Ireland V Australia

First topic message reminder :

ME-109 wrote:All water under the bridge now....Aus up next which will be interesting...someone start a thread

How hard was that..........

MrsP wrote:That really was depressing.

I think all the more so because of my hopes that things would be better than last season. I don't understand it as they played like men who were not happy and yet all the buzz coming from the camp seems to suggest that they are happy.

Individual errors, systems failures, poor desicions from very unexpected quarters.

One thing I was wondering, does anyone think it was a deliberate ploy to use Marshall as a decoy in almost every move?

I found it infuriating - It was as if we expected Australia to be all over him, and so we were trying to outsmart them! I'd be surprised if most of the Australia squad had even heard his name before...
It was the prime opportunity to surprise them with an unknown, and we employed him in a linebreak attempt only once at my count.  

Very disappointed too, especially against an australia team in development mode. Positives were limited but Marshall shows he's ready to own the 12 jersey now. McFadden was very handy too in one of his best games to date.

My theory is our players with ball in hand thought they could mow over australia rather than running into spaces, which admittingly were at a premium. This included POC, sob, best, ross, toner, bowe, redden who tried to bash into defenders, or passed to players running straight into australian defenders, resulting in slow ball for ireland. Slow ball means death for ireland's gameplan(well same for most teams), as it relys on stretching defences to eventually create holes out wide.

Now i'm going to put this down to naivity that the irish could simply play english style rugby and bully australia. Against new zealand the players know this approach will not work so will hopefully play to our strengths and make more sensible decisions when to attack.

I also think a number of players are not playing well and schmidt has limited choice for alternatives given all the injuries, so its up to the likes of POc, ross, BOD, Kearney, reddan, murray and heaslip to lift their game as they all played well below the standards we expect.

Long journey ahead, and we are relying on players recovering from injuries in order to be competitive in the 6N. Players like henry, sexton, gilroy, earls, zebo, ryan, ferris woudl all make a difference.

Without reading other posts my thoughts are that was one of the most abject and pathetic Irish performances I have seen in a decade. We were not switched on, we had the line speed of a snail and technically it was truly awful. Schmidt needs to a grip and quick. Play like that against the All Blacks and it will a cricket score

To me Best, McFadden, SOB, Marshall and Healy can walk off that pitch with some respect - the rest oh dear, oh dear

Rob Kearney's aimless kicking is becoming beyond a joke - we need to look at alternatives
Bowe didn't look fit to me and I have say if so it was a terrible decision to play him
BOD is so slow in defence now - in open play he has gone from a strength to a weakness
Sexton we need him, Madigan gave away a try, is full of tricks but also full of errors
Reddan should never start another Ireland game - simple as. Murray was an improvement
Ross - a busted flush. Our scrums were awful. Imagine that scrum in the 6N !
Toner showed why he is not international class. I suspect some are blaming Healy for some of the scrums but I was looking at Toner's body position. His arse was so far in the air he could provide no power to support his prop and that was the problem on that side
POC had a poor game - both he and Toner dropped line out ball and very little power on display
Heaslip and POM were outgunned. Our backrow was supposed to be a strength and we were out gunned.
I am now convinced Henry needs to be a starter not because he is a better player than any of the other three but for the sake of balance. We cant keep having Best as our most prominent player at the breakdown
As for 80% of out back moves going straight from 10 to BOD and missing out Marshal. It became very predictable and a joke. If the main role of the 12 is clearing out rucks which is what Marshall was doing D'Arcy might as well played. HE did well with a couple of runs though
Got to seriously question coaching tactics on that and much more

Difficult to see where we go from here

aucklandlaurie wrote:
 Jeez your a brave man rodders, I said this during the Lions tour, and a posse of Irishmen chased me all over 606 v2 for the next month.

I wish BOD could regenerate like Dr Who Laurie. He's been on the wane since 09 but this is the first time I've felt that he's becoming a liability. I thought he might bounce back after the Lions disappointment but its clear from the last few weekends that at this level he can't cut it any more. The most telling thing is that his defensive reads are now all over the place.

The problems yesterday started in our front 5 and worked backwards - I think we massively overrated our forwards and under estimated Australia's. If they were able to get parity they always had a clear edge in the backs. They dominated upfront quite comfortably so its not really a surprise that they took us to school.

Next week will be embarrassing if we can't find a huge improvement but looking at the panel available its hard to see where that improvement can come from.

To be honest this isn't a bad thing in the long run. Reading and listening to the comments of some of the pundits this is the reality check we need. There are no silver bullets here, we simply aren't good enough and until we realise that there's no where to go. The plus side is the young guys - Archer, Jackson, Marshall, Toner, Madigan, Henshaw, O'Mahoney etc. have capacity to learn and improve but the older guys have been exposed and will only fall further of the pace - Ross, BOD in particular.

Schmidt is a clever guy and if anyone can turn it around its him but he needs to get this side punching above its weight in the short term because this is a very average panel of players. There isn't a lot of option for next week - I think we'll see a similar side line out, maybe some change on the bench.

rodders wrote: . The plus side is the young guys - Archer, Jackson, Marshall, Toner, Madigan, Henshaw, O'Mahoney etc. have capacity to learn and improve

 

The thing is will they all make it
I don't believe Toner will and it is too early to tell regarding Henshaw and Archer

As much as I respect BOD, he should have retired before last 6N. The worst thing that Schmidt has done was to convince him to stay on. I know the thought behind it is to help the younger players coming into the side but he is not performing well enough to do that.

Australia played very well yesterday, some of the old Australia come through when they played against England. Ireland looked like they was not wanting tom be their, the skill levels was not the same.

Regards BOD, surely it is time for him to call it a day at international level. It is a shame but time is time i am affraid.

geoff999rugby wrote:

rodders wrote:  . The plus side is the young guys - Archer, Jackson, Marshall, Toner, Madigan, Henshaw, O'Mahoney etc. have capacity to learn and improve

 

The thing is will they all make it
I don't believe Toner will and it is too early to tell regarding Henshaw and Archer

Well they won't but they will get better at least. A bigger issue is the likes of BOD, Ross - even Bowe, Heaslip and Kearney. ROG and some of the pundits are sort of wish washing over the performances of the older guys to put a positive spin, but it wasn't the inexperience of the young guys that cost us -1-15 we were out outmuscled, outsmarted and outplayed.

In terms of Toner - I think he is ok, in fact he was much better than O'Connell. The problem is like you say the scrum was mushed..but so was the lineout so Schmidt left himself no option with McCarthy on the bench. O'Connell doesn't have the power on the TH side so we have to bring in either McCarthy or Touhy. I'm not sure if even that will be to mask the weakness of our front row though - I don't think there's a lock pairing in world rugby who could do that to be honest.

We will have to disagree re Toner - he offered no power on the LH side.
As for the lineout Toner was as guilty, if not more so, than POC of dropping the ball.
Best was not responsible.

They might get better, they could hardly be worse, but is better good enough - that is what I question
Bowe and Heaslip have still much to offer and POC will stay for a while due to the lack of alternatives.

However I would agree we need to seriously consider putting BOD, Ross and Reddan out to grass.
Also given Kearney's continued poor kicking maybe Ireland should think of Payne as a future 15 and give Cave game time in the 6N's (but I feel asking for that is like banging your head against a brick wall - no one outside Ulster listens)

Nachos Jones wrote:As much as I respect BOD, he should have retired before last 6N. The worst thing that Schmidt has done was to convince him to stay on. I know the thought behind it is to help the younger players coming into the side but he is not performing well enough to do that.

Agree - to be honest for sake of his own dignity I hope he walks away.
It is sad watching an all time great struggling to be good enough

MrsP wrote:That really was depressing.

I think all the more so because of my hopes that things would be better than last season. I don't understand it as they played like men who were not happy and yet all the buzz coming from the camp seems to suggest that they are happy.

Individual errors, systems failures, poor desicions from very unexpected quarters.

One thing I was wondering, does anyone think it was a deliberate ploy to use Marshall as a decoy in almost every move?

The annoying thing is, every time we did use him, he broke the defensive line.  He made 4 clean breaks in this game, more than anyone else on the pitch for either Australia or Ireland.

His passing game was also fantastic, which was great to see.  I was very happy with Marshall's performance.

It is sad Geoff, he has not been a force for a few years. Like ROG, he has hung around too long and his performances are getting worse and worse.

Madigan made a mistake for the Cooper try yesterday but other than that I thought that he was very good. I would still start with Jackson though and have Madigan as an impact sub.

I suspect its now time for Ireland to rebuild and look to the future.  too many players past their best and not enough youngsters coming thru.  AIs used to be the time to blood players and to build depth.  Now they seem to be must win games.  Look to the future and get the young players some game time. This is how scotland are using the AIs - to get some new / fringe / young players experience and to try out different combinations. this should do scotland well come the 6N. Ireland need to do this as well

Well regarding BOD, POC, Bowe etc. Is it any coincidence that they were all on the Lions tour? I know age matters but they look miles off where they were in the summer.


Where the match went wrong was mainly defense. Ireland had an 80% tackle completion rate which is shocking. Ireland has the softest defense in rugby because they're trying to do this choke tackle thing. I think they should go back to basics. Not only was the defense structure wrong but so many individual errors were also made.


The attack was good for 20 min in the first half but after that individual errors killed all the momentum. Sloppy errors like dropping the lineout ball etc would kill any team. Toner and POC were guilty here.


Australia stopped Irelands ball carriers from gaining any momentum. Any time POM, Healy or SOB got the ball they were tackled by 2 or 3 men. It reminded me of the Wales match in the world cup.


The irony is POC and BOD had shocking games overall. The scrums were embarrassing too. Ross has gone backwards this season at an alarming rate. The subs made no difference.


I also think Australia played the ref better. They seemed to be going off their feet and in from the side in every ruck which stopped Ireland from contesting. Ireland were not smart enough to know how to respond.

Nachos Jones wrote:It is sad Geoff, he has not been a force for a few years. Like ROG, he has hung around too long and his performances are getting worse and worse.

Madigan made a mistake for the Cooper try yesterday but other than that I thought that he was very good. I would still start with Jackson though and have Madigan as an impact sub.

Ball in hand Madigan was ok but he had the Kearney disease of aimless kicking down the throat of quality counter attackers - madness.
This is something Ireland need to sort out quickly

Yeah Madigans first contribution was to come on and twice kick straight down the Aussies throat, which was alarming. But why does a guy come in and do that? Because nothing else is on. We have no plan in how to build phases from deep and when we tried we had no way of generating quick ball and made unforced errors.

I remember Jackson talking about our defeat to Italy last year and saying he saw there was nothing on in the backline so he had to kick, but no-one was chasing the kicks... basically a team with no plan other than reactionary panic where communication had totally broken down. Our second half reminded me of that. The sense of panic, the lack of organisation. Pretty bad.

I was optimistic we'd have put new structures in place to get the ball in the right parts of the field, to build phases, to get the defence right but that hasn't happened yet. That will take time to happen. I think we are in a transitionary period and we might as well try and move some older players on and start from scratch in the Six Nations in terms of giving inexperienced players time to establish themselves; a new way of playing for a new generation of players.

Sexton being flogged for Racing Metro has been a disaster for us as well, of course. Niggling injury last week stopped him from training and then a hamstring this week- the body needs rest. It can't go on a Lions tour at the end of a long season have a week or two off and then start playing a game every week. He's knackered and won't be available next week in all likelihood.

rodders wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:

rodders wrote:  . The plus side is the young guys - Archer, Jackson, Marshall, Toner, Madigan, Henshaw, O'Mahoney etc. have capacity to learn and improve

 

The thing is will they all make it
I don't believe Toner will and it is too early to tell regarding Henshaw and Archer

Well they won't but they will get better at least. A bigger issue is the likes of BOD, Ross - even Bowe, Heaslip and Kearney. ROG and some of the pundits are sort of wish washing over the performances of the older guys to put a positive spin, but it wasn't the inexperience of the young guys that cost us -1-15 we were out outmuscled, outsmarted and outplayed.

In terms of Toner - I think he is ok, in fact he was much better than O'Connell. The problem is like you say the scrum was mushed..but so was the lineout so Schmidt left himself no option with McCarthy on the bench. O'Connell doesn't have the power on the TH side so we have to bring in either McCarthy or Touhy. I'm not sure if even that will be to mask the weakness of our front row though - I don't think there's a lock pairing in world rugby who could do that to be honest.  

I think our front row problems are slightly exagerated,Ross is on the way out and we're hoping Moore overtakes him by the 6N or else Deccie Fitz needs to stay fit but Pollock allowed the Aussies to push early in every scrum,he did the same in the 1st Lions Test and we saw what the same props did in the 3rd Test so while our scrum is not an are of strength yet I don't think it will be as poor again.

Our defense was awful and the Aussies scored tries without applying any pressure on us but in the 1st half our attack showed signs of what we can expect in the future.We forced 5 kickable penalties and a yellow card in the 1st half while also messing up at least 2 good try scoring chances.It all fell to pieces when Sexton went off as Madigan just can't organise the team to attack in the same way and the Aussies pushed up hard as unlike Sexton he never kept them honest by chipping over the top.

Very few positives really except that Marshall showed he can play 12 at the highest level even if he was underused (but I think not that JS has seen what he can do he'll tweak the attack to use him more) and some small signs that our attack is starting to function but it's far from perfect and it needs to function for 80 minutes.

Our defense needs to start running forward instead of sideways and backwards as we can't give up easy yards and scores like we have been,the 2nd try showed the folly of this.We had enough numbers but PoM got handed off like he was a scrum half and they got in behind us.There's no blame on PoM for that you can't make an effective tackle when you're running sideways and that's the entire teams fault.

Is Chris Henry fit for the next game?

No, he'll not be back before Christmas most likely.

Well then, the reality is there are not many changes we can make for NZ is there?  Or any that would be even worth making.

1) Healy
2) Best
3) Ross
4) Toner
5) POC
6) POM
7) SOB
8) Heaslip
9) Reddan
10) Sexton
11) McFadden
12) Marshall
13) BOD
14) Bowe
15) Kearney

So what changes would people like to see for NZ?  Being realistic.  Obviously Murray coming in at 9 is an obvious one.

I can see Schmidt dropping Marshall for D'Arcy though, for experience.  Would be a huge mistake, but I reckon D'Arcy-BOD will get the nod for one last hurray against the All Blacks.  Ah well.

Cronin McGrath Fitzpatrick Toner Heaslip Reddan Madigan D. Kearney

No way Sexton will play him a dodgy hamstring. Would be a big bonus if he was available.

Notch - I would be extremely happy if that were the team, but I cannot see Heaslip being dropped, Jackson starting or Tuohy getting a chance.  Madigan would probably be more likely to start at 10.  Rightly or wrongly.

Notch wrote:

Healy Best Ross
POC Tuohy
McLaughlin O'Mahony O'Brien

Murray Jackson
Marshall BOD
McFadden R.Kearney Bowe

Cronin McGrath Fitzpatrick Toner Heaslip Reddan Madigan D. Kearney

No way Sexton will play him a dodgy hamstring. Would be a big bonus if he was available.

I'd like to see that team,wouldn't object to Deccie Fitz starting at 3 either.

Is it worth looking at Jennings getting a go at 7 at this stage, or is that far too extreme at this point?  Surely something should be done to try and correct the back row?  Jennings is a very experienced player, though obviously NZ would be his biggest challenge yet.

Notch where have you heard Henry will not be back till Christmas?

I know November is a write off but nothing beyond that

Six weeks means he's estimated to be back mid to late December.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Is it worth looking at Jennings getting a go at 7 at this stage, or is that far too extreme at this point?  Surely something should be done to try and correct the back row?  Jennings is a very experienced player, though obviously NZ would be his biggest challenge yet.

No don't see much merit in that imo,McLaughlin to 6 and O'Mahoney to 8 would be a better fit imo.

Well it sounds like Marshall will be rotated out for D'Arcy if Sexton fails to recover;

http://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/international/2013/1117/487205-schmidt-will-not-gamble-on-sexton-fitness/

I've got to say, dropping one of the only players who didn't let the jersey down for a game we aren't going to win anyway in favour of a centre parternship that will be nowhere near the next World Cup wouldn't exactly delight me.

Joe Schmidt is right about the number of things needing fixed and it being a gradual process, I think we'll only be able to judge him after the RWC 2015. But thats what we should be building towards now. There's no point in experience when the experienced guys are not good enough and not going to be around.

I would rather lose by 50 and learn something than 30 and rely on D'Arcy-BOD.

Hope so Ulster will get Marshall back.

Not being part of next Sunday's pasting will be good for any young player

I am sorry Joe Schmidt but D'Arcy is no longer the force he once was and he is not the future so why even consider him? Marshall played extremely well yesterday and has deserved to keep the 12 shirt. Rotation can be a good thing but why not rotate players for Irelands future?

If Marshall is to stay, then would it not be worth putting someone who he regulary plays alongside inside him (PJ) and vice versa. Seems logical to me. For me BOD has to go, he is doing himself no favours by hanging on in there. We are going to get absoloutly hammered by the AB next week, unless there is a minor miracle mid week. I just don't see us getting anyway near them, sorry to say. I feel sorry for those players that will be going out to play them, some will front up some will just go through the motions.

Thinking back on the game, would actually start Trimble at 14 and drop Bowe to the bench. Trimble has been better than Bowe for Ulster for a while, and at the very least he brings some aggression in defence and a good kick chasing game to the backline.

It really baffles me why we are even considering dropping the 12 who made three/four clean line breaks all of which came with an inexperienced 10 on the pitch.

Healy Best Ross
POC Tuohy
McLaughlin O'Mahony O'Brien

Murray Jackson
Marshall BOD
McFadden R.Kearney Trimble

Cronin McGrath Fitzpatrick Toner Heaslip Reddan Madigan Bowe

And yet, come next Sunday we will all be tuning in with a slight sense of hope that Ireland will turn up and finally beat the AB's.

The life of an Irish rugby fan is a torturous one...

What I'll be hoping to see is some intensity, passion, hunger, aggression... and some green shoots looking towards the Six Nations.

I think that Schmidt won't make too many changes although you never know. I would say that it took him a few games with Leinster to get things going so hopefully we see the same with Ireland

I have faith in Schmidt ME-109, I do think that he is the right man for the job but he does have to say farewell to some of the older players that are not performing and start introducing a team with an eye on the future.

ME-109, you are to be congratulated on your restraint this weekend!
Where is Gibson anyway? Maybe we didn't believe enough!  

Still early days. Maybe we were too high after last week.

Who are our alternatives to Kearney, if he doesn't start to recapture some form?
Somebody above mentioned Payne in the long term. What about Zebo or Earls?
Jones seems to be the incumbent at fullback for Munster. How is he playing this year?

I seem to remember quite a few disgruntled Leinster fans when Joe started there.

Saturday was awful, truely awful but let's give it time.

I don't think that Joe is to blame - he was pretty openly critical about the performance against Samoa - the defensive frailties and poor kicks. I lost count of how many we put down Faloua's throat, exactly what he said not to do.

I just think the players were shell shocked - they overestimated themselves and underestimated Australia. I don't think we ever recovered from Australia's first try and the ease with which they skinned us.

san wrote:ME-109, you are to be congratulated on your restraint this weekend!
Where is Gibson anyway? Maybe we didn't believe enough!  

Still early days. Maybe we were too high after last week.

Who are our alternatives to Kearney, if he doesn't start to recapture some form?
Somebody above mentioned Payne in the long term. What about Zebo or Earls?
Jones seems to be the incumbent at fullback for Munster. How is he playing this year?

Give a fella a break...I might have been a DK supporter (or at least understood the problems around Irish Rugby) but I do think Schmidt is a class coach. I don't think its possible to make any judgements until the end of the 6ns. We have Scotland/Wales/Italy at home and France/England away so a minimum of three wins is acceptable. Two hammerings in Twickenham and Paris (i.e by >15 points) are not though.

I want to see the team looking completely scared shiiteless next week. They could possibly  be at the end of the biggest hammering ever given out by NZ at home. Whatever people think of ROG his comments that when he played for Munster/Ireland that the biggest motivating factor was that the people who supported the team(s) were people he had to pass in the street the next Monday and how hard it was to face people if he had played badly. Its about time the Irish players stopped talking bullcrap like a bunch of cossetted prima donnas and fronted up. Players like Moss Keane, Paddy Johns, Philip Matthews, Willie Duggan, Tom Kiernan etc didn't ever take a backward step. It is the least people deserve and it doesn't matter a bit who is in charge. It was the same with Kidney as it is with Schmidt its up to the players.

 

"Give a fella a break...I might have been a DK supporter (or at least understood the problems around Irish Rugby) but I do think Schmidt is a class coach. I don't think its possible to make any judgements until the end of the 6ns. We have Scotland/Wales/Italy at home and France/New Zealand away so a minimum of three wins is acceptable. Two hammerings in Twickenham and Paris (i.e by >15 points) are not though."

We have to go to NZ for the 6 Nations too????

ME-109 wrote:Its about time the Irish players stopped talking bullcrap like a bunch of cossetted prima donnas and fronted up. Players like Moss Keane, Paddy Johns, Philip Matthews, Willie Duggan, Tom Kiernan etc didn't ever take a backward step. It is the least people deserve and it doesn't matter a bit who is in charge.

Hear hear!  

Fixed that Mrs P....luckily it wasn't about Tip Tackles as I know you would hammer me (maybe yourself can discuss POMs with those that think its ok)

ME-109 wrote:I think that Schmidt won't make too many changes although you never know. I would say that it took him a few games with Leinster to get things going so hopefully we see the same with Ireland

Yep, hopefully just the one duff game more and then you click and win the Grand Slam next year.  

Did POM tip someone???

Must have missed hat!

MrsP wrote:Did POM tip someone???

Must have missed hat!

oops just edited the op..apologies

As usual massive overreaction to a poor performance. This is only Joe's second game and he gets a fools pardon from me because he will be the right man for the job once he adjusts to the very different world of Test rugby. He is bound to make mistakes but as long as he learns from them, Ireland will gradually improve. These games are perfect for making mistakes because nothing is riding on them, and sometimes an experiment has to be done to prove a theory.

1. Reddan was arguably not Test class in his prime, now it has been proven.
2. Kicking infield is a no-no against that Oz back three. It was like poking a sleeping dog - eventually you're going to get bitten. Crazy tactic.
3. POC is an inspirational leader but hasn't led this team and was chosen to be captain on reputation rather than form. His decision to kick for the corner at the start of the last quarter was frankly ridiculous considering Ireland were only 10 points behind at the time. It smacked of machismo from a man trying to impose his personality on the team and impress the new coach rather than any plausible rugby reason.
4. Yes there are injuries, but having no pace on the pitch or the bench makes it hard to score tries. If you're going to kick in-field someone has to put pressure on the receiver. Ferg for all his honest endeavour isn't quick enough to be a test winger, Bowe and Kearney were never lightning quick either so why not kick for the lines or pick DKearney/Trimble who could at least keep up with the play and capitalise on line breaks.
5. Pollock had an indifferent game with the whistle (Fardy should have been carded twice) but the coaches need to communicate those foibles to the players on the pitch so they can adjust accordingly.

Joe will learn from these mistakes and undoubtedly make more so patience will be needed until about this time next year when that will start to run out.

Re Henry

Notch wrote:Six weeks means he's estimated to be back mid to late December.

Where has it been mentioned that it is 6 weeks?

I know it was 6 weeks for Henderson but Henry I thought the only announcement was that he will miss the rest of the AI's nothing more

The Great Aukster wrote:4. Yes there are injuries, but having no pace on the pitch or the bench makes it hard to score tries. If you're going to kick in-field someone has to put pressure on the receiver. Ferg for all his honest endeavour isn't quick enough to be a test winger, Bowe and Kearney were never lightning quick either so why not kick for the lines or pick DKearney/Trimble who could at least keep up with the play and capitalise on line breaks.

Fair points aukster but the problem with putting into touch is our lineout was being picked apart.

When you have no set piece platform that leaves you pretty short of options. The fact that we were getting mullered at the breakdown and losing the collisions sent us into panic mode - in much the same way we did under Kidney and resorted to aimless kicking.

Agree on POC, when cool heads were needed we were found wanting. 20mins to go there was a sense of panic there when we should have taken the points.

I don't think there is an overreaction at all. The performance more than the result was the issue here. The lack of quality and skills is one thing but the lack of passion and fight in the side really can't be tolerated. There needs to be a serious backlash next week to restore some pride.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/24984528?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook

WTF? wasn't cooper Madigans opposite number? And didn't Madigan get distracted by the decoy runner rather than trusting the scrum half or backrow?? Who told Marshall it was his fault??