Lets talk about Wales!

First topic message reminder :

We knew Wales can win European grand slams and championships, but the monkey on the back of the players was for them to win in the Southern hemisphere. In all fairness that has now been accomplished.

So many of them have played a huge part in this series, surely now Gatland and these players can go to the next level?

15 Leigh Halfpenny
14 Alex Cuthbert
13 Jonathan Davies
12 Jamie Roberts
11 George North
10
9 Mike Phillips
8 Toby Faletau
7 Sam Warburton
6 Dan Lydiate
5
4 Alun-Wyn Jones
3 Adam Jones
2 Richard Hibbard
1

It's quite incredible that all of these players have now started a test game and won in Australia. While Gethin Jenkins probably would of played some role had he stayed fit.

This could be a massive shot in the arm to these players and maybe a new golden era dawn for us!  

Yes Maes, agree Wales as a team have endevoured to win all their games, however bedfordwelsh suggested the AI's aren't that important for him, which is where I disagree totally.

I look at SA and want them to be unbeatable at home, no matter when the match takes place or who the opponents are.

i seriously think Wales will be stronger mentally now to play the top 3 sh teams since the lions   . our best bet would be against south Africa .   again the wru booked Australia out of the window so that's another lost . Wales need a sh scalp like hibbard needs a haircut . i did say previously  that Wales could experiment but after reading logical posts Im starting to agree we need to  win one of the big boys

No one is dismissing the 6n. Back to back wins was an incredible feat especially considering how Wales opened their game. Winning three in a row would be incredible. Has it ever been done before?

All I'm saying is that the term friendly implies that the match is devoid of meaning. If Wales were to beat NZ at home say in 2014 you wouldn't attach meaning to it because it didn't have a tournament attached to it? Beating Australia this November wouldn't be as important as a 6n victory? Beating a SH side in a June test is just a bit of fun and games and only 6n wins carry any weight. Not if you win those kinds of games. Not if you can actually prove Wales is capable of beating any side. Not because of their potential but because of their record. You need a ruthless attitude to be considered at the top and part of that is erasing the word friendly from your vocabulary.

It truly is about competing and winning against the SH. If wales want to think they are the top dog in the North because they win the 6n's yet other NH teams actually can beat the SH then they are miles of base..

Anyway as Bilt says being Top dog in the North means nothing. Its about competing in the WC's . France and England have 6 finals and 1 win between them. A couple of GS's means nothing in comparison.

Good Luck Wales BTW. Good team. But calm down a bit. You have a lot to prove.

One shouldn't dismiss the 6N wins either oakey and put all your eggs in the RWC basket. France have made 3 finals but have yet to win. They would gladly take some of the consistency in the 6n as well as emphasize those achievements in the RWC. EVERY game counts.

mystiroakey wrote:It truly is about competing and winning against the SH. If wales want to think they are the top dog in the North because they win the 6n's yet other NH teams actually can beat the SH then they are miles of base..

Anyway as Bilt says being Top dog in the North means nothing. Its about competing in the WC's . France and England have 6 finals and 1 win between them. A couple of GS's means nothing in comparison.

Good Luck Wales BTW. Good team. But calm down a bit. You have a lot to prove.

It would be a bit unrealistic to say that other six nations teams are better than Wales a team they regularly lose to because of the occasional flukes result against a SH team?

I don't dismiss it at all. No one does Kia. I don't want to taint all Welsh fans here- But many seem to make there achievements sound more important what ever it is. If they beat Aus and lost the 6nations. You would here them saying that is more important!!

And the standard NZ fan (especially pre 2011 win) would tell you its all about every game not just the WC.

For SA , Aus and England it has always been about the WC!

Mystir for me it about every test, always no matter who, where, what format. In my view there is no such thing as a friendly, it is a test, and when we lose I am in a real bad mood.

maestegmafia wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:It truly is about competing and winning against the SH. If wales want to think they are the top dog in the North because they win the 6n's yet other NH teams actually can beat the SH then they are miles of base..

Anyway as Bilt says being Top dog in the North means nothing. Its about competing in the WC's . France and England have 6 finals and 1 win between them. A couple of GS's means nothing in comparison.

Good Luck Wales BTW. Good team. But calm down a bit. You have a lot to prove.

It would be a bit unrealistic to say that other six nations teams are better than Wales a team they regularly lose to because of the occasional flukes result against a SH team?

That is a circular argument that never works mate.. Wales beat england, france beat wales, england beat france etc etc. Look at the rankings and you have the more perfect gauge!

Biltong wrote:Mystir for me it about every test, always no matter who, where, what format. In my view there is no such thing as a friendly, it is a test, and when we lose I am in a real bad mood.

You are right that every test is important. But the WC is the pinnacle- Yes or No?

What would you prefer a 90% win rate and a wc loss or a 60% win rate and a wc win?- over say a 2 year period

In fact, even when we win, but play stupidly I am in a bad mood.


I have been in a bad mood since 1998 November.  

You want perfection don't you. just watch more Cricket then Bilt!!

I'll take a 90% win rate over the RWC, we got two already, we don't have a 90% win rate.

mystiroakey wrote:You want perfection don't you. just watch more Cricket then Bilt!!

yeah, our cricket team has been awesome for the past 6 years.

so you would trade your wc wins for a 90% WR?

Yep, the RWC is just a trophy, a 90% win rate is a legacy.

you would then be called chokers- that would be your only legacy!!

mystiroakey wrote:so you would trade your wc wins for a 90% WR?

Who on earth has a 90% win rate? New Zealand have the best and their 75%.

no one shifty. I didn't say anyone did- however i did say over a 2 year period.

mystiroakey wrote:you would then be called chokers- that would be your only legacy!!

doesn't phase me, I rather be happy nine out of ten tests than jump around twice in my life.

If you won 9 out of 10 - wins would become unimportant and wouldn't make you happy- losses however would make you really grumpy!

I am grumpy already, not much will change then.  

If you are grumpy it doesn't say much for 95% of the Golf regulars, and 60% of the forum regulars. You come across like a ray of sunshine mate!(albeit a small one!!) compared to many!

You have already ruined our lad trebs on the cricket forum!! You might as well have prescribed him 60 mill of citalopram!

Yeah well, I manage to control my emotions better than most.  

SO you are a fake!!

Or is it part of the mod job!

i would take the 2011 world cup over the 2012 six nations any day of the week but it was never meant to be . we slaughtered France in the next game and who knows what would have happened against a under par New Zealand side

you did very well Jimmy- very well. Even I and most of England was gutted for you!

mystiroakey wrote:SO you are a fake!!

Or is it part of the mod job!

neither, I just believe that in life you treat people with respect and don't judge them. If you treat people the way you want to be treated then life is less complicated and more satisfying.  

Yep yep good point!

mystiroakey wrote:Yep yep good point!

not wanting to impose my life's philosophy on you but there are three things In society I cannot stand, disrespectful people, pretentious people and arrogance.

When I was a young man before I learnt wisdom my fists did more talking than my brain, these days I manage to take them on with witticism, sarcasm and humour.

No its fine you are spot on. I try to have your life approach. I do try, I just find it really tough sometimes. Never ever used my fists though., Just my mouth or fingers  

I grew up quite poor, had to work hard and fight hard to build my own business, through my career I have met a lot of wealthy people thinking they are above the law or beyond reproach, One Friday afternoon whilst having a braai we were invited to the very wealthy guys house to play snooker.

He loved to brag and showoff. I was 26 at the the time. After a game of snooker he turns to me and said in this dismissive manner that I looked like I can play a bit, so why don't we put money on the table.

This was in the early nineties. So he says how about R500 (it was equivalent to my grocery bill for the month.

So I turn to him and said he must be }#%^ nuts, R500 may be nothing to him, but to me it was a lot.

So the guy that took us there says to me I can't talk to this guy like that it is disrespecful, I basically said to him , F him, because he has money it gives him the right to be disrepsectful.

Needless to say it didn't turn out pleasant, in those days my fuse eas a bit short.

Well that is fair enough bilt. He probably deserved it. I would have been the type to take him on at that bet though, or reduce it at the least!

True, now I would, as you say there are two ways you beat a man down, then I wasn't wise enough.

so i take it bill you not that good of a snooker player or you would have handed is a**e on a plate . i dont blame you getting angry i hate people like that who look down on other people because they got money . happens a lot where i live in the valleys .

jimmyinthewell68 wrote:so i take it bill you not that good of a snooker  player or you would have handed is a**e on a plate .   i dont blame you getting angry    i hate people like that  who look down on other people because they got money . happens a lot where i live in the valleys .

i am not to shabby, he wasn't either, but like you say it was like throwing a red flag at me.

Oakey I want World Cup wins and as many wins in between. Losing should hurt and to me it does. RWC losses but others as well.

To me picking and choosing which losses are fine and which wins are the ones that count simply means you're not winning enough. That may sound like arrogance but that is the belief I have in my team and the pride I have in their legacy.

Kia I think it has more to do with the standard you expect from your team than belief.

My belief in the aboks at times are at all time lows, especially the past few years, but the standard I expect them to perform at never changes.

The belief is always there BB even though the standard varies. In the 90s or 2009 against SA things looked sketchy. But the belief was always there. Kia kaha has always been my motto but it has more relevance when things are bad.

I personally think the welsh team is slightly overrated. They have played some great stuff recently but have also turned in some woefull performances. Many go on about the fact they got to the semi final of he world cup. However they also LOST 3 games during that period and only won one game of note, their 1/4 final. Wales pulle out a great win to smash England to win the championship on points difference, however Wales came off the back of a 7 game loosing streak including losses to Ireland, Samoa Argentina and Australia all at home. The fact Wales lost a game to Japan in he last month or so an the fact the regions are just terrible also isn't great.

maestegmafia wrote:In a world context we have to win all our games, six nations or otherwise, just like everyone else, just as we have always aspired. There is no change.

It is not as though Wales have not been trying incredibly hard to beat the teams they have lost too, it just didnt happen, whether they were weaker for one reason or another. They have another chance to beat some of those teams this Autumn, we in Wales all hope they do.

But from a rugby perspective more is gained from the Six Nations. It is a proper tournament every game counts massively.

Exactly right. The point is that we need to start planning for the future and that involves giving meaningful game time to those players who might become the successors to players like Adam Jones, Gethin Jenkins and Mike Phillips (who may have played his last game for Wales already). In an ideal world we'd be able to do that and still win every match, but in reality that experimentation might make us, in the short term, weaker. The question then is, in which matches should we experiment: in a series of one-off matches, or in a tournament with a trophy at stake? For me, it's a no-brainer.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:No one is dismissing the 6n. Back to back wins was an incredible feat especially considering how Wales opened their game. Winning three in a row would be incredible. Has it ever been done before?

All I'm saying is that the term friendly implies that the match is devoid of meaning. If Wales were to beat NZ at home say in 2014 you wouldn't attach meaning to it because it didn't have a tournament attached to it? Beating Australia this November wouldn't be as important as a 6n victory? Beating a SH side in a June test is just a bit of fun and games and only 6n wins carry any weight. Not if you win those kinds of games. Not if you can actually prove Wales is capable of beating any side. Not because of their potential but because of their record. You need a ruthless attitude to be considered at the top and part of that is erasing the word friendly from your vocabulary.

But as I said, in a game without meaningful ranking points and not part of a major tournament, it is not much different to playing a friendly. Particularly when we play Australia without a lot of our stars, it doesn't really add much to the fixture either.

I don't like losing these games, but they don't hurt/anger me half as much as they do when we lose in the Six Nations.

Risca Rev wrote:

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:No one is dismissing the 6n. Back to back wins was an incredible feat especially considering how Wales opened their game. Winning three in a row would be incredible. Has it ever been done before?

All I'm saying is that the term friendly implies that the match is devoid of meaning. If Wales were to beat NZ at home say in 2014 you wouldn't attach meaning to it because it didn't have a tournament attached to it? Beating Australia this November wouldn't be as important as a 6n victory? Beating a SH side in a June test is just a bit of fun and games and only 6n wins carry any weight. Not if you win those kinds of games. Not if you can actually prove Wales is capable of beating any side. Not because of their potential but because of their record. You need a ruthless attitude to be considered at the top and part of that is erasing the word friendly from your vocabulary.

But as I said, in a game without meaningful ranking points and not part of a major tournament, it is not much different to playing a friendly. Particularly when we play Australia without a lot of our stars, it doesn't really add much to the fixture either.

I don't like losing these games, but they don't hurt/anger me half as much as they do when we lose in the Six Nations.

No such things as a friendly in Union Internationals, each one is a cap to the players. Possibly the fingers should be pointed at our coaches and the professional era, but a test match is still a test match.

I would imagine we will put out our strongest possible side against SA and if Possible Australia with (for me) a few subtle changes in the other two.

We def need to give a L/Head and T/Head some gametime along with a No9 but god knows who because the ones who have been involved at No9 of late don't IMO cut it.

wrfc1980 wrote:I personally think the welsh team is slightly overrated. They have played some great stuff recently but have also turned in some woefull performances. Many go on about the fact they got to the semi final of he world cup. However they also LOST 3 games during that period and only won one game of note, their 1/4 final. Wales pulle out a great win to smash England to win the championship on points difference, however Wales came off the back of a 7 game loosing streak including losses to Ireland, Samoa Argentina and Australia all at home. The fact Wales lost a game to Japan in he last month or so an the fact the regions are just terrible also isn't great.

We know. You come back every few months and repeat yourself over and over. I see you've given it a bit longer since your last visit though (probably to get over your 30-3 drubbing).

 

Biltong wrote:I grew up quite poor, had to work hard and fight hard to build my own business, through my career I have met a lot of wealthy people thinking they are above the law or beyond reproach, One Friday afternoon whilst having a braai we were invited to the very wealthy guys house to play snooker.

He loved to brag and showoff. I was 26 at the the time. After a game of snooker he turns to me and said in this dismissive manner that I looked like I can play a bit, so why don't we put money on the table.

This was in the early nineties. So he says how about R500 (it was equivalent to my grocery bill for the month.

So I turn to him and said he must be }#%^ nuts, R500 may be nothing to him, but to me it was a lot.

So the guy that took us there says to me I can't talk to this guy like that it is disrespecful, I basically said to him , F him, because he has money it gives him the right to be disrepsectful.

Needless to say it didn't turn out pleasant, in those days my fuse eas a bit short.

Now you've gone up in my estimations ('cos you sound like me) - Social injustice, inequality, arrogance and self-rightgeous behaviour are on the increase (and I'm not talking about Gibson!) as we lurch further and further to the right of the political agenda. Your past has shaped and made you and it's great to remain connected to it irrespective of success in whatever you may do.

 

RubyGuby wrote: 

Biltong wrote:I grew up quite poor, had to work hard and fight hard to build my own business, through my career I have met a lot of wealthy people thinking they are above the law or beyond reproach, One Friday afternoon whilst having a braai we were invited to the very wealthy guys house to play snooker.

He loved to brag and showoff. I was 26 at the the time. After a game of snooker he turns to me and said in this dismissive manner that I looked like I can play a bit, so why don't we put money on the table.

This was in the early nineties. So he says how about R500 (it was equivalent to my grocery bill for the month.

So I turn to him and said he must be }#%^ nuts, R500 may be nothing to him, but to me it was a lot.

So the guy that took us there says to me I can't talk to this guy like that it is disrespecful, I basically said to him , F him, because he has money it gives him the right to be disrepsectful.

Needless to say it didn't turn out pleasant, in those days my fuse eas a bit short.

Now you've gone up in my estimations ('cos you sound like me) - Social injustice, inequality, arrogance and self-rightgeous behaviour are on the increase (and I'm not talking about Gibson!) as we lurch further and further to the right of the political agenda. Your past has shaped and made you and it's great to remain connected to it irrespective of success in whatever you may do.

 

We have to learn from our experiences, don't we?

Else why are we here?

 I'm not sure it's about learning from our experiences - from your example it's about not succumbing to arrogance from the well to do's in life - that shows a strong sense of self and a strong will - They are very good traits to have. It means you can't be bought and money and cowpat doesn't impress you. I like that. Although I'm sure some of my BS in the past has certainly hit a chord (in a rugby sense that is)

True, but is it not through experiences and observation that we form our values and principles in life?

I have the opinion thatwhen a person grows up by around the time that you become a teenager and self aware, one of two things happen, either you accept the status quo or you question what happens around you and start forming your set of values.

I like to use the example of the one kid who grows up in an environment where (in SA we call this the 1, 2, 3 people) your dad goes to work, comes back from work, grabs the 1 litre Brandy, 2 litre coke and disappears to the garage where he is constantly working on his 3 litre ford, when drunk he comes back to the house and in his drunken stupor he starts panelbeating the wife and kids.

So the first kid accepts this is how things should be and repeats it all. The second kid thinks to himself there must be more to life than this and through observation he comes to learn life is much more complex than this and finds his own set of values, ambitions etc.

 

Biltong wrote:True, but is it not through experiences and observation that we form our values and principles in life?

I have the opinion thatwhen a person grows up by around the time that you become a teenager and self aware, one of two things happen, either you accept the status quo or you question what happens around you and start forming your set of values.

I like to use the example of the one kid who grows up in an environment where (in SA we call this the 1, 2, 3 people) your dad goes to work, comes back from work, grabs the 1 litre Brandy, 2 litre coke and disappears to the garage where he is constantly working on his 3 litre ford, when drunk he comes back to the house and in his drunken stupor he starts panelbeating the wife and kids.

So the first kid accepts this is how things should be and repeats it all. The second kid thinks to himself there must be more to life than this and through observation he comes to learn life is much more complex than this and finds his own set of values, ambitions etc.