The Great Gats CV

by The Saint Sun 14 Jul 2013, 2:02 pm

First topic message reminder :

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
CURRICULUM VITAE

Personal Details
Sir Warren David Gatland
DOB - 17/09/63
Married

Education
Waikato University
Hamilton Boys' High School

Playing Career
Waikato 1986-1994

Coaching Career with Honours
2007–present Wales (2 x 6 Nations Championship titles)
2013– British and Irish Lions (2-1 series win in Australia)
2005–2007 Waikato (1 x NPC title)
2002–2005 London Wasps (1 x Heineken Cup, 1 x ECC, 3 x Premiership titles)
1998–2001 Ireland
1996–1998 Connacht
1994–1996 Thames Valley
1989–1994 Galwegians RFC

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I bet there aren't any Scottish or Irish posters who have a CV half as good as this? Whistle

Keep that in mind the next time you aim vitriolic comments at him.

by Scarpia Tue 16 Jul 2013, 4:50 pm

fa0019 wrote:Scarpia

Claiming someone is the best ever and then saying its unfair that we're comparing McGeechan and gatland because McGeechan has had more tours is a bit of a joke isn't it???

I haven't claimed Gats is the best ever. You are (deliberately?) not seeing the tongue in cheek aspect of the phrase "You could say that WG has a 100% win record as Lions' coach so he is obviously the best ever."

I was pointing out that to compare two things there should be an even playing field (pun intended). It is unfair to say that Geech is the best ever because of how many winning series he had when Gats has only done one tour. When or if Gats has managed more tours and to other SH countries then we will be able to compare him on terms of winning series. You can compare him to other Lions coaches on terms of style of play for example - but not number of winning tours.

by Sin é Tue 16 Jul 2013, 5:00 pm

What do you think POC was going to say - he is a crap captain and he'd have been a much better one? Go look at the first test and POC made all the decisions for the pack and Sexton referred to him when needing to know what to do.

I thought Lydiate looked better with SOB than he did with Warburton.

by flyhalffactory Tue 16 Jul 2013, 5:04 pm

Sin é wrote:What do you think POC was going to say - he is a crap captain and he'd have been a much better one? Go look at the first test and POC made all the decisions for the pack and Sexton referred to him when needing to know what to do.

I thought Lydiate looked better with SOB than he did with Warburton.

Sexton most deffo did not, and it was the other way round with the Irish 10 bawling at BOD and POC on a few occasions. I think you will find that SOB looked good with Lydiate, as a traditional 6 his job was to cover the advance of the 7 and SOBs two best performances were with Dan. I think Warburtons openside performance in the second test was the best I have even seen in a Lions jersey. He leads by performance not by what he says to the troops but no doubt he was a clear leader on the tour, players of all ages gave him utter respect

by Sin é Tue 16 Jul 2013, 5:33 pm

flyhalffactory wrote:
Sin é wrote:What do you think POC was going to say - he is a crap captain and he'd have been a much better one? Go look at the first test and POC made all the decisions for the pack and Sexton referred to him when needing to know what to do.

I thought Lydiate looked better with SOB than he did with Warburton.

Sexton most deffo did not, and it was the other way round with the Irish 10 bawling at BOD and POC on a few occasions. I think you will find that SOB looked good with Lydiate, as a traditional 6 his job was to cover the advance of the 7 and SOBs two best performances were with Dan. I think Warburtons openside performance in the second test was the best I have even seen in a Lions jersey. He leads by performance not by what he says to the troops but no doubt he was a clear leader on the tour, players of all ages gave him utter respect

No it wasn't. POC told/discussed with Sexton what to do. And yea, Sexton bawls everyone out.

My point was that the better combination in the backrow was Lydiate/SOB, not Lydiate/Warburton (we saw both in test matches). The Austrlians & ABs were raving about SOB on any tours he has been on (and that would have had Ferris or Peter O'Mahoney or Kevin McLaughlin at 6, so it doesn't take lydiate to get a performance out of SOB).

Its not enough to lead by performance unless everyone there is a leader. David Wallace lead by example with his performances over the years at openside, but no one talks about him as a great leader. That a fudge when a captain doesn't interact with their team mates. The kind of respect that Warburton gets is because he has been made captain by Gatland. People are always making excuses for him for some reason. Any player who got sent off (correctly) in a world cup semi final would never be forgiven any place else but Wales. He didn't mean to do it, but it showed a lack of composure in the heat of battle on the big occasion.

by Guest Tue 16 Jul 2013, 6:10 pm

Sin

I don't see how you can know that 'any player who gets sent off (correctly) in a world cup semi final would never be forgiven any place but Wales', since it's only ever happened once - to the player being discussed.

But if you're correct, I think it's a point in favour of Welsh rugby- not a point against. 'Never' may be a suitable word for a cheat or a thug. Warburton is neither - insofar as that can ever be true of an international backrower! Smile

by Scarpia Tue 16 Jul 2013, 6:24 pm

You're missing the point, Op. As far as Sin is concerned the only agenda is to find fault with Gatland, Wales and the Welsh ever since Bodgate.

by SecretFly Tue 16 Jul 2013, 6:43 pm

Interesting too in that CV to see Gatland has spent 10 years of his coaching career in Ireland. Yeah, Gats learned a lot in Ireland Wink

.... not the least of which being the use of a big walloping 6'4" wing to do damage.

by Sin é Tue 16 Jul 2013, 6:44 pm

optimist wrote:Sin

I don't see how you can know that 'any player who gets sent off (correctly) in a world cup semi final would never be forgiven any place but Wales', since it's only ever happened once - to the player being discussed.

But if you're correct, I think it's a point in favour of Welsh rugby- not a point against. 'Never' may be a suitable word for a cheat or a thug. Warburton is neither - insofar as that can ever be true of an international backrower!

Nothing to do with whether he is a cheat or thug (Martin Johnson wasn't the most lovable creature) - its the loss of composure on a big day. Jamie Heaslip lost the plot in a similar way against NZ (losing the head with McCaw) and no one was singing his praises after it (neither is Heaslip known for dirty play). He apologised to his team mates and was mortified by the incident because he felt he had let everyone down. And he was right. First Irish player to get a red card in an international. In a similar situation, Warburton is a martyr in Wales and the ref gets death threats for daring to send him off in a similar situation. That is certainly something to be proud of.

by Sin é Tue 16 Jul 2013, 6:47 pm

Scarpia wrote:You're missing the point, Op. As far as Sin is concerned the only agenda is to find fault with Gatland, Wales and the Welsh ever since Bodgate.

I'd say I've been finding fault with Gatland and some Welsh a lot longer than that (Shane Williams trying to destroy Marcus Horan's career for starters).

by Guest Tue 16 Jul 2013, 7:21 pm

Sin é wrote:
optimist wrote:Sin

I don't see how you can know that 'any player who gets sent off (correctly) in a world cup semi final would never be forgiven any place but Wales', since it's only ever happened once - to the player being discussed.

But if you're correct, I think it's a point in favour of Welsh rugby- not a point against. 'Never' may be a suitable word for a cheat or a thug. Warburton is neither - insofar as that can ever be true of an international backrower!

Nothing to do with whether he is a cheat or thug (Martin Johnson wasn't the most lovable creature) - its the loss of composure on a big day. Jamie Heaslip lost the plot in a similar way against NZ (losing the head with McCaw) and no one was singing his praises after it (neither is Heaslip known for dirty play). He apologised to his team mates and was mortified by the incident because he felt he had let everyone down. And he was right. First Irish player to get a red card in an international. In a similar situation, Warburton is a martyr in Wales and the ref gets death threats for daring to send him off in a similar situation. That is certainly something to be proud of.

by Guest Tue 16 Jul 2013, 7:56 pm

optimist wrote:
Sin é wrote:
optimist wrote:Sin

I don't see how you can know that 'any player who gets sent off (correctly) in a world cup semi final would never be forgiven any place but Wales', since it's only ever happened once - to the player being discussed.

But if you're correct, I think it's a point in favour of Welsh rugby- not a point against. 'Never' may be a suitable word for a cheat or a thug. Warburton is neither - insofar as that can ever be true of an international backrower!

Nothing to do with whether he is a cheat or thug (Martin Johnson wasn't the most lovable creature) - its the loss of composure on a big day. Jamie Heaslip lost the plot in a similar way against NZ (losing the head with McCaw) and no one was singing his praises after it (neither is Heaslip known for dirty play). He apologised to his team mates and was mortified by the incident because he felt he had let everyone down. And he was right. First Irish player to get a red card in an international. In a similar situation, Warburton is a martyr in Wales and the ref gets death threats for daring to send him off in a similar situation. That is certainly something to be proud of.

You're remarkable in being perhaps the only person who doesn't know or won't acknowledge that Warburton behaved just like Heaslip did after his red card - apologising, mortified, etc. It's the reason why Warburton was forgiven in Wales - he ate humble pie and his sincerity was believed. But only in Wales, apparently. Elsewhere, according to you, a player in Warburton's situation would 'never' be forgiven. Heaslip must have thanked his lucky stars that he only whacked McCaw's head in a test match and not a world cup semi-final!

by The Saint Tue 16 Jul 2013, 8:06 pm

flyhalffactory wrote:
fa0019 wrote:I think this series victory will have given him a big mental victory for himself and the players involved. It means nothing if its not applied but as I mentioned earlier, bigger turnarounds have occurred in the past and the team has always had potential.

Not really cherry picking given I was stating one RWC cycle from another. Pretty clear cut.

Not referring to you mate but the OP initial statement

It looks as if you have cherry picked, not I. All the losses against SH you put in red were friendlies, so not sure what sort of tournament, trophy or series was at stake. It's a CV thread, and on a CV you put your credentials like winning said tournaments, not an elongated, tedious list of who Wales have played against during the tenure. Don't know why that is so hard to understand, and what you've wrote is the dumb regurgitated stuff we've seen the last few months. I guess even a Lions series win (a series we were told that we would lose under the Great Gats) isn't even enough to make some of you put a cork in it.
picard

by The Saint Tue 16 Jul 2013, 8:14 pm

Sin é wrote:
optimist wrote:Sin

I don't see how you can know that 'any player who gets sent off (correctly) in a world cup semi final would never be forgiven any place but Wales', since it's only ever happened once - to the player being discussed.

But if you're correct, I think it's a point in favour of Welsh rugby- not a point against. 'Never' may be a suitable word for a cheat or a thug. Warburton is neither - insofar as that can ever be true of an international backrower!

Nothing to do with whether he is a cheat or thug (Martin Johnson wasn't the most lovable creature) - its the loss of composure on a big day. Jamie Heaslip lost the plot in a similar way against NZ (losing the head with McCaw) and no one was singing his praises after it (neither is Heaslip known for dirty play). He apologised to his team mates and was mortified by the incident because he felt he had let everyone down. And he was right. First Irish player to get a red card in an international. In a similar situation, Warburton is a martyr in Wales and the ref gets death threats for daring to send him off in a similar situation. That is certainly something to be proud of.

Sin leave your BS posts off of the CV thread. It's quite obvious that you're bitter about the IRFU not keeping the Great Gats on, he could have done wonders with that 'golden generation' of yours. Besides, his record in the 6 Nations with Ireland was fairly good. No fifth place finishes for example.

by flyhalffactory Tue 16 Jul 2013, 8:48 pm

The Saint wrote:
flyhalffactory wrote:
fa0019 wrote:I think this series victory will have given him a big mental victory for himself and the players involved. It means nothing if its not applied but as I mentioned earlier, bigger turnarounds have occurred in the past and the team has always had potential.

Not really cherry picking given I was stating one RWC cycle from another. Pretty clear cut.

Not referring to you mate but the OP initial statement

It looks as if you have cherry picked, not I. All the losses against SH you put in red were friendlies, so not sure what sort of tournament, trophy or series was at stake. It's a CV thread, and on a CV you put your credentials like winning said tournaments, not an elongated, tedious list of who Wales have played against during the tenure. Don't know why that is so hard to understand, and what you've wrote is the dumb regurgitated stuff we've seen the last few months. I guess even a Lions series win (a series we were told that we would lose under the Great Gats) isn't even enough to make some of you put a cork in it.

Cherry picking is selecting certain data only........ I have looked at EVERY game that Gatland was in charge of during the two Slams, now tell me where the cherry picking is

Well its like me saying I had a double first class honours in maths and economics/accountancy, 3 papers out of 4, fellow chartered institute in ......... etc etc and then neglect to say if I run down a company or two.

The CV states what you think you are........... the interview process determines what you really have achieved and potentially what you could achieve.

I see Gatland as a Brian Clough of rugby union............ boys own stuff for Derby and Notts Forest, absolutely dire in between for Brighton (won just over a 1/3 of games and Leeds sacked after 44 games). The public remember only certain things but the people in the know now realise it was Peter Taylor his sidekick who was the coaching brains behind the duo. Gatland in my mind had taken a dire Welsh management process alongside the almost virginal regionalism process and it almost couldn't go lower so the only way was up...... that is up to 20 games where Wales only beat Italy and Argentina deservedly. This has clouded the "Shaun Edwards" effect and the progress "Regionalism" has on club fitness and player development. I believe regional coaches like Nigel Davies and Lynn Jones did more for player development than Mr G has ever done.

There is no doubt he has had some good coaching and management ideas: play the top 3 more often, have longer prep time between matches, and improve player conditioning and fitness.

It became transparent during the Lions tour particularly the 1st and 2nd tests that Gatland was reverting to: "Plan A" or "WarrenBall" or "GatlandBall Style" or "I haven't got a clue what to do if Plan A doesn't work" or..... "Wales"

No one can deny that The Lions could and should have lost the first two tests if a very poor Aussie side had remembered to bring their kicking boots...... and the 3rd test we could have been down by 12 points if they had the confidence to take the 5 pens on offer.

You cant deny Gatland has won trophies though, if it was due to him in the main is debateable.

by aucklandlaurie Tue 16 Jul 2013, 8:53 pm

On Gatalands CV, who has he put forward as his referees?

by The Saint Tue 16 Jul 2013, 9:15 pm

aucklandlaurie wrote: On Gatalands CV, who has he put forward as his referees?

Roger Lewis, WRU chairman.
Sir Ian McGeechan, runs a pub in Bath.

by aucklandlaurie Tue 16 Jul 2013, 9:17 pm

The Saint wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote: On Gatalands CV, who has he put forward as his referees?

Roger Lewis, WRU chairman.
Sir Ian McGeechan, runs a pub in Bath.

What about Steve walsh?

by The Saint Tue 16 Jul 2013, 9:22 pm

Flyhalf... I appreciate the work that went into to the pilot interview back there, but this is a CV. If you want win/loss records and ratio's then that would have to be on a win/loss thread. The CV highlights qualifications and honours. Those honours being 2 x 6 Nations, 1 x NPC, 1 x HEC, 1 x ECC, 3 x Jeff's, 1 x Lions series win. This is what the history books say... No shoulda woulda or coulda's, nor any moral victories. Don't see what there is to dispute about that; besides you know you'd be over the moon if he was appointed as the next coach of Scotland.

by The Saint Tue 16 Jul 2013, 9:24 pm

aucklandlaurie wrote:
The Saint wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote: On Gatalands CV, who has he put forward as his referees?

Roger Lewis, WRU chairman.
Sir Ian McGeechan, runs a pub in Bath.

What about Steve walsh?

No, he only works with Rob Howley mate. Ask Lancaster and Farrell, they were bending over backwards in an effort to get his services, but couldn't lure him away from the winners.

by **Notch** Tue 16 Jul 2013, 9:32 pm

The Saint wrote:

Sin leave your BS posts off of the CV thread. It's quite obvious that you're bitter about the IRFU not keeping the Great Gats on, he could have done wonders with that 'golden generation' of yours. Besides, his record in the 6 Nations with Ireland was fairly good. No fifth place finishes for example.

Gatland left Ireland in a good place and he brought us on from the shambles we were when he got the job but he's learnt a LOT since he left Ireland, he changed a lot as a coach in between coaching Ireland and Wales and he had improved a lot by the time you hired him. By 2008 he was simply a better coach than he was when Ireland sacked him and his methods re. fitness and defence had changed a lot.

by aucklandlaurie Tue 16 Jul 2013, 9:46 pm

Notch wrote:
The Saint wrote:

Sin leave your BS posts off of the CV thread. It's quite obvious that you're bitter about the IRFU not keeping the Great Gats on, he could have done wonders with that 'golden generation' of yours. Besides, his record in the 6 Nations with Ireland was fairly good. No fifth place finishes for example.

Gatland left Ireland in a good place and he brought us on from the shambles we were when he got the job but he's learnt a LOT since he left Ireland, he changed a lot as a coach in between coaching Ireland and Wales and he had improved a lot by the time you hired him. By 2008 he was simply a better coach than he was when Ireland sacked him and his methods re. fitness and defence had changed a lot.

I thought Gatty got fired from Ireland because Eddie O'Sullivan was a better coach, is that incorrect?

by The Saint Tue 16 Jul 2013, 9:50 pm

Laurie, that's what the anti-gatland mob would have you believe. Is EOS a better coach? No, we know that now. But the IRFU wanted a purebread Irishman in charge of the international team and EOS was good enough to step in, I guess that is why. But that's just a guess, I don't really know much about that old saga.

by **Notch** Tue 16 Jul 2013, 9:51 pm

He lost the dressing room. Man management was never his forte and Irish dressing rooms tend to be filled with more big personalities and talkers than others. And he had an Assistant Coach who he didn't like, disagreed with tactically and was very ambitious.

I actually do believe Eddie O'Sullivan WAS a better coach than Gatland when he got the Ireland job. Gatland reacted by learning a lot in his years with Wasps and Waikato and when he got to Wales he had improved a lot as a coach. Not saying he was a bad coach when he was with Ireland, far from it. But every coach gets better with experience and there's no point talking like Ireland sacked 2013 Gatland. That man is older and wiser than the relatively young coach who was pushed out of the IRFU.

by aucklandlaurie Tue 16 Jul 2013, 10:32 pm

Yes , Notch thats probably pretty close to the chain of events, the crazy thing is that it was New Zealand and Ireland that were the only two countries to see the future coaching potential in the man initially.

by flyhalffactory Wed 17 Jul 2013, 12:01 am

Saint I hand on heart dont think he is as good a coach as Shaun Edwards or even Nigel Davies or even Lynn Jones. Maybe he is a better manager but certainly not a coach.

by Cyril Wed 17 Jul 2013, 8:14 am

flyhalffactory wrote:Warbuton at 24 is very much in Johnnos league and potentially is a better player, and an on-form and more importantly confident Priestland is as good as any International 10

Wow

by Scrumpy Wed 17 Jul 2013, 9:58 am

Cyril wrote:
flyhalffactory wrote:Warbuton at 24 is very much in Johnnos league and potentially is a better player, and an on-form and more importantly confident Priestland is as good as any International 10
Wow

A inform (2011) Warbs is a very good player but in MJs league?

'Priestland is as good as any International 10'

Laugh

outside the top 5 IRB nations, maybe!
(IRB top 5 NZ, SA, AUS, ENG, FRA)

by Scarpia Wed 17 Jul 2013, 10:33 am

an on-form and more importantly confident Priestland is as good as any International 10

is what he actually said. Cunning bit of editing there, Scrumpy. Not sure I totally agree but he is very good when he is at the top of his game. That just hasn't happened for a good while.

by ScarletSpiderman Wed 17 Jul 2013, 10:33 am

An inform Priestland is something special IMO. He is a good distributing fly half, and when on for a very good tactical kicker too. His draw back is that he is not a goal kicker. I would take an infor Preist over an in form Farrel or Flood any day.

That said he has not played since Jan, and is targetting a comeback for the pre-season. So I don't think we will be seeing an in form Priest before the 6Ns this season.

by Scrumpy Wed 17 Jul 2013, 11:04 am

I agree a inform (2011) Priestland is one of the best FH's outside the current top 5 IRB Nations.

I'd rather take a inform Burns over a inform Farrell and Flood

by **rodders** Wed 17 Jul 2013, 11:06 am

Notch wrote:He lost the dressing room. Man management was never his forte and Irish dressing rooms tend to be filled with more big personalities and talkers than others.

Really? I don't know what that is based on.

I'd say what we do have is a real ingrained level of nepotism within the country, not just specific to rugby or sport, whereby many of the players know and/or are related to coaches, administrators etc.

This results in favouritism, complacancy and player power, which makes it extremely difficult for an authoratarian type outsider coach to come in, unless they have a very strong backing from their employers.

Cheika did well at Leinster, and Anscombe so far so good at Ulster, but generally the overseas coaches to come in and do well are more of the democratic type like Schmidt, rather than dictorial old school style like Gatland.

Perhaps the reality is that we are a sensitive and insecure country (or countries), a legacy of both imperialism and the role of the churches maybe, and we (the royal) prefer to be molicodled and ego massaged rather than told what to do or dictated to against our will.

Gats is a limited coach, inflexible, stubborn and at times downwrite spiteful, but with the right kind of player -mental, technical and physical - has proved he can be very successful. He understands the key aspects of rugby, that dominating the gainline, collisions and set piece makes a team very hard to beat.

He may have an overfixation on power at times, and a tendency to put his own ego ahead of everything else but in his defense he is a positive coach, in that he is attack orientated, rather than a lot of the conservative and negative coaches we have around, particularly in Ireland.

by flyhalffactory Wed 17 Jul 2013, 11:20 am

Scrumpy wrote:
Cyril wrote:
flyhalffactory wrote:Warbuton at 24 is very much in Johnnos league and potentially is a better player, and an on-form and more importantly confident Priestland is as good as any International 10
Wow

A inform (2011) Warbs is a very good player but in MJs league?

'Priestland is as good as any International 10'

outside the top 5 IRB nations, maybe!
(IRB top 5 NZ, SA, AUS, ENG, FRA)

Don't you just love when all a poster can react to a message is using a silly "icon" but compound that with being an even sillier cheery cherry picker of data......... well what can we say "it just adds to your transparent nature"

"2011"........ that's made me smile!
Your lack of experience is like a sledgehammer to the face - Warbs after coming back from a serious injury had MOTM performances against us (Scotland) and in the last match against England in the 2012 6Ns

He was close to MOTM performance again Warratahs and he deffo was right up there in the 2nd test until injured after 67 mins

Extract from all the world press

"His loss is a significant blow to the Lions' hopes of a first series win since 1997 and a first against the Wallabies since 1989 - especially given Warburton's influence at the all-important breakdown battle on Saturday."

Sir Clive Woodward

Former England and Lions coach Sir Clive Woodward was one of those impressed, labelling his 70 minute showing "the most outstanding performance I have ever seen from a Lion."

That kinda puts him in place with Johnno, and particularly at the tender age of 24

Oh to be at your level I will put a raspberry

icon here as well............. there you go

by Scrumpy Wed 17 Jul 2013, 11:22 am

I'm sorry but I don't rate Priestland inform or not.

by Cyril Wed 17 Jul 2013, 11:23 am

To be fair, flyhalffactory, you were stating that an in-form and confident Priestland is as good as Carter etc.

A bit more meat on the bone laddie.

by ScarletSpiderman Wed 17 Jul 2013, 11:26 am

rodders wrote:Gats is a limited coach, inflexible, stubborn and at times downwrite spiteful, but with the right kind of player -mental, technical and physical - has proved he can be very successful. He understands the key aspects of rugby, that dominating the gainline, collisions and set piece makes a team very hard to beat.

I think one of his saving graces with Wales (and this Lions tour), is the mental attitude of the Welsh in general. We tend to perform far far better when the world and his sister are on our backs telling us we are useless and unworthy. When Gats took over Wales were in an awful state post RWC07 shambles. We were getting stick left right and centre and had to prove that we were better than that, and we did with the GS. Then we fell to peices, in what was probably the worst period of for welsh rugby I can think of (talent vrs results), and shock horror when the world was on out backs the mentality of 'hump them, we will show them' kicked in and another GS came.

The Lions third test shown signs of that too imo, as there was a lot of slating in the press about them and it did get through to the players (was it Staggy that mentioned that Foxy was supprised that Irish people wanted to talk to him?), and IMO that same 'we will show them' was the reason they won.

by Scrumpy Wed 17 Jul 2013, 11:41 am

So the secret to beating Wales is to praise them and make them believe they are favourites? Very Happy

by Sin é Wed 17 Jul 2013, 11:48 am

Its a bit annoying that Gatland betrays himself as a victim who was badly treated by Ireland and that Eddie O'Sullivan stabbed him in the back. Gatland has a lot to be grateful to Ireland and its a pity he can't admit it rather than prolong this grudge thing.

His record for Ireland is as follows (I'm identifying when EOS came in as his assistant).

Without O'Sullivan as assistant.
Played 18. Won 5. Lost 13.

With O'Sullivan as assistant:
Played 13. Won 9. Lost 4. (Ireland beat France twice in that period).

The reason why his contract was not renewed was not because Ireland lost an away game to Scotland, it was because he was a bit of a dinasaur as a coach who resisted change (i.e., specialist coaches) and he couldn't cope with the likes of big players like Keith Wood having an input into training.

Interesting that aspect of his coaching hasn't changed. POC remarked that the senior players were not involved in the coaching on the Lions tour as he would be with Munster and Ireland. He remarked that Irish players find that a bit odd.

by SecretFly Wed 17 Jul 2013, 11:53 am

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
rodders wrote:Gats is a limited coach, inflexible, stubborn and at times downwrite spiteful, but with the right kind of player -mental, technical and physical - has proved he can be very successful. He understands the key aspects of rugby, that dominating the gainline, collisions and set piece makes a team very hard to beat.

I think one of his saving graces with Wales (and this Lions tour), is the mental attitude of the Welsh in general. We tend to perform far far better when the world and his sister are on our backs telling us we are useless and unworthy. When Gats took over Wales were in an awful state post RWC07 shambles. We were getting stick left right and centre and had to prove that we were better than that, and we did with the GS. Then we fell to peices, in what was probably the worst period of for welsh rugby I can think of (talent vrs results), and shock horror when the world was on out backs the mentality of 'hump them, we will show them' kicked in and another GS came.

The Lions third test shown signs of that too imo, as there was a lot of slating in the press about them and it did get through to the players (was it Staggy that mentioned that Foxy was supprised that Irish people wanted to talk to him?), and IMO that same 'we will show them' was the reason they won.

A degree of truth in all that. But then, a degree of truth in it for all International sides. We all get criticised at and sneered at and the players can then find their moment to say "f**k all of them. Let's show them what we can do". That happens in all teams - not unique to Wales.

Two points.
One: Yes, Wales did have a low point with Gatland still in charge. And he was coming close to the edge of not being around too much longer too - if my memory serves me well. He was picking up criticism not only from outsiders then but Welshmen. So it's not always the outside criticisms that spurs on a team.
Two: If that third test was Welsh players responding to a week of criticism with a "we will show them" game - where does that leave Sexton, O'Brien and Murray? Sexton is down on record as being in a mood to play a 'we will show them' game too - only perhaps his target was a different one to the majority of his Welsh team mates. O'Brien and Murray too will have had perhaps different motivations pushing them on through the game? Not forgetting Corbisiero and his unique motivations too.
It wasn't so much a 'we're all for one' in that last game as it was a 'we're all going to try to win it for differing and perhaps, ironically, conflicting reasons.'

by flyhalffactory Wed 17 Jul 2013, 11:57 am

Cyril wrote:To be fair, flyhalffactory, you were stating that an in-form and confident Priestland is as good as Carter etc.

A bit more meat on the bone laddie.

Ok Cyril a bit more meat on the bone

The "Priest" is very much a sensitive player who takes a lot of stock of what people say, hence his "meltdown" and request for help from the WRU. However if you look at his first game for Wales against England in the very much talked about WC warm-up match, he wasn't supposed to be even on the bench on the Wednesday, then he was called to the match day squad, then 10 mins before the start Stephen Jones (I believe) pulled up injured. That was a massive moment for any player let alone someone who can cave in if his confidence goes.

His performance that match was the best "structured attacking" play I have seen from a NH 10 for a decade, he then went on to play a number of outstanding games.

Unfortunately as I said he is very much a confidence play and if he gets help in managing his nerves, his innate abilities and skillset will shine through

If you want I can wack in the obligatory UTUBE videos to highlight his wonderful balance of link risk-based attacking play and sound defensive qualities

by flyhalffactory Wed 17 Jul 2013, 12:04 pm

Sin é wrote:Its a bit annoying that Gatland betrays himself as a victim who was badly treated by Ireland and that Eddie O'Sullivan stabbed him in the back. Gatland has a lot to be grateful to Ireland and its a pity he can't admit it rather than prolong this grudge thing.

His record for Ireland is as follows (I'm identifying when EOS came in as his assistant).

Without O'Sullivan as assistant.
Played 18. Won 5. Lost 13.

With O'Sullivan as assistant:
Played 13. Won 9. Lost 4. (Ireland beat France twice in that period).

The reason why his contract was not renewed was not because Ireland lost an away game to Scotland, it was because he was a bit of a dinasaur as a coach who resisted change (i.e., specialist coaches) and he couldn't cope with the likes of big players like Keith Wood having an input into training.

Interesting that aspect of his coaching hasn't changed. POC remarked that the senior players were not involved in the coaching on the Lions tour as he would be with Munster and Ireland. He remarked that Irish players find that a bit odd.

Spot on mate

Its the same with Wales............ close knit group of "yes" players who don't overstep their mark, the "disruptive" players he soon drops or doesn't even select, and his trophy years (Wasps and Wales) have been with Shaun Edwards by his side

by ScarletSpiderman Wed 17 Jul 2013, 12:10 pm

SecretFly - There were definately different reasons for the players having that attitude in the final Lions game (has anyone made Sexton say sorry for celebrating his try?). And whilst it is far from a unique welsh attitude, I do think we are probably one of the worst for over-hyping our players and then turing on them on a six pence and being over-critical of the slightest mistake. Foxy and Preistland are good examples, I have seen them both praised highly (too highly maybe) on here at times, and I have also seen them single handedly blamed for everything wrong with the world ever (well, not quite by you know how it is).

I honestly believe whoever the coach was post RWC07 that they would have 'turned the team around', as I believe it was down to the players. The same thing goes for the GS post the great slump. If Gats had been booted out, then the new coach would have been the great redemer.

by Cyril Wed 17 Jul 2013, 12:12 pm

flyhalffactory wrote:
Cyril wrote:To be fair, flyhalffactory, you were stating that an in-form and confident Priestland is as good as Carter etc.

A bit more meat on the bone laddie.

Ok Cyril a bit more meat on the bone

The "Priest" is very much a sensitive player who takes a lot of stock of what people say, hence his "meltdown" and request for help from the WRU. However if you look at his first game for Wales against England in the very much talked about WC warm-up match, he wasn't supposed to be even on the bench on the Wednesday, then he was called to the match day squad, then 10 mins before the start Stephen Jones (I believe) pulled up injured. That was a massive moment for any player let alone someone who can cave in if his confidence goes.

His performance that match was the best "structured attacking" play I have seen from a NH 10 for a decade, he then went on to play a number of outstanding games.

Unfortunately as I said he is very much a confidence play and if he gets help in managing his nerves, his innate abilities and skillset will shine through

If you want I can wack in the obligatory UTUBE videos to highlight his wonderful balance of link risk-based attacking play and sound defensive qualities

Fair enough. Thing is though, temperament, confidence and complete conviction in your ability is a key element in a fly half's armoury. You can have all the other skills but if you lack in this area you're in big trouble.

He's probably Wales' best 10 (fit, on form and not having a 'meltdown') but I wouldn't say he's up there with the best internationally. It's difficult to tell at the moment with his form spiralling downwards and then his injury.

by SecretFly Wed 17 Jul 2013, 12:20 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:has anyone made Sexton say sorry for celebrating his try?

?

I don't know. Maybe he had to apologise in private to Gatland after the game? Maybe he was forced to drive the hidden emotion of that score from his mind?

I don't know the answer to that one Scarlet. Another autobiography we're going to have to wait for, I guess. Those autobiographies are piling up waiting for readers to scan them for clues as to just what was being said, and by whom, during this eventful! Lions tour.

by flyhalffactory Wed 17 Jul 2013, 12:28 pm

Cyril wrote:
flyhalffactory wrote:
Cyril wrote:To be fair, flyhalffactory, you were stating that an in-form and confident Priestland is as good as Carter etc.

A bit more meat on the bone laddie.

Ok Cyril a bit more meat on the bone

The "Priest" is very much a sensitive player who takes a lot of stock of what people say, hence his "meltdown" and request for help from the WRU. However if you look at his first game for Wales against England in the very much talked about WC warm-up match, he wasn't supposed to be even on the bench on the Wednesday, then he was called to the match day squad, then 10 mins before the start Stephen Jones (I believe) pulled up injured. That was a massive moment for any player let alone someone who can cave in if his confidence goes.

His performance that match was the best "structured attacking" play I have seen from a NH 10 for a decade, he then went on to play a number of outstanding games.

Unfortunately as I said he is very much a confidence play and if he gets help in managing his nerves, his innate abilities and skillset will shine through

If you want I can wack in the obligatory UTUBE videos to highlight his wonderful balance of link risk-based attacking play and sound defensive qualities
Fair enough. Thing is though, temperament, confidence and complete conviction in your ability is a key element in a fly half's armoury. You can have all the other skills but if you lack in this area you're in big trouble.

He's probably Wales' best 10 (fit, on form and not having a 'meltdown') but I wouldn't say he's up there with the best internationally. It's difficult to tell at the moment with his form spiralling downwards and then his injury.

I agree with that........ lets just say he has the potential to combine a linked forwards driven to a structured attacking play with all the options from 10. Its something that you need with GatlandBall Style

by ScarletSpiderman Wed 17 Jul 2013, 12:35 pm

SecretFly- Sexton seemed very very happy, far more flamboient than some celebrations that have required public apologies.

How many biographies will be out by Christmas (BOD & Maybe POC, A Jones, Warburton?)

by SecretFly Wed 17 Jul 2013, 12:43 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:SecretFly- Sexton seemed very very happy, far more flamboient than some celebrations that have required public apologies.

How many biographies will be out by Christmas (BOD & Maybe POC, A Jones, Warburton?)

Nah, I wouldn't think so. Far too early for any of them yet. History is still being written by all of those players - even the one who didn't have the quality to play the last test Wink

by ScarletSpiderman Wed 17 Jul 2013, 1:40 pm

SecretFly wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:SecretFly- Sexton seemed very very happy, far more flamboient than some celebrations that have required public apologies.

How many biographies will be out by Christmas (BOD & Maybe POC, A Jones, Warburton?)

Nah, I wouldn't think so. Far too early for any of them yet. History is still being written by all of those players - even the one who didn't have the quality to play the last test

Didn't stop Henson having his book out at the end of the NZ lions tour. And man has he made some history since then Whistle

by Mickado Wed 17 Jul 2013, 1:42 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:SecretFly- Sexton seemed very very happy, far more flamboient than some celebrations that have required public apologies.

How many biographies will be out by Christmas (BOD & Maybe POC, A Jones, Warburton?)

Smiling?! Yeah, there's a few players I've seen apologise for smiling after scoring a try.

Sexton's Over-celebration:

by ScarletSpiderman Wed 17 Jul 2013, 1:45 pm

Mick - he did jump up and punch the air too, but the comment was meant tongue in cheek.

by Mickado Wed 17 Jul 2013, 2:00 pm

Yeah, I know. I was actually looking for the picture where it looks like he's dancing like Carlton from the Fresh Prince but i couldn't find it.

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