England Squad for NZ Tour and 6N

First topic message reminder :

And I've posed it in that order for a reason. England have already said that their objective is to win the 6N (with France away first up, that's a pretty big ask...) but thy also have a 3 game tour to NZ coming up in which the first game will be played without the AP finalists.

So the challenge is - how do you put together the 6N squad so that whoever makes the final, you have enough players who've played together by the end of the 6N that England can field a half-decent side with players from the top two sides missing? I suppose the good news is that for once the EPS is a nice mix of players from various teams, but a Saints-Sarries final would be a serious hindrance.

The EPS on 1 Aug looked like this. Who would be your squad? And how would you prepare them?

England senior EPS:

Forwards: David Attwood (Bath Rugby), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Alex Corbisiero (Northampton Saints), Tom Croft (Leicester Tigers), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), Matt Kvesic (Gloucester Rugby), Joe Launchbury (London Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby), Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Billy Vunipola (Saracens), Mako Vunipola (Saracens), David Wilson (Bath Rugby), Tom Wood (Northampton Saints), Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Backs: Chris Ashton (Saracens), Brad Barritt (Saracens), Mike Brown (Harlequins), Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby), Danny Care (Harlequins), Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints), Owen Farrell (Saracens), Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers), Ben Foden (Northampton Saints), Alex Goode (Saracens), Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby), Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby), Christian Wade (London Wasps), Marland Yarde (London Irish), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

England Saxons:

Forwards: Calum Clark (Northampton Saints), Jordan Crane (Leicester Tigers), Paul Doran Jones (Harlequins), Will Fraser (Saracens), James Haskell (London Wasps), Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs), Graham Kitchener (Leicester Tigers), George Kruis (Saracens), Kearnan Myall (London Wasps), David Paice (London Irish), George Robson (Harlequins), Ed Slater (Leicester Tigers), Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks), Thomas Waldrom (Leicester Tigers), Luke Wallace (Harlequins), Rob Webber (Bath Rugby), Nick Wood (Gloucester Rugby)

Backs: Anthony Allen (Leicester Tigers), Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints), Elliot Daly (London Wasps), George Ford (Bath Rugby), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby), Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby), Ugo Monye (Harlequins), Stephen Myler (Northampton Saints), Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs), Charlie Sharples (Gloucester Rugby), Joe Simpson (London Wasps), David Strettle (Saracens), Mathew Tait (Leicester Tigers), Joel Tomkins (Saracens), Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens)

Right changing the subject slightly   ..........scrum half, what's happened to Youngs recently is he just knackered after the lions tour? A lot of people seem to have Care above him on the bench. Dickson's form seems to have dipped a bit in recent weeks perhaps?

Is this the pecking order?

Dickson, Care, Youngs, Wigglesworth

Lancaster has always had a crush on Dickson. Probably because hes less likely to run with the ball.

Thats true Peter, but its not Ashtons fault that Lancaster keeps picking in a system that he appears not to relish. Surely this should bring lancasters selection ability into question?

A player can only keep performing for his club...what more can he do?

In this case as i see nothing changing in the near future, maybe Ashton would be best left with Sarries and another winger like May (due to all the injuries) given a shot.
Who knows...

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Lancaster has always had a crush on Dickson. Probably because hes less likely to run with the ball.

Oh come on Peter...thats not just Dickson...thats why he picks most of the current England team   

How is Dan Robson looking? Surely he is ready for a place in the Saxons

Bambam - Robson should be starting over Cowan for Gloucs and when he does this I think he'll really stake his claim.

Apparently England are announcing a 35 man training squad for the 6nations tomorrow at 3 alongside the EPS announcement, so does that mean we will be able to end the debate or crank it up a notch?

Dont forget there'll be alot of players in that squad who are currently injured, which will have people furious....but they forget that this way they can keep those like Yarde, Wade, Tuilagi in the squad, yet they can simply have a player called up to replace them in time for the 6n....

Lets see how many forget that!   

Now I need clarification here, I have conflicting reports.

1) Tomorrow's announcement is just the EPS and will contain injured players etc.

2) The announcement is not just the EPS but also the 6 nations training squad, which was due to be announced later.

Anyone?

On form alone Care should be the starting 9 for
England by a mile. And should have been last season as well.

Unfortunately the coaches can't seem to figure out how to use him and the game plans are best designed for players who don't run with the ball.

Should be Care, Youngs, Dickson

Will be Dickson, Youngs, Care

Yappysnap the problem is that Care generally flatters to deceive for England. Very good club player though.

I think Wigglesworth might have something to say about all of this too. Playing well - was on fire vs Leicester.

If Farrell is going to be picked at 10 then might as well pick his 9 team mate.    Not going to happen of course.

beshocked wrote:Yappysnap the problem is that Care generally flatters to deceive for England. Very good club player though.

I think Wigglesworth might have something to say about all of this too. Playing well - was on fire vs Leicester.

If Farrell is going to be picked at 10 then might as well pick his 9 team mate.    Not going to happen of course.

Yappy is saying that is because of the differences in gameplan though, and I agree with him. It is both Care's "fault" for not having the game to adapt to what England "need" but also the coaches for playing in a way that seems to fail to get the best out of several of their better players

little_badger wrote:Now I need clarification here, I have conflicting reports.

1) Tomorrow's announcement is just the EPS and will contain injured players etc.
2) The announcement is not just the EPS but also the 6 nations training squad, which was due to be announced later.

Anyone?

Im pretty sure its that one mate...at least thats the one i think it is...

ChequeredJersey wrote:

beshocked wrote:Yappysnap the problem is that Care generally flatters to deceive for England. Very good club player though.

I think Wigglesworth might have something to say about all of this too. Playing well - was on fire vs Leicester.

If Farrell is going to be picked at 10 then might as well pick his 9 team mate.    Not going to happen of course.

Yappy is saying that is because of the differences in gameplan though, and I agree with him. It is both Care's "fault" for not having the game to adapt to what England "need" but also the coaches for playing in a way that seems to fail to get the best out of several of their better players

I think thats an understatement CJ...id say many of the players arent playing their game they would for their club and its causing a lot of problems....i think the gameplan is too restrictive and i wouldnt be surprised if they were warned about risk taking...

Care plays more like a French style 9 than any of our other options. Seems as if Lancaster wants the fly half to be the main playmaker, rather than the scrum half

beshocked wrote:Yappysnap the problem is that Care generally flatters to deceive for England. Very good club player though.

I think Wigglesworth might have something to say about all of this too. Playing well - was on fire vs Leicester.

If Farrell is going to be picked at 10 then might as well pick his 9 team mate.    Not going to happen of course.

I'd actually tend to agree. I've always been a fan of Ben Youngs he has shown at times that he could be one of the world's best. At present though, much like Freddie Burns his form is patchy at best.

With that in mind i'd actually like to see us go into a game with a 23-man view of the game for once. In France away i'd like to see 9. R Wigglesworth 10. O Farrell with a bench of 21. D Care 22. F Burns

In reality Dickson has done nothing wrong but Wigglesworth martials the forwards well much like Dickson and his kicking game is the best of all the scrum halves. Combined with OF I think it would be a good controlling halfback pairing. Care and Burns to bring a different approach from the bench as and when required.

On Dan Robson he's a class act and i'd like to see him in the Saxons, he already deserves to be starting ahead of Cowan consistently.

Actually i've had a bit of a pet theory about the generally held view that the game breaks up in the last quarter and that's when a bit of flair can exploit a tiring defence.

With increasingly superior fitness, particularly amongst international teams, is it more of a truism to say that teams are vulnerbale at the start of a game when nerves are evident and tensions high? Having your flair players ready to go from the off, trying to put a team away early and then controlling from the second half could be a better tactic? What do ya'll think?

I think that holds true at Club level, actually, but from memory the scores at International level tend to show it is usually close at 60 mins then a team pulls away after that, or often comes back, so I disagree but I don't have the time to check up on the facts regarding that, it's merely a hunch

Is the "last quarter" theory more down to the disruption caused by the introduction of vast swathes of new players across the field? There must be a case for staggering the introduction of the replacements through the game (possibly from half time on), in order to replace people with fading fitness, but not disrupt the whole team at once?

I loathe the apparently predetermined 1hr sub point, when they all march on.

I'm a fan of Danny Care for Quins and read a lot on here about this current England set up not being able to get the best out of him but Care has been around around the national team longer than the current management yet has never truly established himself or stood out regardless of the coaching set up/tactics. Could it just be that he is not as effective at international level where defenses are generally a higher standard?

Yes it is possible

Although in the past (before Lancaster), it wasn't so much any aspect of his play that was disappointing as the way he'd do something really stupid and give away the ball or a penalty for no reason

Totally agree on Care. Nobody can doubt his form for Quins but he's never really shown this for England.

I just don't think his game suits the Int stage, he's an instinct type player and there's less space to exploit generally.

He's a fine bench option though and a solid backup for Youngs.

Id disagree, maybe there is some element of variable performances and less space to play at international level nullifying his game a bit but its far from the only reason hes never really nailed down the starting spot for a length of time. His discipline has been the main thing thats held him back, whether the yellow card that made Johnson hulk out or his drink problems (remember why he missed out on Lancasters first squads!) then his ludicrous haircut.
Hes had dips in form and flipped flopped with Youngs as the starter for a long time.

Lancaster now though is dead set on a passing scrum half. He did this to Youngs too, dumping him for Dickson. And kept dumping Flood for Farrel.

Under previous regimes and at the start of this one its been his discipline as often as his form thats lost him his place. He missed the world cup through injury just when he looked to have made himslef first choice. Now its a case of them not valuing his and Youngs primary asset, their running game, over Dicksons... the ability to quickly through a pass at a space regardless of whether theres an England player their or not.

England under Lancaster have kept away from running half backs full stop.

"England under Lancaster have kept away from running half backs full stop.

Youngs has been the prefered SH until recently. He's had a few injuries which have kept him out of tests but he's generally been 1st choice.

Rather ironic that you state SL prefers a passing scrum half yet I'd have Dickson as the worst passing player from that trio....he's awful.

I think all are pretty much agreed on the first choice pack, as previously posted (Corbs in for Marler being the only change).

In the backs I want a complete overhaul and would like to see us build towards a backline that contains attacking threats and pace across the field.

9. Care
10. Cipriani/Ford
11. Yarde/May
12. Burrell
13. Tuilagi
14. Wade
15. Foden/Brown

The way we have been going, England are way too predictable and the forwards have been winning us the majority of games that have been won.

Put a serious bunch of strike runners (who can also defend - a moot point with some of those guys*), and I'm sure we'll have teams worried.

* Defence can be worked on. Cipriani's has improved significantly this season.

Wade is small, but he does bring down players and was rarely embarrassed in the 7s team.

Tuilagi often breaks the defensive line looking for a big hit and leaves a gap. This can be coached out of him.

Plus ditch Andy Farrell from the coaching team; Imo he's the main reason for the stodge we've endured. Who to replace him?? Open for debate.

I really would like o see the Burrell/Tuilagi combo played. It could be awesome.

Absolutely, yappy - but we need a 9 and 10 to realise the possibility. Our current backs do not worry the oppo and are easy to defend against.

Yes like the look of that team above.

However, any kicker at the highest level needs to be up near the 80% mark & right now only Farrell & Myler are there, the others are well behind ( figures were on the BT Rugby last night).
Until the other FHs up their kicking %s then they will never (rightly or wrongly) start.
Right now Ford looks the obvious choice for the bench in the 6Ns. Looking ahead I would like to see both Cips & Ford to up their kicking %s & there would then be a stronger case for them to start ahead of Farrell on the tour.

Burns needs his mojo back.

Hound of Harrow wrote:I think all are pretty much agreed on the first choice pack, as previously posted (Corbs in for Marler being the only change).

In the backs I want a complete overhaul and would like to see us build towards a backline that contains attacking threats and pace across the field.

9. Care
10. Cipriani/Ford
11. Yarde/May
12. Burrell
13. Tuilagi
14. Wade
15. Foden/Brown

The way we have been going, England are way too predictable and the forwards have been winning us the majority of games that have been won.

Put a serious bunch of strike runners (who can also defend - a moot point with some of those guys*), and I'm sure we'll have teams worried.

* Defence can be worked on. Cipriani's has improved significantly this season.

Wade is small, but he does bring down players and was rarely embarrassed in the 7s team.

Tuilagi often breaks the defensive line looking for a big hit and leaves a gap. This can be coached out of him.

Plus ditch Andy Farrell from the coaching team; Imo he's the main reason for the stodge we've endured. Who to replace him?? Open for debate.

Where would you like me to start with that's wrong with your comment?

Firstly I feel you are making players and coaches from a certain club the scapegoats for the failing of the England side.

Why is it that only certain players from certain clubs are held accountable for team failings?

When would you do this complete overhaul? Tuilagi,Yarde and Wade will be missing during the 6 nations. After that England face a very tough away tour to NZ.

Now onto the team you picked.

Care - excellent club player but in my opinion has flattered to deceive at international level.

Ford - sure he has potential, but that's all it is. Doubts whether he's big enough. His experience in high level matches is very limited. Needs to work on place kicking and defence.

Cipriani - showing good club form this season but international rugby is another kettle of fish. Had one good game for England in the past. Again he's not actually that experienced. Still unsure whether he will implode on the international stage or not.

Yarde - inexperienced, again another player that hasn't been challenged in the HC or internationally.

Burrell - showing good form this season but no experience at international level. Hasn't played that many high level games at club level.

Tuilagi - excellent strike runner but needs to work on his passing and awareness at international level.

Wade - inexperienced but good potential. Not got much experience vs good defences e.g. in the HC or internationally.

Brown/Foden - both have sufficient experience but both have missed important tackles in recent games costing England dear so hardly perfect.


General summary -  mostly unproven and inexperienced, doubts whether that centre partnership is creative enough, how and when is that team meant to gel? Doubts whether it would be able to defend sufficiently well. I think that team if picked vs NZ would get ripped to pieces defensively.

The most important thing though is that I believe you've picked individuals, not players who will become a strong unit. A team will always beat a bunch of individuals - players need to build an understanding. I see none of that in your team.


Andy Farrell might well be the problem but please tell me - what is Mike Catt doing? Why is it that England's failing attack is blamed upon just one man/one club?

I'm not convinced that Dickson is 1st choice SH moving forwards.

For the AI Youngs was definitely suffering a post Lions hangover ( and there was the shoulder injury he got on Lions duty) so its not surprising he wasnt picked.

I am trying to remember but guess Care had some issues at the time also?

Anyways Dickson was playing very well for his club at the time and the thinking was he could offer something different.

Getting a feeling that Ford is going to be blooded at some point in the 6Ns seeing as Burns is being left out of Glos team. If that's the case surely 36 will start at 12 with him just so we have a kicking option as thats the 1 big problem with Ford at the moment. Or maybe even Daly at 13?

GeordieFalcon wrote:Why is Watson, who is surely a FB being pushed as a winger, over the likes of Wade, May etc players who have proven their abilities in the league...espeically Wade. Is it not his turn for a chance??

GF, I think it's the other way round, isn't it? For the U20s last year, Nowell was the FB and Watson the winger, but now they finds themselves switched around for their clubs?

Austin made some really sensible comments yesterday on the 6 nations squad on the mid week BT rugby show but bizarrely no mention of Mako at LH by any of the pundits.

Has Mullan somehow managed to leapfrog Mako?

He's fallen below Marler in my eyes who was very impressive in the AIs in comparison to Mako who was up and down with the Lions. Think the combo of Marler to start with Mako off the bench is still the better one for England. Both been good in the league so far.

lostinwales wrote:I'm not convinced that Dickson is 1st choice SH moving forwards.

For the AI Youngs was definitely suffering a post Lions hangover ( and there was the shoulder injury he got on Lions duty) so its not surprising he wasnt picked.

I am trying to remember but guess Care had some issues at the time also?

Anyways Dickson was playing very well for his club at the time and the thinking was he could offer something different.

The fact that every 6N after a Lions tour has been won by the French implies to me that he will still be having a Lions hangover

The new EPS and larger 6N training squad may well be interesting (as will the squad to tour NZ). The actual 6N matchday squad is unlikely to be. Stewie was chosen as coach largely because he is conservative and defence-minded. So much so that the unfortunate incident with Wade/Yarde’s (non) selection gave him a nose-bleed he won’t forget and he’ll revert to type. Here’s the 6N team (barring any more injuries):
Marler
Hartley
Cole
Lawes
Launchberry
Wood
Vunipola
Robshaw
Dickson
Farrell
12T & Barritt
Strettle
Brown
Ashton

Vunipola
Youngs
Wilson
Attwood
Morgan
Youngs
Goode
JJ

FH will be covered by 12T and/or Goode.

It’s goodnight England if Wood, Robshaw & Farrell get injured.

Nah, as Vunipola covers 6 and Haskell is a multipurpose back up option, we can just about deal with an injury to Robshaw or Wood

Chequeredjersey who plays at 7 if Robshaw is injured?

The only option is an out of form Ksevic. Such a shame Will Fraser is injured. Perhaps Wallace should replace Ksevic?

Perhaps a recall for Clark.....

It's odd there seems to be a lack of English 7s in the AP.

6 nations squad

http://www.espnscrum.com/england/rugby/story/210573.html#3KcTMCX7LJwA8rrF.99

Reports across the press suggest Gloucester's Jonny May, Exeter's Jack Nowell and Bath's Anthony Watson will be called up for England's back three while Luther Burrell is also expected to get the nod. Stephen Myler and George Ford will come into the squad in place of the out of form Freddie Burns and Toby Flood, who will leave the Tigers at the end of the season for a move to France.

The kids are being promoted to fill the injury gaps, and the previous cover stepping up to the matchday side.

Almost using the elite system as its intended to work!

England do have a pretty settled side, injuries are the driving force behind changes aside from the odd example like Flood.

beshocked wrote:Chequeredjersey who plays at 7 if Robshaw is injured?

The only option is an out of form Ksevic. Such a shame Will Fraser is injured. Perhaps Wallace should replace Ksevic?

Perhaps a recall for Clark.....

It's odd there seems to be a lack of English 7s in the AP.

Haskell played a lot of rugby at 7 including tests. Wood another option to move over.
Its not like Robshaw is a specialist 7 and England will be losing McCaw and only having a tin of custard to cover.

I think Stewie plans to put the tin of custard on the wing.

I was thinking Wood or Haskell to 7

Barney McGrew did it wrote:I think Stewie plans to put the tin of custard on the wing.

Or at fullback where they have a 'bird's eye' view of the game?

 

So inconsiderate of Lancs to name his squad at 3pm, doesn't he know I wanted to have a whole day of whinging about it on v2, now I'll have a couple of hours at best

PSW if that's the case that's pretty good.

Moving Wood out of position worked wonders in the 6 nations didn't it?

Also Haskell's not playing for Wasps at the moment.

Haskell has never really impressed me in any of the backrow.

Robshaw might not be a specialist 7 but he's been a very consistent performer for England, he seems to work well with Wood at 6.

I would prefer this backrow if Wood is injured -

Robshaw,Wallace, Vunipola.

Wallace would at least be in the backrow with a fellow club team mate.

6 is not necessarily a problem but 7 is.

Yeah, but I don't see 7 as out of position for Wood. To use terms others seem happier with, he is a 6.5 meaning he is equally at home at 6 or 7. I don't really agree with the distinction between the 2

Chequeredjersey how much of his rugby has he played at 7? Plus even if you're right - by taking out Robshaw you change the whole dynamic of the England backrow. Balance is so important.

I feel that if you take out either Wood or Robshaw you significantly weaken it.

Barney McGrew did it wrote:The new EPS and larger 6N training squad may well be interesting (as will the squad to tour NZ). The actual 6N matchday squad is unlikely to be. Stewie was chosen as coach largely because he is conservative and defence-minded. So much so that the unfortunate incident with Wade/Yarde’s (non) selection gave him a nose-bleed he won’t forget and he’ll revert to type. Here’s the 6N team (barring any more injuries):
Marler
Hartley
Cole
Lawes
Launchberry
Wood
Vunipola
Robshaw
Dickson
Farrell
12T & Barritt
Strettle
Brown
Ashton

Vunipola
Youngs
Wilson
Attwood
Morgan
Youngs
Goode
JJ

FH will be covered by 12T and/or Goode.

It’s goodnight England if Wood, Robshaw & Farrell get injured.

God I hope not.

A bit of club rugby and fair enough I wouldn't want Robshaw injured but I don't think it will hurt us as much as all that. Plus then we could bring in an injury replacement like Wallace (not Fraser as he is injured unfortunately )

With my tigers eyes on I would go with Slater on the bench is a big enforcer lock, but is very quick and has played regularly at 6 when Croft and Mafi have been injured for tigers and 8 at times. also strong in the line out. and works well with Youngs as an impact sub.