Ireland's November Series and Beyond...

First topic message reminder :

Right boys, I want you give realistic guess of how Ireland will do in the November tests. I want you to separate your hearts from your heads. How do you predict Ireland will do and how will this set them up for the Six nations based on your poll prediction for the Autumn tests.

Do you believe in Schmidt? Do you believe he is the catalyst for consistent success or will we yet again disappoint by firing hot and cold like recent championships have dictated. Is there cause for quite confidence or should we be holding are cards close to our chest.

Feel free to throw out your wildest aspirations on the table or to throw caution to the wind.

The rest is up to you....


Sat 9th Ireland vs Samoa - Autumn
Sat 16th Ireland vs Australia - Autumn
Sun 24th Ireland vs New Zealand

SecretFly wrote:

rodders wrote:Fly -

We have never gone beyond the QF stage of a RWC and have a solitary GS/6N title in this period. If you think that constitutes punching above our weight then I don't know what Wales and the pumas have been doing - nor the French who we are told flog their players and also employ many intl players from other nations.... hell the perennially injured Jonny Wilkinson revived his career there..

In terms of Leinster and the provinces - well that is a totally separate debate.

It is and we have been punching above our weight, Rodders.  That's the very point.  Where did we come from?  Where you've come from dictates how much you're punching above your weight.

We came from pre-Professionalism.  That's what we emerged out of.  And what was Ireland pre-professionalism?  Not just the 90s.  Our 'history' against our neighbours is a lot longer than the 90s.  You mention Wales as if we had a right to be outplaying them through the last 13 years or so.  Where would that opinion come from?  Certanly not our history against Wales in the preceding decades.

We are hitting above our weight... all through the last decade was hitting above our weight.  It might not have been as successful as you or I wanted, but what right had we to expect anything else?  The Six Nations emerges and all of a sudden we're expecting ourselves to take Slam after Slam in the first decade of professionalism?  We had nothing to base such expectations on.  

No, we got to third in the World Rankings (higher than Wales has got since the rankings were created.)  We have third highest win ratio in the 6N - just two games off France and England.  Our provinces have five of the last 8 HCs - three of our four Provinces have won it.

Our problem is that we think we've been around for ever at this Professionalism lark.  No, it's only a baby - and Ireland has done pretty okay considering what it came from.  Consolidating the real and quick advances we've made since professionalism, and forging ahead into a longer term view, is what IRFU should now be planning for.  No they're not doing everything right - of course the plans need honing all the time as you learn what is going good and learn what could be improved.

But I hope most of us believe we can do all that here - at home - instead of begging our International players off big European rubgy bases into the future... or worse still, chasing down Irish grannys in foreign fields.

Wow...best synopsis of the last 15 years I have ever seen....(hate to say it though  )

rodders wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:
Do you not think its best to have our elite players in Ireland and the fringe ones plying their trade elsewhere?

I'm going to say yes ...... but not necessarily. If an individual player feels unhappy or that he needs another challenge elsewhere then its better for all parties if he leaves.

Also being too insular is not good and if all our players were based here then that wouldn't be good for the team either. That experience of other leagues and cultures is good to have in the camp.

Sure. but I think another province should be the first option. Oddly, it seems and you may disagree there is less traffic to and from Ulster to/from other provinces than trafic between other provinces. Faloon, O'Connor, Boss are a few who have gone elsewhere in Ireland that I can think of but it doesnt happen too much. It seems they are more likely to go abroad: Wilson, Humphries, Bowe, Steenson, Andress etc.

ME-109 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

rodders wrote:Fly -

We have never gone beyond the QF stage of a RWC and have a solitary GS/6N title in this period. If you think that constitutes punching above our weight then I don't know what Wales and the pumas have been doing - nor the French who we are told flog their players and also employ many intl players from other nations.... hell the perennially injured Jonny Wilkinson revived his career there..

In terms of Leinster and the provinces - well that is a totally separate debate.

It is and we have been punching above our weight, Rodders.  That's the very point.  Where did we come from?  Where you've come from dictates how much you're punching above your weight.

We came from pre-Professionalism.  That's what we emerged out of.  And what was Ireland pre-professionalism?  Not just the 90s.  Our 'history' against our neighbours is a lot longer than the 90s.  You mention Wales as if we had a right to be outplaying them through the last 13 years or so.  Where would that opinion come from?  Certanly not our history against Wales in the preceding decades.

We are hitting above our weight... all through the last decade was hitting above our weight.  It might not have been as successful as you or I wanted, but what right had we to expect anything else?  The Six Nations emerges and all of a sudden we're expecting ourselves to take Slam after Slam in the first decade of professionalism?  We had nothing to base such expectations on.  

No, we got to third in the World Rankings (higher than Wales has got since the rankings were created.)  We have third highest win ratio in the 6N - just two games off France and England.  Our provinces have five of the last 8 HCs - three of our four Provinces have won it.

Our problem is that we think we've been around for ever at this Professionalism lark.  No, it's only a baby - and Ireland has done pretty okay considering what it came from.  Consolidating the real and quick advances we've made since professionalism, and forging ahead into a longer term view, is what IRFU should now be planning for.  No they're not doing everything right - of course the plans need honing all the time as you learn what is going good and learn what could be improved.

But I hope most of us believe we can do all that here - at home - instead of begging our International players off big European rubgy bases into the future... or worse still, chasing down Irish grannys in foreign fields.

Wow...best synopsis of the last 15 years I have ever seen....(hate to say it though  )

I'm honoured that the compliment comes from you of all people, ME

Fly I don't agree that is just - and I don't mean this as a personal jibe as in just you - typical Irish excuses for underperformance.

No one has a right to success - not us, not the ABs. Its earned on and off the field and it is not defined by history or the past.

All of us entered in to professionalism together - at the same time... ok the ABs were cheating but that's another point ....

It doesn't matter what happened in the 80's - we had a good period from 2001 onwards - but we can't say from this perspective today whether this was because of repeatable measures we have in this country or whether it was down to circumstantial one's - time will tell us this but we are only into our second or third generation of professional player.

We have to be flexible, open minded and adaptable - not dogmatic and insular. Have confidence in our domestic systems but not be afraid to acknowledge our short falls and change them as the requirements of the game change and evolve.

We don't know what the impact of having large numbers of players moving abroad will have because we haven't experienced it in the pro era but looking at other countries its the net importers who are suffering more than the net exporters.

GunsGerms wrote:

rodders wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:
Do you not think its best to have our elite players in Ireland and the fringe ones plying their trade elsewhere?

I'm going to say yes ...... but not necessarily. If an individual player feels unhappy or that he needs another challenge elsewhere then its better for all parties if he leaves.

Also being too insular is not good and if all our players were based here then that wouldn't be good for the team either. That experience of other leagues and cultures is good to have in the camp.

Sure. but I think another province should be the first option. Oddly, it seems and you may disagree there is less traffic to and from Ulster to/from other provinces than trafic between other provinces. Faloon, O'Connor, Boss are a few who have gone elsewhere in Ireland that I can think of but it doesnt happen too much. It seems they are more likely to go abroad: Wilson, Humphries, Bowe, Steenson, Andress etc.

O'Donoghue, Anderson, McCrea. McComish all left to go to another province (McComish came back). But you're right, a lot - most - go abroad. And some good players too (in recent years, Seymour and Whitten).

However, we've had much, much fewer that come to us from other provinces. Jerry Cronin and Cillian Willis are the only ones I can think of, and they left three/fours seasons ago. Although we've Dave Shanahan and Alan O'Connor in the academy now.

In other Sin-related news, I see Munster have not trusted Hanrahan to start versus the Ospreys.

Don Alfonso wrote:In other Sin-related news, I see Munster have not trusted Hanrahan to start versus the Ospreys.

The IRFU have enforced their authority and Penney was directed to give him a rest. He's slotted in as possible 10 against the All Blacks

Don Alfonso wrote:O'Donoghue, Anderson, McCrea. McComish all left to go to another province (McComish came back). But you're right, a lot - most - go abroad. And some good players too (in recent years, Seymour and Whitten).

However, we've had much, much fewer that come to us from other provinces. Jerry Cronin and Cillian Willis are the only ones I can think of, and they left three/fours seasons ago. Although we've Dave Shanahan and Alan O'Connor in the academy now.

 Forgot about Whitten. Do you know how he is getting on? Agreed there are less players into Ulster from other provinces. Why is that?

SecretFly wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:In other Sin-related news, I see Munster have not trusted Hanrahan to start versus the Ospreys.

The IRFU have enforced their authority and Penney was directed to give him a rest.  He's slotted in as possible 10 against the All Blacks

Nah..thats not the reason. He doesn't have a dedicated baby sitter like PJ so isn't allowed out on his own.

rodders wrote:Fly I don't agree that is just - and I don't mean this as a personal jibe as in just you - typical Irish excuses for underperformance.

No one has a right to success - not us, not the ABs. Its earned on and off the field and it is not defined by history or the past.

All of us entered in to professionalism together - at the same time... ok the ABs were cheating but that's another point ....

It doesn't matter what happened in the 80's - we had a good period from 2001 onwards - but we can't say from this perspective today whether this was because of repeatable measures we have in this country or whether it was down to circumstantial one's - time will tell us this but we are only into our second or third generation of professional player.

We have to be flexible, open minded and adaptable - not dogmatic and insular. Have confidence in our domestic systems but not be afraid to acknowledge our short falls and change them as the requirements of the game change and evolve.

We don't know what the impact of having large numbers of players moving abroad will have because we haven't experienced it in the pro era but looking at other countries its the net importers who are suffering more than the net exporters.

I'm not taking any of it personally, Rodders (I think we know each other well enough by now) ..as I was kinda hoping you wouldn't take any of my pronouncements personally either.  Just debating, that's all.

But it's just that you see the last decade as a wasted opportunity (your right to think so, and yep, there is circumstantial evidence!).  I, however, see it as a decade that will slide off into memory and has the potential now to be part of a greater story about the emergence of Irish rugby.
Maybe it is just me, I accept that.  I've always seen time slide by quickly - I don't feel time for some bloody reason, that I hate!!!  Or rather, I experience it (aging!!!) but don't sense it.  I see longer pictures because of it...and I'm telling you, when you truncate these next few decades into history, the first one has the potential to be glorified as a a very good beginning.  

It also has the potential to be regarded as our high-point!!! - a level of relative success we never achieved again!  Yep, there is potential in that scenario too - unfortunately

That's the one I fear - especially if we give ground to the PRL/LNR idea of unconstrained big money European rugby controlled by central European clubs.  

Of course, that'll be good for them.  Of course too, it might be very good for a select few future great Irish players.  But I can't envisage it being good for home based Irish rugby.  I just don't see that ever being the result, Rodders.  Neither do I see us winning a future WC with a select 15 dragged from two, three or four leagues and 10 or 11 clubs. (Irish players will never be a major force in any foreign clubs)

Time may prove me wrong - that I admit to ... but I very much hope it doesn't as it'll still mean Irish home based rugby is dead.

SecretFly wrote:
But it's just that you see the last decade as a wasted opportunity (your right to think so, and yep, there is circumstantial evidence!).  

But I don't -  I see it as decade of unprecedented success, but within that there were wasted opportunities to achieve more than we did ...coulda woulda shoulda never pays the bills though...

However what does matter is that the lessons of that period are learnt and built on for future generations - where did the good players come from? Which positions were we strong and weak? Why did we do better against some teams than others? What went wrong in 07 ...and 11. What went right in 09?

What I don't want is the same approach to rugby as Ireland had with the Celtic tiger economy - i.e. if it appears to work don't ask any questions for fear of rocking the boat sort of mentality.... if it ain't broke don't fix it... just enjoy the ride until it crashes or someone loses an eye..

In terms of Sexton - well I have seen his game evolve already, he's become more measured and patient - kicking more and looking more comfortable with it. Back home we've seen Jackson, JJ, Keatley, Madigan (ok ignore the Jimmy thing) step forward in his absence. Is this bad for Irish rugby? It's too early to say is my point.

Do I want to see other players move - no ...again but .... if a player is unhappy at their province then he isn't much good either  -  a player who's enjoying their rugby in France or England is better use than one who isn't here.

If we do have faith in the system then there's nothing to fear as the replacements will soon come through - otherwise paradoxically if the system is poor and the cupboard is bare then perhaps we shouldn't wish our finest talents to endure it anyway ....

Sexton is one player.  Yes, none of us are unreasonable to the extent that we'd suggest it a tragedy that even one player left our shores for Europe.  Not the case and not really the argument.  

One, two or three Irish Internationals playing their club rugby abroad is manageable.  But in an encroaching era of massive salaries in Europe (McCafferty's next development goal I'm certain will be the ending of caps - salaries rising into the millions), the inducement will be for more of them not few of them to go.

You see, it doesn't matter how good a Provincial player might be in the absence of a better one who has moved abroad (even Madigan with Jimmy htching a ride on his back! ) - the point is that if the Provincial player is proving worth at Provincial (Jackson, JJ etc) he's unlikely to be a Provinical for too long himself.  He'll become another absentee... as he and his agent will follow the money carrots too....just like they do in football.......

............ to the second and third divisions if you're Irish, BTW!
(Irish rugby players take note that in the new Europe they won't necessarily be 'talented' enough for the main Leagues, but they possibly will be talented enough to be high paid journeymen in lesser leagues)

Anyway, when the best player goes - and the next best to him goes - the next in line is then promoted to Provincial.  But now he isn't just an understudy, he's an understudy of an understudy.  
Natural slide off takes place in experience and therefore too in results, all across the field.  And again I say, if Irish players drift away in sufficient numbers, if it becomes the norm rather than something manageable, then the coaching panels follow them.  A vicious cycle ensues if we don't carefully manage any systematic player-drain.

Hmm don't you think you are looking at the worst case fly - the disaster model ...

Because no matter the salaries in France there will always be pros to remaining in Ireland and playing for your, or another province (I won't list them).

And those players are still available to the international team - look at how many Boks are in Europe - your own Kirchener being the latest. Probably a 3rd of the Welsh team are now in France and they haven't imploded - in fact the regions are getting stronger.

Don't mistake what I am saying though - I want to retain players - but we must be realistic and roll with the punches - Ireland can't operate in an international vacuum. Some players will stay and some will go - its up to the national coaches to pick from all available resources home and abroad. No player is bigger than the team though, everyone is replaceable.

rodders wrote:Hmm don't you think you are looking at the worst case fly - the disaster model ...

Because no matter the salaries in France there will always be pros to remaining in Ireland and playing for your, or another province (I won't list them).

And those players are still available to the international team - look at how many Boks are in Europe - your own Kirchener being the latest. Probably a 3rd of the Welsh team are now in France and they haven't imploded - in fact the regions are getting stronger.

Don't mistake what I am saying though - I want to retain players - but we must be realistic and roll with the punches - Ireland can't operate in an international vacuum. Some players will stay and some will go - its up to the national coaches to pick from all available resources home and abroad. No player is bigger than the team though, everyone is replaceable.

The Welsh team is maybe even stronger because the regions have to keep bringing players through, the only problem is the lack of availability of some of the Welsh based internationals who don't play a lot of Pro12

Exactly marty ....what you gain on the swings and all that....

rodders wrote:Hmm don't you think you are looking at the worst case fly - the disaster model ...

Because no matter the salaries in France there will always be pros to remaining in Ireland and playing for your, or another province (I won't list them).

And those players are still available to the international team - look at how many Boks are in Europe - your own Kirchener being the latest. Probably a 3rd of the Welsh team are now in France and they haven't imploded - in fact the regions are getting stronger.

Don't mistake what I am saying though - I want to retain players - but we must be realistic and roll with the punches - Ireland can't operate in an international vacuum. Some players will stay and some will go - its up to the national coaches to pick from all available resources home and abroad. No player is bigger than the team though, everyone is replaceable.

No Rodders... not feeling blue.  Specifically using worse-case scenarios to frame an acknowledgement of the issues that could arise from our newly developing European rugby framework.
If you don't project a worst case scenario, you won't plan for a best case one - as you won't envisage the need for one...until it's too late!  

No, I'm not being a misery guts.  I'm not saying what will happen.  I'm saying it's certainly a possibility that it could happen if Ireland (IRFU) give too much to the muscle-flexing super-Leagues or let their concentration slide when reading the small print contracts...  yeah, Irish rugby will slide if we take our eye off the ball of what we all allegedly want for it.  And that's more success, not less..

About a third of the Welsh team (really that much?? ) ... a third of the Welsh team are in France and England NOW... that's the defining point about that, Rodders.  

NOW - not as they were making a name for themselves at International - now as Europe and France in particular begins to make the big money influence spread and after Welsh players have already made a name for themselves.  We'll see where Wales goes from here when the spread takes effect over a few seasons, and that understudy of an understudy issue might raise its head.

And please let's not mention SA and Ireland in the one breath....

BTW... I'm talking about all Provinces here.  And I will mention them - Leinster, Ulster, Munster and Connacht.  Why do I get the impression you felt I was only concerned with one of them??

Not many of the Wales guys abroad are actually playing better now than when in Wales though IMO. Possibly North.

All the below have got worse:
Byrne
Philips
Jenkins
Henson
Hook


not sure how Lydiate and Roberts are progressing but cant imagine Racing Metro will improve their careers much.

I'm noticing the trend on his survey is creeping more and more to 1 win. For me thats still sucess as long as we try a couple young lads such as marshall and co.

On the debate of pkayers moving abroad the tax changes that will allow players to move to other EU countries and still claim rebate will impact irish rugby. Players approaching 30 will be very tempted to move abroad and top up their pension and frankly I dont blame them. A professional rugby career is a short one and they should be thinking about their future too. I will not begrudge Sean O'Brien, POC and co trying a coupl years abroad. Its up to the irfu to incentivise them to stay here along wih the provinces (maybe family too!)

As long as BOD is in the team, you should be assured a clean sweep, no?

GloriousEmpire wrote:As long as BOD is in the team, you should be assured a clean sweep, no?

That is absolutely hilarious. You must be the funniest Kiwi since....since......  

SecretFly wrote:
BTW... I'm talking about all Provinces here.  And I will mention them - Leinster, Ulster, Munster and Connacht.  Why do I get the impression you felt I was only concerned with one of them??

No no never thought that at all fly. I'm deliberately not making reference to the provinces because I see that as a separate issue - I'm specifically speaking about the impact of players moving abroad and the pros and cons to both them as individual and the Irish team.

The implications on club rugby is a bit more clear cut -where you have massive imbalances in financial power between teams and leagues, we'll see European rugby become less competitive and that is not good, no question.

The challenge is for the weaker clubs, unions, leagues to close the financial gap - players will move around based on money, lifestyle, silverware opportunities, game time, personal issues etc. and we have to accept that and make our league and teams as a attractive a place to play as possible.

Australia today looked very beatable. They'll no doubt be slicker by their 3rd game on tour but an England side that made quite a few errors themselves were pretty comfortable against them and more so than the 7-point margin suggests.

Australia looked like they didn't know how to take control of the game and get into the right areas, even though they were only a score behind they overplayed it in their own half and looked directionless.

Notch wrote:Australia today looked very beatable. They'll no doubt be slicker by their 3rd game on tour but an England side that made quite a few errors themselves were pretty comfortable against them and more so than the 7-point margin suggests.

Australia looked like they didn't know how to take control of the game and get into the right areas, even though they were only a score behind they overplayed it in their own half and looked directionless.

Yup. You could argue that by the third game they could be a little battered after 2 physical games.

Or that we could face a backlash if the wallabies loose 2 on the bounce ... agree though they weren't very impressive. Cooper and Falou looked threatening and could have won but they were second best today in most aspects.

Think Kilgore got it wrong on the try though - definitely obstruction on Moore.

And Dudley Phillips inexplicably failed to see mike brown standing in touch the resul of which was a 90 yard swing in territory and possession and englands first try

And George Clancy missed Vunipola turning in at the scrum on a few occasions

Given Clancy didn't bin one Aussie for the half dozen penalties they gave in the scrum I thin you could allow a little gamesmanship in the scrum by England... AUS were wheeling, driving purposely early and feeding all to counter their weaker scrum... But they never got pinged for those either.

Anyhow, how do you fancy your chances vs Samoa?  Depends what side they put out I guess. They put Scotland and Italy to the sword in SA this year. They are a good side and will probably build up quite a butchers bill... Sort of match a guy like BOD would be perhaps better to miss rather than miss the matches vs AUS and NZ???

Against Samoa? Yeah I don't know I think they are a very good side now and not to be underestimated - they'd at the upper end of the 6N table in my opinion.

There are so many unknowns around this Irish side with the new coaching set up and personnel changes - the only game I am sure about is the NZ one. I'm not that bothered about the results to be honest - only that we show enough to have something to build on for the 6N...

Its hard to know with Samoa. They are very hit and miss. Give them an inch and they'll take a mile. Put them under pressure and they do some silly things. Thats what Ireland will do and I expect Ireland to win.

Johnny Sexton an unused sub for Racing this weekend. Good news, he may still miss the Samoa game though. He's obviously lost weight and has been pretty underwhelming in training by the sounds of things. 'Flat' was the word used.

Tbh, it might be a good opportunity to give Jackson a run in a proper test match with Sexton coming on after 50 to close it out.

U

rodders wrote:Against Samoa? Yeah I don't know I think they are a very good side now and not to be underestimated - they'd at the upper end of the 6N table in my opinion.

There are so many unknowns around this Irish side with the new coaching set up and personnel changes - the only game I am sure about is the NZ one. I'm not that bothered about the results to be honest - only that we show enough to have something to build on for the 6N...  

Upper end??

Don't get carried away lad..

mystiroakey wrote:U

rodders wrote:Against Samoa? Yeah I don't know I think they are a very good side now and not to be underestimated - they'd at the upper end of the 6N table in my opinion.

There are so many unknowns around this Irish side with the new coaching set up and personnel changes - the only game I am sure about is the NZ one. I'm not that bothered about the results to be honest - only that we show enough to have something to build on for the 6N...  

Upper end??

Don't get carried away lad..

The IRB rankings (based of results not opinion) place them behind England, France and Wales but ahead of Ireland, Scotland and Italy so they would be mid-table. If they had access to all their players in all their games and they did not have to play all their games away from home they would probably be higher in the rankings.

I cant see how anyone in there right mind could put Somoa above England, Wales or France.(or 'upper end')

And I think comparing them to 6nations as if its worthwhile;e misses a key point. SAMOA should play with the SH lot. Then they would get better.

Its a valid point because they are playing the European nations - I said they'd be at the upper end, meaning closer the top than bottom of the table - a fair claim if you look at the IRB rankings.

you mean middle of the road if you look at the rankings, and i am going to be honest You as an Irishmen should also expect to be better than them.

If they ever get allowed into the exclusive Sanzaar community then we may see a significant improvement as they have the potential

We Irishmen expect to be better than we are.  That's about all you can hope for after our International downturn period since 2009.

So yes, Ireland and Irishmen expect to be not low or even mid ranking in terms of 6N - we expect to be in the top three area - like we've been before for extended periods of the last decade.

But first things first.  New coach, new hopes, new goals to set.  Samoa is the beginning of our attempts to struggle back up the charts

Somoa offer you ranking points, so its a good enough start I suppose.. Can your Heno cup heroes actually perform internationally for once?

mystiroakey wrote:Somoa offer you ranking points, so its a good enough start I suppose.. Can your Heno cup heroes actually perform internationally for once?

We'll see, mystir. We've performed more than 'once' before so it shouldn't be too difficult for us to have another few performances into the future.

I think Schmidt can make a big difference. If you take Leinster and add in the top players from Munster, Ulster and Connacht you'll end up with a very good team.


I've said for years that Schmidts Leinster were better than Ireland even though Ireland had better players to choose from.

Sorry Fly you have performed well on 4 previous occasions. How could I forget. WE are probably due another 2 within our lifetimes. Its looking promising

If Samoa had the chance to play with home advantage against big test sides I think they could be further up the charts.

They'll be really tough to break down. We need a physical and abrasive pack out. Some suggestions that Devin Toner might start ahead of Tuohy; can't pretend I'm not concerned about that.

mystiroakey wrote:Sorry Fly you have performed well on 4 previous occasions. How could I forget. WE are probably due another 2 within our lifetimes. Its looking promising

Thanks Mystir.  You must lack so much confidence that you feel inclined on a Sunday morning to still wum an Irish guy - after a Australian victory - : an Irish guy who ain't wumming.

But I'll wum then, if you can't talk any other way.  

Is England an International team?  I'd guess you'd be pretty quick to declare it is.  Did Ireland beat that team 8 times in the first 14 years of 6N so far?  So your counting is off.

It was just a bad joke Fly

If I was the milky bar kid (joe) I would chose this side for these reasons

Healy- Is quite simply a class act, in scrum and in loose.
Best- Our no.1 choice, needs time with the Irish lineout IMO.
Ross- Looks like his hold on the jersey is loosening but we need him to anchor scrum.

Toner- POC's absence (looks pretty certain) calls for a lineout man and Toner is that and more.
Tuohy- Arguably the form lock this year so far.

McLaughlin- I want to try out the Leinster backrow. Massively underrated. Lineout option, grafter, work horse, can carry, can ruck, can tackle. Little bit of everything.
SOB- The form backrow in Ireland over last 3 weeks.
Heaslip- Starting as captain. To add some dynamism but also great work-rate and graft.

Murray- The form 9 in Ireland apart from Marmion and blowing the Leinster pair off the park.
Jackson- Resting Sexton and Jackson is a better starting option than Madigan IMO.

Marshall- Playing some great stuff and gets some gametime with BOD, which will stand to him.
BOD- Needs game time badly! Even if only 60minutes or so.

Earls- One of the form wings in Ireland at the moment and has insane potential here.
Bowe- Narrowly gets in ahead of McFadden. Bowe offers a very different threat to Earls.
Kearney- Lucky to be in the team due to few alternatives. Needs some big games.

Cronin-Court-Fitzpatrick-McCarthy-POM-Boss-Madigan-McFadden

I would choose this side. I'll preface it by saying that I'm picking it to give Healy, O'Connell and Sexton time to get themselves right for the Australia and New Zealand games. I view them as clear first choices in their positions in the final two tests but am picking a different 1, 5 and 10 for the Samoa game. This is not a bad opportunity to mix it up a little... but not too much because Samoa are very dangerous! It's still a must win game.

I would choose Brian O'Driscoll as Captain. I feel that with Jackson and Marshall relatively inexperienced we need his leadership behind the scrum and giving him back the armband will hopefully inspire him back to the heights he's capable of. There were times in the Six Nations when Heaslip was Captain where O'Driscoll was peripheral for us at best.

1- Court
2- Best
3- Ross
4- McCarthy
5- Tuohy
6- O'Mahony
7- O'Brien
8- Heaslip
9- Murray
10- Jackson
11- Bowe
12- Marshall
13- O'Driscoll (c)
14- McFadden
15- R. Kearney

16. Cronin 17. McGrath 18. Fitzpatrick 19. Toner 20. Henry 21. Reddan 22. Sexton 23. D. Kearney

The wing was the hardest call. I view it as important to have a second goal kicker on the pitch and thats why McFadden makes it in. The form selection for me would be Earls and Bowe. But once Earls had missed out on the starting XV, I wanted Kearney on the bench to get a taste of test rugby before probably dropping out of the 23 for the next two games. I also wanted a guy who can cover fullback as a specialist on the bench.

I would have picked Madigan over Jackson due to his place kicking even just a few weeks ago but that has been scuppered by his lack of form/starts in the big games. Jackson is a very capable place kicker when he's in the groove but can lose his rhythm if he misses a few early on. We know if he misses one or two we have options on the pitch with Fergus in there. It allows us to accomodate the guy who I think has been playing the best rugby at 10 in Ireland this season- I also believe developing Jackson as a back-up to Sexton for the RWC in 2015 is very important.

Not bad thinking at all Notch re: the winger booth. McFadden is playing really well at the moment too.

Only thing I would say is that the pack is exceptionally nonathletic.

What's the consensus on the back row? I think most of us agree that SOB, POM and Heaslip (despite his struggles as captain) are the top three individuals, but would Henry or McLaughlin create a more balanced unit?

SOB looks like a better openside every week so maybe a "natural 7" like Henry would no longer make that much of a difference.

*and surely we should trial a new TH against Samoa? It would be awful if Ross played all three gamnes

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Only thing I would say is that the pack is exceptionally nonathletic.

I think thats why Tuohy should be an automatic choice in the second row! A guy who can run in wide channels and take and give a pass as well as the hard graft. This should be his breakthrough series.

Agree that Tuohy should find himself as a starter if he takes his chance this series. Ryan has been really underwhelming for a while now.

I'm with Losty on his point. POM is better than McLaughlin and Henry IMO but at least in green he seems to disjoint the backrow because he stands so wide so often (and must be said hasn't had a great workrate in a number of Irish games - US tour was a massive improvement). I think McLaughlin is a great shout particularly if Healy and Tuohy are in the front five and definitely if Cronin gets a start, as the three mentioned like to play loose as does POM so having McL in there in particular would be a great call.

Also, the Leinster backrow is outrageously good, so I'm not sure why you'd break up such a balanced unit.

theslosty wrote:What's the consensus on the back row? I think most of us agree that SOB, POM and Heaslip (despite his struggles as captain) are the top three individuals, but would Henry or McLaughlin create a more balanced unit?

SOB looks like a better openside every week so maybe a "natural 7" like Henry would no longer make that much of a difference.

One of the areas which I think may test supporters desires to see 'horses for courses' versus old provincial loyalties. I don't think anyone would argue that the best 3 currently fit are POM,SOB and Heaslip (O'Brien and O'Mahoney in particular have been excellent recently) but they've never really ticked as a unit. McLaughlin has been going well this season and I'd say an all Leinster backrow will play at some point though I think Schmidt will mix it up for each test.