Lets talk about Wales!

First topic message reminder :

We knew Wales can win European grand slams and championships, but the monkey on the back of the players was for them to win in the Southern hemisphere. In all fairness that has now been accomplished.

So many of them have played a huge part in this series, surely now Gatland and these players can go to the next level?

15 Leigh Halfpenny
14 Alex Cuthbert
13 Jonathan Davies
12 Jamie Roberts
11 George North
10
9 Mike Phillips
8 Toby Faletau
7 Sam Warburton
6 Dan Lydiate
5
4 Alun-Wyn Jones
3 Adam Jones
2 Richard Hibbard
1

It's quite incredible that all of these players have now started a test game and won in Australia. While Gethin Jenkins probably would of played some role had he stayed fit.

This could be a massive shot in the arm to these players and maybe a new golden era dawn for us!  

The Saint wrote:Looking at the Lions team in the final test we need to decide who can come in and do the jobs that Corbs and SOB did. I think we're covered at 7 and if Jenkins can remain free from injury then he will be a great addition if he replicates last years 6 Nations form. I'm not so sure about Paul James after the AI's, I think Gill would be a much better option.
The halfbacks need change. I'm a big fan of Phillips but this tour showed that age has caught up with him, he is not the player he once was. Lloyd Williams is one of a small few to enhance his reputation in Japan. The other picks should be the form No.9's like Jonny Evans and Gareth Davies; GD in particular is suited to 'Gatlandball.' It shocks me that he is so often overlooked. RP and Biggar also play this Gatlandball quite well. Going forward our best 10's should be Priestland and Patchell, they're capable of releasing the backs,this is where Biggar falls short.
Physically dominating teams for 60 then going in for the kill in the final quarter is predictable and easier said than done but it can be extremely effective. The question is can we do that to teams like South Africa?

The make up of the backrow is key too. Boy, do we have some tidy options...! Tips, Warburton and Faletau was a great balance in my opinion, but with options like Lydiate, Ryan Jones and Shingler, as well as cover in lads like Nalvidi, Evans youngsters like Baker and Ieuan Jones... That is a very exciting selection debate about to happen. Especially as we know that the RWC is just round the corner.

It's Navidi, not Nalvidi. Save yourself some typing.  

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:It's Navidi, not Nalvidi. Save yourself some typing.  

I think Apple spell checker disagrees and the detail so minute without my specs on that its hard to notice.

But without purposelessly criticising spelling, what are your thoughts on how he fits in to the greater plan...?

If Warburton is out injured for a while Navidi has a chance of a day in the sun on the big stage. Though that said despite a huge call for him to start the second test in Tokyo he didnt do a job for Wales...!

He deserves more opportunity after a great regional season at the Blues, but maybe we need to look at other opensides as back up?

He had a great season for the blues last year and i just hope he continues to get better and better. Whether he get's a shot with Wales, i don't know - depends how fit sam is and if he isn't it makes sense to start tipuric with navidi on the bench.

It wasn't purposeless Maes, I was trying to save you some energy. Besides that, competition for places in the back row is great, but the bigger concern for me is the front row, especially who's going to replace Adam when he goes.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:It wasn't purposeless Maes, I was trying to save you some energy. Besides that, competition for places in the back row is great, but the bigger concern for me is the front row, especially who's going to replace Adam when he goes.

Ha ha ha...!

Tighthead is interesting too you are right. Mitchell, Andrews and Lee all look in the running. The under 20s had some great performances out of Nicky Thomas, another young Osprey. With good coaching from the new forwards guy from Waikato Chris Gibbes we could well see a talented youngster like Thomas make good ground. There is also Joe Ree's coming back from injury and Aaron Jarvis at the Ospreys.

I'd never thought much of Scott Andrews, but he came on early on against the All Blacks last year and it wasn't the disaster I was expecting. (Was he up against Tony Woodcock?) Whoever they go with, they need to start giving them game time sooner rather than later. We know Adam won't be around much longer, ranking points are meaningless now the draw for the World Cup's been made, so now's the time to give his potential successors a chance.

LP I was chatting with a friend the other day in London and he was very keen on Wales resting their star players too. Almost to the extent that the ABs are doing the same with McCaw and Carter...!

Maybe certain lads like Adam, Gethin, Ryan, Phillips would benefit from a less rigorous next two years in the build up to RWC 2015 ???

We did similar with the rapidly ageing Martyn Williams prior to RWC 2011 and in the process he was outplayed by Warburton and didn't even make the squad...!

Its not a bad idea at all... Gametime against top opposition makes players improve fast.

I've never really been a fan of the Autumn internationals anyway. Our priority should always be the Six Nations and if we're going to experiment, it should be in the Autumn. The problem is that we keep playing the best sides in the world in the Autumn so we can't afford to experiment without running the risk of a hiding. But now's the time to think long-term.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I've never really been a fan of the Autumn internationals anyway. Our priority should always be the Six Nations and if we're going to experiment, it should be in the Autumn. The problem is that we keep playing the best sides in the world in the Autumn so we can't afford to experiment without running the risk of a hiding. But now's the time to think long-term.

I agree that the main focus should be the 6 Nations BUT we can't afford another disastorous AI series like last year, winning breeds winners etc and we have to get that winning habit against all who is in front of us regardless of standard.

That said though it is hard to develop without the A Side and I would rather sacrifice a few AI wins if we say developed another T/Head or S/Half and like you LP I dreaded seeing Andrews on the sidelines last year but think he showed up really well.

I'd rather we sacrificed a couple of AIs than jeopardise the Six Nations, which unlike the AIs is a genuine tournament.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I'd rather we sacrificed a couple of AIs than jeopardise the Six Nations, which unlike the AIs is a genuine tournament.

The AIs are usually 'genuine' competition - in the sense that they tend to be against sides that matter in world terms and therefore you get a chance to see truly how far on you are in development of your side. 
I'd personally take a handful of thirds in Six Nations and more regular wins against top three in AIs or Summer games.  

We kinda navel gaze too much between the six of us.  It becomes almost incestuous and I for one have always argued against that limited view of what's important (especially when talking about Ireland's priorities).
I'd even go so far as say the Six Nations is where I'd like our experimentation (limited) to happen (player selection-wise/experience given etc) and try to sustain our stronger sides for the top three.

I'm a traditionalist, Fly. The Six Nations means a hell of a lot. The AIs don't. You can win all your AIs but you can't 'win the AIs.'

Nobody's talking about the new scrum rules. Who is going to be favoured by reducing the hit. Dunno but it's bound to impact on service and back line speed. Hope our 9s and 10s are up for it!

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I'm a traditionalist, Fly. The Six Nations means a hell of a lot. The AIs don't. You can win all your AIs but you can't 'win the AIs.'

HERE,HERE:clap: 

LordDowlais wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I'm a traditionalist, Fly. The Six Nations means a hell of a lot. The AIs don't. You can win all your AIs but you can't 'win the AIs.'

HERE,HERE 

   

we need a new front row after the world cup

jimmyinthewell68 wrote:we need a new front row after the world cup  

Having one now wouldn't go amiss. The fact remains that should Adam Jones get injured we lose a ton (literally and figuratively), which as we've seen numerous times in the past doesn't end well. In fact can anyone remember an important game we won without him? It's astounding how in the six years Gatland has been at the helm we still haven't managed to cough up an apt replacement from somewhere.

Knowsit17 wrote:

jimmyinthewell68 wrote:we need a new front row after the world cup  

Having one now wouldn't go amiss. The fact remains that should Adam Jones get injured we lose a ton (literally and figuratively), which as we've seen numerous times in the past doesn't end well. In fact can anyone remember an important game we won without him? It's astounding how in the six years Gatland has been at the helm we still haven't managed to cough up an apt replacement from somewhere.

It is hard to replace world class players, there arent many tightheads in this generation world wide that are better than Adam Jones. We have given good game time to Mitchell, Jarvis and Andrews in recent years and that is better than the option of a loosehead crossing over.

We arent in a bad situation and certainly have as much depth in the position as the teams around us in the rankings if not more.

SecretFly wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I'd rather we sacrificed a couple of AIs than jeopardise the Six Nations, which unlike the AIs is a genuine tournament.

The AIs are usually 'genuine' competition - in the sense that they tend to be against sides that matter in world terms and therefore you get a chance to see truly how far on you are in development of your side. 
I'd personally take a handful of thirds in Six Nations and more regular wins against top three in AIs or Summer games.  

We kinda navel gaze too much between the six of us.  It becomes almost incestuous and I for one have always argued against that limited view of what's important (especially when talking about Ireland's priorities).
I'd even go so far as say the Six Nations is where I'd like our experimentation (limited) to happen (player selection-wise/experience given etc) and try to sustain our stronger sides for the top three.

Fair point Fly,

Though i am inclined to agree that the seedings for the RWC are now established and that realistically makes the next Welsh squad for the RWC our main focus. Experimentation and giving new players time to establish themselves against top class opposition is paramount winning the Six Nations and our summer tours is probably more important than the AI's.

yes knowit i think we need to bring in the best replacements has subs even if they lack experience . the A I is the best time for that . unfortunately some aging players who never quite made first choice will have to be over looked

jimmyinthewell68 wrote:yes knowit  i think we need to bring in the best replacements has subs even if they lack experience . the A I  is the best time for that . unfortunately some aging players who never quite made first choice will have to be over looked

There are certainly a number of players who must be expendable from the squad. Lou Reed for one, McCusker has a lot to prove too, it is also unlikely that Rees or Charteris will have further involvement.

maestegmafia wrote:

jimmyinthewell68 wrote:yes knowit  i think we need to bring in the best replacements has subs even if they lack experience . the A I  is the best time for that . unfortunately some aging players who never quite made first choice will have to be over looked

There are certainly a number of players who must be expendable from the squad. Lou Reed for one, McCusker has a lot to prove too, it is also unlikely that Rees or Charteris will have further involvement.

agreed . if they dont make the first fifteen and they not a strong bench option then gat will have to look at the under 20s .

Scott Andrews has been good the last few times he has played for Wales. He doesn't do it regularly for the Blues though, hardly ever if I'm honest. He needs to up his game if he wants to have the chance of ousting Adam Jones; and for that he faces competition from Mitchell, Jarvis, Lee (and I would like to add Rob Evans here whom I believe is actually capable of switching to TH). Andrews should be pulling up trees for the Blues now, he'll be in a front 5 with Jenkins, Rees, Davies and Paulo.

jimmyinthewell68 wrote:we need a new front row after the world cup  

Props at least though Gill is young enough and I would give him game time now, think we are ok in hooker stakes.

Biltong wrote:

Maes, it doesn't matter what the other NH teams did in the SH, their performances is irrelevant to Wales. I disagree with you that Wales doesn't need a fortress.

You are concerned about the RWC 2015, let me ask you this, do you want Wales to become a world beating team or just stand a chance to win the 2015 RWC?

either way the process start by winning home matches against SH teams, that is the easiest way to do it and the logical process to follow, beat OZ, SA and NZ at home with Your support base there to edge them. Then win away from home.

The likely hood is at some point you will meet SA, OZ or NZ during the play offs, if you go into that match still not having given the monkey a spanking, I sincerely doubt the team will have the necessary belief to do it at the world cup.

As for becoming a world force, it all start somewhere, where you have to dominate all and sundry at home, then away from home and only then will teams fear you.

Perhaps the idiom hasn't traversed the hemisphere well, but spanking the monkey and getting the monkey off one's back are two very different things...?

The Saint wrote:Scott Andrews has been good the last few times he has played for Wales. He doesn't do it regularly for the Blues though, hardly ever if I'm honest. He needs to up his game if he wants to have the chance of ousting Adam Jones; and for that he faces competition from Mitchell, Jarvis, Lee (and I would like to add Rob Evans here whom I believe is actually capable of switching to TH). Andrews should be pulling up trees for the Blues now, he'll be in a front 5 with Jenkins, Rees, Davies and Paulo.

Paulo ?

Isn't that a film about a talking parrot?

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I'm a traditionalist, Fly. The Six Nations means a hell of a lot. The AIs don't. You can win all your AIs but you can't 'win the AIs.'

Hmm I'd put it the other way around. You have proven you can win the 6 nations but its been tough work winning an AI let alone all of them. Traditionally that's why the NH teams have struggled to reach/stay at the top of rugby.

Wales, after winning a couple of 6 Nations, are still relatively lowly ranked because they haven't managed to take that step up to beating the top teams. So for Gatland an his boys his only decent target for the coming season is to retain the 6 Nations and win a few of the AIs. To be the best you have to beat the best

maestegmafia wrote:

The Saint wrote:Scott Andrews has been good the last few times he has played for Wales. He doesn't do it regularly for the Blues though, hardly ever if I'm honest. He needs to up his game if he wants to have the chance of ousting Adam Jones; and for that he faces competition from Mitchell, Jarvis, Lee (and I would like to add Rob Evans here whom I believe is actually capable of switching to TH). Andrews should be pulling up trees for the Blues now, he'll be in a front 5 with Jenkins, Rees, Davies and Paulo.

Paulo ?

Filo Paulo

wales606 wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

The Saint wrote:Scott Andrews has been good the last few times he has played for Wales. He doesn't do it regularly for the Blues though, hardly ever if I'm honest. He needs to up his game if he wants to have the chance of ousting Adam Jones; and for that he faces competition from Mitchell, Jarvis, Lee (and I would like to add Rob Evans here whom I believe is actually capable of switching to TH). Andrews should be pulling up trees for the Blues now, he'll be in a front 5 with Jenkins, Rees, Davies and Paulo.

Paulo ?

Filo Paulo

Hopefully a good signing, young and played for some good clubs.

And is a starter for Samoa.

Does anyone remember this tune.

"Let's talk about Wales Baby,
Let's talk about North, baby,
Let's talk about halfpenny
And davies, baby"

That's so cringe worthy.

You're all wrong. An AI victory over NZ would trump any slam. Rugby is a world game. Keep up!

I would take wins against SA, Oz and Argentina in the AI's over a GS in 2014, every day of the week. dont need to beat the NH boys, done that for the past 2 years, time to start beating the SH sides. Wins against them will obviously give us even great confidence going into the 6N's so who knows then.

It would be great to see this Wales team really give the 2015 World Cup a go. There is no other team that has more talent than they do - and I am English. They just have to have that belief and "arrogance" that they are that good. I really hope they do. This England team will by 2015 be good, but Wales could be great.

     


laff of the week. Cheers dude!

Norfolklass wrote:You're all wrong. An AI victory over NZ would trump any slam.  Rugby is a world game. Keep up!

Well we are waiting another year for that anyway M.

Still, a win v the other two big powers would be nice, but I'd still settle for losing a friendly (particularly without meaningful ranking points now) rather than not winning the Six Nations again.

Norfolklass wrote:You're all wrong. An AI victory over NZ would trump any slam.  Rugby is a world game. Keep up!

A victory over NZ would be a great result, but we aren't playing them this Autumn so I can not see it happening in 2013...!

Sorry its the 6 Nations for me everytime, the AIs (especially the 4th game) are generally just money making schemes for the WRU but that said we can't afford top have another AI series like we had last year.

Winning breeds confidence.

bedfordwelsh wrote:Sorry its the 6 Nations for me everytime, the AIs (especially the 4th game) are generally just money making schemes for the WRU but that said we can't afford top have another AI series like we had last year.

Winning breeds confidence.

Agreed, the confidence from the Lions tour should help massively when it comes to playing Argentina, SA and the Wallabies.

So far, I don't think we are suffering any post lions tour injury's other than Warburton and Gethin....! Both have experienced and very talented back ups.

out of the six nations games the Ireland game should be interesting  

bedfordwelsh wrote:Sorry its the 6 Nations for me everytime, the AIs (especially the 4th game) are generally just money making schemes for the WRU but that said we can't afford top have another AI series like we had last year.

Winning breeds confidence.

for Wales to become a big fish in the big pond the wins must come against the SH three, otherwise they will always just be a big fish in a small pond.

Biltong wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:Sorry its the 6 Nations for me everytime, the AIs (especially the 4th game) are generally just money making schemes for the WRU but that said we can't afford top have another AI series like we had last year.

Winning breeds confidence.

for Wales to become a big fish in the big pond the wins must come against the SH three, otherwise they will always just be a big fish in a small pond.

Bill

There are Six teams in our championship, four in yours, surely we have the bigger of the two ponds? Unless you count geographical distance I suppose...

Big pond or small, we all agree with your point in Wales needing to give SH teams a taste of what it's like to lose in Cardiff. But the Six nations will always be a bugger deal than the AIs. Same for you guys and the rugby championship.

The six nations is one of the most prestigious tournaments in sport, the Autumn Internationals are just mid season friendlies.

Risca Rev wrote:

Norfolklass wrote:You're all wrong. An AI victory over NZ would trump any slam.  Rugby is a world game. Keep up!

Well we are waiting another year for that anyway M.

Still, a win v the other two big powers would be nice, but I'd still settle for losing a friendly (particularly without meaningful ranking points now) rather than not winning the Six Nations again.

What's a friendly? Is that a game you think you're going to lose? For me all matches have meaning and they all have psychological points up for offer. Don't tell me this November test against Australia is a friendly, for example, given the context of all the matches that have gone before it in recent times.

maestegmafia wrote:

Biltong wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:Sorry its the 6 Nations for me everytime, the AIs (especially the 4th game) are generally just money making schemes for the WRU but that said we can't afford top have another AI series like we had last year.

Winning breeds confidence.

for Wales to become a big fish in the big pond the wins must come against the SH three, otherwise they will always just be a big fish in a small pond.

Bill

There are Six teams in our championship, four in yours, surely we have the bigger of the two ponds? Unless you count geographical distance I suppose...

Big pond or small, we all agree with your point in Wales needing to give SH teams a taste of what it's like to lose in Cardiff. But the Six nations will always be a bugger deal than the AIs. Same for you guys and the rugby championship.

The six nations is one of the most prestigious tournaments in sport, the Autumn Internationals are just mid season friendlies.

maes I am talking in a world context, the Six nations is historically likely the most prestigious tournament in the world, but the big pond relates not to the Rugby Campionship but the entire entity that is world rugby.

The 6N one of the most prestigious tournaments in sport? I think not.

The most prestigious annual tournament in rugby, in terms of tradition, I'll give you that. But let's not get carried away when it comes to world sport! Most people don't even know what rugby is let alone be able to name a tournament.

I can't help but feel you're undermining what relevance these November internationals has. England beat NZ last November. I don't mind telling you that hurt a lot, especially the manner in which they beat us. I didn't say after the game, oh well just a friendly. Didn't mean anything. At least we won the RC without losing a game. That's what counts.

Sorry mate but it doesn't work like that. Last year your captain Warburton said he aimed to win every game in November. I didn't have a problem with that. At least he recognised the significance of the matches. It seems that some here can dismiss these failures in November because they prefer to gloss over their team's failings. Well if you want to be a team that matters on the world stage, I think you'll find that it's the losses that stand out and not the victories. Just think of what that statement means before you write the word friendly again. There's no such thing if you've got serious claims to the rugby throne.

I meant in rugby Kia.  

Biltong wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

Biltong wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:Sorry its the 6 Nations for me everytime, the AIs (especially the 4th game) are generally just money making schemes for the WRU but that said we can't afford top have another AI series like we had last year.

Winning breeds confidence.

for Wales to become a big fish in the big pond the wins must come against the SH three, otherwise they will always just be a big fish in a small pond.

Bill

There are Six teams in our championship, four in yours, surely we have the bigger of the two ponds? Unless you count geographical distance I suppose...

Big pond or small, we all agree with your point in Wales needing to give SH teams a taste of what it's like to lose in Cardiff. But the Six nations will always be a bugger deal than the AIs. Same for you guys and the rugby championship.

The six nations is one of the most prestigious tournaments in sport, the Autumn Internationals are just mid season friendlies.

maes I am talking in a world context, the Six nations is historically likely the most prestigious tournament in the world, but the big pond relates not to the Rugby Campionship but the entire entity that is world rugby.

In a world context we have to win all our games, six nations or otherwise, just like everyone else, just as we have always aspired. There is no change.

It is not as though Wales have not been trying incredibly hard to beat the teams they have lost too, it just didnt happen, whether they were weaker for one reason or another. They have another chance to beat some of those teams this Autumn, we in Wales all hope they do.

But from a rugby perspective more is gained from the Six Nations. It is a proper tournament every game counts massively. To win the Six Nations three years in a row would be a huge result for Wales, and not an easy one. It was hard enough winning three on the road then smashing England in this years tournament...