England Squad for NZ Tour and 6N

First topic message reminder :

And I've posed it in that order for a reason. England have already said that their objective is to win the 6N (with France away first up, that's a pretty big ask...) but thy also have a 3 game tour to NZ coming up in which the first game will be played without the AP finalists.

So the challenge is - how do you put together the 6N squad so that whoever makes the final, you have enough players who've played together by the end of the 6N that England can field a half-decent side with players from the top two sides missing? I suppose the good news is that for once the EPS is a nice mix of players from various teams, but a Saints-Sarries final would be a serious hindrance.

The EPS on 1 Aug looked like this. Who would be your squad? And how would you prepare them?

England senior EPS:

Forwards: David Attwood (Bath Rugby), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Alex Corbisiero (Northampton Saints), Tom Croft (Leicester Tigers), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), Matt Kvesic (Gloucester Rugby), Joe Launchbury (London Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby), Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Billy Vunipola (Saracens), Mako Vunipola (Saracens), David Wilson (Bath Rugby), Tom Wood (Northampton Saints), Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Backs: Chris Ashton (Saracens), Brad Barritt (Saracens), Mike Brown (Harlequins), Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby), Danny Care (Harlequins), Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints), Owen Farrell (Saracens), Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers), Ben Foden (Northampton Saints), Alex Goode (Saracens), Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby), Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby), Christian Wade (London Wasps), Marland Yarde (London Irish), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

England Saxons:

Forwards: Calum Clark (Northampton Saints), Jordan Crane (Leicester Tigers), Paul Doran Jones (Harlequins), Will Fraser (Saracens), James Haskell (London Wasps), Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs), Graham Kitchener (Leicester Tigers), George Kruis (Saracens), Kearnan Myall (London Wasps), David Paice (London Irish), George Robson (Harlequins), Ed Slater (Leicester Tigers), Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks), Thomas Waldrom (Leicester Tigers), Luke Wallace (Harlequins), Rob Webber (Bath Rugby), Nick Wood (Gloucester Rugby)

Backs: Anthony Allen (Leicester Tigers), Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints), Elliot Daly (London Wasps), George Ford (Bath Rugby), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby), Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby), Ugo Monye (Harlequins), Stephen Myler (Northampton Saints), Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs), Charlie Sharples (Gloucester Rugby), Joe Simpson (London Wasps), David Strettle (Saracens), Mathew Tait (Leicester Tigers), Joel Tomkins (Saracens), Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens)

propdavid_london wrote:Are we all in agreement that Tompkins shouldn't be in contention?  
I know he is injured at the moment - but did he do anything to merit his continued presence in the EPS?

He looked out of his depth. To be honest I was amazed when he was called up. He always looked like just a solid club player. It appears that may be enough if you play for the right club.

beshocked we may have to agree to disagree on Ashton! To sum up my feelings on him 'he deserves neither such praise nor such censure'.

The issue I see with 13 is that SL will pick a fit Manu everytime and seems to build a game plan on that, so a 13 with more guile means changing the game plan and I don't believe the coaches can deliver on that effectively at the moment.

propdavid - I feel for Tompkins but yes unfortunately in 3 games he really didn't show anything near international class.

Agree that Tuilagi is a shoe in if fit.
I must admit that I don't have a huge amount of confidence in Catt running/coaching the backline. I don't know if its a clash with the defensive coach but all England performances really stem from a solid defence and offering very little in attack.
The better sides all know that that the way to beat England is to just be clinical and cut out the errors.

propdavid_london wrote:If you had to pick 2 inside centres and 2 outsides (irrelevant of current fitness) -
EPS -
Twelvetrees/Barritt
Tuilagi/Burrell

Saxons -
Eastmond/Tompkins
Joseph/Trinder

I'd agree with this, in the order you've listed. With Tuilagi out I'd promote Joseph to the EPS, as cover for Burrell.

little badger we won't have Manu in the 6 nations so there's no point worrying about him till he comes back. Even with Manu fit there were problems in the backline so why not try and find a new solution?

propdavid london agree with that. Mike Catt seems out of his depth. No Tomkins shouldn't be in the EPS as things stand.

beshocked, do you think Joseph has shown enough form to be included at 13, I know he was promising a while back but seems to have stalled a bit. His try at the weekend showed good strength but aside from that I can't recall him threatening a lot with ball in hand.

Does Barritt and JJ offer good enough hands as a centre pairing to get the wings involved, i'm not sure.

So who next for the England attack coach position, Alex King how's he coming along?!

little badger to be honest I don't know the options at 13 are bleak. Would rather pick a 13 than a 12 out of position.

Perhaps they don't offer enough but I don't particularly like any of the potential options.

Barritt showed good enough hands vs Gloucester but admittedly he had Bosch at 13.... if only he was English......

Alex King - would be a good shout. Done well with Clermont and Saints.

Joseph has had a very unlucky run of injuries and has barely played since the SA tour the other year. He did feature in the Argentina games this year and set up Strettle with an excellent step and offload through 2 tacklers. He scored a cracking try the other week and has been picking great lines for bath quite regularly. I'm quite fan of him, he's a different option to Manu and is more of an all round footballer that has great pass and a decent passing game.

I'd like to see him start with 36 but away, against france, with an inexperienced centre and winger (May i'm assuming) doesn't sound like the smartest idea, i reckon Barritt will be in there somewhere though i'm not too sure how i feel about that.

Part of me also thinks sod it, our forwards can provide a solid platform and decent ball, we should get players in who would thrive off that. 36 and JJ would compliment each other well and are both threats in their own right with good passing and kicking games as well as solidity in defence, they have a few caps each so aren't completely new to test rugby. We should also realise that we need to be building towards the WC, we know what barritt does, so why not try someone new with potential to be a lot better?

heres my team

Marler
Hartley
Cole
Lawes
Launchberry
Wood
Robshaw
Vunipola
Youngs
Farrell
May
36
JJ
Ashton
Brown

M. Vunipola
T. Youngs
Wilson
Attwood
Morgan
Care
Burns/Ford (if he's available i'd prefer flood for his experience)
Eastmond

belovedfrosties I think that's a pretty good selection though I would definitely question the selection of Eastmond.

Just as a utility who has shown good form recently. Covers centres and back 3 (i'd keep him on the wing and move May to FB), 36 provides FH cover. I'd much rather see him on the pitch than Goode who has shown (just like tomkins) that he isn't international class imo.

belovedfrosties disagree about Goode. I think he's been unfairly hampered with Brown on the wing.

May at full back.....

I suppose they must be world class. They don't play for Sarries.... everyone knows that our backs are $%^&.

I may be misinterpreting what you're saying Beshocked, but it seems like you're blaming Goodes poor performances (in his favoured position) on Brown, who was playing wing and did a very good job considering he's never played there before.

Was it Browns fault that Goode would frequently get the ball, run to the defensive line, perform a pointless side step before running straight into the nearest defender and getting driven back?

belovedfrosties I am saying the the back three and team as a whole was hampered by Brown on the wing. Not his fault but numerous times he was defensively exposed. E.g. vs Scotland and Wales. Brown should have never been in put in that position. I blame Lancaster much more so than Brown by the way.

That still doesn't explain why Goode was so poor whenever he got the ball

belovedfrosties I think the criticism is overly harsh.

He's a good premiership player, but at international level hes found wanting. he has no step, no pace and isn't very strong, he needs to have at least one of those up to test standard to compete. whilst brown may not be the fastest he has a decent step and great strength and tenacity. Goode is a second playmaker but i have never seen him do this at test level (bar the fiji? game) and i think SL has come to realise that he just isn't up to scratch.

beshocked wrote:belovedfrosties disagree about Goode. I think he's been unfairly hampered with Brown on the wing.

May at full back.....

I suppose they must be world class. They don't play for Sarries.... everyone knows that our backs are $%^&.

There are two people I know who looked at Tomkins for Sarries and thought 'Yeah, he's an international player in the making' and they are you and Stuart Lancaster. You have some cracking English players, even Wigglesworth's form looked good last time I saw him play, but Tomkins and Goode for me have never done enough to warrant selection. Goode is a fine player and a decent back-up but to better options, so with players injured, fair enough. Tomkins is a big, useless oaf. In my opinion.

First priority for lancaster's England is not to embarrass themselves off the field, the next is to repeat that feat on the field.

I can't see anything but conservative selections. Both in style and in personality.

GloriousEmpire wrote:First priority for lancaster's England is not to embarrass themselves off the field, the next is to repeat that feat on the field.

I can't see anything but conservative selections. Both in style and in personality.

You really are full of it GE. They could do with you down the local works, there’s plenty of it there that needs stirring.

Keep to the rugby and you might gain respect, carry on with this turdtalk and you'll show yourself for the wum you are.

I tell you that this IS part of lancaster's thinking. England need a "clean" tour to reinstate some sort of respect after their last couple
Of shambolic debacles.

GloriousEmpire wrote:I tell you that this IS part of lancaster's thinking. England need a "clean" tour to reinstate some sort of respect after their last couple
Of shambolic debacles.

GE = tedious wum...........

Wait it's 2014.

And GE's still going on about things that occurred in 2011?

And those actions occurred under a different coach and to a totally different set of players.

Why WUM so poorly about silly things?

On Lancasters motivational speakers list this year:
Keith Robinson
Robin Brooke
Sione Lauaki
Ali Williams
Jermoe Kaino
Byron Kheller
Zac Guilford
etc etc.
Mind at least they have the decency to get most of their convictions in New Zealand where the names can be suppressed and it doesnt embarrass the country so much.

Joking aside though this is what Lancaster keep harping on about:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/active/10427619/The-All-Blacks-guide-to-being-successful-off-the-field.html

Gloria will love this quote mind

They wanted to overcome their habit of choking.

The odd thing is its exactly the sort of mumbo jumbo BS that Andy Flower gets slated for. Probably because hes rubbish at it.

yappysnap wrote:Wait it's 2014.

And GE's still going on about things that occurred in 2011?

And those actions occurred under a different coach and to a totally different set of players.

Why WUM so poorly about silly things?

Because England haven't toured since then?

GloriousEmpire wrote:First priority for lancaster's England is not to embarrass themselves off the field, the next is to repeat that feat on the field.

I can't see anything but conservative selections. Both in style and in personality.

I agree.  Based on Lancaster's selections so far, his selections and game plan have indeed been conservative.  Though I don't know Lancaster, it does seem to be his personality from what I have seen from tv interviews, comments, selections and playing style.  Not quite so conservative as playing not to lose, but certainly a cautious 'field position and take the points' approach.   He is now bedded in as coach.  So let's see how he plays his cards from here.

Basing his team around Farrell pretty much says it all.

if we had a significantly, obviously better option at 10 i am sure SL would base the team around them instead.

gotta work with what we have.

england have always played conservatively, if by that you mean big forwards, big defense, percentage rugby. we have rarely had the players with the combo of flair and consistency to realistically try anything else. so for us, it's the right strategy to play and pick "conservatively".

GloriousEmpire wrote:Basing his team around Farrell pretty much says it all.

Still good enough to beat NZ last year and give them a tough match this year.

Plus the absence of Barritt and Tuilagi in the centres obviously had a huge impact (defensively and offensively respectively).

GloriousEmpire wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Wait it's 2014.

And GE's still going on about things that occurred in 2011?

And those actions occurred under a different coach and to a totally different set of players.

Why WUM so poorly about silly things?

Because England haven't toured since then?

SA - 2012
Arg - 2013

GE talking balls as normal......just ignore the bore, he'll lose interest and spout his bile on another thread.

Yawn. England haven't toured New zealand since then. Ffs it's amazing you guys can tie your own shoelaces. Or do you wear boots?

Why don't you go back to the house prices thread rather than get abusive and wummy here!

We've toured twice since 2011 GE.

If you're going to wum at least know your facts.

You're getting a little embarrassing of late.

Goode had an excellent game vs Ireland last year - where his good rugby brain and good boot meant he was in the right place at the right time and could return kicks with interest. Otherwise I'd agree with frosties. He might have made a better fly half (might still I guess) but there are much better international quality 15's available

Well technically the World Cup isn't a tour, so our last tour to NZ was 2008. Get your facts right GE

Looks like George Ford has pushed Flood out of the EPS.

Reported in several newspapers today.

Scrumpy - I think that was pretty expected, I know we are losing an experienced player but no point having him around if he can't play in the WC. Ford is playing well and deserves his chance all for that.

I accept we have had a lot of injuries to centres etc, but a lot of the issues with our backline I firmly lay the blame at the coaching teams door. The progression plan for young players has not been half as successful as the forwards seems to have been.

Overall though I am a staying positive, this 6 nations will show us I think that the pack is there and just needs to keep playing together. What I would love to know is why England have had so many centre issues for what feels like the last 10 years!!

lostinwales Goode is also good in wet weather (so are Barritt and Farrell). Not a bad skill to have when you think that the RWC in particular will be played in Autumn.

little badger on reflection I wouldn't be against Watson as the 23rd man vs France as of now. Seems like every man and his dog loves Watson - they must be seeing something and I am missing.

I fail to see it either Beshocked although it's hard to argue with his 1 try in 16 games.

Why is Watson, who is surely a FB being pushed as a winger, over the likes of Wade, May etc players who have proven their abilities in the league...espeically Wade. Is it not his turn for a chance??

Watson is a very intelligent player with a fantastic skill set for someone so young, if you can't see that Beshocked then I fear for you.

Of course he isn't a finished article and he won't win England a world cup in 2015 or finish the Aviva top try scorer but SL has to keep an eye on him and give him a chance to stake a claim this year if he keeps improving. To be fair to him most of his games have been at FB.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Why is Watson, who is surely a FB being pushed as a winger, over the likes of Wade, May etc players who have proven their abilities in the league...espeically Wade. Is it not his turn for a chance??

If Wade was playing I dont think there would be a debate. The first choice wingers going into the AI were Wade and Yarde - but then the curse of JSD struck.

beshocked and pooly - Well we love to build em up only to knock em down! In all seriousness we won't know until he's tried, which I think he will be in the 6 nations and then if it all goes t*ts up (after a run of games to allow him to bed in) I'll happily await the return of Wade and Yarde from injury!

My apologies, i hadnt realised Wade was injured. How long is he out for?

Scrumpy I understand he has a great skill set for someone his age. Doesn't mean I would start him for England just yet.

little badger not against giving someone new a go but wouldn't throw him in the deep end vs France away as a starter.

It's a difficult balancing act between playing someone too early and someone too late.

GeordieFalcon wrote:My apologies, i hadnt realised Wade was injured. How long is he out for?

I remember reading 6 months when the injury happened, just after the AIs, someone else can probably confirm

Ouch...ok he's out then surely next in line after him (with Yarde out aswell) is May?

beshocked wrote:Scrumpy I understand he has a great skill set for someone his age. Doesn't mean I would start him for England just yet.

I wouldn't start him just yet, but he is more worthy of a place in the squad than a diving winger who has been out of form for his Country since 2011!

GloriousEmpire wrote:Yawn. England haven't toured New zealand since then. Ffs it's amazing you guys can tie your own shoelaces. Or do you wear boots?

Touché. Now foxtrot oscar and go and ruin another thread.

Scrumpy wrote:

beshocked wrote:Scrumpy I understand he has a great skill set for someone his age. Doesn't mean I would start him for England just yet.

I wouldn't start him just yet, but he is more worthy of a place in the squad than a diving winger who has been out of form for his Country since 2011!

Thats a curious debate though Scrumpy...funnily enough bar one spell, he's generally been in form for his club scoring tries regularly as indeed has Strettle another berated on this site. So surely this lack of form is down to the style of play and performance of the half backs and centres....not just the winger himself?

Bit of both.

He did take a general dip for a while then looked to be really forcing the issue a bit after the world cup and stick he was taking in the press, maybe the lack of god ball getting out to him added to it but I remember a period when he was an absolute butterfingers for England.
It may partly be the fault of the player that the style doesnt suit him and that hes frustrated, but ultimately if you arent delivering in the team environment then should the environment change or someone bought in who can flourish?

Like all players he can only trade on club form for so long. He has to bring it to the international stage as well otherwise the focus will be on his weaknesses (tackling, braincells) not as it used to be on his try scoring.
We can see it as a failure of the Lancaster era to produce tries from back, especially wings and fullbacks. Still doesnt mean that trying other players isnt one way to address the problem.