BOD resentment for Gatland lingers

by kiakahaaotearoa Thu 05 Sep 2013, 2:26 pm

First topic message reminder :

Just seen an article on planetrugby where BOD has admitted that his disappointment with not being selected for the third test naturally carries with it some resentment for Gatland. He was quick to point out that Davies played a good game but feels that he could have equally contributed good things to that performance. http://www.planetrugby.com/lions/story/0,25883,16024_8907321,00.html

Is this a way of increasing ticket sales for the Wales Ireland match? Is this a journalist seeking out a story and BOD simply stating the truth? Is it wrong to make a statement like this now after the good way in which BOD conducted himself before and after the match? Does this resentment go further back than the Lions series to when Gatland was Ireland coach or when he made those comments before the Wales Ireland 6N match about how the Welsh view those games?

I'd like to know your opinion.

by Taylorman Fri 06 Sep 2013, 11:31 pm

Is there a replacement for BOD whirling in Irish circles as it appears it will now be another Kiwi coach that finally ends his career unless he bows out. And if its done in similar supposedly controversial circumstances again BODs experiences wont necessarily be memorable ones where Kiwis are concerned. Between Mealamu, Umaga, Gatland and possibly Schmit he could claim he's had a raw deal. Interesting days to come perhaps?

by Sin é Fri 06 Sep 2013, 11:45 pm

Taylorman wrote:Is there a replacement for BOD whirling in Irish circles as it appears it will now be another Kiwi coach that finally ends his career unless he bows out. And if its done in similar supposedly controversial circumstances again BODs experiences wont necessarily be memorable ones where Kiwis are concerned. Between Mealamu, Umaga, Gatland and possibly Schmit he could claim he's had a raw deal. Interesting days to come perhaps?

I don't think Schmidt would go out of his way like Gatland did to humiliate him. Anyway, Brian is retiring at the end of the season.

For the record, Gatland is very different to any of the kiwi coaches we have here - all are really liked and fitted in well (including any players like Jason Holland, Doug Howlett & Isa Nacewa). He was the only misfit and got the bullet.

by Taylorman Fri 06 Sep 2013, 11:49 pm

yet easily the most successful since getting it...hmmm...

by Sin é Sat 07 Sep 2013, 12:03 am

Taylorman wrote:yet easily the most successful since getting it...hmmm...

None of them have coached internationally, so hard to compare them. Schmidt's club career is better than Gatlands. Declan Kidney has a pretty good record as well.
Gatland:
1 Heineken Cup
1 English Premiership
1 ITM Cup
2 Grand Slams in 5 years
1 Lions Tour

Declan Kidney - IRB International Coach of the Year 2009
U19 World Cup
GS - Ireland A in 2002 or 03
Several Celtic Leagues
2 Heineken Cups
Churchill Cup
1 Grand Slam

And wins over South Africa & Australia (a few) Wink

by Taylorman Sat 07 Sep 2013, 12:42 am

Deans, JK, Hansen, Henry all have...plus there'll be more...but none as successful as Gatland when excluding the AB's

by Guest Sat 07 Sep 2013, 12:51 am

Sin é wrote:
Taylorman wrote:yet easily the most successful since getting it...hmmm...
None of them have coached internationally, so hard to compare them. Schmidt's club career is better than Gatlands. Declan Kidney has a pretty good record as well.
Gatland:
1 Heineken Cup
1 English Premiership
1 ITM Cup
2 Grand Slams in 5 years
1 Lions Tour

Declan Kidney - IRB International Coach of the Year 2009
U19 World Cup
GS - Ireland A in 2002 or 03
Several Celtic Leagues
2 Heineken Cups
Churchill Cup
1 Grand Slam

And wins over South Africa & Australia (a few)

Clutching at straws a little when you mention Churchill Cups, Ireland A slams or U19 World Cups. Sir Warren hasn't ever had to lower himself to have to pad his cv out with that.

by Sin é Sat 07 Sep 2013, 12:58 am

Gatland's record with Wales against SH teams is appalling. He has one grand slam more than Kidney (and was 2 years longer in the job than Kidney).

Deans has won a Tri-Nations with Australia. They were also placed 3rd in the Rugby World Cup (beating Wales).

by Sin é Sat 07 Sep 2013, 1:06 am

Risca Rev wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Taylorman wrote:yet easily the most successful since getting it...hmmm...
None of them have coached internationally, so hard to compare them. Schmidt's club career is better than Gatlands. Declan Kidney has a pretty good record as well.
Gatland:
1 Heineken Cup
1 English Premiership
1 ITM Cup
2 Grand Slams in 5 years
1 Lions Tour

Declan Kidney - IRB International Coach of the Year 2009
U19 World Cup
GS - Ireland A in 2002 or 03
Several Celtic Leagues
2 Heineken Cups
Churchill Cup
1 Grand Slam

And wins over South Africa & Australia (a few)

Clutching at straws a little when you mention Churchill Cups, Ireland A slams or U19 World Cups. Sir Warren hasn't ever had to lower himself to have to pad his cv out with that.

Well, when he was Ireland coach, he would have been responsible for Ireland A, so he obviously didn't win anything so of course he wouldn't be putting them on his cv.

BOD was on that U19 world cup team Wink

by The Saint Sat 07 Sep 2013, 8:14 am

Why's Sin going about Gatland and his credentials again? They're unquestionable.

RE this u19 world cup. Were NZ, SA, Aus, SA and Eng playing? I doubt it Whistle

by Portnoy's Complaint Sat 07 Sep 2013, 8:44 am

If, as has no doubt been pointed out, Schmidt doesn't drop BOD for at least some matches this season, he'll find himself in danger of being painted into a corner in his preparations for 2015.

by Sin é Sat 07 Sep 2013, 9:50 am

The Saint wrote:Why's Sin going about Gatland and his credentials again? They're unquestionable.

RE this u19 world cup. Were NZ, SA, Aus, SA and Eng playing? I doubt it

I think its Gatland fans bringing them up, I just keep bringing them down.

Ireland drew with SA 17-17 in the QF, beat Argentina 18-3 in the Semis and France 0-18 (in France) in the final.

by Sin é Sat 07 Sep 2013, 9:56 am

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:If, as has no doubt been pointed out, Schmidt doesn't drop BOD for at least some matches this season, he'll find himself in danger of being painted into a corner in his preparations for 2015.

Well, I'd imagine he won't play him in all matches between now and then and Schmidt certainly won't be wheeling him out in a press conference just before dropping him.

by rainbow-warrior Sat 07 Sep 2013, 10:09 am

Sin é wrote:Gatland's record with Wales against SH teams is appalling. He has one grand slam more than Kidney (and was 2 years longer in the job than Kidney).

Deans has won a Tri-Nations with Australia. They were also placed 3rd in the Rugby World Cup (beating Wales).

He's got 1 more LION's tour win more than Kidney although why we are comparing him to a piece of offal amuses me. Gatland has won three 6 Nations Championships.....oh an we beat Ireland in the 1/4 finals of the World Cup.

Pathetic

by Sin é Sat 07 Sep 2013, 10:14 am

rainbow-warrior wrote:
Sin é wrote:Gatland's record with Wales against SH teams is appalling. He has one grand slam more than Kidney (and was 2 years longer in the job than Kidney).

Deans has won a Tri-Nations with Australia. They were also placed 3rd in the Rugby World Cup (beating Wales).
He's got 1 more LION's tour win more than Kidney although why we are comparing him to a piece of offal amuses me. Gatland has won three 6 Nations Championships.....oh an we beat Ireland in the 1/4 finals of the World Cup.

Pathetic

Very classy.

by rainbow-warrior Sat 07 Sep 2013, 10:19 am

Sin é wrote:
rainbow-warrior wrote:
Sin é wrote:Gatland's record with Wales against SH teams is appalling. He has one grand slam more than Kidney (and was 2 years longer in the job than Kidney).

Deans has won a Tri-Nations with Australia. They were also placed 3rd in the Rugby World Cup (beating Wales).
He's got 1 more LION's tour win more than Kidney although why we are comparing him to a piece of offal amuses me. Gatland has won three 6 Nations Championships.....oh an we beat Ireland in the 1/4 finals of the World Cup.

Pathetic
Very classy.

Classier than keeping a horse in my house:yahoo:

by Knowsit17 Sat 07 Sep 2013, 11:04 am

Sin é wrote:
Taylorman wrote:yet easily the most successful since getting it...hmmm...
None of them have coached internationally, so hard to compare them. Schmidt's club career is better than Gatlands. Declan Kidney has a pretty good record as well.
Gatland:
1 Heineken Cup
3 English Premiership
1 ITM Cup
2 Grand Slams in 5 years
1 Lions Tour

Declan Kidney - IRB International Coach of the Year 2009
U19 World Cup
GS - Ireland A in 2002 or 03
Several Celtic Leagues
2 Heineken Cups
Churchill Cup
1 Grand Slam

And wins over South Africa & Australia (a few)

Fixed that for you

by The Saint Sat 07 Sep 2013, 12:38 pm

Kideny has one win over SA and one over Aus. That's less than a few Sin. I'd be mildly amused to see "a few wins over Aus and SA" on a coaches CV.

by Knowsit17 Sat 07 Sep 2013, 12:54 pm

The Saint wrote:Kideny has one win over SA and one over Aus. That's less than a few Sin. I'd be mildly amused to see "a few wins over Aus and SA" on a coaches CV.

Good point come to think of it. One more win than Gatland has (not counting the two Lions wins), hardly a notable point of separation.

Gatland - part of an exclusive group of coaches to have won more than one GS.
Kidney - part of an exclusive group of coaches to have won a GS with Ireland.

Run

by Sin é Sat 07 Sep 2013, 2:42 pm

Knowsit17 wrote:
The Saint wrote:Kideny has one win over SA and one over Aus. That's less than a few Sin. I'd be mildly amused to see "a few wins over Aus and SA" on a coaches CV.
Good point come to think of it. One more win than Gatland has (not counting the two Lions wins), hardly a notable point of separation.

Gatland - part of an exclusive group of coaches to have won more than one GS.
Kidney - part of an exclusive group of coaches to have won a GS with Ireland.

If thats the case, having one more grand slam than another is hardly a notable point of separation.

Gatland's 6Ns record / Kidney's 6Ns record
2008 - Grand Slam / -
2009 - 4th / Grand Slam
2010 - 4th / 2nd
2011 - 4th / 3rd
2012 - Grand Slam / 3rd
2013 - Howley* / 5th

Having lost to Australia 7/8 times is a notable separation, however. A Kidney coached Ireland have beaten Australia in the SH when they were playing well - something the Welsh Lions struggled to manage to do.

*I hope Gatland wasn't coaching Wales when he was attending the other nations training camps as Lions coach. Wink

by The Saint Sat 07 Sep 2013, 3:02 pm

Sin é wrote:
Knowsit17 wrote:
The Saint wrote:Kideny has one win over SA and one over Aus. That's less than a few Sin. I'd be mildly amused to see "a few wins over Aus and SA" on a coaches CV.
Good point come to think of it. One more win than Gatland has (not counting the two Lions wins), hardly a notable point of separation.

Gatland - part of an exclusive group of coaches to have won more than one GS.
Kidney - part of an exclusive group of coaches to have won a GS with Ireland.

If thats the case, having one more grand slam than another is hardly a notable point of separation.

Gatland's 6Ns record / Kidney's 6Ns record
2008 - Grand Slam / -
2009 - 4th / Grand Slam
2010 - 4th / 2nd
2011 - 4th / 3rd
2012 - Grand Slam / 3rd
2013 - Howley* / 5th

Having lost to Australia 7/8 times is a notable separation, however. A Kidney coached Ireland have beaten Australia in the SH when they were playing well - something the Welsh Lions struggled to manage to do.

*I hope Gatland wasn't coaching Wales when he was attending the other nations training camps as Lions coach.

Is putting 41 points past them struggling? Come on Sin what's your obsession? Everybody knows Great Gats is superior to Kidney and Schmidt put together.

Gatland's Premiership's', Heineken Cup, Grand Slams, NPC, Lions series win, having the nous to drop BOD when nobody else did; that to me says amazing coach.

by slane Sun 08 Sep 2013, 9:40 am

The Saint wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Knowsit17 wrote:
The Saint wrote:Kideny has one win over SA and one over Aus. That's less than a few Sin. I'd be mildly amused to see "a few wins over Aus and SA" on a coaches CV.
Good point come to think of it. One more win than Gatland has (not counting the two Lions wins), hardly a notable point of separation.

Gatland - part of an exclusive group of coaches to have won more than one GS.
Kidney - part of an exclusive group of coaches to have won a GS with Ireland.

If thats the case, having one more grand slam than another is hardly a notable point of separation.

Gatland's 6Ns record / Kidney's 6Ns record
2008 - Grand Slam / -
2009 - 4th / Grand Slam
2010 - 4th / 2nd
2011 - 4th / 3rd
2012 - Grand Slam / 3rd
2013 - Howley* / 5th

Having lost to Australia 7/8 times is a notable separation, however. A Kidney coached Ireland have beaten Australia in the SH when they were playing well - something the Welsh Lions struggled to manage to do.

*I hope Gatland wasn't coaching Wales when he was attending the other nations training camps as Lions coach.
Is putting 41 points past them struggling? Come on Sin what's your obsession? Everybody knows Great Gats is superior to Kidney and Schmidt put together.

Gatland's Premiership's', Heineken Cup, Grand Slams, NPC, Lions series win, having the nous to drop BOD when nobody else did; that to me says amazing coach.

Are you having a laugh? I get the feeling come 6 nations time there's going to be a lot of disappointed Welsh fans (again)

by Sin é Sun 08 Sep 2013, 9:50 am

The Saint wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Knowsit17 wrote:
The Saint wrote:Kideny has one win over SA and one over Aus. That's less than a few Sin. I'd be mildly amused to see "a few wins over Aus and SA" on a coaches CV.
Good point come to think of it. One more win than Gatland has (not counting the two Lions wins), hardly a notable point of separation.

Gatland - part of an exclusive group of coaches to have won more than one GS.
Kidney - part of an exclusive group of coaches to have won a GS with Ireland.

If thats the case, having one more grand slam than another is hardly a notable point of separation.

Gatland's 6Ns record / Kidney's 6Ns record
2008 - Grand Slam / -
2009 - 4th / Grand Slam
2010 - 4th / 2nd
2011 - 4th / 3rd
2012 - Grand Slam / 3rd
2013 - Howley* / 5th

Having lost to Australia 7/8 times is a notable separation, however. A Kidney coached Ireland have beaten Australia in the SH when they were playing well - something the Welsh Lions struggled to manage to do.

*I hope Gatland wasn't coaching Wales when he was attending the other nations training camps as Lions coach.
Is putting 41 points past them struggling? Come on Sin what's your obsession? Everybody knows Great Gats is superior to Kidney and Schmidt put together.

Gatland's Premiership's', Heineken Cup, Grand Slams, NPC, Lions series win, having the nous to drop BOD when nobody else did; that to me says amazing coach.

Australia are struggling. They were not struggling at the world cup when Ireland beat them.

by rainbow-warrior Sun 08 Sep 2013, 12:51 pm

Sin é wrote:
The Saint wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Knowsit17 wrote:
The Saint wrote:Kideny has one win over SA and one over Aus. That's less than a few Sin. I'd be mildly amused to see "a few wins over Aus and SA" on a coaches CV.
Good point come to think of it. One more win than Gatland has (not counting the two Lions wins), hardly a notable point of separation.

Gatland - part of an exclusive group of coaches to have won more than one GS.
Kidney - part of an exclusive group of coaches to have won a GS with Ireland.

If thats the case, having one more grand slam than another is hardly a notable point of separation.

Gatland's 6Ns record / Kidney's 6Ns record
2008 - Grand Slam / -
2009 - 4th / Grand Slam
2010 - 4th / 2nd
2011 - 4th / 3rd
2012 - Grand Slam / 3rd
2013 - Howley* / 5th

Having lost to Australia 7/8 times is a notable separation, however. A Kidney coached Ireland have beaten Australia in the SH when they were playing well - something the Welsh Lions struggled to manage to do.

*I hope Gatland wasn't coaching Wales when he was attending the other nations training camps as Lions coach.
Is putting 41 points past them struggling? Come on Sin what's your obsession? Everybody knows Great Gats is superior to Kidney and Schmidt put together.

Gatland's Premiership's', Heineken Cup, Grand Slams, NPC, Lions series win, having the nous to drop BOD when nobody else did; that to me says amazing coach.
Australia are struggling. They were not struggling at the world cup when Ireland beat them.

They must have been struggling for ireland to beat them.

by rainbow-warrior Sun 08 Sep 2013, 12:54 pm

slane wrote:
The Saint wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Knowsit17 wrote:
The Saint wrote:Kideny has one win over SA and one over Aus. That's less than a few Sin. I'd be mildly amused to see "a few wins over Aus and SA" on a coaches CV.
Good point come to think of it. One more win than Gatland has (not counting the two Lions wins), hardly a notable point of separation.

Gatland - part of an exclusive group of coaches to have won more than one GS.
Kidney - part of an exclusive group of coaches to have won a GS with Ireland.

If thats the case, having one more grand slam than another is hardly a notable point of separation.

Gatland's 6Ns record / Kidney's 6Ns record
2008 - Grand Slam / -
2009 - 4th / Grand Slam
2010 - 4th / 2nd
2011 - 4th / 3rd
2012 - Grand Slam / 3rd
2013 - Howley* / 5th

Having lost to Australia 7/8 times is a notable separation, however. A Kidney coached Ireland have beaten Australia in the SH when they were playing well - something the Welsh Lions struggled to manage to do.

*I hope Gatland wasn't coaching Wales when he was attending the other nations training camps as Lions coach.
Is putting 41 points past them struggling? Come on Sin what's your obsession? Everybody knows Great Gats is superior to Kidney and Schmidt put together.

Gatland's Premiership's', Heineken Cup, Grand Slams, NPC, Lions series win, having the nous to drop BOD when nobody else did; that to me says amazing coach.
Are you having a laugh? I get the feeling come 6 nations time there's going to be a lot of disappointed Welsh fans (again)

Disappointed! How? Back to back 6 Nations......get the feeling you need bed rest:picard:

by slane Sun 08 Sep 2013, 12:56 pm

rainbow-warrior wrote:
Sin é wrote:
The Saint wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Knowsit17 wrote:
The Saint wrote:Kideny has one win over SA and one over Aus. That's less than a few Sin. I'd be mildly amused to see "a few wins over Aus and SA" on a coaches CV.
Good point come to think of it. One more win than Gatland has (not counting the two Lions wins), hardly a notable point of separation.

Gatland - part of an exclusive group of coaches to have won more than one GS.
Kidney - part of an exclusive group of coaches to have won a GS with Ireland.

If thats the case, having one more grand slam than another is hardly a notable point of separation.

Gatland's 6Ns record / Kidney's 6Ns record
2008 - Grand Slam / -
2009 - 4th / Grand Slam
2010 - 4th / 2nd
2011 - 4th / 3rd
2012 - Grand Slam / 3rd
2013 - Howley* / 5th

Having lost to Australia 7/8 times is a notable separation, however. A Kidney coached Ireland have beaten Australia in the SH when they were playing well - something the Welsh Lions struggled to manage to do.

*I hope Gatland wasn't coaching Wales when he was attending the other nations training camps as Lions coach.
Is putting 41 points past them struggling? Come on Sin what's your obsession? Everybody knows Great Gats is superior to Kidney and Schmidt put together.

Gatland's Premiership's', Heineken Cup, Grand Slams, NPC, Lions series win, having the nous to drop BOD when nobody else did; that to me says amazing coach.
Australia are struggling. They were not struggling at the world cup when Ireland beat them.
They must have been struggling for ireland to beat them.

Yet we put 30 points on you lot recently Doh

by slane Sun 08 Sep 2013, 1:04 pm

rainbow-warrior wrote:
slane wrote:
The Saint wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Knowsit17 wrote:
The Saint wrote:Kideny has one win over SA and one over Aus. That's less than a few Sin. I'd be mildly amused to see "a few wins over Aus and SA" on a coaches CV.
Good point come to think of it. One more win than Gatland has (not counting the two Lions wins), hardly a notable point of separation.

Gatland - part of an exclusive group of coaches to have won more than one GS.
Kidney - part of an exclusive group of coaches to have won a GS with Ireland.

If thats the case, having one more grand slam than another is hardly a notable point of separation.

Gatland's 6Ns record / Kidney's 6Ns record
2008 - Grand Slam / -
2009 - 4th / Grand Slam
2010 - 4th / 2nd
2011 - 4th / 3rd
2012 - Grand Slam / 3rd
2013 - Howley* / 5th

Having lost to Australia 7/8 times is a notable separation, however. A Kidney coached Ireland have beaten Australia in the SH when they were playing well - something the Welsh Lions struggled to manage to do.

*I hope Gatland wasn't coaching Wales when he was attending the other nations training camps as Lions coach.
Is putting 41 points past them struggling? Come on Sin what's your obsession? Everybody knows Great Gats is superior to Kidney and Schmidt put together.

Gatland's Premiership's', Heineken Cup, Grand Slams, NPC, Lions series win, having the nous to drop BOD when nobody else did; that to me says amazing coach.
Are you having a laugh? I get the feeling come 6 nations time there's going to be a lot of disappointed Welsh fans (again)
Disappointed! How? Back to back 6 Nations......get the feeling you need bed rest:picard:

Oh lets see where you needed to cheat and use the wrong ball or how about when the ref give you a plenty in the last seconds of play for nothing, even a lot of Welsh fans agree it was the wrong decision.

Watch the two matches your referring to again and tell me do you honestly think without that illegal ball or the ref you would have won? I don't think so, yes the matches were close but if you want to point to a decent Welsh victory over Ireland the RWC match is the only one that comes to mind.

by Guest Sun 08 Sep 2013, 1:09 pm

Funny how you and others choose to conveniently forget an Irish penalty given (and kicked) after the ref missed a blatant O'Driscoll knock on. So in the interests of fairness, the game should've been 12-10 to Wales.

Also a result in a one off game doesn't mean a great deal. Dragons beat Ulster on Friday, but aren't a better team. I think Wales 1st, Ireland 5th tells you all you need to know. Ireland (like Dragons v Ulster) played Wales at the right time, when we were there to be beaten.

by The Saint Sun 08 Sep 2013, 1:17 pm

slane wrote:
Are you having a laugh? I get the feeling come 6 nations time there's going to be a lot of disappointed Welsh fans (again)

What's there to laugh about? Fact isn't funny, just go and check out the Great Gats CV thread that I did. If Ireland finish 5th again in the 6 Nations are you going to be one of the posters who mysteriously vanishes after months of giving out the chit-chat? Smile

by slane Sun 08 Sep 2013, 4:42 pm

The Saint wrote:
slane wrote:
Are you having a laugh? I get the feeling come 6 nations time there's going to be a lot of disappointed Welsh fans (again)
What's there to laugh about? Fact isn't funny, just go and check out the Great Gats CV thread that I did. If Ireland finish 5th again in the 6 Nations are you going to be one of the posters who mysteriously vanishes after months of giving out the chit-chat?

Seen that, and no Ireland wont finish 5th again, actually what happened in this years 6 nations was a god sent because it allowed us to get rid of Kidney. I know Ireland is not Leinster but as a whole the Ireland coach has better players at his disposal from all of the provinces. Watching Leinster become the best club team in Europe over the last few seasons has convinced me that Schmidt will bring us on to a different level.

And no I wont be vanishing, I'll be the first to put my hands up when Ireland lose and get it wrong on the day.

by The Saint Sun 08 Sep 2013, 5:14 pm

Same here Slane, Ireland beat us fair and square last time, there's no denying that. I'm not as convinced with Schmidt as Ireland head coach as some, though there was no doubting he is the ideal candidate after his success with Leinster.

by Knowsit17 Sun 08 Sep 2013, 5:41 pm

slane wrote:
rainbow-warrior wrote:
slane wrote:
The Saint wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Knowsit17 wrote:
The Saint wrote:Kideny has one win over SA and one over Aus. That's less than a few Sin. I'd be mildly amused to see "a few wins over Aus and SA" on a coaches CV.
Good point come to think of it. One more win than Gatland has (not counting the two Lions wins), hardly a notable point of separation.

Gatland - part of an exclusive group of coaches to have won more than one GS.
Kidney - part of an exclusive group of coaches to have won a GS with Ireland.

If thats the case, having one more grand slam than another is hardly a notable point of separation.

Gatland's 6Ns record / Kidney's 6Ns record
2008 - Grand Slam / -
2009 - 4th / Grand Slam
2010 - 4th / 2nd
2011 - 4th / 3rd
2012 - Grand Slam / 3rd
2013 - Howley* / 5th

Having lost to Australia 7/8 times is a notable separation, however. A Kidney coached Ireland have beaten Australia in the SH when they were playing well - something the Welsh Lions struggled to manage to do.

*I hope Gatland wasn't coaching Wales when he was attending the other nations training camps as Lions coach.
Is putting 41 points past them struggling? Come on Sin what's your obsession? Everybody knows Great Gats is superior to Kidney and Schmidt put together.

Gatland's Premiership's', Heineken Cup, Grand Slams, NPC, Lions series win, having the nous to drop BOD when nobody else did; that to me says amazing coach.
Are you having a laugh? I get the feeling come 6 nations time there's going to be a lot of disappointed Welsh fans (again)
Disappointed! How? Back to back 6 Nations......get the feeling you need bed rest:picard:
Oh lets see where you needed to cheat and use the wrong ball or how about when the ref give you a plenty in the last seconds of play for nothing, even a lot of Welsh fans agree it was the wrong decision.

Watch the two matches your referring to again and tell me do you honestly think without that illegal ball or the ref you would have won? I don't think so, yes the matches were close but if you want to point to a decent Welsh victory over Ireland the RWC match is the only one that comes to mind.

You must be desperate citing the 'wrong ball' incident which was two and a half years ago and not a part of the two recent championships. Anyways if you need someone to throw your toys at I'd suggest the assistant ref, he's the one who got the call wrong after all.

Tbh I'm not half bothered about the Ferris penalty, Wales were the better team that game and the win was deserved. They scored more tries with less men and generally looked the far more dangerous side throughout. Two games running Wales outclassed and physically dominated Ireland with only an anomaly of a first half preventing it being four on the trot Smile

by Norfolklass Sun 08 Sep 2013, 7:44 pm

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
IronMike wrote:The interview just proves that BOD thinks he is better than the team, totally against what Rugby and the Lions is about.
I agree with this comment too.

However, the problem I have with the selections for that 3rd test are the same problems I had throughout the whole tour. Gatland let his personal favourites and his knowledge and comfort of the Welsh based players affect his judgement. BOD knows this, as does anyone who isn't Welsh. Even a lot of the Welsh contingent know the truth of the matter. Gatland defaulted to what he knows. I can't say truthfully I wouldn't be biased in his position, however it was Gatland's responsibility to not let his familiarity with players influence his judgement. He failed in that regard. He did win the test and ultimately was successful in his goals. Mistakes were made though.

I'll list examples and will be happy to elaborate if it causes problems.

1. Warburton as captain, when he was dropped as captain of Wales.
2. Lydiate travelling despite Gatland saying the 6N was the place to prove yourselves. Kelly Brown, Robshaw, Wood, Ryan Jones and others proved themselves time and time again and were ignored.
3. Dropping BOD for the last test and selecting Roberts for the last test when neither merited being dropped or included respectively.
4. Dropping Cuthbert after the 1st test for Bowe who had been injured and lacking match practice.
5a. Bringing Hogg, the youngest guy on the tour as utility cover when he isn't a utility back.
5b. Bringing Kearney who wasn't fit and not letting Hogg challenge Halfpenny for the fullback slot by playing him out of position.
6. Bringing Shane Williams into the squad at all whilst guys like Visser, Liam Williams, Foden, Brown, Goode et al were all left at home.
7. Not giving Ryan Grant a shot in the 2nd test whilst Vinapola was destroyed.

I could go on but I won't. Gatland got some aspects of the Lions but I think making the head coach a current incumbent coach of one of the 4 nations is a mistake. A mistake that looks likely to be repeated in 4 years’ time. Certainly if the head coach is Gatland he would do well to include coaches from all the home nations so each country has a coach that can advise him and perhaps make a better case for some of the player who were ignored in this tour. Zebo, Hogg, Gray and Grant to name some of those who could have played an important role in the tests but were never given the opportunity.

You make ridiculous and childish assumptions about Gatland's motivation. Gatland for me is a man of honour, a man of principle. He selected his teams on merit. Your allegations make you look foolish. Is he capable of making mistakes? Of course. Did he make mistakes? Yes. Did he win the series? Yes.
The truth is you can't enjoy the Lions Victory. It doesn't feel Irish enough. I pity you

by bedfordwelsh Sun 08 Sep 2013, 7:59 pm

When faced with a choice between two players of similar style, fitness levels etc etc a coach will 99% of the time go with what he knows like Gatland did.

This time it worked out well in 05 SCW went with what he knew over other and it went horribly wrong.

by Knowsit17 Sun 08 Sep 2013, 8:23 pm

Norfolklass wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
IronMike wrote:The interview just proves that BOD thinks he is better than the team, totally against what Rugby and the Lions is about.
I agree with this comment too.

However, the problem I have with the selections for that 3rd test are the same problems I had throughout the whole tour. Gatland let his personal favourites and his knowledge and comfort of the Welsh based players affect his judgement. BOD knows this, as does anyone who isn't Welsh. Even a lot of the Welsh contingent know the truth of the matter. Gatland defaulted to what he knows. I can't say truthfully I wouldn't be biased in his position, however it was Gatland's responsibility to not let his familiarity with players influence his judgement. He failed in that regard. He did win the test and ultimately was successful in his goals. Mistakes were made though.

I'll list examples and will be happy to elaborate if it causes problems.

1. Warburton as captain, when he was dropped as captain of Wales.
2. Lydiate travelling despite Gatland saying the 6N was the place to prove yourselves. Kelly Brown, Robshaw, Wood, Ryan Jones and others proved themselves time and time again and were ignored.
3. Dropping BOD for the last test and selecting Roberts for the last test when neither merited being dropped or included respectively.
4. Dropping Cuthbert after the 1st test for Bowe who had been injured and lacking match practice.
5a. Bringing Hogg, the youngest guy on the tour as utility cover when he isn't a utility back.
5b. Bringing Kearney who wasn't fit and not letting Hogg challenge Halfpenny for the fullback slot by playing him out of position.
6. Bringing Shane Williams into the squad at all whilst guys like Visser, Liam Williams, Foden, Brown, Goode et al were all left at home.
7. Not giving Ryan Grant a shot in the 2nd test whilst Vinapola was destroyed.

I could go on but I won't. Gatland got some aspects of the Lions but I think making the head coach a current incumbent coach of one of the 4 nations is a mistake. A mistake that looks likely to be repeated in 4 years’ time. Certainly if the head coach is Gatland he would do well to include coaches from all the home nations so each country has a coach that can advise him and perhaps make a better case for some of the player who were ignored in this tour. Zebo, Hogg, Gray and Grant to name some of those who could have played an important role in the tests but were never given the opportunity.
You make ridiculous and childish assumptions about Gatland's motivation. Gatland for me is a man of honour, a man of principle. He selected his teams on merit. Your allegations make you look foolish. Is he capable of making mistakes? Of course. Did he make mistakes? Yes. Did he win the series? Yes.
The truth is you can't enjoy the Lions Victory. It doesn't feel Irish enough. I pity you

Pretty sure Radge is Scottish. But this does raise the issue of whether it is realistically possible to have a tour that ticks both boxes, being successful and in line with the Lions "ethos", that which people cite as being as diverse and inclusive among the four participant nations as possible.

While I feel the latter point has mainly been quoted by detractors looking for any excuse to slate Gatland, it's worth noting that both ideas don't easily go hand in hand. Picking for the sake of inclusiveness will almost always defy form in some way. You can't really pick on form without at least edging one representative slightly ahead of the others in terms of inclusion. That is, unless you're lucky enough that at the time in question picking on form corresponds with equal representation, say if you were justifiably able to pick 4 Welsh, 4 Irish, 4 English and 3 Scottish based on form. This was certainly not the case this year and hasn't been in a while by my recollection.

End point being that it would appear that, for most Lions tours there are two options: a)select evenly for the sake of tradition or fairness and probably lose due to lack of cohesion or experience playing together or b)select unevenly and be in with an improved chance of winning as was the case this year. Like I said at the start you'd be lucky if you could achieve both at once.

by Luckless Pedestrian Mon 09 Sep 2013, 7:57 am

Knowsit17 wrote:For most Lions tours there are two options: a)select evenly for the sake of tradition or fairness and probably lose due to lack of cohesion or experience playing together or b)select unevenly and be in with an improved chance of winning as was the case this year. Like I said at the start you'd be lucky if you could achieve both at once.

I doubt it's ever been Lions policy to try and select as even a squad / match XV to include all four nations. If there have been tours where all four nations had a more or less equal number of tourists, then it would have been down to the fact that the playing talent was spread evenly, not because of some weird positive discrimination.

by slane Mon 09 Sep 2013, 9:37 am

Norfolklass wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
IronMike wrote:The interview just proves that BOD thinks he is better than the team, totally against what Rugby and the Lions is about.
I agree with this comment too.

However, the problem I have with the selections for that 3rd test are the same problems I had throughout the whole tour. Gatland let his personal favourites and his knowledge and comfort of the Welsh based players affect his judgement. BOD knows this, as does anyone who isn't Welsh. Even a lot of the Welsh contingent know the truth of the matter. Gatland defaulted to what he knows. I can't say truthfully I wouldn't be biased in his position, however it was Gatland's responsibility to not let his familiarity with players influence his judgement. He failed in that regard. He did win the test and ultimately was successful in his goals. Mistakes were made though.

I'll list examples and will be happy to elaborate if it causes problems.

1. Warburton as captain, when he was dropped as captain of Wales.
2. Lydiate travelling despite Gatland saying the 6N was the place to prove yourselves. Kelly Brown, Robshaw, Wood, Ryan Jones and others proved themselves time and time again and were ignored.
3. Dropping BOD for the last test and selecting Roberts for the last test when neither merited being dropped or included respectively.
4. Dropping Cuthbert after the 1st test for Bowe who had been injured and lacking match practice.
5a. Bringing Hogg, the youngest guy on the tour as utility cover when he isn't a utility back.
5b. Bringing Kearney who wasn't fit and not letting Hogg challenge Halfpenny for the fullback slot by playing him out of position.
6. Bringing Shane Williams into the squad at all whilst guys like Visser, Liam Williams, Foden, Brown, Goode et al were all left at home.
7. Not giving Ryan Grant a shot in the 2nd test whilst Vinapola was destroyed.

I could go on but I won't. Gatland got some aspects of the Lions but I think making the head coach a current incumbent coach of one of the 4 nations is a mistake. A mistake that looks likely to be repeated in 4 years’ time. Certainly if the head coach is Gatland he would do well to include coaches from all the home nations so each country has a coach that can advise him and perhaps make a better case for some of the player who were ignored in this tour. Zebo, Hogg, Gray and Grant to name some of those who could have played an important role in the tests but were never given the opportunity.
You make ridiculous and childish assumptions about Gatland's motivation. Gatland for me is a man of honour, a man of principle. He selected his teams on merit. Your allegations make you look foolish. Is he capable of making mistakes? Of course. Did he make mistakes? Yes. Did he win the series? Yes.
The truth is you can't enjoy the Lions Victory. It doesn't feel Irish enough. I pity you

Rugger makes some good points here, from my own Perspective watching this year’s tour was like watching a test where most of the decisions went to one team with the other team getting the odd decision. Even though we won I think a large portion of the England, Irish and Scottish (esp) fans felt this way.

The great thing about the Lions is that it gives 4 nations the chance to come together and bring their own unique qualities to the table.

Your argument for the inform players playing is accurate but at the same time I think we need to find a balance, forgetting the BOD fiasco, how could the Scots get behind a team where their sole representation was sitting on the bench? I am sure Gatland could have made room for Gray and SH in the last test but he chose not too and reverted to type, hence the outburst from the media, players and fans.

Would you be defending Gatland if he were not the Wales coach or if 10+ Welsh men had not been involved? I don’t think so.

by Luckless Pedestrian Mon 09 Sep 2013, 9:56 am

Slane, the first Lions tour I watched was the 1989 tour of Australia. As far as I can recall, there were only three or four Welshmen involved in the Test series, but I wasn't watching the tour for the Welsh players, I was watching to see the Lions play, and wanting the Lions to win. My support of the Lions has never depended on how many Welshmen are touring / starting.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 09 Sep 2013, 9:59 am

Stephen Jones in the Times fully backed Gatland and his decisions. From this surely we can all agree Gatland must have done something terribly wrong?

by fa0019 Mon 09 Sep 2013, 10:08 am

In the end his job was to win the lions tour. In that he should and will be deemed a success.

In 100 years time and the history books are all that remains of this tour, this whole issue will be a mere footnote in Lions history and Gatland will be seen as only the 4th coach in modern rugby history to have won a series in the 3N.

Everyone thought it was a mistake. I can't think of anyone bar Davies dad who actually backed him... yet he delivered and thats all that counts. Thats why he's paid the salary he receives and that's why the rest of us are mere one-eyed fans/pundits.

by aucklandlaurie Mon 09 Sep 2013, 10:10 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Stephen Jones in the Times fully backed Gatland and his decisions. From this surely we can all agree Gatland must have done something terribly wrong?

Well thats gone and ruined it.

by Sin é Mon 09 Sep 2013, 10:19 am

As Paul O'Connell said in an interview on radio last week - ''Ivan (54 year old radio interviewer), the Lions would have won if you were playing in the centre.''

The pack (& Corbs) were the difference in the final Test, not Jamie Roberts or Jonathan Davies.

fa0019
The Lions are meant to be a blend of the best players from the 4 rugby nations. Blending a team of the best and inform players* from the 4 nations to win a series is the challenge for the coaching staff.

Gatland failed to blend the team from the 4 nations and reverted to what they knew best.

*Some players just didn't get a look in.

by fa0019 Mon 09 Sep 2013, 10:25 am

Sin e

Surely it should be the best of the 4 countries.... not the best of a represenative of the 4 countries i.e. 3 from each nation and then 3 coaches picks.

This is sport, professional sport. Ideas like that remind me of the old WW1 stories where POW british officers in German prison camps were allowed home to visit sick relatives on the condition they returned to their POW camp (with only their word as a British officer as bond).... An honourable idea but one best left to the history books.

by Sin é Mon 09 Sep 2013, 10:29 am

Norfolklass wrote:
You make ridiculous and childish assumptions about Gatland's motivation. Gatland for me is a man of honour, a man of principle. He selected his teams on merit. Your allegations make you look foolish. Is he capable of making mistakes? Of course. Did he make mistakes? Yes. Did he win the series? Yes.
The truth is you can't enjoy the Lions Victory. It doesn't feel Irish enough. I pity you

Why did he select an injured Manu Tualagi then for the 3rd Test when there were other options. It seems he still isn't fit to play for Leicester (nor is Youngs).

by Luckless Pedestrian Mon 09 Sep 2013, 10:33 am

fa0019 wrote:Sin e

Surely it should be the best of the 4 countries.... not the best of a represenative of the 4 countries i.e. 3 from each nation and then 3 coaches picks.

Exactly. The 1989 Lions Test side was largely English and Scottish because those countries happened to have the best players at the time.

by Portnoy's Complaint Mon 09 Sep 2013, 10:35 am

Geoffrey Boycott would have sacked his mum for not leading the Lions to a 3-0 victory this summer.

Just as any E, W or I team manager should go if any of them lose to this ailing side this autumn.

by Sin é Mon 09 Sep 2013, 10:35 am

fa0019 wrote:Sin e

Surely it should be the best of the 4 countries.... not the best of a represenative of the 4 countries i.e. 3 from each nation and then 3 coaches picks.

This is sport, professional sport. Ideas like that remind me of the old WW1 stories where POW british officers in German prison camps were allowed home to visit sick relatives on the condition they returned to their POW camp (with only their word as a British officer as bond).... An honourable idea but one best left to the history books.

Don't try and tell me that Davies is a better centre than Manu Tualagi, or that Mike Phillips is a better scrumhalf than Conor Murray. We have no idea if Stuart Hogg would have been better than Leigh Halfpenny (and he wouldn't have been needed if anyone other than Halfpenny was allowed to take the kicks). Simon Zebo is a much better winger than Cutbert, but he wasn't selected for the 1st Test. God only knows why an injured Tommy Bowe was used!

by Sin é Mon 09 Sep 2013, 10:41 am

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
fa0019 wrote:Sin e

Surely it should be the best of the 4 countries.... not the best of a represenative of the 4 countries i.e. 3 from each nation and then 3 coaches picks.
Exactly. The 1989 Lions Test side was largely English and Scottish because those countries happened to have the best players at the time.

Thats the problem with the selections - Wales doesn't have all the best players. If they had, I don't think anyone would have minded too much.

by Comfort Mon 09 Sep 2013, 10:43 am

Sin é wrote:As Paul O'Connell said in an interview on radio last week - ''Ivan (54 year old radio interviewer), the Lions would have won if you were playing in the centre.''

The pack (& Corbs) were the difference in the final Test, not Jamie Roberts or Jonathan Davies.

fa0019
The Lions are meant to be a blend of the best players from the 4 rugby nations. Blending a team of the best and inform players* from the 4 nations to win a series is the challenge for the coaching staff.

Gatland failed to blend the team from the 4 nations and reverted to what they knew best.

*Some players just didn't get a look in.

Boom, should have left it there.

"The difference makers:

Corbs back at 1.
Hibbard over T Youngs
AWJ as captain (very understated aspect of the game, his leadership was huge)
SOB at 7
Faletau over Heaslip
Halfpenny (its seemingly easy to forget that for all the forward dominance the 2 tries that set us going were from Halfpenny counter attacks from deep, nothing else).

*the only players who imo didnt get a look in when they should have is Tipuric & Ryan Grant imo.

I cant believe this is still going on, anyone comparing Kidney and Gatland needs themselves tested. Laugh

by fa0019 Mon 09 Sep 2013, 10:45 am

Sin é

I don't disagree with you at all. But crucially Tuilagi was coming back from injury and even when playing for England he would have only got 30mins max in a come back game.
As for Phillips, he suits Gatlands style. Every coach has a method... it hamper all players and only the very best who can adapt to any environment.

Fitness is one area I think we often overlook. Its not like when one of the respected home nations sides tours a country and plays 3 tests... because they all play in 3-4 games prior to this also.

Thats why even when winning Gatland was shifting his side around.

In these tours there will always be winners, always be losers... to all Gatland's worth he dropped Cuthbert when he was playing well and suited his play down to the ground. He was ruthless but without which perhaps we wouldn't have won the series... the only real objective.

by bedfordwelsh Mon 09 Sep 2013, 10:48 am

Davies was the best or most consistent centre on tour and in theory BOD got dropped for Roberts as Davies was already the incumbent from the 2nd test.

None of the combinations tried really set tour alight and in the end he went with what he knew and most coaches would have.

This time it worked in 05 it didn't who knows what will happen come 2017

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