Ireland V Australia

First topic message reminder :

ME-109 wrote:All water under the bridge now....Aus up next which will be interesting...someone start a thread

How hard was that..........

Bowe, Marshall, POM, POC and Best must have messed up all the Leinster magic!  

Bowe, POC and POM were poor today. Best was ok, Marshall was ok.

Reddan, Sexton in the first half, BOD, Toner and Ross were all pretty poor too.

Great Aukster how did the Irish and Irish Lions do against a weak Australian team?

Notch wrote:I think every test match is important. I'd be willing to sacrifice a few results this autumn for long-term progression, but Schmidt has maybe preferred Leinster players when he's had to make a 50/50 call in the name of continuity and familiarity so thats a short-term strategy.

Well he is going to go for what he knows so nothing wrong there. I just think that he is taking a very long term view in selecting players and working them out... Could be good

Linebreaker wrote:I was waiting for the TMO to say "there was a knock on... but not a big one... you can award the try!"  

it's not twickenham!

I'm well aware that you tend to watch a position more when its one of your players playing there, but i felt marshall was rarely used. I found it puzzling because surely you do this when its a player that is going to be tightly watched by the opposition. Instead Marshall was left to do a lot of the ruck clearing after the backline plays.

I saw the one break near the end, but I must have missed a few others as I can't recall any. Solid enough in defense.

He seemed at fault for one of the Cooper's try - but assuming you take your opposite number, madigan should have had Cooper. I've no idea what there defensive strategy was though. madigan seemed to have one eye on the decoy runner - should that not be left to the backrow and scrum-half to defend?

And as said before, Redden was very poor and cost us a few tries.

When we see displays like that I tend to question mentality rather than coaching or strategy. Were the squad nervous/worried? Do they not trust each other in general, or are they too keen to try doing it all themselves to impress the new boss?

Honest opinion...it's early doors yet, overall performance a bit surprising for the wrong reasons. I think there is a reason Boss is starting ahead of Redden for leinster...

the only controversial comment I will make is can you imagine the comments if DK was in charge for a performance like this and secondly it ain't the HC Joe...

Well.... that was a reality check in terms of the quality of our players and where we stand in the world order - somewhere above Italy, Samoa, Tonga and Argentina and a long way behind Wales, England and Australia....never mind NZ...

That said, that was one of the worst Ireland performances in living memory, I can't think of a single positive - the set piece was a shambles, we were outmuscled up front and cut to ribbons out wide. The defence was appalling....the biggest concern was the attitude -no hunger, no aggression, no passion.

The old players look past it (sorry especially you Brian) and the young guys not good enough (yet).

Joe has a massive job on his hands....but sure things can't get worse.....

Bring on the ABs...

I'm glad you mentioned Marshalls ruck clearing Clive. I watched every ruck he hit in the first half (got too angry in the second to focus) and he clears rucks and generates ball better than our forwards. 

I thought he and McFadden did rightly. Beyond that it was shocking.

I had to agree with rodders as well. We have lived and relied on O'Driscoll and O'Connell for over a decade but on today's evidence they don't look fit for modern international rugby. I'm gutted

rodders wrote:Well.... that was a reality check in terms of the quality of our players and where we stand in the world order - somewhere above Italy, Samoa, Tonga and Argentina and a long way behind Wales, England and Australia....never mind NZ...

That said, that was one of the worst Ireland performances in living memory, I can't think of a single positive - the set piece was a shambles, we were outmuscled up front and cut to ribbons out wide. The defence was appalling....the biggest concern was the attitude -no hunger, no aggression, no passion.

The old players look past it (sorry especially you Brian) and the young guys not good enough (yet).

Joe has a massive job on his hands....but sure things can't get worse.....

Bring on the ABs...

I wish i was as sure as you about these things Rodders!

I was trying to be positive clive! ....

Luckily Schmidt has proven himself adept at raising accuracy and skill levels. But he never had to deal with a team as mentally switched off and apathetic as that. He walked into a highly motivated team that had won one HC and was very hungry for more at Leinster. This time he's walked into a shambles. Non existent confidence, skill levels, or even enthusiasm. And a zombie stadium where the fans barely make a sound. Anf to be fair to them the team just haven't given them anything to make a noise about in a long team. The scale of the job he's faced with is so much bigger.

Toner, Reddan, Ross shouldn't be in the team in the first place. Bowe and R Kearney deserve to be dropped. Especially Kearney. He's awful. And actually I'd even like to drop POC and BOD if we had players good enough to replace them because they were both cr@p. I also am not to happy with either Sexton or POM. They're both all attitude and no delivery. I'd prefer Jackson at 10, O'Brien in his best position at 6 and a real 7.

McFadden doesn't get enough credit.

Would you seriously make all those changes for the All Blacks match, Rogue?

Agree with a lot of that feckless. I thought Bowe tried to offer himself in attack but he does look out of sorts to my mind. The Cummins non try I couldn't believe was so close. Tommy should have nailed him.

Agreed on McFadden. I think he is there on merit. We lack an enforcer and have done since Ferris has been injured. O'Mahoney just to my mind can't play 6 internationally as it is by far e most attritional of the backrow positions. I wouldn't be averse to seeing him at 8 and I think Heaslip is another who needs a boot.

I'm not sure what we can do for next week mind you

Just to add to the   That has been this day there's a sports journo tweeting that Olding is thought to be gone for the season pending an MRI. Remember black Saturday !!!

Really Stand? Geoff said it was no biggie on the Ulster thread

Feckless Rogue wrote:McFadden doesn't get enough credit.

McFadden was comfortably our best player and can't be faulted for attitude.

That said I think there is a genuine lack of pace from 13-15 and that we desperately need Zebo, Gilroy and Earls available - maybe Dave Kearney too. The few occaisions we made line breaks there was no support to finish and our outside backs have been skinned too easily over the past 2 weekends. The warning signs were there last week. BOD is shot, Kearney and Bowe look like they are running in treacle at times and McFadden tends to get sucked narrow in defence too. There are real problems to address or NZ will have a field day.....

McFadden is a much improved player and deserves credit for his efforts.

Iclivemcl wrote:Really Stand? Geoff said it was no biggie on the Ulster thread

It's on Uafc. The tweet is from a guy who is the sport journo for the NI daily mirror. Definitely nothing official but I will just assume the worst today.......


Now I am going to go out and punch someone in the face

McFadden was our best player IMO.

Kearney was awful again. He hasn't been good in a long long time. But who else do we have? Madigan, Kearney jnr or Henshaw at the moment. So I guess Kearney has to start next week by default.

POC has looked poor but I guess he needs more than 1 and a half games under Schmidt.

Next week would be the last game Bod plays for ireland if it was up to me.

It's such a pity earls Zebo and gilroy and Henry are out. They'd all be in contention right now if they were fit.

I've always defended our players, but perhaps I am only realising now that Schmidt has far more work to do than Kidney did.

Under Kidney, the persistent question was, "why can't these players play for Ireland the way they do for their provinces?"

But now...

Best has definitely lost form.
Ross now brings very little to Ireland or indeed Leinster.
POC really disappointed me today, the passion just wasn't there. Mystifying. And he shouldn't be totally past it, he was a vital player for the Lions only a few months ago.
Heaslip is nowhere near the player he once was. Ferris is no longer part of the set-up.
Sexton has had a very disappointing 2013. Racing move already looks stupid.
Kearney is badly short on confidence, only a year ago he was putting in some truly inspirational displays for both Leinster and Ireland.

If Schmidt had come in after RWC 2011, I really believe we'd have had some real success under him, but now we can only set our expectations low, in fact even the mediocrity we endured under Kidney could be difficult to maintain.

In relation to the last comment, we had 11 players today who started against AUS in the wc.

theslosty wrote:I've always defended our players, but perhaps I am only realising now that Schmidt has far more work to do than Kidney did.

Under Kidney, the persistent question was, "why can't these players play for Ireland the way they do for their provinces?"

But now...

Best has definitely lost form.
Ross now brings very little to Ireland or indeed Leinster.
POC really disappointed me today, the passion just wasn't there. Mystifying. And he shouldn't be totally past it, he was a vital player for the Lions only a few months ago.
Heaslip is nowhere near the player he once was. Ferris is no longer part of the set-up.
Sexton has had a very disappointing 2013. Racing move already looks stupid.
Kearney is badly short on confidence, only a year ago he was putting in some truly inspirational displays for both Leinster and Ireland.

If Schmidt had come in after RWC 2011, I really believe we'd have had some real success under him, but now we can only set our expectations low, in fact even the mediocrity we endured under Kidney could be difficult to maintain.

Just to correct you on Rory Best but don't confuse 1 game with 'form'. He wasn't good today although our lineout woes were down to handling and not throwing. That said he has been standout in every other game this season for ulster and Ireland. That's form.

I thought Best was one of the few players to come out as being mediocre on the day, whereas the rest were poor! At least he hit all his jumpers.

Notch wrote:I thought Best was one of the few players to come out as being mediocre on the day, whereas the rest were poor! At least he hit all his jumpers.

To bad they then dropped the ball. Looks like Jackson or Madigan for next week.

Jackson on merit I think, but I'd like to see Madigan involved prominently off the bench.

Can't believe Olding might be out for the season after being tackled in the last minute of a Ravens game! I mean, the very last minute...

It's not official so I just hope against hope it's not as bad. In truth Joe Schmidt needs to decide whether Brian O'Driscoll should be involved in the 6N and in what capacity. 

Given we will most likely be starting a rookie 10 next week I just hope he doesn't go back to D'arcy. When we used Marshall we made yards/breaks. It shouldn't be close

For me Healy, Marshall, McFadden and Madigan when he came on were the only players who put in something that could be called a performance today.

I know Best hasn't fallen as badly as some but at the start of this year I'd have been able to say with some confidence he was the best hooker in Europe.
I'd consider starting Cronin vs NZ, I believe his explosiveness and support running is something we need but I very much accept it would be a gamble.

I recognise that it is Schmidt's style to play close to the gainline, but our players clearly can't execute this style of attack against international opposition. The backline is also very flat and so we don't have players running onto the ball with pace. We go from side to side until we make an error or kick possession away.

Schmidt has made some changes from Kidney. In the first half I thought he we did play with intensity and speed but without accuracy or genuine end product. The forwards are also more involved in attacking play.
It's been brought up that we lack front 5 ball carriers, I agree. It means SOB is just used as a battering ram, rather than the destructive support runner he is at his best. He's also become a more intelligent player so I am confused why Schmidt didn't use him more creatively.

One final (relatively minor) point - Sexton has changed his goal kicking style, and the technique looked unconvincing. He was using a shorter run-up and his body shape was more side-on. I can only hope ROG is a better coach than he is a pundit...

That was dreadful. I cannot remember when I last felt like this after an Ireland display. I can find no positives from it. Watching on the Beeb, Philip Matthews said on a number of occasions that Ireland were complacent. Was it as simple as that?

I don't know. I will admit I have been one of the few people that was not prepared to hail Joe Schmidt as the saviour of Irish rugby. I have been around long enough to see Ireland playing well and Ireland playing rubbish (I went to my first game in Lansdowne Road in January 1970, so I have seen a few irish teams in my time). However, I have never seen the kind of hype associated with a change of coach as there has been over the past few months with JS taking over from DK.

I know we have a number of good players injured. But I saw no intent, no cohesion, no support play, no ... Oh Lord, I could go on. I am really disappointed by the first two games of JS's reign.

I'm impressed sloty you have two posts and managed to bring kidney and O'Gara into it....

2nd game in without plenty of players I wouldn't be writing off Joe Schmidt yet. We have a proven technical coach over a guy who had clearly stayed too a year or two too long in the job and had gone stale. 

We are reaping now what was sewn in the eras before which is that we have not developed backups to key players (two obvious examples leap to mind). I'm not absolving Schmidt as he convinced BOD to stay on for instance but I'm keen to see what he takes from it. My own preference is we cut the cord, identify who we want try and build on younger guys. That's not to say you discard every over 30 or anything but we have to ask ourselves what the cost/benefit ratio of playing our older guys is. 

Madigan to me did ok losty. Cost us 7 but he was barely on and the sheer number of runners Oz used exposed him and to be honest was clever play. McFadden and Marshall were positives for me. Healy is Healy but the scrum is a worry. I'm not blaming him I just don't think he can cover for Mike Ross and if you remember he struggled badly with a waning Hayes in the early days. It's a waning Ross now. Time for Moore all things being well in the 6N

  
That sums up the Ireland display.

Whilst I agree that we shouldn't just summarily dirch all the over-30s in the squad, the fact is that these three AIs have nothing riding on them. It was iomportant last year to win as that kept us in the top 8 of the IRB rankings for the RWC 2015 draw. If we had put out a new young team and it had been hammered like this one was, at least we could have gone away and discussed if A or B or C were or were not up to international rugby. All today proved is that an awful lot of players including some who have been on Lions tours are no longer up to international rugby.

I can't remember which politician it was who said of another

FOR GOD'S SAKE GO...

[quote="theslosty"]For me Healy, Marshall, McFadden and Madigan when he came on were the only players who put in something that could be called a performance today.

I know Best hasn't fallen as badly as some but at the start of this year I'd have been able to say with some confidence he was the best hooker in Europe.
I'd consider starting Cronin vs NZ, I believe his explosiveness and support running is something we need but I very much accept it would be a gamble...."

In an omni-shambles of a game today there would be a fair few who could be considered for being dropped, but I'm not getting why you zero in on Best? Best is in great form for Ulster, and last week was one of 2 or 3 of the best players for Ireland. He didn't exactly shine today, but none could have in that dire display. If Ireland are to replace all those who played to Best's standard today, and below, there would be 2 players from todays starting 15 playing against the ABs. What is it exactly that you find fault with? His darts were spot on. Toner fumbled one, and POC had one practically taken out of his hands, but maybe you don't see it that way?

Most depressed I've been after seeing an Irish team play in a long time.
Breakdown was poor, O'Brien didn't seem to even try and disrupt aus ball.
Lineout was poor, considering a 6 11 guy and POC were 4 and 5.
Scrum was poor, Ross's age is showing, plus Toner's stick insect figure offers nothing in this area.
Attack was poor, the basics of passing in front of the receiver, and simple catching was upsetting to watch.
Defense was in the worst state I've seen it in a long time.Making average wing Cummins look like the best thing since sliced pan, when realistically he is no better then the likes of Trimble.
I feel that we can no longer say these players are under performing and maybe they just aren't good enough for the international game.
I hope I'm wrong, but Schmidt has a mammoth task ahead of him, if he wants to turn this pathetic team into contenders to lift the RWC.

But Kia you learn less about the young lads if they are all thrown in together. A better way to word that is that it is harder to judge as there are more variables with a bevvy of unknowns. We have blooded a new 3, two new 10's (to a signifcant degree probably after next week) and a new 12. 

We will see what lessons joe has learned when we see the squad for the 6N. He may have to learn that some of the guys he knows can do his thing at provincial level can't bring it to international but he needs to be given the opportunity to learn that

Haven't Jackson , Madigan, archer and Marshall already played for Ireland, hardly blooded

I would seriously question your definition of experience then ME. If they aren't being blooded I'm curious as to what point they became regulars

They have all started for Ireland previously (bar Archer). I didn't say they were regulars but I wouldn't imply they were complete rookies either..

That really was depressing.

I think all the more so because of my hopes that things would be better than last season. I don't understand it as they played like men who were not happy and yet all the buzz coming from the camp seems to suggest that they are happy.

Individual errors, systems failures, poor desicions from very unexpected quarters.

One thing I was wondering, does anyone think it was a deliberate ploy to use Marshall as a decoy in almost every move?

HOf course they are rookies. 

Jackson has 4 caps (iirc he didn't get off the bench in 1 US test)
Marshall has 4 caps (2 of which he didn't finish)
Madigan has 4 aswell I think which he has played 2 different positions and only 2 starts.
Can't say about Archer in fairness.

Jackson has never face a 4N team and for the others today was their first. I would say your a rookie until you have about 10 caps 

MrsP

Given that our best play game from giving him the ball I found that tactic ridiculous. We are suffering from 'Give  the ball to BOD' syndrome and we have been for years

Fair enough, but they weren't blooded and a couple have played in the 6ns. Regardless the complete lack of cohesion was a concern and the mistakes were school boyish

Standulstermen wrote:But Kia you learn less about the young lads if they are all thrown in together. A better way to word that is that it is harder to judge as there are more variables with a bevvy of unknowns. We have blooded a new 3, two new 10's (to a signifcant degree probably after next week) and a new 12. 

We will see what lessons joe has learned when we see the squad for the 6N. He may have to learn that some of the guys he knows can do his thing at provincial level can't bring it to international but he needs to be given the opportunity to learn that

I agree that you need to keep a core of experienced players Stand. What has been particularly disappointing is that given there is nothing riding on thess games as I said above and that there are a number of those 30+ player who will NOT be around in 2015 (or shouldn't be anyway), that now was a time to try new players. Some of those will fall by the wayside, we have all seen players that week in week out play blinders at provincial RABO level, some of them can even cut the mustard at HEC level but take them onto the international stage and they fall flat on their faces.

A lot of pundits were very confident of Ireland's prospects going into today's game. Australia were having a dire season notwithstading last week's win against Italy. Surely with all the talent at our disposal we could beat them. Instead all that talent was shown today to be fluff with absolutely no substance.

Back in 2008 there were accusations made against Munster players that they did not put in the same shift for Ireland as they did when playing in red. Kidney held that famous / infamous meeting in Enfield. Given how impossible it is to keep a secret in Ireland it was frankly amazing how little of what was said at that actually emerged. But, whatever was said, the results were to be seen on the field of play. Kidney produced a TEAM where everyone in the squad bought into the ethos.

I know Joe S has only been in charge for a few months and managing an international team is a very different beastie to a provincial team where you see the players every day, every week. But these past two games he has picked teams with a very substantial core of players whom he knew. Fifteen out of today's 23-man squad were players who he had coached for the past three years (I am including Sexton in that 15 for obvious reasons). It was the same last week. Go back and have a look at the posts on here about the game against Samoa. Some of the posters were hyper-ventilating in their excitement about the new era that Ireland was now entering. It is very sad to see the wheels come off so soon and so catastrophically.

Somehow, JS's whole edifice fell apart today. Why? What the heck happened out there today? Why were the forwards so poor? Why were the backs so bad? Why was nobody running support lines? Why was there no penetration? Why were the setpieces not working? How many of these players are we regualrly tols are "world-class"? God help us if ANY of those in green today are world class because the whole rugby union industry will collapse if that is the benchmark for top class players.

The whole display was so astoinishingly bad that I was left speechless after the game (actually it didn't take that long - I was stunned by the time we got to half-time).

Anyway, night all - I shall go and curl up and read my book. At least the anticipated excitement levels will materialise.

I know that we don't want to rush Moore but he is badly needed. It's time for him to be starting now if fit and have Fitzpatrick/Ross as backup. Then hopefully Furlong will be ready by this time next year too.

Just so that I don't end on a totally negative note, there is a poster on here who was very critical of DK for the past few years and has been one of the cheer-leaders in the JOe S should be canonised brigade. Back in Feb 2010 justr after we had lost to France in Paris he posted the following on the old BBC 606 site (I will not name him to save his blushes).

The original post was entitled "A New Ireland" and our friend responded thus

Lads. Don’t turn this provincial. The article just correctly stated what the rest of the country was thinking when Deccie took the reigns. Would he hold on to the Old Guard ad-nauseum like that feicer EOS? Would he play boring "grind em down rugby" - like Munster of old? Would he show provincial bias?

Answer is a big NO to all that.

The man is true to his word and has completely changed the 22 and mindset since he started. He has rewarded form and young talent - like no other coach before him. Brought Gaffney in as specialist backs coach. He has appointed two of the best specialist coaches in the World to assist him in attempting to make us a real World power.

I still believe he will. Given the time. Let’s put France behind us, learn the lessons and look forward and rebuild .He will. I admire him so much for what he has done so far. And will NEVER question his integrity.

I’m a huge Deccie fan now. No longer a Deccie doubter when it came to my country. Which I was - before he took the job.

It is true that the future 22 will be made up of a majority of Leinster players. Supplemented by more Ulster players than ever before. That has switched because a lot of that Munster pack have aged and not been properly replaced there yet. He knew that. He coached them.

These things always shift over time. Hate to say it now (not really) - but I posted this provincial representation shift, happening 2 years ago. But Kidney needs our support now more than ever.

Believe!

In Deccie We Trust.

Now to hammer England at Twickers.  



Hand on heart, I sincerely hope that by February 2015 I can say the same - that JS has built a new Ireland.

Kia

The wheels haven't came off for dear sakes. Australia are on a bad run, yes. Were we on a good one? Last I checked we avoided the wooden spoon by points difference. It took us 3 years to get to that level from GS champions. It doesn't turn itself around overnight. 

Yes there is excitement about Schmidt and rightfully so but he has to be allowed to learn from these games. If there are obvious shortcomings (be it in personnel or gameplan) in the AIs that are mirrored throughout the next 6N then be a tad concerned but 1 defeat against a team ranked above us shouldn't be enough to throw the baby out with the bathwater. 

For those saying they can't recall a worse Irish performance I have to confess I am astounded. The defeat to Italy was only in march!!

Indeed stand it was terrible (if you conveniently forget the injuries and bad luck)

It was still worse ME. We have injuries now too.I'm not trying to turn this into a kidney/Schmidt thing. I'm just not trying to be too despondent after 1 (admittedly really poor) loss

Same here as I think its too early to criticize, however the injuries we have now are not as structurally damaging

Welsh fan coming in peace! I seriously thought you guys would beat Oz today (given Wales injuries, even before today, I was/am very doubtful Wales can beat Oz with current cobbled together back line). I did not see your game, but looking at stats on bbc the result seems against the run of play..? Is this how it was? (PS I hate Apple and stupid IS7 - what a load of bummy puke).

I really thought that Redden was deserving of his spot but he has not improved has he. He remains a very good club player but is far from international standard.

Sexton is woefully off form and I think that Jackson or Madigan are the better options now,

Marshall and Earls are the best option for Ireland at 12 - 13 now also I think.

rodders wrote:

Feckless Rogue wrote:McFadden doesn't get enough credit.

McFadden was comfortably our best player and can't be faulted for attitude.

That said I think there is a genuine lack of pace from 13-15 and that we desperately need Zebo, Gilroy and Earls available - maybe Dave Kearney too. The few occaisions we made line breaks there was no support to finish and our outside backs have been skinned too easily over the past 2 weekends. The warning signs were there last week. BOD is shot, Kearney and Bowe look like they are running in treacle at times and McFadden tends to get sucked narrow in defence too. There are real problems to address or NZ will have a field day.....  

McFadden is a much improved player and deserves credit for his efforts.

Jeez your a brave man rodders, I said this during the Lions tour, and a posse of Irishmen chased me all over 606 v2 for the next month.