Lets talk about Wales!

First topic message reminder :

We knew Wales can win European grand slams and championships, but the monkey on the back of the players was for them to win in the Southern hemisphere. In all fairness that has now been accomplished.

So many of them have played a huge part in this series, surely now Gatland and these players can go to the next level?

15 Leigh Halfpenny
14 Alex Cuthbert
13 Jonathan Davies
12 Jamie Roberts
11 George North
10
9 Mike Phillips
8 Toby Faletau
7 Sam Warburton
6 Dan Lydiate
5
4 Alun-Wyn Jones
3 Adam Jones
2 Richard Hibbard
1

It's quite incredible that all of these players have now started a test game and won in Australia. While Gethin Jenkins probably would of played some role had he stayed fit.

This could be a massive shot in the arm to these players and maybe a new golden era dawn for us!  

Biltong wrote:

Cyril wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:Maes,

We will have to agree to dis-agree on this one as if Adam is out then I am not yet convinced that the back up we have would really be upto it against the big guns.

L/Head I am happy with in that we have James Jenkins and Gill

Bevington too.

Our back up tightheads are obviously not as strong as Adam Jones, not many first choice international Tightheads are.

But we have a few lads who have proven they can fill the roll at international level, as you said yourself. That is a far better situation to be in than mist countries who literally have no depth whatsoever at Tighthead.

Never one to slip into exaggeration and hyperbole for effect, eh maes?

Sa actually falls in that category. After Jannie du Plessis we have not one experienced tight head. So yeah, we have no depth at tight head.

It's not true of England though. Dave Wilson is a very capable back-up to Cole.

Great news...!

ESPN wrote:British & Irish Lions skipper Sam Warburton has said he is "on course" for a return to action in the second round of the Heineken Cup.

http://www.espn.co.uk/wales/rugby/story/193253.html

Yeah delighted for Sam. Hope he's not rushed back, but it would be good to have him available for selection.

Risca Rev wrote:Yeah delighted for Sam. Hope he's not rushed back, but it would be good to have him available for selection.

Will make a huge difference to The Blues and to Wales.

For me (but not Gatland) my pecking order would be:

James
Jenkins
Gill
Bevington

bedfordwelsh wrote:For me (but not Gatland) my pecking order would be:

James
Jenkins
Gill
Bevington

Unless Geth is at his best this season then I agree. But an inform Gethin is a wonderful player...

Maes,

I agree but and maybe its due to his lack of gametime he has or had lost that edge to his game in the lose that made him what he was.

On pure scrimmaging ability I would always pick James but it was Geths lose play that always edged him above his peers.

bedfordwelsh wrote:Maes,

I agree but and maybe its due to his lack of gametime he has or had lost that edge to his game in the lose that made him what he was.

On pure scrimmaging ability I would always pick James but it was Geths lose play that always edged him above his peers.

Completely agree, his move back to the Blues will be good for him. More game time and an environment that knows how to use him.

Looks like Sam will be missed again. But the Blues and Wales aren't short on class back row players.
I don't want him to be rushed into the team like we did against Australia, we still have Tips, Dan and Ryan so i hope he takes his time to recover.

maestegmafia wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:Maes,

I agree but and maybe its due to his lack of gametime he has or had lost that edge to his game in the lose that made him what he was.

On pure scrimmaging ability I would always pick James but it was Geths lose play that always edged him above his peers.

Completely agree, his move back to the Blues will be good for him. More game time and an environment that knows how to use him.

I don't see why people see Gethin as a weaker scrummager than Paul because i would say they are on par with eachtoher (it's just Gethin loose play that edges him form Paul) . Gethin's lack of game time and his mistreatment at Toulon clearly hindered his world class form.
Let's not forget that this man has been the best Looshead of the 21st century (decade); It might seem biased me saying that as  a welsh man but a lot of foreign friends and commentators also agree. In words, he was the first modern day prop. He is great in the loose as anyone knows and people do underestimate him come scrum time. I know Adam will always e the core of our scrum as long as he is around but Gethin and Adam work together so well.
Gethin will return to his world class self and I hope some welsh fans will remember what he has done for us in the past and that he is far from past it.
OK from last season was he one of the best Looseheads in the World? No, there were a lot of good props playing good rugby in europe and the Six Nations like Grant, Ayerza and Domingo. When someone hasn't played much rugby for a certain time, then they fall out of the lime light and get forgotten about.

Jhamer25 wrote:Looks like Sam will be missed again. But the Blues and Wales aren't short on class back row players.
I don't want him to be rushed into the team like we did against Australia, we still have Tips, Dan and Ryan so i hope he takes his time to recover.

BBC think Sam will be fit and available.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/23579282

jhamer,

Thats what am saying its always been Geths loose play that edged him but as a purely technical scrummager he has never been the bets.

Yes he can more than hold his own and then when you added that to his loose play thats what put him (at one time) amongst the best in the world.

Take that loose element away which he has lost due to injuries and lack of gametime then his scrummaging alone is not the best

i think Paul just got the edge over Jenkins at the scrummage but as pointed out Jenkins better in the loose .hes almost like a frustrated centre with his side steps and runs  

Gethin was superb in the Six Nations, I would be surprised if he wasnt back to top form pretty early in the season.

I thought Gethin scrummaged superbly against England and pretty much decided the pecking order of tightheads for the Lions. He has a lot of miles on the clock but should at his age be peaking as a scrummaging prop.

NL,

I think Adam himself had something to do with the pecking order of the T/heads not Coles one performance against Gethin.

Has Gethin fully recovered from his shin injury & back pre season training?
It seems to be a troublesome reoccurring injury over the last 3-4 years.

Gethin is back and has recovered Big trev. His shin is the only thing that worries me, im not sure whetehr he has has an opp on it but he does seem prone to get injured with his shin.
Yes Beford you are right, he was far far from his beat and i understand what you mean with his scrummaging. But I still believe he is a dominant scrummager like Paul
The six antions was a great example, in the Irish match he was far from himself. Then with a few games under his belt like Itlay and England, he was himself. When he has got games under his belt he will regain that form. It just annoyed me that Toulon wasted and mistreated him really.

Thanks Jhamer.
I know from experience with injuries particularly reoccurring ones that as you get older they get more difficult to manage.
It will be a fine line if Gethin needs games under his belt to regain form & manage the potential shin weakness.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:Thanks Jhamer.
I know from experience with injuries particularly reoccurring ones that as you get older they get more difficult to manage.
It will be a fine line if Gethin needs games under his belt to regain form & manage the potential shin weakness.

Similar injury to former England Lock Courtney Lawes.

Cyril wrote:

Biltong wrote:

Cyril wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:Maes,

We will have to agree to dis-agree on this one as if Adam is out then I am not yet convinced that the back up we have would really be upto it against the big guns.

L/Head I am happy with in that we have James Jenkins and Gill

Bevington too.

Our back up tightheads are obviously not as strong as Adam Jones, not many first choice international Tightheads are.

But we have a few lads who have proven they can fill the roll at international level, as you said yourself. That is a far better situation to be in than mist countries who literally have no depth whatsoever at Tighthead.

Never one to slip into exaggeration and hyperbole for effect, eh maes?

Sa actually falls in that category. After Jannie du Plessis we have not one experienced tight head. So yeah, we have no depth at tight head.

It's not true of England though. Dave Wilson is a very capable back-up to Cole.

A Baarrf player in the EPS ? Pull the other one, you'll have Lions players next

maestegmafia wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:Thanks Jhamer.
I know from experience with injuries particularly reoccurring ones that as you get older they get more difficult to manage.
It will be a fine line if Gethin needs games under his belt to regain form & manage the potential shin weakness.

Similar injury to former England Lock Courtney Lawes.

Former?

They figured out he was a flat track bully with little international class

Toadfish wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:Thanks Jhamer.
I know from experience with injuries particularly reoccurring ones that as you get older they get more difficult to manage.
It will be a fine line if Gethin needs games under his belt to regain form & manage the potential shin weakness.

Similar injury to former England Lock Courtney Lawes.

Former?

He has fallen out of the running a bit. Once the next Johnson now, what, fourth choice at best?

Fourth choice is putting it politely. Probably one of the worst international 2nd rows I've ever seen, and so overrated.

Don't really care what you think of him, he played he last England game and is in the current England squad. To call him former is just being a bit thick.

Toadfish wrote:Don't really care what you think of him, he played he last England game and is in the current England squad. To call him former is just being a bit thick.

Cut out the insults. No need for that.

He came on as a last quarter substitute. I didn't watch the game.

Jhamer,

I don't think Toulon mis-treated him its just he didn't fit into their game plan and wanted the more destructive scrummaging Sheridan offers

maestegmafia wrote:

Toadfish wrote:Don't really care what you think of him, he played he last England game and is in the current England squad. To call him former is just being a bit thick.

Cut out the insults. No need for that.

He came on as a last quarter substitute. I didn't watch the game.

Yep he came on so he isn't a 'former lock'.
However, he has certainly fallen behind Launchbury who many thought was unlucky not to travel on the Lions tour & now possibly Attwood who showed up very well in Argentina.

The difference between the injuries to Gethin & Courtney are in Gethins case confined to one part of his anatomy & he is 32 whereas Courtney has had injuries all over his body & is 23.
The management is that much harder which is the point I was making.

Point was that they have the same injury

Do you think he can wear shin guards. Surly that would be a good idea

bedfordwelsh wrote:Jhamer,

I don't think Toulon mis-treated him its just he didn't fit into their game plan and wanted the more destructive scrummaging Sheridan offers

Anyway,
I feel he was, sorry. He didn't arrive their untill after everyone else had settled in and then he got a minor set back with an injury. Then to me, it seemed like they didn't care about him. They didn't even give him a real chance ti show what he was like after a run of games, but he didn't get a run of games; to be honest, i don't think he even got to consecutive starts. This cleary hindered on his fitness and probably led him to his worse fitness levels in years which showed in some games last year and this year.
To me he was a great talent that has been neglected because the rich fancy boys just wanted his name to be within their star cast of players.

maestegmafia wrote:Point was that they have the same injury

Albeit one is reoccurring & troublesome the other was like many other players a one off.

From the BBC


Ryan Jones keen to continue Wales career after summer off

Ryan Jones says he would "love" to play for Wales again after his first summer off for 10 years.
The Ospreys back-rower captained Wales in three of their 2013 Six Nations matches before missing the clash with England because of injury.

looking forward seeing Ryan play again but he got to be realistic and realise he prob a bench player unless 4 6 8 injured

jimmyinthewell68 wrote:looking forward seeing Ryan play again but he got to be realistic and realise he prob a bench player unless   4     6     8  injured

True, unless his form is good enough to oust Faletau or Lydiate...!!! Plenty of competion in the Welsh backrow and his experience and recent good form make him a very valuable addition should we need cover at Lock, Blindside or Number 8.

I see no reason why he (RJ) wouldn't have been involved anyway, yes it will mainly be as a squad/bench option but listening to some of his interviews last season he seemd very happy with the senior citizen role within the squad as well.

Agreed. With such a young squad his presence and experience will be valued as much as his good form.

ESPN

British & Irish Lions flanker Dan Lydiate has dismissed concerns that his availability for Wales will be compromised by his summer switch to Racing Metro.

Lydiate, who started the second and third Test for the Lions against Australia, is in the Metro squad for their Top 14 opener against Brive on Saturday. And although he is now playing overseas, with Jamie Roberts joining him at Racing, he is adamant he will be available for Wales ahead of the autumn internationals, though he did concede that those playing in the RaboDirect PRO12 may get a slight advantage.

http://www.espn.co.uk/blogs/rugby/story/194357.html

Lydiate picked up a try on his first game for them, didn't do that at the blyddi Dragons  

Jhamer25 wrote:Do you think he can wear shin guards. Surly that would be a good idea

bedfordwelsh wrote:Jhamer,

I don't think Toulon mis-treated him its just he didn't fit into their game plan and wanted the more destructive scrummaging Sheridan offers

Anyway,
I feel he was, sorry. He didn't arrive their untill after everyone else had settled in and then he got a minor set back with an injury. Then to me, it seemed like they didn't care about him. They didn't even give him a real chance ti show what he was like after a run of games, but he didn't get a run of games; to be honest, i don't think he even got to consecutive starts. This cleary hindered on his fitness and probably led him to his worse fitness levels in years which showed in some games last year and this year.
To me he was a great talent that has been neglected because the rich fancy boys just wanted his name to be within their star cast of players.

Neglected? in what world do you leave? this is pro rugby not mary poppins.
Jenkins arrived at Toulon more ore less at the same time Sheridan did. Maybe he didnt have a real chance to show what he can do but he keeps on getting the same small injury (calf?) and Toulon had no time to wait for him to be 100% fit or back from International duty. For the record he started 5 games (total 15 games played) while sheridan started 29... Toulon needed some strong LH scrummagers after being humiliated by Toulouse tight 5 in the previous T14 final, they recruited 2 props. jenkins was ultimately another recruitment mistake from toulon.he wasnt what they needed and he didnt perform for them full stop. those things unfortunately happen and you are seriously deluded if you think that because he's called gethin jenkins he earnt the right to start whenever he's fit.

munkian wrote:Lydiate picked up a try on his first game for them, didn't do that at the blyddi Dragons  

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/jonathan-sexton-up-and-running-for-racing-metro-1.1489830

Against the mighty Quinn too ? Fair play

Could be a force to be reckoned with in the HEC this season.

Lydiate or Quins or neither ?  

whocares wrote:

Jhamer25 wrote:Do you think he can wear shin guards. Surly that would be a good idea

bedfordwelsh wrote:Jhamer,

I don't think Toulon mis-treated him its just he didn't fit into their game plan and wanted the more destructive scrummaging Sheridan offers

Anyway,
I feel he was, sorry. He didn't arrive their untill after everyone else had settled in and then he got a minor set back with an injury. Then to me, it seemed like they didn't care about him. They didn't even give him a real chance ti show what he was like after a run of games, but he didn't get a run of games; to be honest, i don't think he even got to consecutive starts. This cleary hindered on his fitness and probably led him to his worse fitness levels in years which showed in some games last year and this year.
To me he was a great talent that has been neglected because the rich fancy boys just wanted his name to be within their star cast of players.

Neglected? in what world do you leave? this is pro rugby not mary poppins.
Jenkins arrived at Toulon more ore less at the same time Sheridan did. Maybe he didnt have a real chance to show what he can do but he keeps on getting the same small injury (calf?) and Toulon had no time to wait for him to be 100% fit or back from International duty. For the record he started 5 games (total 15 games played) while sheridan started 29... Toulon needed some strong LH scrummagers after being humiliated by Toulouse tight 5 in the previous T14 final, they recruited 2 props. jenkins was ultimately another recruitment mistake from toulon.he wasnt what they needed and he didnt perform for them full stop.  those things unfortunately happen and you are seriously deluded if you think that because he's called gethin jenkins he earnt the right to start whenever he's fit.

Sheridan had arrived and play the re season matches and Gethin arrived later because of the summer internationals.
How you can say he didn't perform for them is pathetic, with just 5 starts and no run of games you tell me where he has the chance to to perform. He didn't get the chance to play his way into the team. Also you tell me where I said he should start whenever he is fit. I said he deserved more than he got, I know Sheridan is a strong loosehead but to have a player like Gethin in your team and only give him 5 starts is a waste of money on their behalf and and just mistreating a player who deserves much more. If Gethin did have more games and did get a chance to prove himself and still didn't then i could clearly understand their decision in starting Sherdian nearly every game. But he didn't cause the club were greedy and had no logical reason to recruit him but the only thing you say which is right is "another recruitment mistake from toulon" they just wanted to flash their cash.
So next time read my post before you go running your mouth at me and give me a clear evidence to prove me wrong instead of trying to abuse me. So well done in trying to prove me wrong but you just look like a complete idiot now cause i posted that ages ago. It was my opinion so let it go now

munkian wrote:Lydiate or Quins or neither ?  

I was thinking Lydiate's new mates at Racing Metro could be a hell of a team come the HEC...

It hilights the incredible ammount of money clubs have compared to your average Rabbo Pro12 and even some Aviva teams

Who, apart from rich French clubs could recruit one of the arguably best in his postion in the NH and leave him on the bench ? If the Dragons could afford him we'd base our team around him.

Jenkins was a good understudy for Sheridan. Perhaps Toulon thought that given Sheridan's injury problems in the past they would need cover if their first choice was out.

Squads and bench players are increasingly important, especially in an attritional league like the Top14 and when you're challenging for the Heineken Cup.

As it was Jenkins wasn't really needed.

Cyril wrote:As it was Jenkins wasn't really needed.

That's the bottom line. There's no room for sentiment in professional sport. Should they have played him regardless, just to cheer him up?

munkian wrote:It hilights the incredible ammount of money clubs have compared to your average Rabbo Pro12 and even some Aviva teams

Who, apart from rich French clubs could recruit one of the arguably best in his postion in the NH and leave him on the bench ? If the Dragons could afford him we'd base our team around him.

Exactly we have teams over here like the Dragons ans blues who really needed a strong looshead ans didn't have one. Then all these french teams can afford 3. Can't blame them for leaving because any man would be stupid not to take the money but i wish the WRU would do more to help but lets not get into that because im sure someone else will want to start an argument with me  

Jhamer25 wrote:

munkian wrote:It hilights the incredible ammount of money clubs have compared to your average Rabbo Pro12 and even some Aviva teams

Who, apart from rich French clubs could recruit one of the arguably best in his postion in the NH and leave him on the bench ? If the Dragons could afford him we'd base our team around him.

Exactly we have teams over here like the Dragons ans blues who really needed a strong looshead ans didn't have one. Then all these french teams can afford 3. Can't blame them for leaving because any man would be stupid not to take the money but i wish the WRU would do more to help but lets not get into that because im sure someone else will want to start an argument with me  

The WRU have already said they can't afford to compete with the biggest budget clubs. If these guys want a player they pay a fortune for them. Probably more sensible to let them go and try to encourage young players to fill the void from our academies.

It will be less and less likely that RP12 teams can compete in the HEC over the next few years. French have raised their salary cap to almost three times what the Regions have imposed in wales.