The Great Gats CV

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CURRICULUM VITAE

Personal Details
Sir Warren David Gatland
DOB - 17/09/63
Married

Education
Waikato University
Hamilton Boys' High School

Playing Career
Waikato 1986-1994

Coaching Career with Honours
2007–present Wales (2 x 6 Nations Championship titles)
2013– British and Irish Lions (2-1 series win in Australia)
2005–2007 Waikato (1 x NPC title)
2002–2005 London Wasps (1 x Heineken Cup, 1 x ECC, 3 x Premiership titles)
1998–2001 Ireland
1996–1998 Connacht
1994–1996 Thames Valley
1989–1994 Galwegians RFC

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I bet there aren't any Scottish or Irish posters who have a CV half as good as this? Keep that in mind the next time you aim vitriolic comments at him.

Sweet, thanks for the info fa. I don't recall the 93 series but I would have watched it. Dunno if I'm wrong here and please set me straight if so, but is a lions series win in 2013 'worth' more than those in the past? Can't really explain what I mean by 'worth', only to say that more rugby fans worldwide would have followed the recent series than in the ones that mcgeechan won and thus there's more kudos perhaps. I recall all the series since the one Ted imploded on, but none prior. Didn't give a monkeys about the lions before then, but now I do. No doubt this attitude is showing my ignorance of its history.

probably harder in the past. In those days every match was a battle... i think the dirt trackers lost as many games as they won in 93.... when club sides had all their players available.
For instance had the reds had their full strength side available I think they would have won their tour match this year.

Things like lineouts though were easier to build for lions sides so that has become more difficult. Defensive lines have also become much more complex.

But then again, teams all move with the times. The lions and NZ were cutting edge rugby at the time, as the Lions are now. They both played the same conditions etc. Both SA and NZ are far far more difficult to tour and therefore a greater achievement to most.

is a lions series win in 2013 'worth' more than those in the past?

In the amateur era, one advantage for touring international sides was that the players were able to devote regular time to train properly for the sport. They got fitter on tour.

Gordon Brown always played better for the Lions than he did for Scotland and the common opinion is that he never really got himself in shape in an ordinary season.

These days, players might still feel a step-up in intensity, but they are already trained for rugby. Also, as we've seen, the desire to go on a Lions tour actually means some players travel when they aren't fit.

One area where the touring sides undoubtedly had it tougher in the past was biased referees. South Africa seems especially notorious on this count, which is one reason the invincibles are held in such high regard.

Lions series 2013, worth more than in the past?  That's probably an understandable present day thought of a present day generation.  We always think we're living at close to the most significant time in history.  

But Lions have won more series against Australia than the other way round.  I think that keeps getting overlooked, as people fixate on the overall Lions record rather than looking at the record against each Nation it has encountered.
Played 9 tours, won 7 against Australia.
23 tests played.  Won 17.  Only lost 6

So not sure you could subscribe an especial significance to an achievement that is more commonplace than rare, historically speaking.

AUS were a joke rugby nation until the 80s though... most of the players coming from 1 or 2 private schools and league guys who thought they'd have a go.

Fair enough, when you put it like that.

All I know is that I watched the most recent lions series agsinst SA and Oz where in the past I wouldn't have cared one iota. In 93 it was just a quaint tradition (I thought anyway), whereas now it counts for a lot more in terms of bragging rights.

Maybe it's the us vs them thing that's been fostered by the June/November tests. I hate losing to NH more than ever!!

I'm not saying the Oz series win is that significant as Scotland on their own can beat Oz, but I'm saying more people probably know about the 2013 series win, are talking about it, and actually care, and not just people from the NH.

It's like us AB fans trying to convince yas that 87 meant something, it's a bit of a Clayton's WC, I'll admit that. 2011 wasn't, as are all lions series moving forward. They 'mean' a lot more, IMO.

Ask a player today what would you rather have... a RWC winners medal or a Lions series victory... either for the home nations or the 3N hosts I doubt any would sacrifice a RWC winners medal.

Prior to 87, the Lions, ABs and Boks touring teams in the SH were the biggest tours at the time. It was the highest form of the sport at any given time.... probably can't say that now.

The Saint wrote:____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
CURRICULUM VITAE

Personal Details
Sir Warren David Gatland
DOB - 17/09/63
Married

Education
Waikato University
Hamilton Boys' High School

Playing Career
Waikato 1986-1994

Coaching Career with Honours
2007–present Wales (2 x 6 Nations Championship titles)
2013– British and Irish Lions (2-1 series win in Australia)
2005–2007 Waikato (1 x NPC title)
2002–2005 London Wasps (1 x Heineken Cup, 1 x ECC, 3 x Premiership titles)
1998–2001 Ireland
1996–1998 Connacht
1994–1996 Thames Valley
1989–1994 Galwegians RFC

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I bet there aren't any Scottish or Irish posters who have a CV half as good as this? :whistle:Keep that in mind the next time you aim vitriolic comments at him.

Must have built up some nice milage from 1989-1994 playing and coaching in NH & SH.

Surely Gus Novas must be much better.

The great kidney has a good record and went one whole year unbeaten something that Gats has never achived.

Also says alot that after Wasp he went to an ITM team and then wales.  What is Gats W/L for each team, ireland and wales it must be about 50%.

Also the manger of georgia must have loads of titles.  Or if it against tbe top teams kidney, johnson and robinson have better records.

What was johnsons record in the 6N. He also only lost one game at the world cup. You could also say he did more in winning the RWC in 2003 then his coach.

ebop,you also have to factor in the 'chatting' capacity of a modern world.  That's increased tenfold since the mid noughties with more and more people online, connected, waffling and chatting over and through their social networks.

Things seem more important now and interest probably has increased in many sports because of the ability to communicate before, during and after each event in real time, all over the globe.

So does communication technology simply heighten people's sense of emotional involvement rather than the actual sport itself or the results coming from it?

It is a fine balance between looking at the past through tinted glasses and now constanly being told that this new kid is going to be the best player since whoever.

Usually when i hear a player who has had one great game is going to be a superstar i automatically dislike him.

I remember how Keith Earls was meant to take the last tour by storm.... proved a very difficult tour for the lad.

fa0019 wrote:

Biltong wrote:

DeludedOptimistorjustDave wrote:Sir Clive Woodward 2003 world cup winner,he also took us to the 2007 final but the ref robbed us that Cueto try WAS A MATCH WINNING TRY!
Sir Lancaster beat the NZ Kwis AllBlacks, Galand hasn't.

Unless that try costed 10 points (deduct three points for the penalty you got instead) yeah, it was a match winning try.  

 Yo BB, technically given The boks were only 3-9 ahead at the time had England scored and converted then they would have been 10-9 ahead.... Would have changed the dynamic of the game but not to a point I admit where any result would have been able to be predicted. Wasn't a match winning try I agree though.

Although SCW quit in 2004...2 coaches back by the RWC07 final so not sure what other poster is saying???

I was just amazed we made it to the final!

Probably right EE given that squad included Jamie Noon, Shaun Perry, Peter Richards, Dan Hipkiss, Toby Flood, Andy Farrell and Mike Catt (who whilst great in the past was well past it come 07) and that was just in the backs... I'm sure Hipkiss, Richards, Flood and Catt all played in the KO matches... talk about scraping the barrell.

Had they won, it probably would have been the biggest shock in rugby history of any era let alone just the pro era.

fa0019 wrote:Probably right EE given that squad included Jamie Noon, Shaun Perry, Peter Richards, Dan Hipkiss, Toby Flood, Andy Farrell and Mike Catt (who whilst great in the past was well past it come 07) and that was just in the backs... I'm sure Hipkiss, Richards, Flood and Catt all played in the KO matches... talk about scraping the barrell.

Had they won, it probably would have been the biggest shock in rugby history of any era let alone just the pro era.

NON SENSE! How many other Northern Hemisphere players can say they played in a world cup final? NON. They got to the final because they are the best,who can forget Tait tearing apart the Bokkie SpringBok Africans? he showed Habbanahan up BIG TIME.

I still don't like Gatland nore do I like Warrenball.

Deluded

So do you actually think that Dan Hipkiss, Peter Richards and Toby Flood were amongst the finest rugby players in Europe at the time as all 3 played in the final at some stage or another???

I like what you did with Habana, nice slight.. those 50 test tries, world player of the year 2007 and being a world cup winner sorts of laughs in your face though. He's 30+ yet is still the best in the business.

How many other Northern Hemisphere players can say they played in a world cup final?

Wales made the WCF last time around.....morally.

Gatland is undoubtedly a cracking coach with a fantastic track record. His last three appointments, Wasps, Wales and the Lions have shown the exploits of a coach at the very top of his game. Big challenge now is the next World Cup. Can Wales take the next step? It'll be a great achievement if they can manage it.

Lions won the 1st test in 1993 and the series 2-1.
NZ skipped lunch the day before and won the RWC95 final with Lomu romping home with 3 tries.
Lions won the 2nd test in 2001 as Grey missed elbowing Hills head at the end of the 1st half.
NZ won the RWC07 QF vs. France and then smashed England in the SF.
Lions won the 2nd test in 2009 as Schalk Burger was sent off in the 1st minute.
France won the RWC11.

hang on a minute??? no they didn't. There is no such thing as a moral victory.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

How many other Northern Hemisphere players can say they played in a world cup final?

Wales made the WCF last time around.....morally.

Gatland is undoubtedly a cracking coach with a fantastic track record. His last three appointments, Wasps, Wales and the Lions have shown the exploits of a coach at the very top of his game. Big challenge now is the next World Cup. Can Wales take the next step? It'll be a great achievement if they can manage it.

Did they? Okay... Just to let you know, Wales have actually made a RWC final, and won the thing . Read the history books and weep.

Not so sure about the next world cup. We would need to notch up more wins against England and Australia between now and then to have a chance of making it out of the group stages.

Brendan wrote:It is a fine balance between looking at the past through tinted glasses and now constanly being told that this new kid is going to be the best player since whoever.

Usually when i hear a player who has had one great game is going to be a superstar i automatically dislike him.

You dislike someone because a pundit raves about them.

Blimey that is harsh.


Oh Brendan, I believe you are the next global superstar in accountancy. YOU DA MAN. WOOP WOOP. GO BRENDAN, GO BRENDAN

Well Tiger, I did invite you back in after you gave yourself time to cool off. Such a shame you can't be a man about it.
Munchkin, you're welcome to call me up on something you believe to be in correct but it's an actual fact you can't do that because that is exactly what this thread is (fact).

Saint

There is giving him his due and then there is making wild claims that he's the best ever etc etc

Gatland deserves praise..... He did something nearly all of us thought he shouldn't... From the former players, coaches, pundits, writers and fans... Yet he alone was right.

But that doesn't make him the best coach in lions or british and Irish history. What miller did in 74 is superior and what McGeechan did in 97 is superior due to the opposition and the way they went about the tour.

If gatland tours again and beats the ABs then fair is fair, gatland will have his place in history as the top dog but until then its premature.

fa0019 wrote:

Scarpia wrote:

fa0019 wrote:Not bad CV.... But McGeechan has 2 series victories, Gatland has 1...

But Gatland has only been in charge of one series so that's not a fair comparison is it? You could say that WG has a 100% win record as Lions' coach so he is obviously the best ever.

Compared to Syd Miller in 74 who went undefeated in SA??? If I recall, he's Irish (something the original poster should remember). Far a more difficult place to tour and win.

That's a fair point of course. But you were comparing Gats and Geech.

FA, I don't think he's the best ever. And with regards to what you have just wrote, you said that already a few hours ago, and put your points across very well.

Scarpia

Claiming someone is the best ever and then saying its unfair that we're  comparing McGeechan and gatland because McGeechan has had more tours is a bit of a joke isn't it???

McGeechan won his first tour too... And that AUS team was of a higher calibre to this class... Within a year that team had the ABs on the run.. Do you see this AUS team doing the same to the ABs now?

You can only review what they have done as of yet... And McGeechan has a series victory in SA.... The rarest of them all. Pure and simple those achievements are way above Gatlands at the moment.

fa0019 wrote:

McGeechan won his first tour too... And that AUS team was of a higher calibre to this class... Within a year that team had the ABs on the run.. Do you see this AUS team doing the same to the ABs now?

Yeah quite possibly, because they're Australia. This AUS team has turned over the All Blacks a few times already, and apart from one big loss upheld a good record against SA. Funny how they're only an under-achieving B side when Wales are involved.

10/10 for a very witty pun in the thread title that made me laugh.

However the titular character in the Great Gatsby is a man who appears to be successful but who's great show of wealth and success is NOT genuine; just a lie born out of private unhappiness and a desperate need to reclaim the love of a woman who now cares little for him or anyone but herself. Really it could be thought of a book about failure and the perilously fragile construct that is the face of success we project to the world.

So maybe not the best choice if you want to claim Gatland has been 'vindicated'.

LondonTiger wrote:

Brendan wrote:It is a fine balance between looking at the past through tinted glasses and now constanly being told that this new kid is going to be the best player since whoever.

Usually when i hear a player who has had one great game is going to be a superstar i automatically dislike him.

You dislike someone because a pundit raves about them.

Blimey that is harsh.


Oh Brendan, I believe you are the next global superstar in accountancy. YOU DA MAN. WOOP WOOP. GO BRENDAN, GO BRENDAN

I know its a bit harsh but its the irish way, though most of us do it serectly, look at sexton and others when they came on the scene and how we were.

And now i think i'll tell everone i'm over hyped

Back to gats though the one issue i have is this. Top players/coaches are always wt the top. You have people who are hot and cold who blow you away half the time and then do nothing the other half i can except them as top class.

If McCaw was amazing for half the season and then second best for the other half would people say he was amasing.
Would people say that deans is as good as Gats as or that Deans is a top coach.
Deans has won the 3N, 3rd in the world cup, beat NZ when they were about to =\break the record for most games won in a row. But he loses to many games for Aus to be considered top. Even with half his first missing he still almost beat the lions.
Gats has had to many long runs of losses to be considered great. His club form is good but so then are loads of other people.

Brendan wrote:

If McCaw was amazing for half the season and then second best for the other half would people say he was amasing.
Would people say that deans is as good as Gats as or that Deans is a top coach.
Deans has won the 3N, 3rd in the world cup, beat NZ when they were about to =\break the record for most games won in a row.  But he loses to many games for Aus to be considered top.  Even with half his first missing he still almost beat the lions.
Gats has had to many long runs of losses to be considered great.  His club form is good but so then are loads of other people.

Well deduced, Brendan. Beauty is in the eye of those doing the perceiving. Success is rated relatively depending on what slap of continent you're on.

But on that McCaw comment. The man didn't even play for half a season and still picked up that season's Player of the Year award. So there are special people, despite performance...even in the SH.

Gats always sticks me as one of those blokes who's CV is brilliant, and they have achieved so much, but then when you see them working you wonder how they achieved it.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Gats always sticks me as one of those blokes who's CV is brilliant, and they have achieved so much, but then when you see them working you wonder how they achieved it.

By getting the right people to work with you.
I see it all the time in my work, the big boss guys don't have a clue.

Gatland is the new Gavin Henson, too soon?

Time: The Not Too Distant Future
Place: The NZRU HQ
Attendance: NZRU Board Selection Committee (SC) & Cur Warren Gatland (CWG)
Subject: Appointment of next NZ coach

SC: Good Afternoon Cur Warren Gatland, we have received your application letter & CV which is most impressive, however we have a few additional questions we want to ask if that's ok with you.
CWG: Jeeze there's quite a few of you guys, are we having sandwiches and stuff later, by the way I think you spell it "Sir" not "Cur"
SC: Ahem…. at the moment let’s just say the jury’s out. So a few questions for you.

1. You say you have won two 6N “Slams” in 2007 and 2011, tell us how did you do between them?
CWG: Well let’s see, ahem cough cough, strewth it’s a  bit warm in here. Well lets just say “we”, I mean when I say “we” I mean Wales….. came lower than 1st and stuff.
SC: I think it’s safe to say you came 4th, 4th, 4th between the two successes yes?
CWG: Well there some extenuating circumstances and stuff.
SC: Oh yes please tell us what they were then?.
CWG: Well Shaun Edwards had a bit of a head cold during that period.

2. Talking about Shaun Edwards, on your CV it states you were head coach at Wasps when they won the 3rd of the HC treble, that’s not strictly correct is it now? Wasn’t Mr. Edwards who was head coach not you?.
CWG: Jeeze it’s getting warmer in here, Ahem cough well strictly speaking it was Shaun that was head coach, so ahem fidget fidget cough cough my CV is a tad…… strewth how many guys are you across the table.

3. Ok, glad we got that sorted out. Let’s go on to another link to the Wasps days….. namely Robert Howely.
CWG: Ah that’s better! get off Edwards and on to good old Robbo!!
SC: Ahem yes indeed, So Howley had a lot of gip last year with his 7 game no win streak. But who had the worst no win streak for Wales, you or Howely?
CWG: Ah well lets see now, well it was very wet back then, and wasn’t Iestyn Harries playing for me then?.... Oh no he wasn’t damn….. I think it was good old Robbo who deffo has the worst streak, yes I can safely say that.
SC: You wouldn’t be surprised to hear it was your 8 match no win streak that that beat his
CWG: Well there some extenuating circumstances and stuff.
SC: Oh yes please tell us what they were then?.
CWG: Well Shaun Edwards had a bit of a head cold during that period.

4. OK last question, it’s been said that your two “slams” have made you a national institution, and added to that the Lions “emphatic” win have laid claim to you been the best coach in the world. However on closer analysis your history at international level (both Ireland and Wales) have been rather poor don’t you agree?
CWG: Of course not… jeeze its getter warmer and warmer!!, my record for Wales speaks for itself…. Two slams and all that stuff
SC: ok let’s look at the period between the autumn internationals after the 1st Slam and right up to the 2nd slam

L  03 Dec 2011 Wales 18-24 Australia  
L  21 Oct 2011 Wales 18-21 Australia  
L  15 Oct 2011 Wales 8-9 France  
W  08 Oct 2011 Ireland 10-22 Wales  
W  02 Oct 2011 Wales 66-0 Fiji  
W  26 Sep 2011 Wales 81-7 Namibia  
W  18 Sep 2011 Wales 17-10 Samoa  
L  11 Sep 2011 South Africa 17-16 Wales
W  20 Aug 2011 Wales 28-13 Argentina  
W  13 Aug 2011 Wales 19-9 England  
L  06 Aug 2011 England 23-19 Wales  
L  04 Jun 2011 Wales 28-31 Barbarians  
L  19 Mar 2011 France 28-9 Wales  
W  12 Mar 2011 Wales 19-13 Ireland  
W  26 Feb 2011 Italy 16-24 Wales  
W  12 Feb 2011 Scotland 6-24 Wales  
L  04 Feb 2011 Wales 19-26 England  
L  27 Nov 2010 Wales 25-37 New Zealand
D  19 Nov 2010 Wales 16-16 Fiji  
L  13 Nov 2010 Wales 25-29 South Africa  
L  06 Nov 2010 Wales 16-25 Australia  
L  26 Jun 2010 New Zealand 29-10 Wales  
L  19 Jun 2010 New Zealand 42-9 Wales  
L  05 Jun 2010 Wales 31-34 South Africa  
W  20 Mar 2010 Wales 33-10 Italy  
L  13 Mar 2010 Ireland 27-12 Wales
L  26 Feb 2010 Wales 20-26 France
W 13 Feb 2010 Wales 31-24 Scotland
L  06 Feb 2010 England 30-17 Wales
L  28 Nov 2009 Wales 12-33 Australia
W 21 Nov 2009 Wales 33-16 Argentina
W 13 Nov 2009 Wales 17-13 Samoa
L  07 Nov 2009 Wales 12-19 New Zealand
L  21 Mar 2009 Wales 15-17 Ireland  
W  14 Mar 2009 Italy 15-20 Wales  
L  27 Feb 2009 France 21-16 Wales  
W  14 Feb 2009 Wales 23-15 England  
W  08 Feb 2009 Scotland 13-26 Wales  
W  29 Nov 2008 Wales 21-18 Australia  
L  22 Nov 2008 Wales 9-29 New Zealand  
W  14 Nov 2008 Wales 34-13 Canada  
L  08 Nov 2008 Wales 15-20 South Africa
L  14 Jun 2008 South Africa 37-21 Wales  
L  07 Jun 2008 South Africa 43-17 Wales

Well thank you very much Cur Warren I believe that concludes the interview, and……. Ahem we’ll be in touch.

flyhalffactory

In fairness, whilst he has a dire record and should have done miles better with Wales against the 3N in terms of talent perhaps this is a turning point for him.

SCW from appointment in 1997 - RWC99 won 1 match in 14 (win rate of 7%) with England vs the 3N sides.

From post RWC99 to RWC03 he won 12 matches in 13 (win rate 92%) with England vs. the 3N sides.

fa0019 wrote:flyhalffactory

In fairness, whilst he has a dire record and should have done miles better with Wales against the 3N in terms of talent perhaps this is a turning point for him.

SCW from appointment in 1997 - RWC99 won 1 match in 14 (win rate of 7%) with England vs the 3N sides.

From post RWC99 to RWC03 he won 12 matches in 13 (win rate 92%) with England vs. the 3N sides.

'97-'99 was Woodwards's first stint with England. He did better in his 2nd sting. Gats is already in his second stint with Wales (and Warburton is no Martin Johnson, or Priestland is no Wilko)!

Give Warburton time... he's a very good player and only made his debut in 2009.

Jonno never really came to notice until the 1995 RWC... Lions tests in 1993 or not, in those days the front five just shut up, tackled and drove mauls.

Sin é wrote:

fa0019 wrote:flyhalffactory

In fairness, whilst he has a dire record and should have done miles better with Wales against the 3N in terms of talent perhaps this is a turning point for him.

SCW from appointment in 1997 - RWC99 won 1 match in 14 (win rate of 7%) with England vs the 3N sides.

From post RWC99 to RWC03 he won 12 matches in 13 (win rate 92%) with England vs. the 3N sides.

'97-'99 was Woodwards's first stint with England. He did better in his 2nd sting. Gats is already in his second stint with Wales (and Warburton is no Martin Johnson, or Priestland is no Wilko)!

The point is being a "cheery cherry data picker" is just that

I remember the talk not so long ago of Gatland clutching at straws to hold onto his job in fact I will go as far to say that in a 20 match period he lost 15 and against Samoa, Italy and Scotland he (Wales) clearly were fortunate to win so I am pretty sure that's as close to worst international record you can have.

But will agree he (along with regionalism) has certainly made the Welsh squad fitter, stronger and more competitive, its just that IMHO his coaching nous is very questionable

I think this series victory will have given him a big mental victory for himself and the players involved. It means nothing if its not applied but as I mentioned earlier, bigger turnarounds have occurred in the past and the team has always had potential.

Not really cherry picking given I was stating one RWC cycle from another. Pretty clear cut.

fa0019 wrote:I think this series victory will have given him a big mental victory for himself and the players involved. It means nothing if its not applied but as I mentioned earlier, bigger turnarounds have occurred in the past and the team has always had potential.

Not really cherry picking given I was stating one RWC cycle from another. Pretty clear cut.

Not referring to you mate but the OP initial statement

fa0019 wrote:Give Warburton time... he's a very good player and only made his debut in 2009.

Jonno never really came to notice until the 1995 RWC... Lions tests in 1993 or not, in those days the front five just shut up, tackled and drove mauls.

I agree with you Warbuton at 24 is very much in Johnnos league and potentially is a better player, and an on-form and more importantly confident Priestland is as good as any International 10

in agreement there FHF on the original post comment... not so sure on Priestland (modern day Charlie Hodgson).

fa0019 wrote:Give Warburton time... he's a very good player and only made his debut in 2009.

Jonno never really came to notice until the 1995 RWC... Lions tests in 1993 or not, in those days the front five just shut up, tackled and drove mauls.

Never mind about any of that... Halfpenny, North, Roberts or Warburton. Adam Jones is the most important name...and a name not getting any younger.

SecretFly wrote:

fa0019 wrote:Give Warburton time... he's a very good player and only made his debut in 2009.

Jonno never really came to notice until the 1995 RWC... Lions tests in 1993 or not, in those days the front five just shut up, tackled and drove mauls.

Never mind about any of that... Halfpenny, North, Roberts or Warburton.  Adam Jones is the most important name...and a name not getting any younger.

This is true in my opinion too. Assuming Scott Andrews is the second choice tighthead (or maybe Mitchell), they need to be given two AI's minimum (Tonga and certainly Argentina) to see where they are. We certainly need to protect Adam a bit up till 2015.

Os Du Randt was 35 when he won his 2nd RWC title and was the cornerstone of the bok pack. Jason Leonard too was a great asset for England in 2003... always shored up the scrum when he came on. Adam Jones will be what 34 come the next world cup?

Adam Jones will be old news come the RWC, and Samson Lee will be the one we all hope remains injury free.

flyhalffactory wrote:

fa0019 wrote:Give Warburton time... he's a very good player and only made his debut in 2009.

Jonno never really came to notice until the 1995 RWC... Lions tests in 1993 or not, in those days the front five just shut up, tackled and drove mauls.

I agree with you Warbuton at 24 is very much in Johnnos league and potentially is a better player, and an on-form and more importantly confident Priestland is as good as any International 10

AW Jones has out shone him as captain on the Lions. He looked like a little boy lost when POC was around. He has no presence. Gatland has made him captain because he would never dream of saying boo to a goose (and it keeps the rest in line who might).

Priestland is ok, but he needs to be better than any other international around (the way Jonny was when England were at their best).

same thing was said of AW Jones on the last tour. Made up for it this time around.

Fully fit I think Warburton is an excellent player... he played reasonable in the tests despite not being fit.

fa0019 wrote:same thing was said of AW Jones on the last tour. Made up for it this time around.

Fully fit I think Warburton is an excellent player... he played reasonable in the tests despite not being fit.

If he wasn't Welsh and captain, he wouldn't have made the squad, let alone the team.

As for AW Jones - the bok's lineout of Matfield & Botha was a very different proposition to what the Australian one was and that is why AWJ didn't do so well in SA.

Sin é wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:

fa0019 wrote:Give Warburton time... he's a very good player and only made his debut in 2009.

Jonno never really came to notice until the 1995 RWC... Lions tests in 1993 or not, in those days the front five just shut up, tackled and drove mauls.

I agree with you Warbuton at 24 is very much in Johnnos league and potentially is a better player, and an on-form and more importantly confident Priestland is as good as any International 10

AW Jones has out shone him as captain on the Lions. He looked like a little boy lost when POC was around. He has no presence. Gatland has made him captain because he would never dream of saying boo to a goose (and it keeps the rest in line who might).

Priestland is ok, but he needs to be better than any other international around (the way Jonny was when England were at their best).

I would say that's total utter rubbish, even POC himself stated the guy didn't need him or BOD to advise him, and he was immensely impressed with Sams presence, confidence and humility. I haven't agreed with much of Gatlands calls but the combo of an on-form Lydiate/Warburton is probably the best in the NH possibly even better than that