England Squad for NZ Tour and 6N

First topic message reminder :

And I've posed it in that order for a reason. England have already said that their objective is to win the 6N (with France away first up, that's a pretty big ask...) but thy also have a 3 game tour to NZ coming up in which the first game will be played without the AP finalists.

So the challenge is - how do you put together the 6N squad so that whoever makes the final, you have enough players who've played together by the end of the 6N that England can field a half-decent side with players from the top two sides missing? I suppose the good news is that for once the EPS is a nice mix of players from various teams, but a Saints-Sarries final would be a serious hindrance.

The EPS on 1 Aug looked like this. Who would be your squad? And how would you prepare them?

England senior EPS:

Forwards: David Attwood (Bath Rugby), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Alex Corbisiero (Northampton Saints), Tom Croft (Leicester Tigers), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), Matt Kvesic (Gloucester Rugby), Joe Launchbury (London Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby), Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Billy Vunipola (Saracens), Mako Vunipola (Saracens), David Wilson (Bath Rugby), Tom Wood (Northampton Saints), Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Backs: Chris Ashton (Saracens), Brad Barritt (Saracens), Mike Brown (Harlequins), Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby), Danny Care (Harlequins), Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints), Owen Farrell (Saracens), Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers), Ben Foden (Northampton Saints), Alex Goode (Saracens), Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby), Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby), Christian Wade (London Wasps), Marland Yarde (London Irish), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

England Saxons:

Forwards: Calum Clark (Northampton Saints), Jordan Crane (Leicester Tigers), Paul Doran Jones (Harlequins), Will Fraser (Saracens), James Haskell (London Wasps), Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs), Graham Kitchener (Leicester Tigers), George Kruis (Saracens), Kearnan Myall (London Wasps), David Paice (London Irish), George Robson (Harlequins), Ed Slater (Leicester Tigers), Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks), Thomas Waldrom (Leicester Tigers), Luke Wallace (Harlequins), Rob Webber (Bath Rugby), Nick Wood (Gloucester Rugby)

Backs: Anthony Allen (Leicester Tigers), Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints), Elliot Daly (London Wasps), George Ford (Bath Rugby), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby), Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby), Ugo Monye (Harlequins), Stephen Myler (Northampton Saints), Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs), Charlie Sharples (Gloucester Rugby), Joe Simpson (London Wasps), David Strettle (Saracens), Mathew Tait (Leicester Tigers), Joel Tomkins (Saracens), Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens)

This weekend as far as wingers are concerned

Nowell, May and Benjamin have all played well and put their hands up for consideration given Wade & Yarde are injured.

Ashton scored two as well Trev...

GeordieFalcon wrote:Ashton scored two as well Trev...

Ah ok haven't seen that game or reports yet.  

CHARLIE WALKER!!

Not the first time there has been a blindspot over Ashton doing something right (not that I would pick him right now..)

Yes Walker looked good...

LIW, Sarries score lots of tries...and Farrell isnt on the pitch. Does that say something?

As for front row...anyone think Marler is starting to look like Corbs injury problems isnt going to be as huge as we thought.

Bit late coming to this party but with that injury list we do have plenty of options and as mentioned there shouldn't be too much pressure (except the idiotic BBC hype machine and Inverdales calls for Jonny to return!)

Barney McGrew did it wrote:Ben Foden - out for around 12 weeks (knee) Brown, Goode, May
Brad Barritt - could be back "late 2013" (foot) Burrell, Eastmond and twelvetrees
Manu Tuilagi - out until mid-February (chest) Joseph, Trinder, Daily (inj?)
Marland Yarde - out for 14 weeks (hip) May, Sharples, JJ, Banahan, Nowle
Joel Tomkins - out for three months (knee) As Manu
Tom Croft - out for the season (knee) Wood, Robshaw, Fearns, Johnson, Haskell, Garvey
Geoff Parling - out for 12 weeks (elbow) Lawes, Kitchener, Attwood
Alex Corbisiero - out for unconfirmed period following surgery (knee) Marler
Christian Wade - out for six months (foot) As Yarde
Mako Vunipola - out for unconfirmed period (knee) Marler

For feks sake someone wake me up in a year's time.

Things could actually turn out quite well and at least we'd see a few others get a run out.

Sadly i think we have to now belive Brian Smith when corbs knees were described as 'degenerative', i'd love corbs to recover for good but i think we have to get used to life without him and Marler/Vunipola are not bad replacements (but vunipolas out now as well !)

I never ever want to see players injured especially not long term but injuries provide opportunites and with Foden, Wade and Yarde out I sincerely hope Lancaster gives May, Benjamin or ANother talented winger a chance, but i fear Goode will be at 15 and brown at bloomin 14 !!!

Injuries to Tuilagi and now Tompkins will hopefully allow Burrell or eastmond to get a go, with barrit/twelvetrees starting and with Parling out i would like to see Attwood consolidate his position as number 3 in the country....so first game of the 6nations  

Vunipola
Hartley
Cole
LAwes
Lunchbox
Wood
Robshaw
Vunipola
Youngs
Farrell
Benjamin
12,trees
BArrit
Ashton
Brown

Wilson
Youngs
Marler
Attwood
Morgan
Care
Flood
Burrell

Sorry Chris but for me Marler is well ahead of Vunipola at the moment. He really looks to be showing his potential now.

Marler has been paying really well since the summer where he looked to have got his aggressive carrying back alongside his solid scrummaging.

Seeing Vunipoa go on the Lions tour has probably galvanised him a fair bit. Especially as it's pretty easy to say there was nothing between them before that.

This season the carrying still looks good, he's put a couple of nifty steps in to his arsenal as well. He's offloading and his defense is very solid, he often pushes the oppo back over the gainline. Scrummaging is still solid too.

All in all a very good all round 80 min prop.

Injuries to Wade and Yarde look bad but we've got May and Benjamin who are both looking deadly, as well as Ashton who is scoring tries again.

Losing Tuilagi is by far our biggest issue but Trinder is still playing some beautiful rugby at the moment. Lots of options, can't wait for the 6N.

Yappy, as we discussed on the quins thread...Matthews coming back seemed a huge bonus to you guys. Whats your views on him as a potential Saxon or More?

So for the 1st 6n game we "could" be looking at the below, only 9 and wing a bit of a puzzle...pick the form player i guess.
Pack picks itself, but the backs not so clear...

1 Marler
2 Hartley
3 Cole
4 Launchbury
5 Lawes
6 Wood
7 Robshaw
8 Morgan / Vunipola

9 Youngs / Care / Dickson
10 Farrell
11 Nowell / May / Elliott / Benjamin / Strettle ??
12 Barritt (Swapping on attack and defence)
13 Twelvetrees
14 Ashton
15 Brown

yappysnap wrote:Marler has been paying really well since the summer where he looked to have got his aggressive carrying back alongside his solid scrummaging.

Seeing Vunipoa go on the Lions tour has probably galvanised him a fair bit. Especially as it's pretty easy to say there was nothing between them before that.

This season the carrying still looks good, he's put a couple of nifty steps in to his arsenal as well. He's offloading and his defense is very solid, he often pushes the oppo back over the gainline. Scrummaging is still solid too.

All in all a very good all round 80 min prop.

It's pretty easy to say there was nothing between them if you're a Quins fan! I would agree that in the Ais Marler was good but last season was below par for him. (perhaps it doesn't help my perception of him that he saves his headless chicken performances for games vs Sarries, been sin binned in the last two plus given away a stupid interception in another). Last season Mako finished the season ahead of Marler but Marler did well vs NZ particularly to put himself in a good position for the LH spot.

Geordiefalcon feel you are being harsh on Mako. Marler is fit, Mako is not - that's the only difference at the moment. Mako will be back soon so the battle for that starting LH spot will be fierce again.

Let's be honest it's looking like we'll need both of them and they are both good looseheads

Beshocked, im not putting Mako down, i think its great that we have these two young guys showing such ability already when most teams are struggling to get one especially when you consider our first choice player is top class and looking increasingly fragile.

I just feel at the moment Marler is looking very impressive...and that includes the recent AI's.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Beshocked, im not putting Mako down, i think its great that we have these two young guys showing such ability already when most teams are struggling to get one especially when you consider our first choice player is top class and looking increasingly fragile.

I just feel at the moment Marler is looking very impressive...and that includes the recent AI's.

No geordiefalcon that's not what you said. You said he's well ahead - he's not in my opinion Mako and Marler should be pretty much neck and neck when it comes to the 6 nations if both are fit.

Chequeredjersey I agree. England are in a good position when it comes to looseheads. Tight heads on the other hand.... lose Cole or Wilson and TH options become a bit of a problem.

Well we'll just agree to disagree Beshocked.

As for TH, dont worry the Falcons are doing it again...Scott Wilson is on his way...Englands Carl Hayman.

beshocked wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Beshocked, im not putting Mako down, i think its great that we have these two young guys showing such ability already when most teams are struggling to get one especially when you consider our first choice player is top class and looking increasingly fragile.

I just feel at the moment Marler is looking very impressive...and that includes the recent AI's.

No geordiefalcon that's not what you said. You said he's well ahead - he's not in my opinion Mako and Marler should be pretty much neck and neck when it comes to the 6 nations if both are fit.

Chequeredjersey I agree. England are in a good position when it comes to looseheads. Tight heads on the other hand.... lose Cole or Wilson and TH options become a bit of a problem.

Theres always PDJ

Or Stevens  

  

Methinks we should come clean with Corbs and say.. he's world class, but his knee will only let him play for a certain number of matches and as a Pro player, he needs to play to earn money. He'd last longer at club level than international level. And let he go out the EPS.

If i was to take a 40 man squad to NZ i would take

Dylan Hartley , Tom Youngs , Rob Webber

Alex Corbisero , Mako Vunipola , Joe Marler

Dan Cole , Dave Wilson , Paul Doran Jones

Joe Launchbury , Dave Attwood , George Kruis

Courtney Lawes , Geoff Parling , Tom Savage

Tom Wood , Jamie Gibson , 

Chris Robshaw , Matt Kvesic

Billy Vunipola , Ben Morgan , Dave Ewers

Dan Care , Ben Youngs , Lee Dickson

Owen Farrell , Freddie Burns , George Ford

Marlon Yarde , Christian Wade , Chris Ashton , Jonny May

Billy Twelvetrees ,Kyle Eastmond , Brad Barritt

Manu Tuilagi , Henry Trinder

Mike Brown , Ben Foden , Anthoney Watson.

Gives me a test team of

Brown , Yarde , Tuilagi , Eastmond , May , Farrell , Care ; Corbisero , Hartley , Cole , Launchbury , Lawes , Wood , Robshaw , Vunipola

With the following to play Saders

Watson , Ashton , Trinder , Twelvetrees , Wade , Ford , Dickson ; Marler , Webber , PDJ , Attwood , Kruis , Gibson , Kvesic , Ewers

Interesting list Driver. Im not a fan of PDJ, i would rather take our Brookes.

Dylan Hartley , Tom Youngs , Rob Webber

Alex Corbisero , Mako Vunipola , Joe Marler

Dan Cole , Dave Wilson , Paul Doran Jones, Keiran Brookes

Joe Launchbury , Dave Attwood , George Kruis Charlie Matthews (If he continues good form for the season)

Courtney Lawes , Geoff Parling , Tom Savage George Kruis

Tom Wood , Jamie Gibson , Matt Garvey

Chris Robshaw , Matt Kvesic Will Fraser

Billy Vunipola , Ben Morgan , Dave Ewers

Dan Care , Ben Youngs , Lee Dickson

Owen Farrell , Freddie Burns , George Ford

Marlon Yarde , Christian Wade , Chris Ashton , Jonny May

Billy Twelvetrees ,Kyle Eastmond , Brad Barritt

Manu Tuilagi , Henry Trinder / (or Daly if fit and playing 13)

Mike Brown , Ben Foden , Anthoney Watson.

Would have thought Matthews would be behind Slater and Kitchener, agree with garvey over gibson, would love to see how garveys mobility holds up at international level, hes certainly an absolute beast in a tight spot.

Agree with all your changes there Geordie.

PDJ is no where near Int quality at the moment while Matthews is a lump with some solid skills, i'd have him behind a few others but just for sheer size and potential may be worth a shot, but NZ could be too early for him, Kruis is in a similar boat, a lot of potential but is it too early for them both.

Savage is having second season syndrome and looks a fair way behind those two, he also needs to figure if he's a 6 or 4. Jamie Gibson is another Tom Croft and I thought we'd all realised that just doesn't work for us, Garvey is the opposite of a Croft though and if he hadn't slept with Lancaster's missus then might be in with a shout. As it is I think Fearns or Haskell will be ahead of Garvey.

Kvesic still looks pap for Glos and to me Fraser just looks better anyway he brings a lot more physicality to the 7 role then Robshaw or Fraser and reminds me more of Louw. I'd potentially look at Wallace as well if we wanted a ball player there, especially if we had Garvey or Fearns at 6.

I'd love to see Ewers come in to play 8 a few times but honestly he'd need an injury to occur for it to happen.

In the backs only changes i'd make are George Ford out and Burrell in. I'd like to try to play the socks off Burns and see how he copes. Have him starting all three games if possible, let him know he's guaranteed that game time and see how he goes. Hopefully we'll see him shine.

LH - Marler, Mako, Wood

Hooker - Hartley, Webber, Youngs

TH - Wilson, Brookes, Knight - Cole will need resting come the summer I expect. Brookes and Knight are impressing me most out of the alternatives

Locks - Launchbury, Lawes, Attwood, Parling, Slater

Flanker - Robshaw, Wood, Haskell, Kvesic, Fraser

Number 8 - Morgan, Vunipola

Scrum half - Youngs, Care + one of Dickson or Robson

Fly half - Flood, Burns, Ford - Give Farrell the summer off following the Lions tour, AI's, 6N and likely big end to the season with play-offs etc

Inside centre - Twelvetrees, Barritt or Allen (whoever is playing best), Eastmond

Outside centre - Tuilagi (if fit and firing), Trinder, Daly

Wing - Wade, Yarde, May, Nowell

Full back - Brown, Foden and Tait if fit and on form, Watson if not

There's an argument to rest lots of players but personally I'd rest the most pertinent (Cole especially I expect) then take a large squad and rotate the others to reduce the chance of burn-out.

I've been really dissapointed with Nick Wood every time he's played for the past two seasons. I think Mullen's above him in the pecking order.

yappysnap wrote:I've been really dissapointed with Nick Wood every time he's played for the past two seasons. I think Mullen's above him in the pecking order.

Seems a decent enough club player but don't think he's shown enough to be above Mullen either. Strong enough in the set piece but never really notice him in the loose. I'm biased but although it's still very early days for him in terms of first team appearances I think Alex Waller of Saints will push for Saxons recognition in the next 12 months if he continues his recent form. Younger too.

Waller has looked quality for Saints. He really impressed when I've seen him play and is scarily destructive at scrum time for someone so young.

Last season he looked far better then the more experienced Mujati!

yappysnap wrote:Waller has looked quality for Saints. He really impressed when I've seen him play and is scarily destructive at scrum time for someone so young.

Last season he looked far better then the more experienced Mujati!

On the other side of the scrum?

Yeah you guys are right about my choice of Matthews as the young powerhouse in the second row.

Could easily pick Slater over him. Kitchener over Kruis...even Dom Barrow has been outstanding for us...physical, athletic, intelligent and only 20!
We're in a good position for Second Rows...and whats nice is they all appear to have some serious size and power along mobility.

HammerofThunor wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Waller has looked quality for Saints. He really impressed when I've seen him play and is scarily destructive at scrum time for someone so young.

Last season he looked far better then the more experienced Mujati!

On the other side of the scrum?

Exactly, you have to admit that's impressive...

Is it a coincidence that following the RFU deal to reward teams for bringing through academy players , we're now seeing a host a "potentially" very good youngsters coming through in all positions.
Of course it remains to be seen who will actually make it...but its encouraging.

Players like, Yarde, Wade, May, Daly, Scott Wilson, Waller, Matthews, Fraser, Barrow, Watson etc etc..

I like the way Waller has been handled by Saints. He has managed to get a surpringly large number of games considering he is only 23. He served a long apprentership and has clearly learned from Tiny. I'm not sure he'll make it to international level, but he should have a long Saints career.

If he carries on like he has so far this season then Kitchener has to be close to a spot in the squad

Definitely. Really seems to be coming into his own

killer938 wrote:If he carries on like he has so far this season then Kitchener has to be close to a spot in the squad

As a Tigers fan I'm biased but Slater and Kitchener are the two I'd be looking to as a replacement for Parling. They have both been great this season (and much of last). Both are big units but they have very good skills as well, and both have decent pace for men their size so they add good carrying option. Plus both have been in the Saxons and around the EPS for a while so know the system.

Depends what we want for which one gets it. If we want the like for like Parling replacement then Kitchener can run the line-out, jumps very well and has an excellent work rate. If we want to add that bit of grunt we've been missing in the engine room then Slater is a big unit and imposes himself around the park very well in all facets of the game. The depth at second row is looking very good though no doubt.

Does anyone actually know what happened between Garvey and Lancaster in that Saxons half time?

Has Fearns been getting much gametime for Bath. Whats he been like?

Fearns has played well when fit, but completely overshadowed by Garvey, he's been immense and critical to our form this year, along with Attwood, Webber, Ford and James.

I just cant work out why someone of garveys ability and consistantly high level of performance (and size..something we need) is not even remotely considered for the Saxons. Its a pretty poor reflection on Lancaster.

I also ask again do anyone actually know what happened between them? What was so bad that no matter how good his performances he is simply ignored...

I disagree on the Jamie Gibson point there Yappy. He looked a little short of physicality when at London Irish but I was really impressed with his game for Tigers against Montpellier. He put in some good tackles, choked well at times and carried. I think he's developing more of an edge and isn't a Croft copy.

Garvey deserves to be included as one of the six changes in January his form for Bath has been consistently excellent. If he doesn't get a spot then i'll start wondering about exactly what Lancaster and/or Rowntree doesn't like about him.

In the immediate future we need a replacement for Parling for the 6N, another LH to fill in for Corbs, a BR for Croft, two wings and an OC - that's just for the squad in a month's time.

On form so far i'd have to go: Graham Kitchener (Parling) - has played well so far this season with a good couple of games recently. Line-out back-up to Lawes.

Nathan Catt (Corbisiero) - it's not an area with a stand-out next choice yet. Wood hasn't looked as good as last season, Mullan has gone well without being spectacular. Catt had a really good game against Exeter and has looked very good all round when i've seen him play.

Matt Garvey (Croft) - really deserves a shot to see if he'll cut it at international level in his new role of BS. If he doesn't make the Saxons I feel some sort of letter of complaint coming on.

Jonny May (M Yarde) J Nowell (C Wade) - some might argue we need three wings but Ashton went well over the w/end. Don't know how his comments in the press will go with Lancs though. May is a class act and Nowell is a bit more physical consistently breaking tackles. He's still learning but i'd like to see him get a chance. Benjamin has looked to be gathering momentum and some might re-state a case for Banahan to make a come-back.

Henry Trinder - would be my choice to add a bit more ball playing and pace to the backs. His club pairing with 36 might well be an advantage going through the tournament. Jospeh hasn't looked any more than competent at the moment. Shame Lowe is injured he could've made a strong case. Daly is another if he gets any game time there for Wasps.

CHj

The thing with Garvey is that was consistantly excellent for London Irish as well.

6'6, 19st, a powerhouse yet mobile Consistantly plays excellent. Tackles anything that moves. Carries well.

Its a no brainer to me..

He must have given Lancaster a right good kicking in the changing rooms at half time in that Saxons game.

What comments did Ashton make? I'll reserve judgement on him until he scores against some one a bit better then that Italian side.

What did Ashton say?

If Benjamin continues the form he showed against Montpellier he'll be hard to ignore.

Agreed he needs to perform against better teams. It was in last week's The Rugby Paper, the gist was that he's not out of form just that England now play a style which means he doesn't get on the scoreboard as much.

You could've read anything into the comments to be fair. Suffice to say it reiterates a point I made a while ago about Ashton not being an a-typical winger and that is exactly what Lancs wants (the exception being when he wants fullbacks out there instead).

If you don't utilise Asthon's work-rate then he doesn't make a stand-out winger. Far better to have someone with pace or power. Preferably both.

Benjamin finished those tries well but his first came from some woeful tackling. The second was a great finish. I'd want to see more of him before he crops up in an England shirt. Good pace and power though.

Now I know Banners has had some dubious outings (Ireland at 13 and Wales at 11 - Shane Williams shamed the lad). He has however, done some real work on his game and either at wing or 12 I can see him going well in the current England set-up. He now has a kicking game for example which is actually quite good and whilst he's not the paciest he does offer a lot of power. Just a thought.

Wales at 11 - Shane Williams shamed the lad

He isnt the first big lad to be taken down by a small'un and im sure he wont be the last.

I think banahan had a lot to offer, and certainly at centre could be very useful.

He's a better 13 than Joel Tomkins.

He'd make a good utility option on the bench if nothing else. As would Eastmond incidentally.

Don't get me started on Eastmond. If he was 3 inches taller we would be hailing him as the saviour of English rugby, and the sad thing is he's not even lacking in power, just height!

The way he runs with ball in both hands and that stutter step is just Robinson esque

Is he actually playing for Bath any more though? And will he be going back to league? (I hope not as he looks like one of the best if not the best prospects out there for the England backs full stop).