England Squad for NZ Tour and 6N

First topic message reminder :

And I've posed it in that order for a reason. England have already said that their objective is to win the 6N (with France away first up, that's a pretty big ask...) but thy also have a 3 game tour to NZ coming up in which the first game will be played without the AP finalists.

So the challenge is - how do you put together the 6N squad so that whoever makes the final, you have enough players who've played together by the end of the 6N that England can field a half-decent side with players from the top two sides missing? I suppose the good news is that for once the EPS is a nice mix of players from various teams, but a Saints-Sarries final would be a serious hindrance.

The EPS on 1 Aug looked like this. Who would be your squad? And how would you prepare them?

England senior EPS:

Forwards: David Attwood (Bath Rugby), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Alex Corbisiero (Northampton Saints), Tom Croft (Leicester Tigers), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), Matt Kvesic (Gloucester Rugby), Joe Launchbury (London Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby), Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Billy Vunipola (Saracens), Mako Vunipola (Saracens), David Wilson (Bath Rugby), Tom Wood (Northampton Saints), Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Backs: Chris Ashton (Saracens), Brad Barritt (Saracens), Mike Brown (Harlequins), Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby), Danny Care (Harlequins), Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints), Owen Farrell (Saracens), Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers), Ben Foden (Northampton Saints), Alex Goode (Saracens), Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby), Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby), Christian Wade (London Wasps), Marland Yarde (London Irish), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

England Saxons:

Forwards: Calum Clark (Northampton Saints), Jordan Crane (Leicester Tigers), Paul Doran Jones (Harlequins), Will Fraser (Saracens), James Haskell (London Wasps), Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs), Graham Kitchener (Leicester Tigers), George Kruis (Saracens), Kearnan Myall (London Wasps), David Paice (London Irish), George Robson (Harlequins), Ed Slater (Leicester Tigers), Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks), Thomas Waldrom (Leicester Tigers), Luke Wallace (Harlequins), Rob Webber (Bath Rugby), Nick Wood (Gloucester Rugby)

Backs: Anthony Allen (Leicester Tigers), Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints), Elliot Daly (London Wasps), George Ford (Bath Rugby), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby), Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby), Ugo Monye (Harlequins), Stephen Myler (Northampton Saints), Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs), Charlie Sharples (Gloucester Rugby), Joe Simpson (London Wasps), David Strettle (Saracens), Mathew Tait (Leicester Tigers), Joel Tomkins (Saracens), Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens)

Chjw131 wrote:
Just a quick assessment of where we may need cover and who the leading contenders are so far on the periphery of the matchday squad. Wing/Centre seem to be the most contentious areas and this needs to be looked at in the context of a back-line unit rather than individual players. For instance I don't see the point in selecting Barritt at 12 with Trinder outside him. Trinder needs to see the ball not get roped into clearing out Barritt's quasi-flanker carries.

This is what i'd like to see providing they actually stay fit: 10. T Flood 11. J May 12. B Twelvetrees 13. H Trinder 14. J Nowell 15. M Brown

To me that has a nice balance about it with some pace. I'd like to see Burns but in a young and inexperienced backline Toby Flood could be really crucial, plus he is playing well for Tigers currently.

I think Lancs and Gen. Farrell are more likely to go with: 10. O Farrell 11. M Brown 12. B Barritt 13. L Burrell 14. D Strettle 15. A Goode. If so i'm likely to boycott the 6N.

If that backline takes the field for England I'm going to persuade the Mrs we need to go shopping urgently every Saturday afternoon in February

BamBam wrote:

Chjw131 wrote:
Just a quick assessment of where we may need cover and who the leading contenders are so far on the periphery of the matchday squad. Wing/Centre seem to be the most contentious areas and this needs to be looked at in the context of a back-line unit rather than individual players. For instance I don't see the point in selecting Barritt at 12 with Trinder outside him. Trinder needs to see the ball not get roped into clearing out Barritt's quasi-flanker carries.

This is what i'd like to see providing they actually stay fit: 10. T Flood 11. J May 12. B Twelvetrees 13. H Trinder 14. J Nowell 15. M Brown

To me that has a nice balance about it with some pace. I'd like to see Burns but in a young and inexperienced backline Toby Flood could be really crucial, plus he is playing well for Tigers currently.

I think Lancs and Gen. Farrell are more likely to go with: 10. O Farrell 11. M Brown 12. B Barritt 13. L Burrell 14. D Strettle 15. A Goode. If so i'm likely to boycott the 6N.

If that backline takes the field for England I'm going to persuade the Mrs we need to go shopping urgently every Saturday afternoon in February

Yes i'm sure i've got some shelves to put up...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/index.html

Thinly veiled urine take of the land of the long white cloud or is England's only hope to play a bird's team?

Actually probably just a Daily Fail typo.

BamBam wrote:

Chjw131 wrote:
Just a quick assessment of where we may need cover and who the leading contenders are so far on the periphery of the matchday squad. Wing/Centre seem to be the most contentious areas and this needs to be looked at in the context of a back-line unit rather than individual players. For instance I don't see the point in selecting Barritt at 12 with Trinder outside him. Trinder needs to see the ball not get roped into clearing out Barritt's quasi-flanker carries.

This is what i'd like to see providing they actually stay fit: 10. T Flood 11. J May 12. B Twelvetrees 13. H Trinder 14. J Nowell 15. M Brown

To me that has a nice balance about it with some pace. I'd like to see Burns but in a young and inexperienced backline Toby Flood could be really crucial, plus he is playing well for Tigers currently.

I think Lancs and Gen. Farrell are more likely to go with: 10. O Farrell 11. M Brown 12. B Barritt 13. L Burrell 14. D Strettle 15. A Goode. If so i'm likely to boycott the 6N.

If that backline takes the field for England I'm going to persuade the Mrs we need to go shopping urgently every Saturday afternoon in February

I very much hope that neither of those backlines sees the light of day

The Beeb is reporting that Wade could be out for up to 6 months.  

  

Cumbrian wrote:The Beeb is reporting that Wade could be out for up to 6 months.    

One word - begins with F

lostinwales wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:The Beeb is reporting that Wade could be out for up to 6 months.    

One word - begins with F

and rhymes with bad luck...

Well I suppose that mean's they've GOT to bring in some replacements,  I mean 2 of the 3 wingers in the main EPS are injured and one is horribly out of form at international level.

please tell me the EPS is due to be re-jigged!

Cumbrian wrote:The Beeb is reporting that Wade could be out for up to 6 months.    

If that's the case we could be without arguably our four best attacking players in Tuilagi, Yarde, Wade and Croft. Really not good for a side which has struggled to offer noticeable attacking threat for a long time.

Wings - May, Nowell, Sharples, Ashton

Full back - Brown, Tait, Watson

The above would be my latest picks if Wade, Yarde and Foden are all out injured.

How is Nowell playing? I know he has just come off an injury, interested to see how he does this weekend if he starts vs Toulon

I am starting to think that this injury list might be a blessing in disguise - SL will get to test a whole raft of youngsters at a very high level and with little to no pressure or expectation. We will hopefully also get to test them behind a reasonably settled and proficient pack.

That being the case - and with plenty of time in an England camp prior to 6N.
We could see something like -

Care-Farrell-Ashton-Twelvetrees-Burrell-May-Brown

rep: Youngs-Barritt-Flood-Eastmond

SL: would probably still want Goode in there somewhere.
nowell, and Watson are both also playing extremely well - and Joseph looks to be showing a bit of form again for Bath, so maybe that's worth another look.

propdavid_london wrote:I am starting to think that this injury list might be a blessing in disguise - SL will get to test a whole raft of youngsters at a very high level and with little to no pressure or expectation.  We will hopefully also get to test them behind a reasonably settled and proficient pack.  

That being the case - and with plenty of time in an England camp prior to 6N.  
We could see something like -

Care-Farrell-Ashton-Twelvetrees-Burrell-May-Brown

rep: Youngs-Barritt-Flood-Eastmond

SL: would probably still want Goode in there somewhere.
nowell, and Watson are both also playing extremely well - and Joseph looks to be showing a bit of form again for Bath, so maybe that's worth another look.  

The worry many of us have is that we just aren't sure Lancaster will try the youngsters out. A backline such as below is in no way out of question looking at past tendencies:

9.Dickson 10.Farrell 11.Brown 12.Twelvetrees 13.Barritt 14.Ashton 15.Goode

I may take some time away from rugby if we saw the above!

Biggest issue is England's backs, but they have the personnel just not the consistency, an embarrassment of riches.

I think in Brown they have a fabulous attacking 15.

Yarde is also the way forward, Ashton and Flood should go now. With Twelvetrees and Barritt back in the mix things look ok. I believe Farrell is under pressure and i expect to see him benched in the 6 Nations as England must test alternative 9/10 combos….who they should or will be i am not sure.

problem is they don't have time to experiment

6 Nations pressure is huge after failing to win for so long

A 3 match tour to NZ follows and though Lancaster will be forced to experiment in the first game that crucible is hardly the best place to blood new meat

As far as i can see everything still relies on Manu coming back and staying fit. And that pack just getting better.

Gutted about Yarde and Wade. I think we're running out of time to try them out, and if they're up to it, get them settled at this level. Our few creative backs are all getting broken and as much depth as we have in the forwards, we have f-all in the backs.

This is a real injury crisis - but will anything change............

Our game needs to change.

Selection-wise Lancaster has at no time offered a convincing argument to suggest he knows what he's doing with the backs, and that’s when players were available.

Given the complications of an injury crisis, well the poor chap won't know where to start.

Ben Foden - out for around 12 weeks (knee)
Brad Barritt - could be back "late 2013" (foot)
Manu Tuilagi - out until mid-February (chest)
Marland Yarde - out for 14 weeks (hip)
Joel Tomkins - out for three months (knee)
Tom Croft - out for the season (knee)
Geoff Parling - out for 12 weeks (elbow)
Alex Corbisiero - out for unconfirmed period following surgery (knee)
Christian Wade - out for six months (foot)
Mako Vunipola - out for unconfirmed period (knee)

For feks sake someone wake me up in a year's time.

All teams deal with injuries these days. You need the depth to cover it.

This injury situation as dire as it is on the face of it, could be a blessing in disguise. It will force the coaches to blood new players that might not have otherwise been given an opportunity. The upshot will be even more players with test match experience. Leading up to the RWC this can only be a good thing. Yes we might lose a couple of 6Ns games but it it helps us win the RWC then happy days.

Back 3 at the moment is a pretty obvious Brown, Ashton and May for me. Hope it also means that Watson covers from the bench rather than Goode who was obviously brought in to help with 1st receiver but with 36 in the team seems slightly redundant. Will be interesting still who Lancaster goes with at OC. The pack looks pretty definite at the moment, with a couple of coin toss calls.

Its not great, but its not total doom and gloom either.

We know Barritt will be back and Twelvetrees should be fine - fingers crossed.
They'll offer a solid midfield, swapping depending on defence and attack.

Ashton hasnt had much chance to impress...its difficult when theres nothing creative coming your way.

Farrell never gets injured...he'll start, and to be fair to him no other FH looks remotely on form. I hope Burns finds some (and a decent Glos pack) to be the Bench FH.

So that would be:
9 Dickson / Youngs / Care
10 Farrell
11
12 Barritt
13 Twelvetrees
14 Ashton
15 Brown

Leaving just the left wing spot. And you have options like Strettle, Ojo, Elliott, Varndell, Banahan etc.
Im sure we have a good winger ready to go...

EDIT
Ps i dont buy that Lancaster wont try out youngsters...hes proven that he will...and in the AI's he would have played Yarde and Wade but they got injured. He's given Joseph games, etc should others like Daly etc be playing well then they'll get a chance.
I just think he wants players to have played at a consistant level for a season or so before picking them. Players like Launchbury are an exception of course...

Hate to say GF, but isn't Varndell out for the season? It really has to be May.

No probs, i forgot about May actually 7..he should defo be considered.

We certainly have options...

The thing is im becomming more and more convinced its not the indivual players its the system thats the problem attack wise...plus our backline changes constantly due to injuries...theres no consistancy at all.

The Farrell, Twelvetrees, Tomkins combo played their first three games together (Twelvetrees and Tomkins making their first serious international starts) against Australia, Argentina then NZ.
Thats a very raw midfield to tackle those teams and expect wonderful attacking rugby!

GeordieFalcon wrote:No probs, i forgot about May actually 7..he should defo be considered.

We certainly have options...

The thing is im becomming more and more convinced its not the indivual players its the system thats the problem attack wise...plus our backline changes constantly due to injuries...theres no consistancy at all.

The Farrell, Twelvetrees, Tomkins combo played their first three games together (Twelvetrees and Tomkins making their first serious international starts) against Australia, Argentina then NZ.
Thats a very raw midfield to tackle those teams and expect wonderful attacking rugby!

Dont let the Scots and Irish see that...

Ah my mistake i had forgot he had played previously, thought it was only on the Argentina tour he started.

Anyway you get the jist of what i mean...very inexperienced.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Ah my mistake i had forgot he had played previously, thought it was only on the Argentina tour he started.

Anyway you get the jist of what i mean...very inexperienced.

Yes I do and I was probably being a bit mean picking up on that. With all the general BS about the team its worth remembering always how inexperienced by modern standards it is. It is a great deal easier to pick up on the negatives (e.g. the lack of cohesive back play) than the positives (like we lost 2 games only all year - and barring that game we are a very tough team to beat). There is some very good coaching and organising going on even if its mainly restricted to the forwards and defense

Your right.

But i would like to see the likes of Farrell just not being so rigid with the instructions. Follow them, but if standing flatter with create an opportunity and a specifc time then use your intelligence and stand flatter.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Your right.

But i would like to see the likes of Farrell just not being so rigid with the instructions. Follow them, but if standing flatter with create an opportunity and a specifc time then use your intelligence and stand flatter.

And who wouldn't. It is funny as we all say the components are there, and Farrell was playing flatter for the Lions. We also saw a lot more attacking moves in the summer, even if the opposition was the reserve Argentinian side.

Interesting times. Probably good to not have Manu to hide behind either - as he was still making good runs and scoring when he was pretty much the only threat we had out wide.

Yeah we need to see what we have other than Manu.

But id rather not have half the EPS out injured as we currently have.. 

We just need to find a nice balanced Midfield and give them games, combined with Vunipola, Morgan etc blasting holes in and taking us forward.
I think itll be below...but with injuries for the 6n i'd like to see Daly at 13.
10 Farrell
12 Twelvetrees
13 Tuilagi (Daly for 6n)

Would like to see that too GF, but with Daly playing 15 for Wasps, can't see him getting a chance at 13 for England.

I reckon we will see Farrell, 36 and Burrell in midfield possibly Barritt depending on fitness and form

I sadly agree mate, really cant work out why they've switched him to 15.

Probably Farrell, Barritt, Twelvetrees.

It's such a shame Ross Chisholm did his ACL in the JPM 7s or he could be in contention. He's like a faster version of Mike Brown, and looks like him too so Lancaster would get the warm glow of having Brown on the wing and at fullback.

Have I imagined that England requested for Daly to move to 15? When you look at the players at 13 when all fit it makes sense especially as Watson has only really emerged this year.

Same with Tait at 15 for Tigers: they don't need him at 13 because they have Manu, but for England it would be more useful. I'd love to see him get the 23 spot in the 6N

No 7&1/2 wrote:Have I imagined that England requested for Daly to move to 15? When you look at the players at 13 when all fit it makes sense especially as Watson has only really emerged this year.

From what I can recall Daly was referring to Shane Howarth advising him that he'd make a top FB. I'm not sure how much England were complicit in that? Either way it's a silly move. A) Daly wants to play OC and B) We have more than enough FBs.

ChequeredJersey wrote:Same with Tait at 15 for Tigers: they don't need him at 13 because they have Manu, but for England it would be more useful. I'd love to see him get the 23 spot in the 6N

Agreed but is he even back from injury yet?

Plus he's an utterly class 13 at every level he's thus been tested at, looked good there for Baabaas too

Chjw131 wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:Same with Tait at 15 for Tigers: they don't need him at 13 because they have Manu, but for England it would be more useful. I'd love to see him get the 23 spot in the 6N

Agreed but is he even back from injury yet?

No he hasn't returned from injury yet unfortunately. If he can return to the form of last season I'd have him in the EPS as back-up for Brown now Foden is out. May seem harsh on Goode but I really want to see pace in the back 3 again which Tait has in abundance. The speed at which Tait's FB play improved under Geordan Murphy's tutoring last season was brilliant, especially under the high ball and his judgement of when to counter and when to kick.

9.Youngs 10.Farrell 11.May 12.Twelvetrees 13.Trinder/Daly 14.Nowell 15.Brown

21.Care 22.Flood/Burns 23.Daly/Tait

I'd love to see something like the above for the Scotland game. Combined with a strong pack the above could be lethal in attack. Arguably the back three would also be stronger in defence than the one vs NZ given Foden being out of position and Ashton's renowned struggles in that area!

Well its interesting to see that in all the suggestions for the team of the year thread theres barely a mention of an England player, despite losing only two games i think it is in however many games, being No.3 in the rankings...etc

Well im happy with that, let us just jog along under the radar improving the areas we need to.

GF being replaced at No. 3.  

But I take your point. This is still a young side with plenty of growth and they're developing quite nicely. At least in the pack. Mike Brown might appear in a few more teams of the year lists if the backline worked more cohesively. This is where England need to make the most improvement and injuries to more exciting players like Yarde, Tuilagi and Wade are not helping their cause.

Rest assured, you're not slipping under the radar for a home tournament in two years' time, however much you'd like for that to happen.  

Thought we were still at 3..ok 4th.

That's really been the story of Lancaster's tenure. Good team performances, but low on star power. If we'd won a Six Nations, the players might be seen in a different light. We didn't, so they aren't.

Possibly so mate, but i just think its funny when discussing second rows...not a mention of Launchbury who has been outstanding...at 7 not a mention of Mr Consistantly quality Chris Robshaw etc.

But as i said, thats fine, we'll just coast under the radar....

GF / RugbyFan

Robshaw is absolutely the epitome of what you are talking about. Very solid performer, enormous work rate but inherently unflashy and so not an obvious star. Hell, these boards spent half the summer working themselves into a frenzy about Kvesic replacing him by being more of a 'specialist 7'.

I bet when Lancaster picks a team the first two names on the paper ar Robshaw and Wood.

Think the problem with picking England players for a lot of people is that the only real standouts have been Brown (not going to get picked above Folau/Halfpenny and was shunted to wing to cover injuries), Farrell (just not flashy enough and divides opinion even among England fans) and the pack. For me the pack that finished the year (barring Cole who was ok) were all great this year. The problem with picking any of them are they didn't play SA who are seen as THE pack and they came off 2nd best against 'the only game that really counts this year' back in March. The backrow of Wood, Robshaw and Morgan/Vunipola is probably the best balanced in the world for me. I guess this is the problem as mentioned above though that they all compliment each other so well so you don't notice 1 person.

I bet when Lancaster picks a team the first two names on the paper ar Robshaw and Wood..

I agree Dummy half...

GeordieFalcon wrote:Well its interesting to see that in all the suggestions for the team of the year thread theres barely a mention of an England player, despite losing only two games i think it is in however many games, being No.3 in the rankings...etc

Well im happy with that, let us just jog along under the radar improving the areas we need to.

The problem is that several standout players have missed a a lot of game through injury (Corbs),being played out of position (Brown), and/or just have massive competition for their position this year. I'd say our standouts have been:

Corbs - Great for England and massive for the Lions when playing but injured too often. Also big competition from Healy and the Beast.

Launchberry - The closest to a team of the year place IMO but Etzebeth, Whitelock and Retallick amongst others have also been excellent.

Robshaw - Similar to Launchberry with McCaw and Louw excellent in the Rugby Championship, O'Brien stepping up very well for the big games and Hooper really coming into his own throughout the year offering big competition.

Brown - Did a great job out of position on the wing (although he should never have been there) and was our standout back by a mile in the AI's from FB. Folau, Dagg, Le Roux, Halfpenny and more recently even Kearney is pretty big competition though!

The Beast offers competition at LH? Not Ayerza? Or Domingo (injured, true)?

ChequeredJersey wrote:The Beast offers competition at LH? Not Ayerza? Or Domingo (injured, true)?

The Beast has once again been a strong point in what is regarded as one of the top packs in the world. Ayerza is definitely up there though so not sure how I missed that (especially given I'm pretty sure I mentioned him in the team of the year thread!). Probably go 1.Healy 16.Ayerza for a 23 of the year with Corbs just shading Mtawarira for the 3rd spot if we were arguing 'world class' players with the usual top 3 in the world in said position.

Domingo whilst still excellent LH is yet another player (there are an upsetting number of them at the moment) who has been massively hampered by injury and as such I'd have him below Healy, Ayerza, Corbs and Mtwarira at current.