Is it right to give the putt???

Id like opinions on this.........

I recently played a scratch match and was put out last in the afternoon singles. I holed a 20footer to stay 4 down through 10 even though I was only level par gross. My opponent was playing brilliant golf and I was just hanging in there at that point.
I got going over the next 6 holes with an eagle and 2 birdies to get it to 1 down on the 17th green. I had a 15 footer for birdie and when my opponent thinned his bunker shot through the green he told me to pick it up. (All Square)

We had a good bit of banter on the way round and the game was played in a great spirit (I had advised him of a local rule giving him a free drop on our 4th, which he won. He had spent a long time looking and eventually finding my ball up the 7th which I won) Before we got to the 18th tee I shook his hand and said "whatever the result, iv had a great game with you and really enjoyed it" he said the same and we waited while the green cleared (par3)

About 40-50 people in total were around the 18th green so we knew the result was obviously relying on our match. (bit of a grudge match between our clubs as well!)
I hit it to 40feet, he hit it to about 2.5 feet. We got to the green and I holed my putt for birdie resulting in my team getting a bit over excited.
As I picked my ball out of the hole I also picked up his marker, conceding the putt and halving our match. We shook hands and his team went mad celebrating while mine were fairly quiet....
Our 1/2 meant that the opposition had won the match by 1/2 a point and claimed promotion.

Now....... I gave him that putt (and said this to him at the time) as I believed a draw was the right result. Our better ball score was something like -9 and it was a game I felt neither of us deserved to lose.
I didn't actually think he would miss from 2.5 feet but I didn't actually consider it at the time (some say it was a bit longer but I think 2.5feet is about right) all I thought was that in the spirit of our game a draw was the right result.

In peoples opinion should I (and would you) have given the putt on this basis..... I also didn't know the match score at the time.

A couple of others disagreed with what I had did and said that you should always make them putt out if a game is tied but I disagree.

I welcome your comments........

I'm not sure "a right result" comes into it but that said, you played 17 holes with him so were better positioned than anyone to know if he was going to miss.

I would like to know whether you would have given the putt had you known that the whole match and promotion was "on the cards"? Was there a Team Captain that might have been able to advise? I don't have a problem with you giving the putt, but someone should have made you aware of the overall situation imho.

Played in the spirit of the game I would say - hardly the Ryder Cup after all!
If it was for your living then I would say make him putt.

Very sporting of you and to be admired. I've been in a similar position a number of times but never gave a put that would jeopardize me or the team a win. But I freely admit I'm very competitive.

wouldn't expect to be called up for team duty again if i were you, sounds like you had a bit of a man-crush on your opponent  

A tale that Maverick would be proud of ;-)

.....and think of it another way, he didn't have the chance to hole it and be the hero, I would have wanted to putt it.

Magnanimous thing to do, and entirely your call - so if you thought it was the right thing do to, that's all that mattered.

Well played, IMO.

How serious do people take these club games? If thats all true, then fair play, you did the right thing, bet you felt like a king after rolling in your 40ft (??) birdie putt, then casually flipping the guy his ball marker.

Beninho - you hit the nail on the head. I felt like I had won a certain victory by being able to give him his putt.

He hadn't missed anything inside 5 feet all day so I don't think he would have missed it.

Skipper said to me in the bar "if you felt it was a gimmie then it was a gimme, I don't care about the reasons"

Iv played in both games for the scratch team since then and have another this weekend.

Had I known the match score I think I would still have given him his putt as it wouldn't change my opinion on our match.

Iv always enjoyed golfs etiquette & nuances and I feel that "doing the right thing" is key to the game. Be it calling a penalty on yourself, agreeing a drop with playing partners, or giving a putt is one of the attractions of the sport..............




All that said, if it was the WGC matchplay and that putt was worth $1m........ maybe I would see it

As someone who gained a reputation for being stingy about giving putt's I don't understand why people are generous when the point is to win. I didn't care if not giving putt's meant the favor was not returned as I was confident my putting would prevail.

2.5 feet is very missable under the conditions you describe.

I think it would have been quite niggardly not to give a putt in the circumstances.

Sounds like a great match with a fitting end, and club matchplay isn't exactly super serious stuff so it would have been a bit peevish not to give it. 2.5 feet is of course miss-able but so what, it's a good match, so end on a gentlemanly note.

Would you still have conceded if you'd missed your 40 footer and he had the 2.5 foot putt for the win?

Ha good question Davie!

"a draw was the right result" not for me, you will never know now but if he'd have holed then it would have been the right result.

Wasn't trying to make any clever point there Goldie .. just a genuine question

Really? You fought back from 4 down at the turn, holing a 20 footer for a half on ten, making an eagle, two other birdies and a 40 footer on the last for a two, and you didn't think he might have stood over that 3 footer and thought to himself 'I had this in the bag, 4 up, and now I've thinned a bunker shot and the Bar Steward's just holed from 40 feet, if I miss this I'll never live it down'. Or you did think that and didn't care? I'd hate to play you when you wanted to win.

Valid question too Davie.
Also put yourself in the position of your team mates that had gathered round, the ones who managed to win their games, to see it was all for nothing, and what about the team who your opponents beat to promotion? Bet they would be really pleased the putt was given.

Gold,
I don't think people take Club matches that seriously do they?

Depends who you are, scratch league could be fierce when I played. May not be important ti some people, but is to others.

I play in a pretty good scratch league but I don't think I'd be upset if someone gave a 2 and a half on the last at all, maybe if it had a massive break or was downhill, but a straight forward putt given the circumstances would be acceptable to me.

Nah sorry not for me. Don't forget nerves would have come into it, unmissable length, obviously the game result riding on it, and a lot watching, he says he'd holed them all day so maybe he would be thinking " don't miss now"?

Missable that should say, darn predictive text

How could the other team win the tie by half a point? The minimum possible is one point. If the other guy had missed that putt, your point would have meant the tie was drawn. Did that one point make all the difference? How did they know because presumably the other team involved was playing somewhere else that evening?

I think you may be agonising over something that wasn't that critical.

Too generous super, I would never expect a putt of that length on the final green to be given, not sure many would. We can all be best mates in the 19th!!!

I'm just amazed that oneorthree didn't know the importance of his match. I played a couple of weekends ago in the semi of one of our "big" club comps. It's not the same standard as you guys are talking about but we were away and it was very tight. I was playing anchor leg. Going down 16, one of our supporters came up to me to tell me that my match could be really important and to hang on in there (I was all square at the time). A half in mine could win the match (in the event of a tie, away team wins)! I lost 16 with a lip-out, won 17 with a 4 foot downhiller and halved the last. In the event, it didn't matter because the guy immediately in front of me turned his match around and won on the last. But I knew how tight things were.

I'm with goldwolf on this one, our league is certainly competitive, and I reckon I'd get lynched by some of my team-mates if I'd done that when the team result is riding on it!  It's not about individual matches anyway in my opinion, it's all about the team result and trying to win your point for the team.  I've won matches before when the team's lost, very hollow feeling....

A gimme's a gimme, but a 2.5 footer with the pressure riding on this putt on the last (from the description given) is not a gimme in my opinion.  If I was the opponent, I'd be fulling expecting to be asked to hole it.  And I've never worried too much about asking people to hole putts if they are borderline gimme's, if it's clearly a gimme they shouldn't miss, should they? As others have said, I don't think the "right result" is particularly relevant.

However, all of that said, very commendable actions and in the spirit of the game.  And I know I'm too competitive!!

I gave someone a four footer on the last following a summer scratch match like that once.
Was in the spirirt of the game but wish I hadn't when the next time I met the guy he said he remembered me because he beat me 8&6 when it was in fact a half.

Bliley I would love to play some of you generous lot! Don't think I've ever been given a putt outside a foot in 30 years of playing (except when I had 2 for it, which to be fair I would have needed! Lol)

Quite often I just walk up and knock those sort of putts in one handed on the move. Hole most of them.

I wouldn't have given him the putt. As has been said 2.5 foot in the circumstances is more than tricky and longer than a usual gimme in no pressure circumstances.

If a draw was the 'right' result then you would presumably have made him putt had you missed, which is a bit odd. Surely a putt is a gimme or its not?

I never understand the whole 'why take it that seriously?' thing. If its not that serious what's the problem in making him putt and seeing if he misses/holes?

Davie wrote:A tale that Maverick would be proud of ;-)

With you there Davie, not least because of this, from the handicap thread;

OneOrThree wrote:

78 net 72 = 5.8
81 net 75 = 5.9
79 net 73 = 5.9
76 net 70 = 5.7
32 points = 5.8
76 net 70 = 5.4
33 points = 5.5
77 net 71 = 5.2 (got cut .3 due to taking a 9 on the par 4 7th)

Had hoped to get out and play in the mid week medal but weather is rubbish.

Scratch match this weekend, been enjoying playing Scratch team this year but it has caused me to miss a few comps. Iv played 3 scratch team games and haven't lost a singles yet, 2 wins and a half (going to post a thread about that one!)

Id love to break par but at the moment my short game isn't good enough.

Apart from anything else, what is happening to CSS? It appears to be
73
?
73
71
?
72
?
71/70 depending on the SI of the 7th

Maybe we're unusual but at this stage of the season (pretty much all summer, tbh), CSS at my club is consistently the same as SSS.

I just find it particularly strange that someone might post a series of scores, the best of which is four over, mention a desire to break par but say they think their short game and putting isn't up to it and then tell a tale of a gross 67 with 20 foot putts for halves and 40 footers on the last for birdie. Even without the supposed gimmie which would have been completely out of context this sounds iffy, but add that into the mix (I'm surprised the quote wasn't more along the lines of 'I don't think you would have missed that putt, but in these circumstances, I would never give you the opportunity.' as Nicklaus famously said to Jacklin) and this stinks of bs.

As you can tell, I had a bad round yesterday ;-)

Our SS can jump around a lot depending on the weather. Think how sadistic the greenkeepers are when setting pin positions makes a difference too.

SmithersJones,

Not sure why im bothering to justify myself but work is slow.....
Our standard scratch tends to rely heavily on who plays.

We have about 15 golfers off between 1-4 and if ten of them play then the standard scratch usually goes down.
In the summer when its dry my home course (despite being 6850 off whites) can be taken apart. Especially the back 9 where you have 3 par 5s all of which are no more than a drive and 5 iron for a category 1 golfer when the course is burnt. You also have 2 par 4s that are driveable in there as well. 13th is 365ish but downhill all the way, 17th is 380ish but if you can hit a big powerfade or carry it 270ish then it is a drive and a flick.

If ten of our best 20 golfers play then the standard scratch usually always goes down. If they don't then it usually goes up, as we don't get huge turnouts for most medals. When I had 77 net 71 last week there were 5 rounds under par and someone who plays off 3 had a putt on the last to tie the course record (66)

I putted fairly well in that scratch match. The putts on 10/18 were by far the longest I holed all day. I stiffed a 7 iron for eagle on a par 5 and was given a 10 footer for birdie on the 15th when my opponent missed for par.
Id had a mare round the front 9 with 2 lost balls.

But yes, if it suits you I have made up the story purely to generate a thread. bell end.

Had a mare round the front, 2 lost balls, and you were level gross through 10? What is this some sort of pitch and putt course?

Why not gold? THe other week I bogeyed the first, lost a ball on 2 then went Birdie-Eagle-Birdie to be one under after 5.

Doesn't need to be a pitch and putt.

That's not a mare 9 though super, it's a good 9 with a couple of bad holes.

CSS in our place is regularly 34pts in medal play

At my course the more lower handicap players that played the higher the CSS used to be as they are more often than not close to handicap, whereas you get nett 60's and the like with higher handicappers.

oneorthree wrote:

In the summer when its dry my home course (despite being 6850 off whites) can be taken apart. Especially the back 9 where you have 3 par 5s all of which are no more than a drive and 5 iron for a category 1 golfer when the course is burnt. You also have 2 par 4s that are driveable in there as well. 13th is 365ish but downhill all the way, 17th is 380ish but if you can hit a big powerfade or carry it 270ish then it is a drive and a flick.

I putted fairly well in that scratch match. The putts on 10/18 were by far the longest I holed all day. I stiffed a 7 iron for eagle on a par 5 and was given a 10 footer for birdie on the 15th when my opponent missed for par.
Id had a mare round the front 9 with 2 lost balls.

6850, less 1500 for the 3 par 5s (can't be much over 500 if you can hit driver, 7 iron, even if it is bone dry and downhill). Another 650 for 2 driveable par 4s (I'm crediting you and your cat 1 players with tour pro yardages, of course, but hey-ho) then 13 and 17 make 745 (unless 13 and 17 are the driveable par 4s, in which case make your mind up, is it driveable or a drive and a flick?). So those 7 holes, pars 4 and 5, make up about 2900 yards. That leaves the other 11 holes, which include at least 3 but more likely 4 or 5 par 3s, to make up the remaining 3950. Let's guess at 4 par 3s and assume they're all monsters of 200yards. We now have 6 4s and a 5 totalling 3150. Let's say the 5 is 550, that leaves 6 par 4s of around 420 each. Sounds a brute.

Well done on getting to the turn in level par despite the two lost balls, btw. Since you didn't hole anything longer than 20 feet you must have stiffed it at least 4 times on that 9. Seems it doesn't matter about not putting your wedges inside 12 feet if you can do it with your mid-long irons.

I'm sure you had a great match, I'm just not sure you shot 67, one outside the course record. And like you, it's a slow day at work so a bit of bell-endery keeps me amused.

Especially in high wind Gold, when their skittery worm rapers aren't affected by the wind as much.

thought I would check the club website to make sure im not talking bs.. just checked a scorecard, course is 6718 off whites so please accept my most humble apologies. Par 3s are 198, 233, 182, 188 off the whites. a few 4s over 400 (7,8,9th are 425,419,461)
Par 5s are 570,516,531,516.

But of course it is completely unfeasible that a hole may play different to its actual length.
After all if a Hole is 200 yards it will always be a 4 iron for me because I hit a 4 iron 200. I cant imagine how silly things like a 15mph wind or rock hard fairways would affect that.

Thinking back on the front 9 of the scratch match I was probably wasn't level but more likely a couple over. Par,Par,Par,lost ball hole conceded,par,par,birdie,lost ball hole conceded,par. so yes I was optimistic with level par, probably more likely +2/+3 with the lost balls
the 20footer on 10 was to half the hole in bogey.

Iv now remembered why I never post on internet forums. Nigh on impossible to have a genuine discussion with Tools who live through a keyboard.

goldwolf wrote:Bliley I would love to play some of you generous lot! Don't think I've ever been given a putt outside a foot in 30 years of playing (except when I had 2 for it, which to be fair I would have needed! Lol)

I must be from the Goldie school of gimmies as 2.5 foot is exceptionally generous no matter what the circumstances.

Which course is it oneorthree?

I'm interested to hear Super and others question whether club matches are that important or "serious"

Though I am no where near good enough to play scratch leagues, I've played quite a few mens and mixed friendly matches against other clubs this year and while they are very definitely "friendly" and aimed more at the older members and/or higher handicappers - they are still very competetive! I don't see a point in playing ANY game or sport unless you want to win - but failing to win should be taken in good humour

Interestingly one match I played in this year was a mens match at home to Sanford Springs. Although as I say, these matches are usually more casual affairs and aimed at the mid to high handicappers while the good players play scratch leagues, it seems that the reputation of our course had spread to Sanford Springs and not only did they want to send 8 pairs instead of the usual six, but they also were loaded up with much better players than these matches usually see - they obviously fancied a free round at our place!

As it happened my regular partner and I (19 and 22) were drawn against a scratch and a VERY good 9 handicapper - and we got soundly spanked. Having said that, the atmosphere was anything but serious although still competetive. We were pleased to take them to the 15th. Very friendly though and the scratch player was very complimentary to us, though I fell victim to the old "you've dropped your lipstick" gag as early as the 4th green - yes I'd heard it many times before but wasn't expecting it from a visiting player in a match! All intended, and taken, in good spirit though

To qualify my thinking is that while I like competition and to win in Scratch events, the will and desire to win would be usurped by the embarrassment I would feel by not conceding such a miniscule putt (providing it was a straight, flat putt.) when it is for a half.

Oneor

IMO - well given sir. The correct choice if it was a good game, good company you'd enjoyed yourself and no-one deserved to lose. Very gentlemanly and sporting of you. Winning really, really isn't everything.

I agree with davie, since when were these types of matches played without a bit of niggle and will on both sides to win?

oneorthree wrote: Nigh on impossible to have a genuine discussion with Tools who live through a keyboard.

It's the genuine bit that seems to be your problem, not anyone else's. If you hadn't lied about how well you'd scored to begin with, I wouldn't have pointed out the bs.

Now that we have the real picture, well played and although I'd never have considered giving the putt myself having turned around such a deficit, good for you if you feel better for having done so (please don't read any nuance in that comment, I genuinely mean it.)

oneorthree wrote:Iv now remembered why I never post on internet forums. Nigh on impossible to have a genuine discussion with Tools who live through a keyboard.

Don't be too discouraged, I enjoyed hearing about your round and feel you brought up an interesting and slightly different topic for us to debate. I bet if you told the story in a pub someone would bring up doubts.