England Squad for NZ Tour and 6N

First topic message reminder :

And I've posed it in that order for a reason. England have already said that their objective is to win the 6N (with France away first up, that's a pretty big ask...) but thy also have a 3 game tour to NZ coming up in which the first game will be played without the AP finalists.

So the challenge is - how do you put together the 6N squad so that whoever makes the final, you have enough players who've played together by the end of the 6N that England can field a half-decent side with players from the top two sides missing? I suppose the good news is that for once the EPS is a nice mix of players from various teams, but a Saints-Sarries final would be a serious hindrance.

The EPS on 1 Aug looked like this. Who would be your squad? And how would you prepare them?

England senior EPS:

Forwards: David Attwood (Bath Rugby), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Alex Corbisiero (Northampton Saints), Tom Croft (Leicester Tigers), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), Matt Kvesic (Gloucester Rugby), Joe Launchbury (London Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby), Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Billy Vunipola (Saracens), Mako Vunipola (Saracens), David Wilson (Bath Rugby), Tom Wood (Northampton Saints), Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Backs: Chris Ashton (Saracens), Brad Barritt (Saracens), Mike Brown (Harlequins), Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby), Danny Care (Harlequins), Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints), Owen Farrell (Saracens), Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers), Ben Foden (Northampton Saints), Alex Goode (Saracens), Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby), Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby), Christian Wade (London Wasps), Marland Yarde (London Irish), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

England Saxons:

Forwards: Calum Clark (Northampton Saints), Jordan Crane (Leicester Tigers), Paul Doran Jones (Harlequins), Will Fraser (Saracens), James Haskell (London Wasps), Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs), Graham Kitchener (Leicester Tigers), George Kruis (Saracens), Kearnan Myall (London Wasps), David Paice (London Irish), George Robson (Harlequins), Ed Slater (Leicester Tigers), Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks), Thomas Waldrom (Leicester Tigers), Luke Wallace (Harlequins), Rob Webber (Bath Rugby), Nick Wood (Gloucester Rugby)

Backs: Anthony Allen (Leicester Tigers), Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints), Elliot Daly (London Wasps), George Ford (Bath Rugby), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby), Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby), Ugo Monye (Harlequins), Stephen Myler (Northampton Saints), Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs), Charlie Sharples (Gloucester Rugby), Joe Simpson (London Wasps), David Strettle (Saracens), Mathew Tait (Leicester Tigers), Joel Tomkins (Saracens), Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens)

doctor_grey wrote:Backs?  Backs?  We don't need no stinkin' Backs.

Very good  

doctor_grey wrote:Backs?  Backs?  We don't need no stinkin' Backs.

I see Andy Farrell's hacked The Dr's account again!

GeordieFalcon wrote:That is the question isn't it Yappy.
Do you think he was subbed to trial other players and because he was having such a good game he spat his dummy out? Its possible. But why sub him when he was having such a good game?
Who knows...

It may be that he wouldn't be that good at the top level..but no one knows until he's tried. But if he does perform...its yet more options in a pack that appears to be moving forward nicely.

It's a real mystery Geordie.

Personally if he threw his toys out of the pram I still don't think it justifies his treatment, there are plenty of other players who've reacted poorly to getting subbed in front of the tv cameras instead of in their changing rooms and it hasn't effected them.

I can only assume he made a massive mistake in training, or he offended one of the coaches. Perhaps he spoke badly of Callum Clark...

The thing is he has all the attributes to do well at the top level, it's not like he's physically too small, or too slow or too short he's the perfect fit for his position, so I just don't get why he isn't trialled more. Especially when Robson (Garvey's smaller brother), Gaskell (god awful!), Botha (simplest lock around) and Clark get so much time in the Saxons!!!

So true Yappy.

Brookes on the other hand has looked very good in the tight and loose this season - out of interest why hasn't he played more if anyone knows?

Mate even the falcons fans dont know. Deano is puzzling us on many different areas but this is one of the biggest. We know he has been injured quite a bit, but Deano doesnt even tell us about that. Its just total silence. When he has played he has been very impressive, both in the tight and rampaging in the loose. But he's only played a few times.

As per Calum Clark, id rather our Mark Wilson play ahead of him...he's a crackin player.

yappysnap wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:That is the question isn't it Yappy.
Do you think he was subbed to trial other players and because he was having such a good game he spat his dummy out? Its possible. But why sub him when he was having such a good game?
Who knows...

It may be that he wouldn't be that good at the top level..but no one knows until he's tried. But if he does perform...its yet more options in a pack that appears to be moving forward nicely.

It's a real mystery Geordie.

Personally if he threw his toys out of the pram I still don't think it justifies his treatment, there are plenty of other players who've reacted poorly to getting subbed in front of the tv cameras instead of in their changing rooms and it hasn't effected them.

I can only assume he made a massive mistake in training, or he offended one of the coaches. Perhaps he spoke badly of Callum Clark...

The thing is he has all the attributes to do well at the top level, it's not like he's physically too small, or too slow or too short he's the perfect fit for his position, so I just don't get why he isn't trialled more. Especially when Robson (Garvey's smaller brother), Gaskell (god awful!) , Botha (simplest lock around) and Clark get so much time in the Saxons!!!

See I think Gaskell is a decent player. He's tall, athletic, quick and has got great hands. Unfortunately he is just the very definition of a beanpole. He looks like a strong wind or a particularly psyched up kitten could snap in twain. All he needs to do is pack three to four more stone of bulk and he’d be set.

I just don't think he could manage that Cumbrian, some people struggle with gaining! And when ever i've seen him for Sale or Saxons he's looked useless, the lanky bugger.

And he has stupid hair.

yappysnap wrote:I just don't think he could manage that Cumbrian, some people struggle with gaining! And when ever i've seen him for Sale or Saxons he's looked useless, the lanky bugger.

And he has stupid hair.

Hey! A lot of great players have stupid hair. Half our club for example

The rise of the crazy haircuts is in line with rugby's rising profile, we shouldn't complain, it'd be like my dad's constant protestations of how he can't abide music being played every time the home team score.

Has anyone seen how Elliott Stooke us getting on at Glouc? (He has normal hair but still looks promising!)

Elliott Stooke by all accounts is playing very well...

The International Rugby Board hopes to avoid a repeat of the scenario that will see England face New Zealand with a weakened team next summer.
The first of three Tests between the sides is on 7 June - seven days after the Premiership final at Twickenham.

English players involved in the final will not travel to New Zealand until 1 June and will arrive too late to be considered for selection.

It means England will not field their first XV until the second Test.

Yeah its not a great situation Maesteg..however we've discussed it further up in this thread.

If we have a Sarries v Saints final (just picked those as current 1st and 2nd in league) then we'd be missing the following

Sarries - Farrell, Vunipola x 2, Barritt, Ashton, Goode, Tomkins
Saints - Lawes, Wood, Corbs, Hartley, Foden, Dickson, Burrell (potentially with Englands centre dilemas)

Thats quite a few key personnel.

So the team v NZ for the 1st test would be something like
1 Marler
2 Youngs
3 Cole
4 Launchbury
5 Parling (Though id prefer Attwood or Slater alongside Launchbury)
6 Johnson or Haskell (Though id prefer to see Garvey in there to give us some power-what better chance to try him out)
7 Robshaw
8 Morgan

9 Youngs / Care
10 Burns
11 Yarde
12 Twelvetrees
13 Daly / Joseph/ Trinder / Eastmond / Tuilagi...take your pick
14 Wade
15 Brown

Geordiefalcon I still think that's a pretty good team though that front five is worryingly exactly the same as the one that got dismantled by Wales.

Being brutally honest the Saints absentees would be felt far greater than the Sarries ones.

I agree that the Saints absentees are more critical.

I think removing Parling and adding Attwood or Slater would make a difference...and Garvey on the flank would give us a big boost of power and size.

And whilst trialling people against the AB's is not the way forward...when you have no option but to, then it gives us a chance to see how some fringe players cope against the best.

EDIT: I think this AI really showed me just how vital the lineout is at this level...Youngs needs to be spot on with his throws!

At the moment I think we have to consider it a bad day at the office for Youngs as his lineout stats are pretty good in the league, though i've not watched many games and stats can lie! If he struggles as badly in the 6N Webber could leapfrog him.

Is Webber much better though?

I think its a common factor that bar Hartley and probably Gray...all the other hookers have troubles with their throwing.

GeordieFalcon wrote:I think its a common factor that bar Hartley and probably Gray...all the other hookers have troubles with their throwing.

Given that, as has been mentioned in Youngs case issues with throwing seem to be linked with the stresses induced by scrummaging, would it be worth looking at someone else throwing in? And do opposition packs look to effect a hooker's line out throwing by erm 'maximising' those stresses in the scrum?

Well if he cant cope with the scrum stresses he shouldnt be there. Sorry but this is international rugby...playing for the national team.

We've whinged at times rightfully about Farrells skill level, Crofts physicality etc, and now rightfully Youngs. Is his alround game good enough to start making allowances for him? Im not sure it is.

He messed up in the lineout before his 1st scrum though. While we're on scrums he also messed up the strike in his 1st against NZ as well. Probably a bad day.

Well he's had a couple of bad days with the lineout, but yes lets hope he can sort it out.

Youngs's problem has always been one of consistency in the setpiece from game to game. I've seen him have games where he's hit every jumper, followed by games where he misses 4 or 5 throws. It didn't seem evident at international level, to be fair, but the NZ game was clearly a bad day at the office.

Not sure what he could do to sort it out.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Yeah its not a great situation Maesteg..however we've discussed it further up in this thread.

If we have a Sarries v Saints final (just picked those as current 1st and 2nd in league) then we'd be missing the following

Sarries - Farrell, Vunipola x 2, Barritt, Ashton, Goode, Tomkins
Saints - Lawes, Wood, Corbs, Hartley, Foden, Dickson, Burrell (potentially with Englands centre dilemas)

Thats quite a few key personnel.

So the team v NZ for the 1st test would be something like
1 Marler
2 Youngs
3 Cole
4 Launchbury
5 Parling Attwood
6 Johnson or Haskell
7 Robshaw
8 Morgan

9 Youngs / Care
10 Burns
11 Yarde
12 Twelvetrees
13 Daly / Joseph/ Trinder / Eastmond Tuilagi
14 Wade
15 Brown

I could live with that, given that we'd be missing players from the two strongest teams in the league. For a team missing two past captains (Hartley and Wood), it's first two looseheads, it's first choice 9 and 10 and it's usual first choice 12 and 14, it would actually be a very impressive team to put out.

SLs selections for the 6Ns are crucial. We have already seen that once he has made up his mind for the first game he will stick with them for the rest of the tournament. If Tom Youngs has a bad one in the first match he is likely to stay there. I'd like him to give Webber a go. He will be stronger in the scrum imo. Burrell must be given a go too. We need to see if he can bring his excellent AP form to the test arena. Tomkins is still in RL mode I'm afraid. Clearly has much more to learn about Union

The "stresses" thing with Youngs was something that effected him after his switch to hooker. He has a long standing bad back which would tighten after lots of scummaging and make throwing difficult. That seems to have been sorted. He's not had any problems throwing in for a while until he joined up with England and he's played in some pretty big games (Lions, HEC, East Mids derby). A communication problem or an issue with rhythm, I dunno.

I think we should be giving Webber a chance. Need to start putting a squad together and that should include three hookers of quality all with caps.

thomh wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Yeah its not a great situation Maesteg..however we've discussed it further up in this thread.

If we have a Sarries v Saints final (just picked those as current 1st and 2nd in league) then we'd be missing the following

Sarries - Farrell, Vunipola x 2, Barritt, Ashton, Goode, Tomkins
Saints - Lawes, Wood, Corbs, Hartley, Foden, Dickson, Burrell (potentially with Englands centre dilemas)

Thats quite a few key personnel.

So the team v NZ for the 1st test would be something like
1 Marler
2 Youngs
3 Cole
4 Launchbury
5 Parling Attwood
6 Johnson or Haskell
7 Robshaw
8 Morgan

9 Youngs / Care
10 Burns
11 Yarde
12 Twelvetrees
13 Daly / Joseph/ Trinder / Eastmond Tuilagi
14 Wade
15 Brown

I could live with that, given that we'd be missing players from the two strongest teams in the league. For a team missing two past captains (Hartley and Wood), it's first two looseheads, it's first choice 9 and 10 and it's usual first choice 12 and 14, it would actually be a very impressive team to put out.

Nick Cain in the rugby paper wrote that Lancaster needs to kick RFU heads over this fiasco.

He also said that as a bare minimum Lancaster has to insist that the "1st Test" is pluto' down from Test status to non test Saxons v ABs status. Why? Because that is essentially what it is. We should not be fighting Test matches without Test players being available due to scheduling. We would be unecessarily and naively ceding ground and quite possibly confidence and momentum to the ABs. If the ABs then want to field a B side or a Maori side themselves then so be it.

He also cited the example of the French who had to put up with this and suffered for it.

What is more a number of Tests are going to suffer due to the scheduling of the June window which actually prioritises super 15s over Test matches essentially.

I agree 100% and am furious with the RFU and the IRB

Would make sense for it to be the B sides first up. I don't know why we couldn't have started a week later.

We shouldn't be sending the key players over there anyway. We simply won't win in NZ, but we can blood some youngsters and find out just what squad depth we have. Give the Lions a rest and have a look at our fringe players.

1. Vunipola
2. Webber
3. Wilson
4. Attwood
5. Slater
6. Garvey
7. Wood (c)
8. Morgan
9. Care
10. Burns
11. Yarde
12. Burrell
13. Twelvetrees
14. Wade
15. Foden

Bench - Marler, Lindsay, Henry, Lawes, Dickson, Ford, Tait.

We'll find out more that way then if we risk Cole, Corbs, Manu, Launchbury, Robshaw etc. Plus the Lions guys will need a rest not two gruelling summers pre RWC.

Think you've got to give the newer players a chance with the experience though. You can't just throw them to the lions as they may take a battering and take a while to recover. Vunipola may need a rest also seeing as he was a Lion if that's the way you want to go.

Good point on Vunipola. That team isn't short on experience, most of those guys have several seasons of AP rugby under their belts. They just need international game time.

Agree with Sam a fair few players will be in need of a rest anyway. The Lions especially given the likes of Cole and B Youngs were being viewed as tiring at the end of last season prior to the Lions series.

If we were to tour the below players they would have played consecutively tough summers in the lead up to a world cup:

Corbs, M Vunipola, T Youngs, Cole, Parling, B Youngs, Farrell, Tuilagi

Given a fair few of the above guys will be involved in the play-offs for various competitions in addition the 6N, a tour of NZ may be pushing our luck. Personally the only guys from the above I'd tour would be Manu if he returns fit and firing from surgery and Mako as I think game time is key to his development at this stage.

1.Marler, Mako
2.Hartley, Webber
3.Wilson + 2 of Thomas, Doran-Jones, Brookes, etc - Probably the most worrying position on the list without Cole
4.Launchberry, Slater
5.Lawes, Attwood
6.Wood, Haskell
7.Robshaw + one of Kvesic or Fraser
8.Morgan, Billy V

9.Dickson, Care, Robson
10.Burns, Flood, Ford

11.Yarde, May
12.Twelvetrees, Barritt, Eastmond
13.Tuilagi, Daly
14.Wade
15.Brown, Foden + Tait if he can find the form of last season

The above is the sort of squad I'd be looking at for the tour as a whole but given the situation with the first test a wider squad may be needed.

formerly known as Sam wrote:We shouldn't be sending the key players over there anyway. We simply won't win in NZ, but we can blood some youngsters and find out just what squad depth we have. Give the Lions a rest and have a look at our fringe players.

...

7. Wood (c)

...

We'll find out more that way then if we risk Cole, Corbs, Manu, Launchbury, Robshaw etc. Plus the Lions guys will need a rest not two gruelling summers pre RWC.

Agree with your general point. Cole in particular needs a rest at some point. Can't see why Robshaw would need a break more than Wood though. That's already what happened last summer.

I don't know who to be angry with.

The IRB say all these schedules were set in stone years ago. If so, then why did no-one notice this conflict until recently?

They also say there is some confusion over when the international window starts. The IRB is in control of that decision so surely they can explain who was right and who was wrong.

If I had bought tickets to this first Test on the basis that I'd see two first choice teams go head to head, then I'd be a bit miffed.

formerly known as Sam wrote:We shouldn't be sending the key players over there anyway. We simply won't win in NZ, but we can blood some youngsters and find out just what squad depth we have. Give the Lions a rest and have a look at our fringe players.

1. Vunipola
2. Webber
3. Wilson
4. Attwood
5. Slater
6. Garvey
7. Wood (c)
8. Morgan
9. Care
10. Burns
11. Yarde
12. Burrell
13. Twelvetrees
14. Wade
15. Foden

Bench - Marler, Lindsay, Henry, Lawes, Dickson, Ford, Tait.

We'll find out more that way then if we risk Cole, Corbs, Manu, Launchbury, Robshaw etc. Plus the Lions guys will need a rest not two gruelling summers pre RWC.

Given the media obsession with putting him down and talking up his possible replacements for captain and 7 and how he really disliked being made to rest last summer, I think Robshaw will be pushing hard to insist on touring NZ.

Thomh, more the risk of Robshaw getting injured. Not sold on him as a captain but he has been excellent for England and against the big teams he is a thorn in the side and we need him at the RWC. Wood, well I think he plays well for Saints and just above average for England, needs to prove he's worthy of a spot of the explosive Croft, he natural 7 Kvesic or the more physical Fearns/Haskell/Garvey. I do rate him as a captain though.

Do people think Vunipola is ahead of Marler...ive really been impressed with him and think hes ahead of Mako at the moment.

Sam do you really think Garvey would be remotely considered  

I think he should be, Lancaster hmm maybe not. We'll probably get Calum Clark instead.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Thomh, more the risk of Robshaw getting injured. Not sold on him as a captain but he has been excellent for England and against the big teams he is a thorn in the side and we need him at the RWC. Wood, well I think he plays well for Saints and just above average for England, needs to prove he's worthy of a spot of the explosive Croft, he natural 7 Kvesic or the more physical Fearns/Haskell/Garvey. I do rate him as a captain though.

Interesting. For me Wood is one of the most consistently excellent players England have. The pack as a whole suffered from not having an 8 in the Six Nations, but Wood's own performance was still very good. I would have him shading Croft for tactical reasons and well ahead of Kvesic for every reason at the moment.

Forget Croft. He was a wing-hanging lightweight. When playing people like Alberts and DuPlessis you need all hands to the pump. No good going up against the boks or Nz with only 7 forwards.

thomh wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:Thomh, more the risk of Robshaw getting injured. Not sold on him as a captain but he has been excellent for England and against the big teams he is a thorn in the side and we need him at the RWC. Wood, well I think he plays well for Saints and just above average for England, needs to prove he's worthy of a spot of the explosive Croft, he natural 7 Kvesic or the more physical Fearns/Haskell/Garvey. I do rate him as a captain though.

Interesting. For me Wood is one of the most consistently excellent players England have. The pack as a whole suffered from not having an 8 in the Six Nations, but Wood's own performance was still very good. I would have him shading Croft for tactical reasons and well ahead of Kvesic for every reason at the moment.

Agreed. SL made a huge error by not playing a proper no8 in 6Ns. Hopefully he has learned a lesson. In fact it bordered on the arrogant by thinking that he could play anybody and still beat good sides. It was annoyingly dumb.

Well it was a lesson learnt. People did say what about Wood at 8...was discussed alot on here.

The 3 prominent flankers were given a shot and it didnt work.

Hopefully we will never have that problem again with Ben Morgan and Billy Vunipola.

Yarde's looking doubtful now for the 6Ns so I hope May gets a chance.

SS News reckons he is out for 14 weeks, which is what? March? From that you could pretty much rule him out if the 6N.

Better play Wade then. What. A. Shame.

Would prefer Wade to have a go at right wing and May left. I know people say wings should be able to play both sides but surely it's easier to bring them into the most familiar position as possible. I also don't think Ashton has shown enough in recent games to keep hold of the shirt.

May can also do the Lancaster 2nd fullback thing whilst simultaneously being an actual winger

It's all our dreams come true at once.

Can members of the May fan club explain to me why he is rated so highly?

Because he can tackle and is actually quick.

He's very quick and can score some speed and footwork based tries that nobody can. Towards the end of last season and start of this one he was out of form but he seems to have found some

Fast, good under the high ball, decent defence, great step, good finisher. Personally thought he would have been ahead of Yarde to start with. Exciting player to me.