England Squad for NZ Tour and 6N

First topic message reminder :

And I've posed it in that order for a reason. England have already said that their objective is to win the 6N (with France away first up, that's a pretty big ask...) but thy also have a 3 game tour to NZ coming up in which the first game will be played without the AP finalists.

So the challenge is - how do you put together the 6N squad so that whoever makes the final, you have enough players who've played together by the end of the 6N that England can field a half-decent side with players from the top two sides missing? I suppose the good news is that for once the EPS is a nice mix of players from various teams, but a Saints-Sarries final would be a serious hindrance.

The EPS on 1 Aug looked like this. Who would be your squad? And how would you prepare them?

England senior EPS:

Forwards: David Attwood (Bath Rugby), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Alex Corbisiero (Northampton Saints), Tom Croft (Leicester Tigers), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), Matt Kvesic (Gloucester Rugby), Joe Launchbury (London Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby), Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Billy Vunipola (Saracens), Mako Vunipola (Saracens), David Wilson (Bath Rugby), Tom Wood (Northampton Saints), Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Backs: Chris Ashton (Saracens), Brad Barritt (Saracens), Mike Brown (Harlequins), Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby), Danny Care (Harlequins), Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints), Owen Farrell (Saracens), Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers), Ben Foden (Northampton Saints), Alex Goode (Saracens), Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby), Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby), Christian Wade (London Wasps), Marland Yarde (London Irish), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

England Saxons:

Forwards: Calum Clark (Northampton Saints), Jordan Crane (Leicester Tigers), Paul Doran Jones (Harlequins), Will Fraser (Saracens), James Haskell (London Wasps), Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs), Graham Kitchener (Leicester Tigers), George Kruis (Saracens), Kearnan Myall (London Wasps), David Paice (London Irish), George Robson (Harlequins), Ed Slater (Leicester Tigers), Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks), Thomas Waldrom (Leicester Tigers), Luke Wallace (Harlequins), Rob Webber (Bath Rugby), Nick Wood (Gloucester Rugby)

Backs: Anthony Allen (Leicester Tigers), Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints), Elliot Daly (London Wasps), George Ford (Bath Rugby), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby), Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby), Ugo Monye (Harlequins), Stephen Myler (Northampton Saints), Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs), Charlie Sharples (Gloucester Rugby), Joe Simpson (London Wasps), David Strettle (Saracens), Mathew Tait (Leicester Tigers), Joel Tomkins (Saracens), Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens)

yappysnap wrote:What comments did Ashton make? I'll reserve judgement on him until he scores against some one a bit better then that Italian side.

You mean like your own team?  

Driver wrote:He's a better 13 than Joel Tomkins.

No he's not. Don't even joke about that. It's not funny.

Driver wrote:He's a better 13 than Joel Tomkins.

Who isn't?

He played last match for them

beshocked wrote:

Driver wrote:He's a better 13 than Joel Tomkins.

No he's not. Don't even joke about that. It's not funny.

Not wanting to be provocative but it is a debate that sums up the players England tend to prefer quite well. In terms of offloading and passing their abilities are fairly equal. Carrying and kicking Banahan is well ahead, probably runs better lines than Tomkins as well but his extra pace and bulk does accentuate that. But as Tomkins is much better in the tackle (choke tackle especially) and probably marginally better in positioning SL will tend to prefer him. As a whole there isn't much separating the two IMO.

That said I wouldn't select either of them2. I don't feel either are bad players, far from it. Banahan's all round game has improved out of sight since he last played for England and Tomkins is a better player than he showed in the AI's. I just really feel with Manu injured it's time for England to look at a 13 who can offer a threat on the outside and the ability to get the ball to the wings. To me that means someone with more pace and a stronger passing game that Banahan or Tomkins - hence why I really want to see Trinder or Daly at OC come the Six Nations.

Baxter is talking up Jack Nowell for the 6 nations:

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,16024_9068956,00.html

Unlike many coaches who talk their players up (understandably so though) I'd say Baxter has a very good point there Cumbrian. Nowell has come back very strongly and offers a great all round game with good core skills to go with his pace and power.

Unlike the article suggests I'd be looking to use Nowell on the right wing though, then bring May in on the left for Yarde. After Yarde/Wade I'd say those two are the top wings in the country so may as well use them in their preferred positions.

9.Youngs, Care, Dickson
10.Farrell, Flood, Burns

11.May, Benjamin
12.Twelvetrees, Eastmond, Barritt
13.Trinder, Daly
14.Nowell, Ashton
15.Brown, Watson - Hopefully Tait can be added here if he returns to top form when fit (which is looking like soon thankfully)

Given the injuries to three of most potent attacking threats in Manu, Wade and Yarde I'd say those would be pretty good backs to see in the EPS. Not convinced by past selections in the backs that we'll see something like that though...

Carlos,

Barritt will be there if he's fit. He is Lancasters Midfield General / Dependable. I just think this AI's proved that to beat the best you need more than just dependability in the backs.

king_carlos wrote:Unlike many coaches who talk their players up (understandably so though) I'd say Baxter has a very good point there Cumbrian. Nowell has come back very strongly and offers a great all round game with good core skills to go with his pace and power.

Unlike the article suggests I'd be looking to use Nowell on the right wing though, then bring May in on the left for Yarde. After Yarde/Wade I'd say those two are the top wings in the country so may as well use them in their preferred positions.

9.Youngs, Care, Dickson
10.Farrell, Flood, Burns

11.May, Benjamin
12.Twelvetrees, Eastmond, Barritt
13.Trinder, Daly
14.Nowell, Ashton
15.Brown, Watson - Hopefully Tait can be added here if he returns to top form when fit (which is looking like soon thankfully)

Given the injuries to three of most potent attacking threats in Manu, Wade and Yarde I'd say those would be pretty good backs to see in the EPS. Not convinced by past selections in the backs that we'll see something like that though...

Agreed, he is a brilliant attacking threat but doesn't seem to have any of the defensive weakness that some of the others have. I have a feeling that if he gets a chance, he could be there for a while. Certainly moving forward, considering the options coming through at wing, you would be disappointed if Bomber chooses to play two fullbacks in the back three again.

I have a feeling we will only see one of Nowell/May get a go in the 6 Nations, just as it will mean there is still a bit of experience there with Ashton.

I would throw them both in, but when we will also have a new 13, not so sure Lancs will

Well what are the genuine options at wing?

Ashton - Guarenteed to start
Wade - Injured
Yarde - Injured
Foden - Injured
Banahan - Probably more of a centre now
Nowell - Playing HC rugby, JWC winner. I trust Baxters opinion aswell
Varndell - Is he still injured?
Monye - Surely his time has gone - and injured for several months
Sackey - Time has gone
Elliott - Looked very good last season, hows he going this one?
Benjamin - Impressed last outing, but has to show that level consistantly
Thompstone - Not at that level
May - Genuine contender
Strettle - Scoring tries for Sarries
Sharples - Does he deserve another chance, possibly so.

Which GENUINE options have i missed?

Cumbrian wrote:

king_carlos wrote:Unlike many coaches who talk their players up (understandably so though) I'd say Baxter has a very good point there Cumbrian. Nowell has come back very strongly and offers a great all round game with good core skills to go with his pace and power.

Unlike the article suggests I'd be looking to use Nowell on the right wing though, then bring May in on the left for Yarde. After Yarde/Wade I'd say those two are the top wings in the country so may as well use them in their preferred positions.

9.Youngs, Care, Dickson
10.Farrell, Flood, Burns

11.May, Benjamin
12.Twelvetrees, Eastmond, Barritt
13.Trinder, Daly
14.Nowell, Ashton
15.Brown, Watson - Hopefully Tait can be added here if he returns to top form when fit (which is looking like soon thankfully)

Given the injuries to three of most potent attacking threats in Manu, Wade and Yarde I'd say those would be pretty good backs to see in the EPS. Not convinced by past selections in the backs that we'll see something like that though...

Agreed,  he is a brilliant attacking threat but doesn't seem to have any of the defensive weakness that some of the others have.  I have a feeling that if he gets a chance, he could be there for a while.   Certainly moving forward, considering the options coming through at wing,  you would be disappointed if Bomber chooses to play two fullbacks in the back three again.

The thing is, young Jack is a fullback - he still has fullback instincts. The trouble for Baxter is that he's not the best fit at fullback for Exeter (yet), that'll be Arscott (Dollman may be ahead of him too). Hence he plays on the wing and is given quite a lot of freedom to get involved in the game.

Let's face it for SL it's:
Barritt/Manu (Flood off bench)
With injuries to both it's:
12T/Tomkins (Flood off bench)

It only gets slightly 'interesting' if Barritt doesn't make it back in time. Then it's:
(Barritt/AN Other)/12T (Flood off bench)
So that's at most 1 new boy for the 6Ns

It's only at wing that SL showed any real adventure with Yarde & Wade and he's probably had that knocked out of him with the last minute injuries. So it'll be:
Ashton/Strettle.

So that's it then:
Dickson/Farrell/Barritt*/12T/Ashton/Brown/Strettle.
All these more exotic selections I see are just pie-in-the-sky for old Stewie.

One amusing irony - it's normally injuries that fire up Stu's imagination (what little he has). At wing however, injuries will just return selection to normal.

Tomkins is injured and thus Lancaster won't be starting him, or Manu, or Barritt. This probably means Joseph but we can dream of Daly or Tait or even Eastmond

And Daly is playing FB so hes out aswell...

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:

king_carlos wrote:Unlike many coaches who talk their players up (understandably so though) I'd say Baxter has a very good point there Cumbrian. Nowell has come back very strongly and offers a great all round game with good core skills to go with his pace and power.

Unlike the article suggests I'd be looking to use Nowell on the right wing though, then bring May in on the left for Yarde. After Yarde/Wade I'd say those two are the top wings in the country so may as well use them in their preferred positions.

9.Youngs, Care, Dickson
10.Farrell, Flood, Burns

11.May, Benjamin
12.Twelvetrees, Eastmond, Barritt
13.Trinder, Daly
14.Nowell, Ashton
15.Brown, Watson - Hopefully Tait can be added here if he returns to top form when fit (which is looking like soon thankfully)

Given the injuries to three of most potent attacking threats in Manu, Wade and Yarde I'd say those would be pretty good backs to see in the EPS. Not convinced by past selections in the backs that we'll see something like that though...

Agreed,  he is a brilliant attacking threat but doesn't seem to have any of the defensive weakness that some of the others have.  I have a feeling that if he gets a chance, he could be there for a while.   Certainly moving forward, considering the options coming through at wing,  you would be disappointed if Bomber chooses to play two fullbacks in the back three again.

The thing is, young Jack is a fullback - he still has fullback instincts. The trouble for Baxter is that he's not the best fit at fullback for Exeter (yet), that'll be Arscott (Dollman may be ahead of him too). Hence he plays on the wing and is given quite a lot of freedom to get involved in the game.

That virtually guarantees that Lancaster will play him at wing, doesn't it?

GeordieFalcon wrote:And Daly is playing FB so hes out aswell...

Whoever chose to put Daly at FB has a huge amount to answer for. Wasps should be playing Masi at 15 and Daly at 13

Do you think he'll move to full back when the opportunity arises? Or do you reckon there's a chance he'll stay on the wing long term? He looks a cracking winger to me and that is where he played pretty much all of his rugby for the England U20's.

I'm not opposed to a Twelvetrees/Trinder partnership either ..

Given how the summer tour went I am not convinced that the 'management' seem to rate May that highly either. There are signs of hope - it seems pretty clear that we would have gone with Yarde/ Wade on the wings in the AI had they both been fit.

And I do think that Barritt is going to be the reliable back up rather than 1st choice, but that SL wont hesitate to put him in if one of the other options dont seem to be working.

Monye is injured too, for several months

ChequeredJersey wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:And Daly is playing FB so hes out aswell...

Whoever chose to put Daly at FB has a huge amount to answer for. Wasps should be playing Masi at 15 and Daly at 13

Both Massi & Soutwell are out long term injured Chequered - no choice I'm afraid.

Cumbrian wrote:Do you think he'll move to full back when the opportunity arises?  Or do you reckon there's a chance he'll stay on the wing long term?  He looks a cracking winger to me and that is where he played pretty much all of his rugby for the England U20's.

Dunno, I think he might, but Jack's one of those guys that you want with his hands on the ball as much as possible, and FB isn't usually the best place for that. I think it's significant that he started JWC final at fullback, though. I've actually touted him as outside centre, but no one I've spoken to about it agrees with me (He had a couple of A games there, but no 1st team).

He definitely seems to have the attributes that you'd want from an outside centre, but I haven't seen much of his passing game yet. It could be a viable idea (then again I always thought Mark Cueto would have made a good 13 too, so what do I know?).

Cumbrian wrote:He definitely seems to have the attributes that you'd want from an outside centre, but I haven't seen much of his passing game yet.  It could be a viable idea (then again I always thought Mark Cueto would have made a good 13 too, so what do I know?).

Totally agree mate...

There's no way Gen. Farrell will allow Lancs to pick two new wingers and an OC. What i'm afraid we'll see is David Strettle called back up from the Saxons and Asthon retain his place at 14. Mike Brown will occupy the FB slot and Alex Goode will be the 'utility back' along with Flood on the bench.

At OC we'll see Brad 'i'm a frustrated No.6' Barritt rushed back too quickly from injury next to 36. The usual suspects will occupy the HB slots.

Thus: 9. L Dickson 10. O Farrell 11. D Strettle 12. B Twelvetrees 13. B Barritt 14. C Ashton 15. M Brown

It's another case of strip a couple of players out and all of a sudden it could be a good side. I could tolerate Ashton and Dickson keeping their places if we were able to move to a decent OC such as Trinder, a wing with some actual pace like May and a FH who can vary his depth eg: Burns, Flood (on a good day).

We're three or four players away from a really complete team but it feels like thousands. And if we do get there it'll be by chance rather than design.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Carlos,

Barritt will be there if he's fit. He is Lancasters Midfield General / Dependable. I just think this AI's proved that to beat the best you need more than just dependability in the backs.

Agree with that and much of what Chjw131 said in that last post. 12.Twelvetrees 13.Barritt is the most likely if both are fit. Whilst I don't like that partnership I could cope with it if I felt Barritt were there to allow some more potent but inexperienced wings to bed in. However I'm afraid Ashton will be at 14 and wouldn't be too surprised to see Strettle given the recall at 11.

Given Strettle's poor showing in the summer tour compared to the youngsters I really can't say he deserves it though. There's a reason that NZ try to bring wingers through early, it's because once injuries and age start to set in and that little bit of pace/agility goes players rapidly lose their attacking threat. I was a big fan of Monye and Strettle a few years back and both are still quality Prem players but it's time to turn to the youngsters on the wings.

9.Youngs or Care
10.Farrell - Get him playing flatter, by all accounts he wants too and showed on the Lions tour he can

11.May
12.Twelvtrees
13.Barritt
14.Nowell
15.Brown

Whilst I'd so much rather have Trinder or Daly at 13 I could cope with that if Barritt was being used to offer solidity whilst the youngsters outside him settled in. Can't see it happening though unfortunately.

On a more positive note however I''m becoming more convinced by the game that Marler has the ability to step up in the LH shirt and make the continuing absence of Corbs less of a blow.

He looked very solid against NZ and finally seems to be bringing consistency to all parts of his game with his scrummaging now very solid and his clear increase in confidence there allowing his carrying game to come to the fore again.

1.Marler, Vunipola
2.Hartley, Youngs, Webber
3.Cole, Wilson
4.Launchbury, Slater
5.Lawes, Attwood
6.Wood, Haskell
7.Robshaw + one of Kvesic or Fraser
8.Vunipola, Morgan

I genuinely look at that as a set of forwards that already has the ability to compete with most and the capability to get even better. Especially when you add in Corbs, Parling and Croft to hopefully return strongly.

I'd be very interested in seeing Garvey at 6 at some point however as someone who can offer something that bit different given his extra bulk.

Yep that pack looks quality.

It's a shame that there are no midweek games during the summer tour next year (although i'm sure the new agreement on summer tours was meant to factor those in??) and that the A squad only get about 3 6N's games to play in as there is a heck of a lot of potential needing a try out.

On a different note does anyone know who we're playing in the AI's next year?

There is 1 midweek match, they are playing the Crusaders between the second and third tests.

Ah that's cool

I think our pack is looking pretty strong, but we also have options in most positions. Some untried so i wont call it depth just yet, but i firmly believe some of the untired ones will come in a not look out of place at this level. Players Like Slater, Kitchener...even Barrow etc.

I think we have to accept Garvey will never play for any England side whilst Lancaster is involved...and that is a big problem.

As for the backs...Twelvetrees and Barritt can switch on attack and defence so its not a problem...however i agree we need to then put in a couple of the inexperienced yet explosive / creative wingers to make up for it.

Dont forget for all the abuse they get Strettle and Ashton are regular scorers for their club.

Well watched the saints game..
Wood, Hartley, lawes, Burrell all made great cases for the 6n...

3 of them very likely to start anyway though

I know this is blasphemy to many on here but Clark didn't exactly play bad either........

Clark did play well. And what he did in the past is in the past. But unfortunately for him there are so many players currently ahead of him in selection in both positions he could play. If he was to sneak in it would probably be at lock.

Fluxy wrote:Clark did play well. And what he did in the past is in the past. But unfortunately for him there are so many players currently ahead of him in selection in both positions he could play. If he was to sneak in it would probably be at lock.

100% agree.

Personally I don't see Clark as a lock, I don't think he's big enough and like you said there are a lot of people ahead of him.

But if you look at the flanks, yes there are people ahead at present, but a lot are either injured or out of form/favour. Certainly when you consider Croft and Fraser are long term injured, Kvesic isn't in the best of form, Garvey???? and (my own personal opinion here) Johnson hasn't really made that big an impact at international level. The main competition at the moment for the backup flank slots comes from Haskell and Fearns who have both not long returned from injury. Out of the 3 I think Haskell is in the lead to take Crofts slot come 6Ns time, that said I think Clarks been progressing nicely so far this season and I wouldn't be surprised if he gets a place on the summer tour.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Well watched the saints game..
Wood, Hartley, lawes, Burrell all made great cases for the 6n...

What about the first Leinster game? How has Mallinder created such an inconsistent team? Did Leinster rest anyone for the second game?

Yeah thats true they got a bit of a humping in the previous meeting...but just thought they looked good in this game.

Yes Callum Clark did indeed play well.

Hood83 wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Well watched the saints game..
Wood, Hartley, lawes, Burrell all made great cases for the 6n...

What about the first Leinster game? How has Mallinder created such an inconsistent team? Did Leinster rest anyone for the second game?

Maybe North thought he was playing a SH team in the first game   

Just reading all the weekend reviews...

Against a poor side admittedly - Banahan got 4 and Garvey got a brace.

Tom Youngs looks to have played very well for Tigers

Hood - I think it was pretty much the same Leinster side. Not too many changes for Saints either apart from Dom Wouldock dropping out and North moving to 13 with Tom Collins starting on the wing.

I think for most positions now - barring TH and 7 and 13 we can pick 3 players that can step into international side. Injuries aside -
1.Corbs, Marler, Vaunipola
2.Hartley, Youngs, Webber
3.Cole, Wilson, ? H.Thomas
4.Lawes, Parling, Slater
5.Launchbury, Attwood, Kitchener
6.Wood, T.Johnston, ?
7.Robshaw, Kvesic ? (Fraser)
8.Vauipola,Morgan,Haskell (Although Easter in current form would do a job)
9. Youngs, Care, Dickson
10. Farrell, Burns, Floby
11.Ashton, Wade, Sharples
12.Twelvetrees, Barritt, Eastmond? (untested)
13.Tuilagi, Burrell (untested), Jon Joseph
14.Yarde, May, Monye
15. Brown, Foden, Goode

Even without my quartered specs on, I'm a little surprised there's been no mention of Luke Wallace this morning. He had a storming game on Sunday against a Racing side that admittedly lacked cohesion but was stacked with individual talent. Didn't miss a tackle and forced several turnovers.

Given the shortage of fit, in form flankers, and his ability to play 6, 7 or left-right, I would hope he is on Lancaster's radar.

Prop David looking at that list, your about right...and i apologies for being a broken down record player but your ? at 6 can...sorry ill say SHOULD be replaced with Matt Garvey.

Wallace has had a really strong season so far, rolling on from a strong season last year and he's forced his way into the starting lineup at Quins. That's pretty much everything people ask of youngsters so I hope he is on Lancasters radar. He looks the perfect foil for Robshaw as well.

Only negative I can see (maybe in SL eyes anyway) is that he does spend a lot of time on the wing when he isn't directly involved in a ruck. It was an issue earlier this season for Quins but not now. Don't know how Eng would take that though.

Oh and Burrell must be given a go in the 6N's. You expect such a big lad to be pretty dull when it comes to decision making but his handling and lines that he takes are just brilliant. Caused BOD and the other one no end of trouble on the weekend and he's another that's been doing it all season.

Wallace was excellent at the breakdown, though Racing were pretty poor. Every time I see Jack Nowell I think more and more he's a class act, I would love to see him in an England shirt. That's probably jinxed it but oh well!

Is it just me or is there a number of very promising young English players coming through each year?? I must not get too excited though and might go for a lie down.

yappysnap wrote:Wallace has had a really strong season so far, rolling on from a strong season last year and he's forced his way into the starting lineup at Quins. That's pretty much everything people ask of youngsters so I hope he is on Lancasters radar. He looks the perfect foil for Robshaw as well.

Only negative I can see (maybe in SL eyes anyway) is that he does spend a lot of time on the wing when he isn't directly involved in a ruck. It was an issue earlier this season for Quins but not now. Don't know how Eng would take that though.

Didnt seem to concern them when Croft was playing...

As for Burrell, i agree i think he needs to be looked at. For a big guy he seems to have more to his game than just truck it up...he looks like he has good handling and a bit of a brain. But then i'd like to see Eastmond really nail down the Bath 12 spot and give us an entirely different option at 12.

Want to see Jamie George in the saxons. He's got plenty of good game time this season. He's been playing really well.

Yeah after all the hype for years he's finally got some games and looking very good. Big lad, mobile...learnt from some very good hookers...definately worth a look in the Saxons.