England Squad for NZ Tour and 6N

First topic message reminder :

And I've posed it in that order for a reason. England have already said that their objective is to win the 6N (with France away first up, that's a pretty big ask...) but thy also have a 3 game tour to NZ coming up in which the first game will be played without the AP finalists.

So the challenge is - how do you put together the 6N squad so that whoever makes the final, you have enough players who've played together by the end of the 6N that England can field a half-decent side with players from the top two sides missing? I suppose the good news is that for once the EPS is a nice mix of players from various teams, but a Saints-Sarries final would be a serious hindrance.

The EPS on 1 Aug looked like this. Who would be your squad? And how would you prepare them?

England senior EPS:

Forwards: David Attwood (Bath Rugby), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Alex Corbisiero (Northampton Saints), Tom Croft (Leicester Tigers), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), Matt Kvesic (Gloucester Rugby), Joe Launchbury (London Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby), Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Billy Vunipola (Saracens), Mako Vunipola (Saracens), David Wilson (Bath Rugby), Tom Wood (Northampton Saints), Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Backs: Chris Ashton (Saracens), Brad Barritt (Saracens), Mike Brown (Harlequins), Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby), Danny Care (Harlequins), Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints), Owen Farrell (Saracens), Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers), Ben Foden (Northampton Saints), Alex Goode (Saracens), Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby), Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby), Christian Wade (London Wasps), Marland Yarde (London Irish), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

England Saxons:

Forwards: Calum Clark (Northampton Saints), Jordan Crane (Leicester Tigers), Paul Doran Jones (Harlequins), Will Fraser (Saracens), James Haskell (London Wasps), Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs), Graham Kitchener (Leicester Tigers), George Kruis (Saracens), Kearnan Myall (London Wasps), David Paice (London Irish), George Robson (Harlequins), Ed Slater (Leicester Tigers), Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks), Thomas Waldrom (Leicester Tigers), Luke Wallace (Harlequins), Rob Webber (Bath Rugby), Nick Wood (Gloucester Rugby)

Backs: Anthony Allen (Leicester Tigers), Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints), Elliot Daly (London Wasps), George Ford (Bath Rugby), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby), Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby), Ugo Monye (Harlequins), Stephen Myler (Northampton Saints), Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs), Charlie Sharples (Gloucester Rugby), Joe Simpson (London Wasps), David Strettle (Saracens), Mathew Tait (Leicester Tigers), Joel Tomkins (Saracens), Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens)

I can't really think of any examples whereby a foreign player, is keeping a promising english player out of a side. Rotation is important when a player is young as well, for example I think Quinns have done a wonderful job with Wallace.

flankertye wrote:Myler is good, and a well rounded flyhalf. But he has a tendency to scuff kicks when under pressure. His awful awful miss against Leinster being a case a case in point.

Yet he is the most accurate kicker in the Premiership and has made quite a few pressure kicks.  Just look at the kicks under pressure against Quins the other day.  Touchline conversions ain't easy, especially on one leg, in the slop, the match in the balance, against one of the best teams in the league.  

yappysnap wrote:Up until this season I'd have said Myler was a poor man's Charlie Hodgson. Outstanding servant to his club but never looked like making that step up to Int level.
This season he's looked almost there, except when the pressure has really come on like against Leinster where he just couldnt do his job right.
To be honest if he was picked and proved me wrong I'd be happy. But I get the feeling his chance had almost slipped by. Although he could take Floods spot as the older fly half in the EPS and Burns/Ford play in the Saxons.

The Leinster is an example of the bad game that every player has.  He doesn't have many. Besides, the whole team imploded against Leinster.  Not kicking great in the second Leinster match, he still ran the attack well and helped drive the team to victory. I see him regularly.  Watched him in training.  He has studied his art and refined his skills and improves every year.  Last year's Stevie is not this year's Stevie.

Rugby Fan wrote:Well, the Telegraph reckons Lancaster will lose Flood and has no place for Cipriani, so there'll be some shuffling in the fly half ranks.

If Flood really goes, then there is space for Myler.  George Ford would be a mistake because he has been first choice fly half for his club for exactly one-half of a season (OK 54.55% of the season).  He needs time to grow and develop.  Cipriani needs a full season to sort himself, even if Lancaster didn't develop a rash at every mention of his name.  

Look, I understand Stevie is not the second coming of Jonny, but he leads his team well, mixes it up playing flat or deep throughout a game (mostly deep against Quins due to the quicksand slow pitch), kicks at goal better than anyone in the Premiership (this season), tactical kicks are good, and has no fear to take a run.  And more than anything has played in a team with a losing record only one time - his first year in the Premiership.  He is developing the intangible of a winner.  We need to know if he can cut it at the top level.  

Frankly, what does Farrell show us that Stevie doesn't?   Stevie is 29 and his window will not remain open long, but would last through 2015, in my estimation.  Besides, who else is there?  Ford might be the answer for England for many years.  But he needs to hone his craft at Bath.  Rushing young players is usually bad.  Burns needs to put this season behind him and start over.  Farrell is the starter, but who takes over when he gets hurt?  Jonny?  Rob Andrew?

Watched Leicester Bath game today and it struck me that Cole looks tired. He was solid and committed as always but he certainly for me has looked jaded since the Lions tour, plus with the injury situation at Leicester I doubt he's been able to rotate as much as in previous seasons?
Add to this Wilson is currently injured (Does anyone know when he's back?) and you start thinking, 'hold on a minute what happens if Cole goes down or is so knackered he can't hold the line'?

So the question is WHO IS THE NEXT ENGLAND 3?

Obviously I want Cole and Wilson fresh, fit and on form and here's hoping both stand up, but if they don't who is next?

In no particular order;

Cooper-Woolley
Alex Brown
Fraser Balmain
Matt Stevens - retired?
Kieran Brookes
Henry Thomas
Will Collier
Tom Mercey

obviously no one from Gloucester

doctor_grey wrote:

flankertye wrote:Myler is good, and a well rounded flyhalf. But he has a tendency to scuff kicks when under pressure. His awful awful miss against Leinster being a case a case in point.

Yet he is the most accurate kicker in the Premiership and has made quite a few pressure kicks.  Just look at the kicks under pressure against Quins the other day.  Touchline conversions ain't easy, especially on one leg, in the slop, the match in the balance, against one of the best teams in the league.  

yappysnap wrote:Up until this season I'd have said Myler was a poor man's Charlie Hodgson. Outstanding servant to his club but never looked like making that step up to Int level.
This season he's looked almost there, except when the pressure has really come on like against Leinster where he just couldnt do his job right.
To be honest if he was picked and proved me wrong I'd be happy. But I get the feeling his chance had almost slipped by. Although he could take Floods spot as the older fly half in the EPS and Burns/Ford play in the Saxons.

The Leinster is an example of the bad game that every player has.  He doesn't have many.  Besides, the whole team imploded against Leinster.  Not kicking great in the second Leinster match, he still ran the attack well and helped drive the team to victory.  I see him regularly.  Watched him in training.  He has studied his art and refined his skills and improves every year.  Last year's Stevie is not this year's Stevie.

Rugby Fan wrote:Well, the Telegraph reckons Lancaster will lose Flood and has no place for Cipriani, so there'll be some shuffling in the fly half ranks.

If Flood really goes, then there is space for Myler.  George Ford would be a mistake because he has been first choice fly half for his club for exactly one-half of a season (OK 54.55% of the season).  He needs time to grow and develop.  Cipriani needs a full season to sort himself, even if Lancaster didn't develop a rash at every mention of his name.  

Look, I understand Stevie is not the second coming of Jonny, but he leads his team well, mixes it up playing flat or deep throughout a game (mostly deep against Quins due to the quicksand slow pitch), kicks at goal better than anyone in the Premiership (this season), tactical kicks are good, and has no fear to take a run.  And more than anything has played in a team with a losing record only one time - his first year in the Premiership.  He is developing the intangible of a winner.  We need to know if he can cut it at the top level.  

Frankly, what does Farrell show us that Stevie doesn't?   Stevie is 29 and his window will not remain open long, but would last through 2015, in my estimation.  Besides, who else is there?  Ford might be the answer for England for many years.  But he needs to hone his craft at Bath.  Rushing young players is usually bad.  Burns needs to put this season behind him and start over.  Farrell is the starter, but who takes over when he gets hurt?  Jonny?  Rob Andrew?

Excluding Flood, and dependent on their fitness, I would have Farrell, Burns, Ford & Cipriani at EVERY training session from now to the world cup. Think what happened to the All Blacks last time round. There needs to be an understanding in the 'half' fraternity that their in it together, and yes their all competing for the shirt but they have to understand everything about what is required to win the World Cup.

1, Farrell (if played with Twelvetrees and either Youngs or Care ahead of him).
2, Burns
3, Cipriani
4, Ford

Honestly, I think Myler if a very good Club player but he is not, nor does he have the potential to be, a TOP level international. Sorry but 'eggs is eggs'.

Mylor does seem to be injured at the moment, so does Flood they was both wincing with pain every time they kicked the ball. So at the moment would not have either of them in the England squad,..Not unless they are fully fit any way.

Ford played well today. Maybe it is time to give him a a place in the squad along side Burns.

Is Cipriani really in with a chance of even making the squad? I don't know to be honest but what about Slade? will he get a chance do you think?

I like Slade. I put him in the same grouping as other players who need a full season playing regularly in the Premiership before being considered for England. I like what I see, but I like to let players grow.

kingelderfield wrote:Honestly, I think Myler if a very good Club player but he is not, nor does he have the potential to be, a TOP level international. Sorry but 'eggs is eggs'.

Why?

doctor_grey wrote:

kingelderfield wrote:Honestly, I think Myler if a very good Club player but he is not, nor does he have the potential to be, a TOP level international. Sorry but 'eggs is eggs'.

Why?

Well for a start his Dad ......

Or that every time I see him I want to shout 'International rescue' .......

But seriously, of course he does most things very well, but I can't think where he stands out from the crowd. It’s not his defence (Farrell) creativity, vision or pace (Burns / Cipriani) potential (Ford).

Honestly where is his xfactor, his usp? I'm sorry I just don't see it.

I just cant ever imagine Myler being a top player or one who would improve England, hes nothing more than injury cover for Farrel.
Burns is horribly off form which leaves us with Ford who has potential but obvious weaknesses.
Thats it in the entire 64?
These are the only guys who are even on the radar for the next year at the development level let alone starting senior?

There has to be a concern.

Also that England hate their half backs running with the ball. Still. No wonder Floods taking early retirement.
But wheres the plan B? What do we have if Farrel gets injured? Burns or Ford arent ready to start tests. Myler? Wow

I don't think Myler would disgrace himself in an England shirt but he's not going to win us trophies. If Lancaster uses the same criteria which led him to promote Dickson, then Myler will be in his plans. Then again, we know he doesn't always go with club form since Eater would have warranted a call-up last season on that basis.

Myler has always reminded me a little of Peter Williams, our main fly half at the 1987 World Cup. It's not his fault, but that's probably one reason why I wouldn't want to end up relying on him.

Easter is 35 years old.

Myler is 29.

Not Myler's biggest fan but he's been playing well this season. Do we reward club form or not?

Personally I think yes but most people wouldn't want that - that would mean picking the top try scorer in the AP!

doctor grey you asked what does Farrell Jr show that Myler doesn't.

He's a better defender, he's stronger mentally, he's 7 years younger than Myler yet does everything that Myler does for his club side. Farrell Jr is also more experienced at the highest level.

Farrell Jr is a better player than 2 years ago and he continues to improve. Myler has probably reached his peak.


I would say the three fly halves in the 6 nations should be

1.Farrell
2.Ford
3.Cipriani or Myler


http://www.premiershiprugby.com/stats/tries.php?preset18143=2013#rd18143


I would probably start Joseph at 13 as things go.

Dickson - Myler - 12T - Tomkins - Ashton - Strettle - Goode: A backline to strike fear into the heart of every......English fan. I can hear the Stewie hmmm from here. Somebody shoot me now.

Myler's club form has been excellent yes, but it's taken him along time to find it and instead of picking a man who could 'do a job' for say 3 years until he's too old pick younger men like Farrell and Ford who have potential. I see those two and Burns battling it out for the 10 jersey for the next 10 years potentially.

Strettle has played very well for Sarries and has a good strike record, agreed. He's what though 30, pretty old for a winger and when he played against Argentina in the summer he really was not good. Was he injured or out of form perhaps? He and Wade were like chalk and cheese.

There is a definite step up between the players who perform well in the premiership and those who excel in an England shirt. The likes of Farrell and Launchbury excel, others do not unfortunately we don't usually know until we try.

Barney McGrew did it wrote:Dickson - Myler - 12T - Tomkins - Ashton - Strettle - Goode: A backline to strike fear into the heart of every......English fan. I can hear the Stewie hmmm from here. Somebody shoot me now.

Oh god

Definitely wouldn't say Farrell "excels". Launchbury definitely does

If Farrell did excel there wouldn't be so many wanting a more attacking fly half etc. Farrell is a very good young player, and I still wouldn't put any of the other guys in his place just yet, but I do want to see him improve his attacking game (for England, seems ok for Sarries) or give one of the others a go, maybe against Italy?

Farrell has looked attacking for Sarries recently though

Yep, I agree .. that's why he's still the starting fly half for me. Just need to see that same attacking quality in an England shirt.

Although it may not be all his fault, and he is being told to play a certain way for England   

I'm beginning to believe that of all our players more now you just see players ignoring their club strengths for England

Bambam I would say Farrell Jr is criticised far too much. He's still one of the best fly halves in the NH. Second only to Sexton in my opinion.

Farrell Jr was panned in the AIs because he didn't lead England to another win vs the best side in the world! When he went off England were still in touching distance too.

Alex Goode is another player not as bad as made out. 4 tries this season and in good form.

The trouble with Goode is he is slower than Brown and hasn't offered an attacking option at International level, yet isn't better enough in his defensive game to counter this, though maybe he deserves a turn with a more attacking backline and faster wingers

Haven't seen any of the Sarries game this weekend, but on Twitter Will Greenwood was raving about Alex Goode - Best player in English rugby was the phrase I think he used.

Will try to look up some highlights, what did he do that was so impressive?

Greenwood has always loved Goode he's just got an excuse to rekindle the love

Chequeredjersey true but I don't think he's done badly when representing England. I agree that at international level as an attacking threat he's not been great but I feel he's another player poorly utilised by England.

Brown suits the way England are playing more at the moment because of the way Lancaster utilises the back three (or doesn't).

Farrell does seem to stand flatter at Sarries and show more attacking intent, it's very worrying if England ask him to do the opposite.

In fairness to Farrell in the autumn much of the backline was a bit of a mess and the 10 usually gets the blame. I think competition with Ford would be good for him.

Alex Goode is also scoring tries and looking threatening, but again in the premiership, for England he just doesn't have the same impact. For me he just doesn't offer the top two inches. Brown, for all his issues with passing (see big game 6 butchered chance), breaks the gainline.

Yeah I think the backline problems in the Autumn were the largely due to the centres struggling with each other

beshocked wrote:Easter is 35 years old.

Myler is 29.

Not Myler's biggest fan but he's been playing well this season. Do we reward club form or not?

Personally I think yes but most people wouldn't want that - that would mean picking the top try scorer in the AP!

doctor grey you asked what does Farrell Jr show that Myler doesn't.

He's a better defender, he's stronger mentally, he's 7 years younger than Myler yet does everything that Myler does for his club side. Farrell Jr is also more experienced at the highest level.

Farrell Jr is a better player than 2 years ago and he continues to improve. Myler has probably reached his peak.


I would say the three fly halves in the 6 nations should be

1.Farrell
2.Ford
3.Cipriani or Myler


http://www.premiershiprugby.com/stats/tries.php?preset18143=2013#rd18143


I would probably start Joseph at 13 as things go.

Beshocked,
Part of my point is we don't really have the second coming of Jonny at fly half and that I feel Myler is playing as well as any 10 in the Premiership.  I agree Farrell is a better defender, and is younger, and frankly, we don't know his upside.  He has done extremely well for a young player. I have no problem with him as the number one fly half.  But wondering how bad we will panic if he gets injured without a tried and tested backup.  I would think Myler's window is only about two years, but can do it for now.

I can't agree about the mental toughness.  Stevie has proved enough to me.  He has calmly delivered in big games.  I think he gets a bit of a bad rap because he started as a mediocre player.  Saint's fans have never really embraced him until recently.  I think that is because he really does improve each year, even at his current age, and has made himself into quite a player.  How do we judge a player's readiness to play internationally if not on club form if he hasn't already tried and demonstrated it is a bridge too far.  How else can he be judged?  How he goes on Strictly Come Dancing?  By the way, I would prove my total unworthiness if I tried that!

The problem with other candidates for the England 10 jumper is Burns is off form, Ford should not be rushed since he does show a lot of potential, Cipriani needs to show all of us he can play a full season without imploding, and Henry Slade needs time as well.  Who else is there?

Andy Goode

Would be kind of funny to see Andy Goode on Strictly Come Dancing............

Hasn't he already been on?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sISZFkR-L3o

True little badger. You make a lot of good points.

Though I do think that Brown's awareness is a problem. It's all well and good breaking through the gainline but I have noticed with Brown that he's butchered a few try scoring opportunities for fellow backs by poor decision making, plus he made some positional mistakes in the 6 nations (admittedly he was on the wing).

Most notorious was that butchering vs Wales but I remember one match where if he had passed the ball on two occasions - once to Goode and once to Ashton they might have scored.

I like Brown - think he's a good player but he's not perfect.

Brown is a line breaker, whereas Goode is a playmaker. I feel that there is a place for both but need to be utilised properly.

This season the Sarries backs and forwards have been linking really well in attack. Quins in full flow and Saints are the same.

Something you can't accuse England of!

England need to find the fluency throughout the side - it's not just the backs or the forwards - it's all the players. I don't think the attack can be solely blamed upon the failure of the backs.

We saw with NZ that the forwards fluidly meld with their backs in a threatening attack.

But it's strange because for Quins, Sarries and Saints the players do link between forwards and backs and there's lots of those in the team!

Good points beshocked, but I disagree that there is room for both Brown and Goode, they both bring different things to the table but I think we have a distinct lack of pace if we play both of them.

Not saying they are slow, but I think one of them needs to be paired with 2 out and out speedsters in the back 3 for the best balance

Brown is the FB for me, and for the 6 Nations I would probably go Ashton and May with him

Horses for courses. Just saying

doctor_grey wrote:

beshocked wrote:Easter is 35 years old.

Myler is 29.

Not Myler's biggest fan but he's been playing well this season. Do we reward club form or not?

Personally I think yes but most people wouldn't want that - that would mean picking the top try scorer in the AP!

doctor grey you asked what does Farrell Jr show that Myler doesn't.

He's a better defender, he's stronger mentally, he's 7 years younger than Myler yet does everything that Myler does for his club side. Farrell Jr is also more experienced at the highest level.

Farrell Jr is a better player than 2 years ago and he continues to improve. Myler has probably reached his peak.


I would say the three fly halves in the 6 nations should be

1.Farrell
2.Ford
3.Cipriani or Myler


http://www.premiershiprugby.com/stats/tries.php?preset18143=2013#rd18143


I would probably start Joseph at 13 as things go.

Beshocked,
Part of my point is we don't really have the second coming of Jonny at fly half and that I feel Myler is playing as well as any 10 in the Premiership.  I agree Farrell is a better defender, and is younger, and frankly, we don't know his upside.  He has done extremely well for a young player. I have no problem with him as the number one fly half.  But wondering how bad we will panic if he gets injured without a tried and tested backup.  I would think Myler's window is only about two years, but can do it for now.

I can't agree about the mental toughness.  Stevie has proved enough to me.  He has calmly delivered in big games.  I think he gets a bit of a bad rap because he started as a mediocre player.  Saint's fans have never really embraced him until recently.  I think that is because he really does improve each year, even at his current age, and has made himself into quite a player.  How do we judge a player's readiness to play internationally if not on club form if he hasn't already tried and demonstrated it is a bridge too far.  How else can he be judged?  How he goes on Strictly Come Dancing?  By the way, I would prove my total unworthiness if I tried that!

The problem with other candidates for the England 10 jumper is Burns is off form, Ford should not be rushed since he does show a lot of potential, Cipriani needs to show all of us he can play a full season without imploding, and Henry Slade needs time as well.  Who else is there?

Doctor grey

You are a Saints fan. Of course you are going to back your man, as I back the one from my club.

My point in regards to mental toughness is that the jury is still out with Myler. As has already been mentioned international level is a completely different. Myler is unproven. Putting it frankly Myler has won nothing yet. Farrell has an AP winning medal, was part of a winning Lions tour and part of the England side who beat the ABs.

You criticised Cipriani yet he's played more internationals than Myler and has won a HC.

Farrell
Ford
Cipriani or Myler

is what I would want to see.

Not sure how Cipriani can be discounted as a potential option at 10 whereas the likes of Nowell and Watson as touted as starters on the wing.

Or how he can be critisized for his tackling and people describe Ford as the future.

It says a lot about how Lancaster see England playing that the best attacking fly half wont even make the Saxons.

Bam bam I mean there is a space for both of them in the EPS and in the future. No I don't want to see Brown back on the wing unless there is dire need.

As it stands Brown is first choice, Goode is 2nd. Discount Foden for now because he is injured.

How do people feel about 36 at the moment? Do you feel he should retain the 12 shirt or do you think Barritt or Burrell should be ahead?

What Lancaster wants is obviously different to what you all want!

I think it'll be interesting to see what Lancaster does with Burns. He's not been playing well and has been dropped but how much of this is to do with his apparent move to Leicester? I'd still have him in the squad above Cipriani and Myler.

If the reports are correct Burns is staying in the EPS (Flood ditched), that leaves England drastically short of options for the 6 nations...most likely it will be Farrell and Ford in the matchday squads. The other option is Twelvetrees being the cover and no specialist 10 picked on the bench, something Lancaster used to do as standard with the Saxons.

no 7 &1/2 surely Burns must be dropped.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/10550950/England-head-coach-Stuart-Lancaster-set-to-snub-Danny-Cipriani-and-Toby-Flood-for-Elite-Player-Squad.html

Interesting the telegraph seems to think Danny Boy won't be picked, which means either Myler will be picked or Burns retained.

For what it's worth I think they will retain Burns in the EPS with Ford and Farrell. In terms of caps Flood would always be a loss but he's made his choice (allegedly), with Cipriani I feel it's about trust. We've seen from SL's approach that he wants a good culture with England, Cips has been in good form yes but I think he's still got to show he's knuckled down for longer.

Burns needs to become consistent, he is too hot and cold at present. Playing behind the Leicester pack might help but he needs to show week in week out that he's got it.

Too soon for Henry Slade but could see him replace Ford in the Saxons perhaps.

beshocked wrote:no 7 &1/2 surely Burns must be dropped.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/10550950/England-head-coach-Stuart-Lancaster-set-to-snub-Danny-Cipriani-and-Toby-Flood-for-Elite-Player-Squad.html

Interesting the telegraph seems to think Danny Boy won't be picked, which means either Myler will be picked or Burns retained.

The report suggests that Flood is out, no Cipriani even in the Saxons and Ford or Myler in the seniors alongside Burns and Farrel.
No back up plan B "x factor" FH to the out of form Burns suggests that Farrrel has no interest in that style of play.

Myler smacks of " I wish Hodgson was still available".

I think when England pick the squad for NZ they need to think in terms of limiting psychological damage to English players who honestly have a future. Surely the ashes series has taught them that a tour to the SH can be a dangerous thing in terms of losing players permanently once their self confidence has been destroyed. And that the SH is no place to try to blood new players with any potential whatsoever.

Still a bit too much 'We're all doomed' in whats been said. We are deservedly one of the favorites for the 6N. Since this time last year we have lost a sum total of 2 games.

Least said about one of those lost games the better - as for the other one well it was a good deal closer than we could have hoped for at the time.

With injuries - compared to the other 6N sides we are in good shape. The two obvious big losses are Corbs and Manu. Corbs we can survive without. Manu - well at least we know that Tompkins isnt the answer, but there are options. With so many 'possibles' there are always going to be disappointed fans and people happy to say 'told you so' when the chosen one makes an error

Back up FH is a concern- but the main guy is on very good form with his club and doesnt break easy. The SH position is also more unsettled than we'd like, but again there are options.

GloriousEmpire wrote:I think when England pick the squad for NZ they need to think in terms of limiting psychological damage to English players who honestly have a future.  Surely the ashes series has taught them that a tour to the SH can be a dangerous thing in terms of losing players permanently once their self confidence has been destroyed. And that the SH is no place to try to blood new players with any potential whatsoever.

They could also gain a great deal from finding the courage to stand up when everything is against them. They shouldnt be afraid to fail if they can stay competitive. I also dont think SL is the type of guy to let the internal problems that did for the current England/Wales/SA mercenaries cricket team to take root in the England set up. (And it is not that long since EWSA won the ashes down under, crushing Australia in the process. Cricket is a cruel game which helps to make it so interesting)

Yeah it only took Brown 4 years to recover from his first trip to New Zealand, what harm can it do!

The NZ press inventing cowpat off field didn't help there

Ojo still hasn't recovered

There was another thread on here comparing the best 10's i.e. Carter etc. What made Carter the best was that he did all things well, he was not the best runner, not the best defender in fact not the best at anything, but was very good at all sides of his game.

I am not trying to compare Myler to DC, but he is of the same type, he has no weaknesses to exploit, he carries out all the facets of his game to a good standard.

Farrell, Burns, Ford and Cips all have areas where they are stronger than Myler, but they all have areas where they are weaker as well. It is a question of balancing those strengths and weaknesses to get the bets out of the team, not necessarily the individual.

I am going to show my age here, John Spencer was never the best 12 in England, but he proved to be the best foil for the exceptional talent that was David Duckham and was therefore played over the other players. The best player is not always the best selection.

We don't know what the team instructions are for Farrell, but in Argentina last year, England with Burns and Myler played more on the gain line and looked good against an average Argentine side it has to be said. In my biased opinion, Myler looked better in the opening game in that he had more control, Burns did the flashy stuff that caught the headlines, but was not always in control of the game and made a number of errors that against a better side would have proved costly.

Beshocked, the jury is out on everyone with regard to mental toughness until they are tried. To use that argument would mean that you never cap any new players.

I don't think he can drop Burns beshocked especially with Flood going to France. If he's going by club form alone he probably should but there's always more to it than that.

We just have to hope that if so many of the problems with Burns are down to environment that, given a chance in the England set up, in a different environment he can show more form