Davies & Hogg but this is the Lions & we shouldn't be making do!

maestegmafia wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:Gatlands Biggest error/proudest moment?
https://youtu.be/675nDQFhmLk

Cripe, he had real dumbass haircut back then.  Imagine looking at that and thinking some day THAT will lead the Lions?

I think that type of haircut was quite the rage in Hamilton in the late eighties early nineties. It was an outstandingly good result for Waikato that day.

It actually looks as though Gatlamd has lost weight since then...!!

Flankers and hookers loitering on the wing - who'd have guessed that Gatland was involved? It's the blueprint for Croft and Youngs.

Gatland was mistaken in only taking two 10 particularly as one was young and not really performing well and the other was coming back from a long injury. I would have taken Sexton, Flood and either Twelvetrees or Madigan.

My current worry is that BOD seems destined to play in the first test after a poor 6N (by his standards) and not having played against any quality opposition. He has looked great against Western Farce and the Combined team but, lets be honest they were rubbish!

British and Irish Lions coach Warren Gatland has warned he will omit Sam Warburton from his Test side if he feels his captain is not playing well.

The Welsh open-side leads the tourists against New South Wales Waratahs on Saturday in only his second start.

With Justin Tipuric and Sean O'Brien in form, Warburton needs a strong outing to dispel questions about his place.

"I have been 100% consistent from day one. It is about picking the best players," said Gatland.

"I haven't changed that tune, and Sam is well aware of that."


http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/22895822


There you go. Straight from the warthog's mouth.

It is all well and good Gats saying that re Tipuric/Warburton, but past experience suggests he is not as good as his word. 

Tipuric was apparently the form 7 last Autumn (I say apparently because my only sight of him was at Welford road where he was poor and outplayed by Fatty Waldrom!!) but got just th eone game against samo and was immediately dropped for Warburton to return when Gatland retook the reigns for th elast two AIs.

Then in the 6Ns, it was only due to injuries to Warburton then RyanJ that Tipuric got a couple of starts. Yes Howley was putatively in charge, but all in the camp admitted that Gatland was not completely excluded.

No way does Gatland drop his captain for the first test. All Warburton has to do is put in a decent performance tomorrow for Gatland to justify selecting him. Gatland can say all the right things before the tests but will be stick to then once they are here. 

Warburton hasn't been terrible like some are suggesting, he's been ok and understandably rusty but the fact remains the Tipuric is playing better and deserves to be rewarded.

Yeah I don't think Sam has played bad just not on top form or as good as Tipuric beens playing.  It would be a huge call to drop your captain for the 1st test (somethings that not happened before).

So you all really think Gatland will jeopardise the Lions' chances of winning the first Test just to spare Warburton's feelings?

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:So you all really think Gatland will jeopardise the Lions' chances of winning the first Test just to spare Warburton's feelings?

No.

I think he will select him because he, Gatland, believes that Warburton is the better all-round option.

Does Gatland humiliate his captain now or does he push the problem down the line and deal with it when the Warburton/Tupiric debate arises for Wales? Now that Lydiate is fit I can't see him playing both for Wales. Deal with it down the line I think. It really is a great problem for Wales, I wouldn't mind Ireland having the same problem.

LondonTiger wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:So you all really think Gatland will jeopardise the Lions' chances of winning the first Test just to spare Warburton's feelings?

No.

I think he will select him because he, Gatland, believes that Warburton is the better all-round option.

It also seems he's looking at croft for 6 for his line out presence, and most likely Warburton would compliment croft better tgan tipuric would due to being a little more physical in the tight exchanges

LondonTiger wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:So you all really think Gatland will jeopardise the Lions' chances of winning the first Test just to spare Warburton's feelings?

No.

I think he will select him because he, Gatland, believes that Warburton is the better all-round option.

+1

I think he'll pick Lydiate for the very same reason.

Okay, so let's say Warburton has an average to poor game tomorrow. Do you still think Gatland will select him for the first Test?

LP,

Yeah I think he will or Sam would have ' mysteriously' picked up a knock and won't be fit but I don't think he will drop him.

Gatland has a tough job https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SL3e6L9Kd0

I think Gatland would still pick him, he'd put a spin on it like "Sam worked his socks off, done some good things and this tough game will stand to him, he'll be better for this come next week". Gatland has huge faith in him and this is why I think he'll be selected.

Right or wrong it won't be the 1st time a coach (Lions, Country or Club) has shown faith in a player us fans have questioned.

What will prove more decisive is if he has the crystals to sub Warburton if he's off the pace against Oz and then not pick him for 2nd test if hes not upto it.

I do like it when i see comments like 'Tipuric is the form 7' or 'Warburton hasn't shown much'...Tipuric has shone in games played against the worst opposition possible. Warburton played one game and it was against the strongest team so far who played the type of game which have made even the fittest of players struggle, let alone one playing his first game in 6+ weeks.


See how he goes on saturday and how tipuric does against the toughest game he'll probably play to date.

Tipuric has been on form... before and during the Lions tour. Warburton has carried a 7 week injury up to last week... and whatever you say it was clear that he wasn't match fit.
That often takes a few games so if he improves on Saturday then perhaps its worth taking a punt on him.

Its nothing against Warburton.... on form he's a better player and a worthy captain. Off-form he doubts himself and that drags the team down... see how it impacted Wales this year... Howley stripped the captaincy off him as it was impacting both him and the team.... I don't think you could do the same now and not impact his form though...
he can't play without the captaincy if he starts... that would wreck him and 7 is such a key position.

Calder, Hastings, Johnson, O'Driscoll, O'Connell.... all of them were standouts, fit and on form at the time of the first test.

Warburton is neither standout, fit or on form. Its a big job, a big role and people realise this. People said the above issue would happen given Warburton was given the captaincy.

The coach being close to the captain is not necessary.

McGeechan was very close to Hastings in 1993... it was a very fractured tour and Hastings & Co struggled to control the players. On the flip side McGeechan didn't know Johnson in 1997 and the tour right the way through was united and successful both on and off the pitch (from accounts).

If warburton doesn't perform on saturday then he shouldn't start in the 1st test, it's as simple as that. But i feel he's due a big game and if he does, he starts because he will have done well against tough opposition rather than in 60+ point routs. Tipuric has carried his 6N form to the tour but it's hard to gauge how good a player really is when he's not playing the tougher games. Cuthbert scored 2 against the barbarians and scored a couple more in oz...but against real opposition in the reds he was outplayed by monahan and was ineffective the whole game. The ideal situation would have been warburton fit at the start, you'd be able to gauge him and tipuric fairly but because of the injury he got it's not really fair to compare the two players because 1 has played 3 games against rubbish opposition and the other has only played 1 game but against the toughest.

The tougher decision ahead is at number 8, faletau and heaslip are probably at the same level of form and impact and have played a lot in this tour.