England Squad for NZ Tour and 6N

First topic message reminder :

And I've posed it in that order for a reason. England have already said that their objective is to win the 6N (with France away first up, that's a pretty big ask...) but thy also have a 3 game tour to NZ coming up in which the first game will be played without the AP finalists.

So the challenge is - how do you put together the 6N squad so that whoever makes the final, you have enough players who've played together by the end of the 6N that England can field a half-decent side with players from the top two sides missing? I suppose the good news is that for once the EPS is a nice mix of players from various teams, but a Saints-Sarries final would be a serious hindrance.

The EPS on 1 Aug looked like this. Who would be your squad? And how would you prepare them?

England senior EPS:

Forwards: David Attwood (Bath Rugby), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Alex Corbisiero (Northampton Saints), Tom Croft (Leicester Tigers), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), Matt Kvesic (Gloucester Rugby), Joe Launchbury (London Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby), Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Billy Vunipola (Saracens), Mako Vunipola (Saracens), David Wilson (Bath Rugby), Tom Wood (Northampton Saints), Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Backs: Chris Ashton (Saracens), Brad Barritt (Saracens), Mike Brown (Harlequins), Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby), Danny Care (Harlequins), Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints), Owen Farrell (Saracens), Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers), Ben Foden (Northampton Saints), Alex Goode (Saracens), Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby), Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby), Christian Wade (London Wasps), Marland Yarde (London Irish), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

England Saxons:

Forwards: Calum Clark (Northampton Saints), Jordan Crane (Leicester Tigers), Paul Doran Jones (Harlequins), Will Fraser (Saracens), James Haskell (London Wasps), Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs), Graham Kitchener (Leicester Tigers), George Kruis (Saracens), Kearnan Myall (London Wasps), David Paice (London Irish), George Robson (Harlequins), Ed Slater (Leicester Tigers), Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks), Thomas Waldrom (Leicester Tigers), Luke Wallace (Harlequins), Rob Webber (Bath Rugby), Nick Wood (Gloucester Rugby)

Backs: Anthony Allen (Leicester Tigers), Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints), Elliot Daly (London Wasps), George Ford (Bath Rugby), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby), Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby), Ugo Monye (Harlequins), Stephen Myler (Northampton Saints), Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs), Charlie Sharples (Gloucester Rugby), Joe Simpson (London Wasps), David Strettle (Saracens), Mathew Tait (Leicester Tigers), Joel Tomkins (Saracens), Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens)

Well if he's picked we'll see what he can do.

Unless we fix the centres, little tbh, maybe Wade and May could make a bit off brown's counters or running it back but we do need to use our wings more in open play

You'd think he would have to be involved in or around the squad now although it wouldn't be that surprising to see Wade out on the left and Foden covering wing and full back from the bench.

The only thing I require from an England winger right now is (1) they're a winger and (2) they're not injured. Just hope Yarde's not going to do a JS-D.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Would make sense for it to be the B sides first up. I don't know why we couldn't have started a week later.

Now now; lets not have any double standards here just because some of your first choice internationals are missing. They know what their contracts say remember and I'm sure you'll be happy that they honour them.

 

Quite. And it would make sense if this were an arranged Saxons game rather than full international. I understand why some players aren't going to be available and so would the RFU hence my confusion.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Fast, good under the high ball, decent defence, great step, good finisher. Personally thought he would have been ahead of Yarde to start with. Exciting player to me.

Add in good hands and passing to that as well. Plus he reads the game very well from his time playing in various positions.

Real shame about Yarde though. Wade, Yarde and May would be a cracking three wings to have in the EPS but as long as Ashton is in the squad I can see him being picked by SL despite him not looking international class for 18 months now.

Yeah I think you're on to something there - it's all in the planning I guess

fa0019 wrote:It wasn't a blip by Youngs... its a pattern.

2013 6N - England have the worst retention rate in lineouts out of all 6 sides. England got smashed in scrum by Wales... Marler & Cole are half decent scrummagers.

2013 Lions tour - next to Adam Jones and vs. the worst scrum in 6N & RC combined. Lineout did ok but only other option was a Best in worst form of life and Hibbard who couldn't hit a barn door all tour.

2013 AIs -  Was turned over in lineout constantly vs. AUS. When Hartley came on England all a sudden looked smooth. When he came on vs. ABs he lost 4 lineouts in a row, was turned over once and the scrum started to creak (all in 20 mins).

You hear it all the time... oh but look at his work off the ball and in the ruck. People said the same about Lee Mears. But if they can't hit their targets and can't hold a scrum then all that ruck work is pointless as ENG will never get the ball. If ENG were to reach the RWC final in 2015 what are the chances they face NZ or SA? Almost guaranteed.... so given those teams have very strong packs then its a waste of time to say, oh but against AUS he can hold his own.

The guy has been a hooker for only a few years I know its harsh.. but this is test rugby. You can't have sentiments at the highest level. Until he can hit 19/20 game upon game then all his ruck work is worthless. His appearance literally cost England the game.

Some people really haven't got a clue, i swear some of you would make the folks that sack and hire football managers look like they had a clue!

A lineout isn't about 1 person! A scrum isn't about 1 person!

2013 6N- Marler wasn't a half decent scrummager, in fact people were still calling for him to be dropped.

2013 NZ - So it was Youngs who lost the 4 lineouts, nothing to do with the jumpers, the lineout caller? To say he cost us the game is pathetic! i mean could you not see any of the other stuff? static forwards etc defensive line had gone to pot.

nathan wrote:2013 NZ - So it was Youngs who lost the 4 lineouts, nothing to do with the jumpers, the lineout caller? To say he cost us the game is pathetic! i mean could you not see any of the other stuff? static forwards etc defensive line had gone to pot.

I wouldn't go as far to say he lost us the game but for me there is no doubt we struggled in that area once he was introduced and most of that points to him being the culprit. I'm not saying he is not worth persevering with but I think it's been shown that his throwing can be an issue and he's not as strong in the set piece as some of his larger rivals. I admit that he offers some very good things in the loose but for me he's currently not strong as I would like in the fundamentals of his position and I personally rate those attributes as being more important for a hooker. Think his throwing will improve with experience (wasn't Webber's throwing hit and miss in his early days at Wasps?).

B91212 wrote:

nathan wrote:2013 NZ - So it was Youngs who lost the 4 lineouts, nothing to do with the jumpers, the lineout caller? To say he cost us the game is pathetic! i mean could you not see any of the other stuff? static forwards etc defensive line had gone to pot.

I wouldn't go as far to say he lost us the game but for me there is no doubt we struggled in that area once he was introduced and most of that points to him being the culprit. I'm not saying he is not worth persevering with but I think it's been shown that his throwing can be an issue and he's not as strong in the set piece as some of his larger rivals. I admit that he offers some very good things in the loose but for me he's currently not strong as I would like in the fundamentals of his position and I personally rate those attributes as being more important for a hooker. Think his throwing will improve with experience (wasn't Webber's throwing hit and miss in his early days at Wasps?).

As was Hartley's in his early days. The majority of hookers have some tough games in that area when under pressure in their early days. Given Youngs has thrown well for the Tigers this season (88% success at the line-out I believe?) he's definitely worth persevering with IMO. You only have to go back to the summer when he was being lauded for his performances with the Lions!

It's one of the odd parts of the game similar to place kicking in that when it does go wrong it's there for everyone to see. In other parts of the game mistakes or poor performances can be hidden a bit more.

I also think Webber needs to be given game time at some point given his performances in the Jeff this season and his physicality in defence. Hooker is a very key position for a side that relies on their pack and the set piece so we need to build real depth there as soon as possible.

Stunning game from Kitchener calling the lineout and covering an awful lot of ground tonight vs Glaws. Called Gibson up for a couple of steals as well.

Tom Youngs hit his jumper with every throw as well.

Kitchener was very good, he was really quick when he got going and his hands were good to get the ball away.

Thought Flood won the fly-half duel comfortably, he challenged the line and provided and got his hands free for the runners coming from deep.

B91212 wrote:

nathan wrote:2013 NZ - So it was Youngs who lost the 4 lineouts, nothing to do with the jumpers, the lineout caller? To say he cost us the game is pathetic! i mean could you not see any of the other stuff? static forwards etc defensive line had gone to pot.

I wouldn't go as far to say he lost us the game but for me there is no doubt we struggled in that area once he was introduced and most of that points to him being the culprit. I'm not saying he is not worth persevering with but I think it's been shown that his throwing can be an issue and he's not as strong in the set piece as some of his larger rivals. I admit that he offers some very good things in the loose but for me he's currently not strong as I would like in the fundamentals of his position and I personally rate those attributes as being more important for a hooker. Think his throwing will improve with experience (wasn't Webber's throwing hit and miss in his early days at Wasps?).

But didn't Parling come on at the same time as T. Youngs?

oh and sorry fa, wasn't meant to sound such an arse. been a bad day!

In the build up to last nights game Tom Youngs talked about lineout structure which was elaborated on by Ben Kay (who had introduced it way back when to Tigers and England). 6 calls at any lineout, 2 depending on the type of lineout called and 4 "get out" calls. The final decision being made only when the line is formed. Given Youngs missed considerable amounts of training to be with his heavily pregnant wife and new born baby during the AIs the communication required for the lineout to function probably wasn't there.

I mean six calls including two constantly varying per lineout, you need to be on your game in training if your going to shine in the game.

nathan wrote:

fa0019 wrote:It wasn't a blip by Youngs... its a pattern.

2013 6N - England have the worst retention rate in lineouts out of all 6 sides. England got smashed in scrum by Wales... Marler & Cole are half decent scrummagers.

2013 Lions tour - next to Adam Jones and vs. the worst scrum in 6N & RC combined. Lineout did ok but only other option was a Best in worst form of life and Hibbard who couldn't hit a barn door all tour.

2013 AIs -  Was turned over in lineout constantly vs. AUS. When Hartley came on England all a sudden looked smooth. When he came on vs. ABs he lost 4 lineouts in a row, was turned over once and the scrum started to creak (all in 20 mins).

You hear it all the time... oh but look at his work off the ball and in the ruck. People said the same about Lee Mears. But if they can't hit their targets and can't hold a scrum then all that ruck work is pointless as ENG will never get the ball. If ENG were to reach the RWC final in 2015 what are the chances they face NZ or SA? Almost guaranteed.... so given those teams have very strong packs then its a waste of time to say, oh but against AUS he can hold his own.

The guy has been a hooker for only a few years I know its harsh.. but this is test rugby. You can't have sentiments at the highest level. Until he can hit 19/20 game upon game then all his ruck work is worthless. His appearance literally cost England the game.

Some people really haven't got a clue, i swear some of you would make the folks that sack and hire football managers look like they had a clue!

A lineout isn't about 1 person! A scrum isn't about 1 person!

2013 6N- Marler wasn't a half decent scrummager, in fact people were still calling for him to be dropped.

2013 NZ - So it was Youngs who lost the 4 lineouts, nothing to do with the jumpers, the lineout caller? To say he cost us the game is pathetic! i mean could you not see any of the other stuff? static forwards etc defensive line had gone to pot.

Sorry, just to have a knee jerk reaction to your knee jerk reaction, your assertion that Marler "wasn't a half-decent scrummager" in the 2013 6N is utter utter Love sacks. In that match he did not adapt to Jones well at all (at that time Jones was largely seen as the best TH in the world), but to imply that is just cowpat

Sorry guys but can people tell me who now is potentially missing from the 6n already.

Yarde
Croft
Tomkins
Corbs - Probably with his current injury form
Tuilagi

Any ive missed?

I know the long form / eps disagreement armistice thingy is forever an ongoing balls-up in what ever guise you call it, so i'll mention it only in passing.

England wingers fit and internationally credible; Wade, Ashton, Ojo, May.

Others; Thompstone, Benjamin, Nowell, Eastmond (does he still play union?) Banahan. Fullbacks who could play wing; Watson and Foden. Not Strettle.

Anyone else?

Woodward has been on Twitter again. He saw Jonny May playing and wants him tried at 13 as soon as possible.

After the Wales v Australia game, he's again arguing for an overhaul of our back line options. Here's his suggestion:

https://twitter.com/CliveWoodward/status/406863546472214528

Watson , Wade , May, Farrell , Yarde , Cipriani , Foden

kingelderfield wrote:I know the long form / eps disagreement armistice thingy is forever an ongoing balls-up in what ever guise you call it, so i'll mention it only in passing.

England wingers fit and internationally credible; Wade, Ashton, Ojo, May.

Others; Thompstone, Benjamin, Nowell, Eastmond (does he still play union?) Banahan. Fullbacks who could play wing; Watson and Foden. Not Strettle.

Anyone else?

Foden is injured

Rugby Fan wrote:Woodward has been on Twitter again. He saw Jonny May playing and wants him tried at 13 as soon as possible.

After the Wales v Australia game, he's again arguing for an overhaul of our back line options. Here's his suggestion:

https://twitter.com/CliveWoodward/status/406863546472214528

Watson , Wade , May,  Farrell , Yarde , Cipriani , Foden

I must have another word with him;

Youngs, Flood, Ojo, Twelvetrees, Burrell, Wade, Brown

Care, Eastmond, May

Foden is out for 12 weeks so that means he will be ruled out until the end of February/ start of March. That means he is going to miss the games against France (1st of Feb), Scotland (8th of Feb) and Ireland (22nd of Feb), which probably rules him out of the tournament. God help us if Brown gets injured. I'm not one for throwing toys out of the pram, but this is getting ridiculous.

Lets keep our fingers crossed for Wade aswell - he went over on his ankle yesterday scan tomorrow. 

You're kidding?!?

So that's a potential back three of:

11. Chris Ashton
14. Mike Brown
15. Alex Goode

 

Cumbrian wrote:So that's a potential back three of:

11. Chris Ashton
14. Mike Brown
15. Alex Goode

 

I beg not!

Wings - May, Wade, Sharples plus one of Nowell, Ojo or Ashton
Full backs - Brown, Tait

With Yarde and Foden out the above are the players I'd be looking at for the EPS. Really hope that Tait can refind the form of last season when he returns as he'd offer a great back-up to Brown. Harsh on Goode I accept but I want us to see real pace in the back three again and he doesn't offer that.

Time to bring monye back. Banahan too. Only SL has a thing against both I think.

Monye is injured for about 8 weeks minimum

kingelderfield wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:Woodward has been on Twitter again. He saw Jonny May playing and wants him tried at 13 as soon as possible.

After the Wales v Australia game, he's again arguing for an overhaul of our back line options. Here's his suggestion:

https://twitter.com/CliveWoodward/status/406863546472214528

Watson , Wade , May,  Farrell , Yarde , Cipriani , Foden

I must have another word with him;

Youngs, Flood, Ojo, Twelvetrees, Burrell, Wade, Brown

Care, Eastmond, May

Has Woodward gone literally mad?

Still don't understand why Danny Care is 3rd choice 9. He's been consistently better than Youngs and Dickson all year, behind a pack that is usually going backwards.

mid_gen wrote:Still don't understand why Danny Care is 3rd choice 9. He's been consistently better than Youngs and Dickson all year, behind a pack that is usually going backwards.

Care has been inconsistent for England, though that may be because of uncertainty about when he will next play... he's often had the look of a man who'strying too hard. It would be interesting to see what would happen if Lancaster backed him for a series and gave him the confidence just to play his natural game (though I don't think it will happen).

Given England's issues in finding a creative midfield, I think there's a case to be made for Care. Of all our top class 9s, he is the one who is most able to run a game in the style of a French 9. If England gave him free rein, he could provide the spark to get a backline of Farrell, [insert 12 of choice here] and Tulagi moving - provided he was given a long enough run to settle.

By the way, yesterday's Falcons-Quins game marked the Premiership debut of Sam Stuart, who replaced Care from the bench for the last 15 minutes and produced some impressive plays of his own. Stuart has had an horrendous couple of years in which he injured both knees, but looks like he might finally be able to show whether he can deliver on his promise. One to watch for 2019.

Its not hard to look impressive against us mind Poorfour.

So at the moment for the 6n we will be without:

Foden
Tuilagi
Yarde
Tomkins
Croft (Season)

Possibly - Corbs depending on his ongoing injury issues.

Poorfour wrote:

mid_gen wrote:Still don't understand why Danny Care is 3rd choice 9. He's been consistently better than Youngs and Dickson all year, behind a pack that is usually going backwards.

Care has been inconsistent for England, though that may be because of uncertainty about when he will next play... he's often had the look of a man who'strying too hard. It would be interesting to see what would happen if Lancaster backed him for a series and gave him the confidence just to play his natural game (though I don't think it will happen).

Given England's issues in finding a creative midfield, I think there's a case to be made for Care. Of all our top class 9s, he is the one who is most able to run a game in the style of a French 9. If England gave him free rein, he could provide the spark to get a backline of Farrell, [insert 12 of choice here] and Tulagi moving - provided he was given a long enough run to settle.

By the way, yesterday's Falcons-Quins game marked the Premiership debut of Sam Stuart, who replaced Care from the bench for the last 15 minutes and produced some impressive plays of his own. Stuart has had an horrendous couple of years in which he injured both knees, but looks like he might finally be able to show whether he can deliver on his promise. One to watch for 2019.

You have summed it up very well. Care has been excellent at club level but hasn't shown the same form at international level.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Its not hard to look impressive against us mind Poorfour.

So at the moment for the 6n we will be without:

Foden
Tuilagi
Yarde
Tomkins
Croft (Season)

Possibly - Corbs depending on his ongoing injury issues.

Reading your list I feel a strange pull from HQ to get these lads 'healed' as quickly as possible. My knee-jerk reaction is to sit Foden and Tuilagi through the 6 Nations and commit to it now. If we rush these guys back now, they might not be walking by 2015. Always seems we rush guys back from injury. This is Tuilagi's first serious injury, right? And Foden's second in two seasons.

(Not sure of the details of the injuries to Yarde and Tomkins. Also need an update about Corbs)

doctor_grey wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Its not hard to look impressive against us mind Poorfour.

So at the moment for the 6n we will be without:

Foden
Tuilagi
Yarde
Tomkins
Croft (Season)

Possibly - Corbs depending on his ongoing injury issues.

Reading your list I feel a strange pull from HQ to get these lads 'healed' as quickly as possible.  My knee-jerk reaction is to sit Foden and Tuilagi through the 6 Nations and commit to it now.  If we rush these guys back now, they might not be walking by 2015.  Always seems we rush guys back from injury.  This is Tuilagi's first serious injury, right?  And Foden's second in two seasons.  

(Not sure of the details of the injuries to Yarde and Tomkins.  Also need an update about Corbs)

Tomkins is a knee problem (unspecified in the BBC report but due to be out for 3 months). Yarde is a ruptured  hip tendon - I believe he has already been under the knife.

Tuilagi of course missed chunks of the last 6N - it was a hamstring issue if I remember correctly, but agreed nothing on the level of the ruptured pec. What does concern me about that is that it may be linked to the injury he got on the lions. The lions medics have always had a good rep but there are times when you begin to wonder.

I havent seen any more details than a small comment here but Brown may have a rib problem. In a funny way I was thinking that if there is an injury it would heal in plenty of time for the 6N but at least give him a break/ stop him from getting injured elsewhere in the meantime.

Will Fraser unfortunately got a nasty injury vs Sale. I expect he'll be out for quite a long time too.

I guess with all these current injuries we could be seeing something like this in the 6N -

Vaunipola
Hartley
Cole
Lawes
Launchbury
Wood
Robshaw
B.Vaunipola
B.Youngs
Farrell
Wade
Barritt
Twelvetrees
Ashton
Brown

Bench -
Marler, T.Youngs, Wilson, Attwood, Ben Morgan, Flood, Care, Eastmond??

Looks likely propdavid. Though I am surprised you don't think Lancaster will pick Dickson.

Plus I think Lancaster might promote Ford.

I know its been mentioned in the club pages but Wade is having a scan today after doing his ankle on Saturday.

Its actually all a bit depressing. In Wade's absence would it be too early to think about picking Watson? Who else is there on the radar.

Jonny May will probably move into contention.

beshocked wrote:Jonny May will probably move into contention.

Yes of course . Best not mention him too loudly or else the curse of JSD may strike.....

Is Sharples injured still?
I agree that May could be next on the radar.
below that you are looking at Strettle and Ugo Monye again in the Saxons I think.

If Biggs hadn't have left bath then he could have been in with a shout.

It's out of left field, but I would really like to see Jack Nowell be called up (if Wade is out). I know he is inexperienced, but he has something about him that makes me suspect that he would take to international rugby like a duck to water.

Saying that, there are a number of options that probably deserve a chance before him and I'd forgive you if you thought I was talking baloney.

Strettle, Nowell and Watson are going to get game time assuming they don't lose a leg up until February.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Strettle, Nowell and Watson are going to get game time assuming they don't lose a leg up until February.

With the way things are going, can we really rule this out? It wouldn't surprise me to see somebody end up with a 'comedy' injury at this point, like they were doing the decorating and their foot got stuck in a paint can or something.

In seriousness, we’ve got four brutal weekends of HC rugby coming up and a fairly frantic calendar over the Christmas period. The potential for even greater injury is there.

True. Sometimes these things can be turned to an advantage. Players suddenly get a chance and take it and the rest is history. Fingers crossed.

Cumbrian wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Strettle, Nowell and Watson are going to get game time assuming they don't lose a leg up until February.

With the way things are going, can we really rule this out?   It wouldn't surprise me to see somebody end up with a 'comedy' injury at this point, like they were doing the decorating and their foot got stuck in a paint can or something.  

In seriousness, we’ve got four brutal weekends of HC rugby coming up and a fairly frantic calendar over the Christmas period.  The potential for even greater injury is there.

Speak for yourself - I wouldn't say that the HC is going to be as brutal for my team as much as others..... 

The brutal games I am looking forward to are Saracens vs Leicester and Toulouse vs Saracens. Two crackers. 

Currently injured EPS and Saxons players:

Forwards

A Corbisiero
G Parling
T Croft
W Fraser
M Vunipola

Backs

M Yarde
C Wade
J Tomkins
M Tuilagi
B Barritt
U Monye
B Foden
M Tait
G Lowe

Any more for any more?! I make that 14 players.

Real shame for both Yarde and Wade but having Foden and Tuilagi out as well are real hammer blows. Mako and Brad Barritt are likely to be back for the 6N but that doesn't offer much comfort.

Those in contention as replacements in matchday XXIII:

(12/13) - K Eastmond - J Joseph - H Trinder - L Burrell

(11/14) - J May - C Sharples - J Nowell - D Strettle

(1) - N Wood - M Mullan

(5) - D Attwood - E Slater - G Kitchener

Just a quick assessment of where we may need cover and who the leading contenders are so far on the periphery of the matchday squad. Wing/Centre seem to be the most contentious areas and this needs to be looked at in the context of a back-line unit rather than individual players. For instance I don't see the point in selecting Barritt at 12 with Trinder outside him. Trinder needs to see the ball not get roped into clearing out Barritt's quasi-flanker carries.

This is what i'd like to see providing they actually stay fit: 10. T Flood 11. J May 12. B Twelvetrees 13. H Trinder 14. J Nowell 15. M Brown

To me that has a nice balance about it with some pace. I'd like to see Burns but in a young and inexperienced backline Toby Flood could be really crucial, plus he is playing well for Tigers currently.

I think Lancs and Gen. Farrell are more likely to go with: 10. O Farrell 11. M Brown 12. B Barritt 13. L Burrell 14. D Strettle 15. A Goode. If so i'm likely to boycott the 6N.

No definitive news on Wade yet that I can see unless anyone has heard different