England Squad for NZ Tour and 6N

First topic message reminder :

And I've posed it in that order for a reason. England have already said that their objective is to win the 6N (with France away first up, that's a pretty big ask...) but thy also have a 3 game tour to NZ coming up in which the first game will be played without the AP finalists.

So the challenge is - how do you put together the 6N squad so that whoever makes the final, you have enough players who've played together by the end of the 6N that England can field a half-decent side with players from the top two sides missing? I suppose the good news is that for once the EPS is a nice mix of players from various teams, but a Saints-Sarries final would be a serious hindrance.

The EPS on 1 Aug looked like this. Who would be your squad? And how would you prepare them?

England senior EPS:

Forwards: David Attwood (Bath Rugby), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Alex Corbisiero (Northampton Saints), Tom Croft (Leicester Tigers), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), Matt Kvesic (Gloucester Rugby), Joe Launchbury (London Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby), Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Billy Vunipola (Saracens), Mako Vunipola (Saracens), David Wilson (Bath Rugby), Tom Wood (Northampton Saints), Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Backs: Chris Ashton (Saracens), Brad Barritt (Saracens), Mike Brown (Harlequins), Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby), Danny Care (Harlequins), Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints), Owen Farrell (Saracens), Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers), Ben Foden (Northampton Saints), Alex Goode (Saracens), Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby), Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby), Christian Wade (London Wasps), Marland Yarde (London Irish), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

England Saxons:

Forwards: Calum Clark (Northampton Saints), Jordan Crane (Leicester Tigers), Paul Doran Jones (Harlequins), Will Fraser (Saracens), James Haskell (London Wasps), Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs), Graham Kitchener (Leicester Tigers), George Kruis (Saracens), Kearnan Myall (London Wasps), David Paice (London Irish), George Robson (Harlequins), Ed Slater (Leicester Tigers), Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks), Thomas Waldrom (Leicester Tigers), Luke Wallace (Harlequins), Rob Webber (Bath Rugby), Nick Wood (Gloucester Rugby)

Backs: Anthony Allen (Leicester Tigers), Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints), Elliot Daly (London Wasps), George Ford (Bath Rugby), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby), Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby), Ugo Monye (Harlequins), Stephen Myler (Northampton Saints), Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs), Charlie Sharples (Gloucester Rugby), Joe Simpson (London Wasps), David Strettle (Saracens), Mathew Tait (Leicester Tigers), Joel Tomkins (Saracens), Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens)

Driver wrote:I think we'll be ok for attack. Catty could throw a few surprises come the 6Ns.

This is priceless......

I expect a 180 turn in approach and now we will go out playing backdoor offloads, dummy-dropgoal-cut-out-passes and run everything

GeordieFalcon wrote:Yappy, most people have defended Lancs, and appreciated the team needed almost a complete overhaul.

We've saluted the improvments...the defence, the breakdown etc....hes sorted out the squad moral...people enjoy coming into the squad which seemed to be the opposite under MJ.

I think we're just a little concerned that there really doesnt seem to be any real plan for attack ...and after two years in charge there really should be glimpses of an attacking plan...or selection of the correct personnel for the plan....

That pretty much sums it up. Lancaster has done some really positive things with little in the way of experienced resources and aside from picking some pretty poor benches he hasn't done a lot wrong.

As a manager I actually think he's a very good fit for England. He understands that with limited time with an international squad the key thing is attitude, environment and support. His downfall is relying on equally inexperienced coaches for the game plan. Graham Rowntree has always looked like a high quality coach to me and he's done some excellent work as referred to above.

The issue is firstly that Mike Catt has potential but clearly has no input as far as tactics go. He's an 'attacking skills coach' whatever that may be. It's General Farrell that is the problem. His motivational qualities are readily apparent but his tactics are as predictable as Saracens were during Venter's regime. And that's no real surprise.

With all the potential and quality we have at our disposal it's criminal that the team is not used holistically. At present it's a limited game plan based on a super-aggressive defence designed to 'win the ball back'. That to me seems like a wonderfully circular argument. Kick the ball away in order to win it back but still have no clue really what to do with it when it is achieved.

beshocked wrote:Yes chjw131 stats you mean like tries scored? Kicking percentages?

Only 36 and perhaps May deserve to be there.

I have watched Gloucester play a few times this season I haven't been that impressed. Against Worcester the worst side in the league especially they were dire.


You would think supposedly one of the best back lines would tear Worcester apart. Especially at home.

How can you call the Gloucester backs top quality when most of them are playing woeful?

As has already been pointed out Beshocked, Rugby is a team game. No one is going to be scoring umpteen tries per game when the team as a whole is spending most of the time on the back foot.

Your adherence to statistics telling the whole story is just plain wrong. As you say yourself you'd pick Jonny May yet he's hardly been topping the try scoring tables. You appreciate no doubt that teams can be under-performing or in the lower part of the table yet there are still some players worth considering for higher honours.

The reason people are mentioning names like Nowell and Watson are that given the injury crisis, options are limited. Those players have shown real promise, Nowell in his ability to break tackles, defend well and break the game up. Watson for a similar ability plus some superb pace and stepping. Neither have scored lots of tries but if that's the sole measure of performance then Sona Tauamolo would've been playing on the wing for Tonga.

Cjw131 actually may has 4 tries in the AP.

Not expecting umpteen tries to be considered as one of the best wingers in England but you must outperform your rivals!

Nowell and Watson have scored 0 tries in the AP this season. Even 1 or 2 would help their case!

A player like Wade has sparkled for wasps despite not having the strongest pack as support. Yarde started this AP season well despite not playing with a particularly strong pack either.

Not sure how you can blame Farrell Sr solely. He's not the attack coach. SL outranks him and mike Catt should be putting more of his stamp on proceedings.

Even when Gloucester have not been on the backfoot they have flattered to deceive like vs Worcester. No tries at home vs the worst side in the league?

Gloucester have been pretty terrible this season full stop. I was expecting more from Kvesic, Morgan and Burns but I still think they will be around the squad and should be. Personally I think that Lancaster should be identifying what players will suit his future plans and go with them even if they aren't firing on all cylinders for their clubs. Strettle is continuing his good scoring rate for his club but I think his time for England has come and gone and we should be seeing if players like May etc can make the step up.

beshocked wrote:Cjw131 actually may has 4 tries in the AP.

Not expecting umpteen tries to be considered as one of the best wingers in England but you must outperform your rivals!

Nowell and Watson have scored 0 tries in the AP this season.  Even 1 or 2 would help their case!

A player like Wade has sparkled for wasps despite not having the strongest pack as support.  Yarde started this AP season well despite not playing with a particularly strong pack either.

Not sure how you can blame Farrell Sr solely. He's not the attack coach. SL outranks him and mike Catt should be putting more of his stamp on proceedings.

Even when Gloucester have not been on the backfoot they have flattered to deceive like vs Worcester. No tries at home vs the worst side in the league?

We're not discussing Gloucester's performance as a team we're looking at what individuals are bringing in a collectively poor set of performances. Freddie Burns has had a poor season throughout and currently doesn't deserve an EPS spot. Rob Cook has gone well but hasn't helped by taking the wrong option at times ditto Martyn Thomas.

It is nonetheless about seeing merit in individuals, something which you appear rather selective and narrowed about. If we're applying your logic writ large we wouldn't see the likes of Matt Hopper or Dave Ward in the premiership. Why? Well because they weren't even in an AP team originally nor even a team at the top of the Championship.

Using your rule we wouldn't see anybody progress up the ranks because it's apparently all about how the team is doing, what it's won and what their stats are. It's about spotting talent, natural ability. Spotting that and supporting it in the right environment so that it may flourish. Not expecting people to be the finished article right away and not lamenting individual stats which are often heavily reliant on the team performance.

I completely agree that it would be nice for Nowell and Watson to be getting on the score sheet. Watson has performed well for Bath but in a side which hasn't looked to play much beyond 10. Further, Exeter are still a side, despite their consistency who lack the collective fire-power to put away big teams. It's not surprising that it's difficult for such guys to get noticed try-wise at present.

Beshocked actually Gen. Farrell is the attack coach and defence coach. Indeed his title is 'backs coach'.

It's all very well saying the likes of Mike Catt should be putting their stamp on things but it's not even clear what his role is. That sort of statement presumes an awful lot. Further, simply saying Lancs outranks everyone else means nothing. If he feels his role is more management and less tactics then his input will be correlatively diminished.

Honestly guys, imagine if we had a world class coach leading England, or come to that atleast one who is an AP proven winner. Surely you must see why my heart has been weeping.

SL has won nothing and and has absolutely nothing to support his having the most important job in england apart from the fact it enabled the rfu to recruit their man from within.

He really is an rfu puppett

Chjw131 sounds like a cop out to me to say Catt has no role. My point about Lancaster is he'll oversee everything. He has the final say. Farrell is just 1 coach.

I do see merit in individuals but I feel some are overhyped for what they have actually have or haven't done. Dave Ward has put in man of the match performances and got one recently vs Exeter. Of course he should be looked at but does that mean he should be in the EPS? No.

Jamie George has been playing well too but he's been ignored because he has performed in one of the strongest sides in the league.

I feel that you and others that if players play in a good side they are devalued because they supposedly are carried along by their team mates.

Nowell has been playing well sure but not enough to warrant the hype - Saxons selection sure but any more than that is just silly.p

Easier to stand out in a weaker team.

Perhaps it comes from a desire to see new faces and more players from weaker sides.

I know about player development - seen two at my club from the championship - Barrington and Streather - both done well so far - but you don't see me hyping them up as starters for England at the moment.

I'v been quite impressed with Alex Lewington on the wing for Irish when he's played. Looks to have a good all round game.

beshocked wrote:Chjw131 sounds like a cop out to me to say Catt has no role. My point about Lancaster is he'll oversee everything. He has the final say. Farrell is just 1 coach.

I do see merit in individuals but I feel some are overhyped for what they have actually have or haven't done. Dave Ward has put in man of the match performances and got one recently vs Exeter. Of course he should be looked at but does that mean he should be in the EPS? No.

Jamie George has been playing well too but he's been ignored because he has performed in one of the strongest sides in the league.

I feel that you and others that if players play in a good side they are devalued because they supposedly are carried along by their team mates.

Nowell has been playing well sure but not enough to warrant the hype - Saxons selection sure but any more than that is just silly.p

Easier to stand out in a weaker team.

Perhaps it comes from a desire to see new faces and more players from weaker sides.

I know about player development - seen two at  my club  from the championship - Barrington and Streather - both done well so far - but you don't see me hyping them up as starters for England at the moment.

I can entirely agree that there is a tendency to over-hype certain players but that is an affliction suffered by all sports and all spectators. My point about Ward, Hopper and the like was regarding talent spotting and sometimes that comes regardless of where a team is and sometimes how many tries that particular person has scored. Ergo stats do not tell the whole story.

I certainly do not devalue other players in top ranked teams. If you'd like to check my posting history you'll see that Jamie George was one of the first players I pointed out as having huge potential at hooker back in 2011. I would expect him to be in the Saxons this January.

Brad Barritt is a good player likewise Owen Farrell, I have no issue with their ability or in Farrell's case his potential. I have residual concerns over their limitations and I accept the point that Farrell has worked on these elements. I have no objection to him starting.

As regards Nowell and Watson I think the reasons there are calls for their inclusion with England are three-fold. One, the other interesting choices at wing are injured (Wade, Yarde, Foden). Two, many feel that they have seen enough from the likes of Ashton and Strettle to form an opinion on their international capacity. Three, there is a general frustration with the back play performance and the answer may not necessarily be 'more of the same please'. Those two are seen as having a unique quality and ability to break the game up.

My view is that Nowell is not ready yet and Watson hasn't had enough experience to stand-out at international level yet. The problem is I have no desire to see Strettle in an England shirt again and don't feel that his selection will mark an emphasis on attack from the team.

In all honesty my issue is the same as yours and others. Namely that pretty much whoever is selected the environment and tactics don't seem right in order to exploit what they may have to offer from an attacking perspective.

As regards Catt I didn't say he has no role, what I said was that it wasn't clear. Can you tell me what an attacking skills coach is? And further, what their role is as regards team philosophy?

Perhaps the reason there is so much call for Yarde, Wade and others of that ilk is not just because they are good players but that they offer a unique ability to do something extraordinary. Wade with his step and pace, Yarde with a mixture of that and breaking tackles.

That's entirely understandable but it does gloss over the issues with the team play as a whole. Placing hopes on one or two individuals ie: Tuilagi, Wade etc.. to do something unusual to break the game up ignores the main thrust of the problem. A better approach to utilising attacking plays and the outside backs is required. The talent should compliment that not usurp it.

To wade back in on the wingers (sorry couldn't help it)......I would pick Wade and Yarde, they have balance, score tries, one more physical the other electric. But they are injured. So who next? May deserves his chance, he's unpredictable and I think keeps defences interested.

The backline hasn't functioned, I accept this, to keep picking the same players expecting it to work without changing the game plan is clearly not going to work. So mix it up. With Nowell, Watson, whoever else, we will not know whether they slot in unless we try! I think they are ready, played an U20 worldcup a pressure environment and performed, Nowell performed very well against Toulon twice for gods sake!

Beshocked in defence of Farrell I would pick him, he's still learning and he has very many excellent attributes.

Re Ashton, I've said it before but he has 37 caps wheres the leadership that goes with that? He has been given chances to play his way back into England form (not Sarries where he performs well) and it hasn't happened. So let him go away and try to sort it out, dropping him will not lose us a game but it might unearth a gem of a winger. Tell me on balance is that not worth it?

Please don't take Ward, we don't have any other hookers!

Does any one think Charlie Walker will get a look in this year?

Mat Hopper seems be doing well in the games that i have seen him play.

Ward the Quins hooker is giving Hartley a good battle so far.

majesticimperialman wrote:Does any one think Charlie Walker will get a look in this year?

Mat Hopper seems be doing well in the games that i have seen him play.

Ward the Quins hooker is giving Hartley a good battle so far.

It seems very harsh to say and to know where to draw the line, but the art of selection is to appreciate who is a good club player performing well within an excellent team environment and who is the real deal international who has the zing, who has that international quality?

Honestly I think all of the above fall into the first category, but who am I.....

Having said all of that, I have previously given mention to Sam Smith who given the current england wing situation may/may not have the attributes to step up?

Smith IMO has far less potential to step up than Walker, who has the step and pace to play Int level, and is younger and has played age level International rugby. Ward and Hooper if agree on but I will be absolutely astounded if Walker doesn't end up being a fixture for England

The English Pack:
Corbisiero - Hartley - Mercey
Lawes - Day
Wood - Clark
Dickinson(Dowson)

OK, before anyone gets their undies in a bunch, I am joking a little.
But this IS a seriously good pack that a number of nations would struggle to handle.  England can, and have, done worse.

Doctor grey that is a good pack indeed. I think Sarries could field a strong one too.

1.Vunipola
2.George
3.Stevens
4.Borthwick
5.Kruis
6.Wray
7.Fraser
8.Vunipola

Pretty sure we couldn't supply a winning back. Back row on the other hand...

beshocked wrote:Doctor grey that is a good pack indeed. I think Sarries could field a strong one too.

1.Vunipola
2.George
3.Stevens
4.Borthwick
5.Kruis
6.Wray
7.Fraser
8.Vunipola

Agree, that is also a very good EQ pack. This is what we need our clubs to be able to do.

ChequeredJersey wrote:Pretty sure we couldn't supply a winning back. Back row on the other hand...

Your club does have that rather crazy chap at fullback, no?  Or is he spending time with those very nice young men in those very nice white coats?  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnzHtm1jhL4

I meant pack

Well

1. Marler
2. Buchanan
3. Collier
4. Matthews
5. Robson
6. Robshaw
7. Wallace
8. Easter

Ain't half bad. That's three decent EQ packs from three clubs.

Tigers

1. Stankovich
2. Youngs
3. Cole
4. Slater
5. Kitchener
6. Croft
7. Gibson
8. Crane

And another.

Bath's isn't too shabby either:

01. Nathan Catt
02. Rob Webber
03. David Wilson
04. Dave Attwood
05. Dominic Day (I read somewhere that he is English qualified)
06. Matt Garvey
07. Guy Mercer/ Josh Ovens
08. Carl Fearns

Cumbrian wrote:Bath's isn't too shabby either:

01. Nathan Catt
02. Rob Webber
03. David Wilson
04. Dave Attwood
05. Dominic Day (Will Spencer)
06. Matt Garvey
07. Guy Mercer/ Josh Ovens
08. Carl Fearns

Will Spencer is an excellent young lock prospect at Bath. That's a mean old pack with a decent openside in Mercer at 7.

Wasps:

1. M Mullan
2. T Lindsay
3. P Swainston
4. J Launchbury
5. T Palmer
6. S Jones
7. J Haskell
8. E Jackson

- Not the complete unit but certainly some good foundations.

But but I though the Jeff was awash with hordes of foreigns stopping EQ players from living .....

England cant use player numbers at top clubs as an excuse. Thats 5 in each position (before we look at reserves...Tigers you could add Deacon, Chuter and Waldrom...all capped) at or around EPS level before we shop around the next 7 clubs (Morgan etc) and France (hi Armitage).

The problem for a long time has been the EPS getting these guys to step up another level again, thats what its there for. Perhaps the rapid rise of the Vunipolas since being capped as raw lumps shows that could change.

If anything these players suffer from "too much rugby", not sitting behind Samoan benefit tourists. The huge amount of international minutes Dan Cole managed to get through without breaking down was no doubt helped by sharing first choice with Castro for a few years keeping his owrkload to a level his body could cope with.

No excuses for Lancaster, you have the choice of a vast number of players. Youve had a squad together for a few years to work out what needs doing and time to help them step up (especially of you factor in how many of the current EPS he handled as Saxons coach).

This year and next year are when we should really start to see the benefits of the long term projects from the coherent elite development system.


France to win the 6 nations   

In terms of depth our pack has been alright for a while. Wilson was always a capable second choice tighthead. What we need is for two or three more players to cement world class status over the next two international periods. Hartley, Cole, Lawes, Launchbury and Wood and Robshaw in his own way could all do it if they stay fit.

kingelderfield

On Ward and Hopper I agree, but Walker should get there. His missed tackle on North was a shocker but pretty much the first mistake he's made at Premiership level. Hopper and Ward would probably physically be found out playing for England, but Walker has straight-line pace on another level from Ashton, Wade, Yarde etc. He's not ready now, but he should be one day.

Well you stopped numbering at 8 and there is England's problem. No matter what depth you have 1-8 you have nothing 9-15 and the kind of player you produce at 1-8 are so homogenous that it's like having an endless number of deck chairs for the titanic decks.

Creating players 1-8 who can form a meaningful partnership with the other 7 guys rather than acting like two separate loads on an articulated truck, with only incidental connection.

thomh wrote:In terms of depth our pack has been alright for a while. Wilson was always a capable second choice tighthead. What we need is for two or three more players to cement world class status over the next two international periods. Hartley, Cole, Lawes, Launchbury and Wood and Robshaw in his own way could all do it if they stay fit.

kingelderfield

On Ward and Hopper I agree, but Walker should get there. His missed tackle on North was a shocker but pretty much the first mistake he's made at Premiership level. Hopper and Ward would probably physically be found out playing for England, but Walker has straight-line pace on another level from Ashton, Wade, Yarde etc. He's not ready now, but he should be one day.

Very happy to be proven wrong - though honestly faster than Wade, well that would be saying somthing.

GloriousEmpire wrote:Well you stopped numbering at 8 and there is England's problem. No matter what depth you have 1-8 you have nothing 9-15 and the kind of player you produce at 1-8 are so homogenous that it's like having an endless number of deck chairs for the titanic decks.

Creating players 1-8 who can form a meaningful partnership with the other 7 guys rather than acting like two separate loads on an articulated truck, with only incidental connection.

What a jolly interjection. No doubt historically and culturally our rugby has been forward based as that is/has been where our strength lay, however regardless of the ineptitude of the current conservative rfu stooge/england coaching set up, make no mistake we do have the backline talent - and thankfully we are beginning to see AP sides trying to play a 15 man game; Bath, Northampton, Quins, Saracens, Leicester amongst others.

Your observation is insightful though if I were you I'd keep your eyes closer to home bearing in mind the Blacks have just fallen back into the 'peaking between world cups' trap. Have you noticed how old they are looking? None of Mccaw, Carter, Smith or Nonu will make 2015.

NZ's depth is fine. For McCaw, carter we are no longer scared if they can't front. Cruden is better than carter and in Barrett we have two new and superior generations. Smith will make 2015 as will nonu, but if not we have SBW returning, and Ben Smith able to cover.  The All Blacks have more depth now than possibly ever before with three options in every Backline position, the worlds best back row, Kaino returning, and probably the worlds best
Locking duo - the back bone of the All Blacks team has changed. There are 22 new All Blacks since the last World Cup triumph in 2011 and that has been achieved whilst losing just the one match.

Saili, Piutau, Ben smith, Barrett, Aaron smith, Savea, Romano, Retallick, Cane, Thrush, TJP, TKB, Ardie Savea....the options and depth are just staggering.

You didn't notice that in the recent tour NZ managed to name both the most experienced all black team in history as well as the youngest All Blacks team to win a clean sweep?

Which will make it more galling when you get back to choking!

I'm sure that when NZ's current record run is ended, as all sporting triumphs are eventually, some idiots out there with serious schadenfreude issues and a lack of ability to analyse the game, or express their thoughts adequately will accuse NZ of "choking". However luckily this kind of moron is usually in the minority.

Lol. You sound a bit wound up GE!   

Nope.

" Tigers

1. Stankovich 2. Youngs 3. Cole 4. Slater 5. Kitchener 6. Croft 7. Gibson 8. Crane"

Then you can still have:

1. Bristow
2. Hawkins
3. Balmain
4. Deacon
5. Parling
6. Wells
7. Owen
8. Waldrom

Agree with Portnoy. Lancaster has a large player pool.and should have been able to develop a squad with options by now.

Boris Stankovich is English? Really?
Looks like he comes from the mountains somewhere in Siberia. Is that really right?

I know I am urinating into the wind with most of you, but I am truly compelled to write this.

The most accurate kicker in the Premiership is on the second place team in the Premiership.  But he can't get picked for England?

His teams scores tries.  His team moves forward.  On that score, not very different to the fly half in first place team.  And yet he can't get picked for England?  

The Gloucester fly half, on a team struggling everywhere, and the Pygmy Bath fly half are seemingly ahead of him?  All Stevie did was play the second half against Harlequins on one leg in raw pain and sheer unadulterated guts.  And still kept the team moving and mode most of this kicks.  As he has done all season.

What else does someone need to do?  Keep his team moving forward, doing the job, whilst hemorrhaging his last ounce of blood?  Stewie (Stuie?), you saw the answer on Friday night.  Stevie is that rare player who really does continue to improve every season he plays.

I'd consider Myler for England, and Ford too. At least as options. We do need, I think, to cultivate a player other than 10 who can kick (36? Daly?) to take pressure off our 10s though

I agree. In an ideal world a player like Twelvetrees, with a broader range of skills, would nail down the fly half position. Unfortunately, there seems to be resistance from a number of parties, and possibly Twelvetreees, too. Unfortunate.

doctor_grey wrote:I know I am urinating into the wind with most of you, but I am truly compelled to write this.

The most accurate kicker in the Premiership is on the second place team in the Premiership.  But he can't get picked for England?

His teams scores tries.  His team moves forward.  On that score, not very different to the fly half in first place team.  And yet he can't get picked for England?  

The Gloucester fly half, on a team struggling everywhere, and the Pygmy Bath fly half are seemingly ahead of him?  All Stevie did was play the second half against Harlequins on one leg in raw pain and sheer unadulterated guts.  And still kept the team moving and mode most of this kicks.  As he has done all season.

What else does someone need to do?  Keep his team moving forward, doing the job, whilst hemorrhaging his last ounce of blood?  Stewie (Stuie?), you saw the answer on Friday night.  Stevie is that rare player who really does continue to improve every season he plays.

Would like to see him mix his game up a little more, a little flatter and to attack the line with a tad more frequency...but none of those things is worth doing for the sake of it, only when it presents itself. As such, I agree, he's in form and in a good team and all aspects of his game seem to be steadily improving, he should be rewarded for that. Ford and Burns are nowhere near the level of consistency required at the moment.

Boris was born in NZ but to an English mother. He played English age grade rugby many years ago.

Twelvetrees isn't a 10. Lacks that fly half ego and can be pressured by the defence, 12 suits him better.

ChequeredJersey wrote:...We do need, I think, to cultivate a player other than 10 who can kick...

We seem to have lost that knack in England, which is strange given how successful Hare, Webb and Hodgkinson were at kicking from full back. We often talk about how we have an embarrassment if riches at 15 but not many can take place kicks. That's one reason I think we miss out by not having Delon Armitage in the mix.

In fact, given the competition we have in some positions, it's surprising someone hasn't tried to work on developing that skill to provide another option. Perhaps our locks could watch some videos of John Eales.

Myler is good, and a well rounded flyhalf. But he has a tendency to scuff kicks when under pressure. His awful awful miss against Leinster being a case a case in point.

Up until this season I'd have said Myler was a poor man's Charlie Hodgson. Outstanding servant to his club but never looked like making that step up to Int level.

This season he's looked almost there, except when the pressure has really come on like against Leinster where he just couldnt do his job right.

To be honest if he was picked and proved me wrong I'd be happy. But I get the feeling his chance had almost slipped by. Although he could take Floods spot as the older fly half in the EPS and Burns/Ford play in the Saxons.

Well, the Telegraph reckons Lancaster will lose Flood and has no place for Cipriani, so there'll be some shuffling in the fly half ranks.

GloriousEmpire wrote:Well you stopped numbering at 8 and there is England's problem. No matter what depth you have 1-8 you have nothing 9-15 and the kind of player you produce at 1-8 are so homogenous that it's like having an endless number of deck chairs for the titanic decks.

Creating players 1-8 who can form a meaningful partnership with the other 7 guys rather than acting like two separate loads on an articulated truck, with only incidental connection.

I actually think GG is correct there.

SL and the coaches do seem to be changing the culture in the team and pack though with players like Youngs, Launchberry and Robshaw all being outstanding ball in hand and linking with the backs.

It isn't perfect yet though and we need the backs to better use the ball these forwards now provide for them but we're sort of going the right way, slowly.

As for Prem sides there are a heck of a lot if backs out there. Look at Quins:

9.Care or Dickson
10. Botica
11. Smith or Chisholm
12. JTH or Casson
13. Lowe or Hopper
14. Walker or Monye
15. Brown or Lindsay-Hague

The problem isn't numbers it's talent. All are good club players but none of them look like ready made Internationals and none of them do enough consistently to stand out against the other 77+ English backs playing in the league. The same goes for every other club. Oh and a heck of a lot are injured too!