Scotland v Australia, 23 November

by **George Carlin** Mon 18 Nov 2013, 11:31 am

First topic message reminder :

Scotland Scotland v Australia, 23 November - Page 6 Bangin12

v Australia Scotland v Australia, 23 November - Page 6 Smiley18

23 November 2013, KO: 18:00
Murrayfield Stadium, Edinburgh

Referee: Jaco Peyper (RSA)
AR1: Pascal Gauzere (FRA)
AR2: Francisco Pastrana (ARG)
TMO: Geoff Warren (ENG)

LIVE on BBC

A. Teams:

1. Jessies

15 Sean Maitland (Glasgow Warriors) 7 caps, 1 try, 5 points
14 Tommy Seymour (Glasgow Warriors) 4 caps, 2 tries, 10 points
13 Nick De Luca (Edinburgh Rugby) 40 caps, 1 try, 5 points
12 Duncan Taylor (Saracens) 5 caps
11 Sean Lamont (Glasgow Warriors) 81 caps, 12 tries, 60 points

10 Duncan Weir (Glasgow Warriors) 7 caps, 1 try, 2 conversions, 9 points
9 Greig Laidlaw (Edinburgh Rugby) 23 caps, 3 tries, 23 conversions, 49 penalties, 208 points

1 Ryan Grant (Glasgow Warriors) 12 caps
2 Ross Ford (Edinburgh Rugby) 70 caps, 2 tries, 10 points
3 Moray Low (Glasgow Warriors) 22 caps
4 Grant Gilchrist (Edinburgh Rugby)
5 Jim Hamilton (Montpellier) 49 caps, 1 try, 5 points
6 Johnnie Beattie (Montpellier) 25 caps, 3 tries, 15 points
7 Kelly Brown (Saracens) 59 caps, 4 tries, 20 points CAPTAIN
8 David Denton (Edinburgh Rugby) 16 caps

16 Pat MacArthur (Glasgow Warriors) 2 caps
17 Alasdair Dickinson (Edinburgh Rugby) 29 caps, 2 tries, 10 points
18 Euan Murray (Worcester Warriors) 57 caps, 2 tries, 10 points
19 Jonny Gray (Glasgow Warriors)
20 Kieran Low (London Irish) uncapped
21 Chris Cusiter (Glasgow Warriors) 63 caps, 3 tries, 15 points
22 Ruaridh Jackson (Glasgow Warriors) 23 caps, 3 conversions, 2 penalties, 2 drop-goals 18 points
23 Max Evans (Castres) 36 caps, 3 tries, 15 points

2. Wallabies
Scotland v Australia, 23 November - Page 6 Edna10

Scotland v Australia, 23 November - Page 6 Edna10

15 Israel Folau
14 Joe Tomane
13 Christian Leali'ifano
12 Mike Harris
11 Chris Feauai-Sautia
10 Quade Cooper
9 Will Genia

8 Ben Mowen (capt)
7 Michael Hooper
6 Scott Fardy
5 James Horwill
4 Rob Simmons
3 Sekope Kepu
2 Stephen Moore
1 James Slipper

16 Saia Fainga'a
17 Ben Alexander
18 Paddy Ryan
19 Sitaleki Timani
20 Ben McCalman
21 Nic White
22 Nick Phipps
23 Bernard Foley

B. Recent Form - last seven

1. Scotland

Scotland - South Africa 0-28
Scotland - Italy 30-29
South Africa - Scotland 30-17
Samoa - Scotland 27-17
France - Scotland 23-16
Scotland - Wales 18-28
Scotland - Ireland 12-8

2. Australia

15-32 Ireland - Australia
20-13 England - Australia
41-33 New Zealand - Australia
17-54 Argentina - Australia
28-8 South Africa - Australia
14-13 Australia - Argentina
12-38 Australia - South Africa

C. Recent Form - head to head

5 June 2012, Hunter Stadium, Newcastle
Scotland Tour of Australasia
Australia 6 – 9 Scotland

21 November 2009, Murrayfield, Edinburgh
2009 Autumn International
Scotland 9 – 8 Australia

25 November 2006, Murrayfield, Edinburgh
2006 Autumn International
Scotland 15 – 44 Australia

20 November 2004, Hampden Park, Glasgow
2004 Autumn International
Scotland 17 – 31 Australia

6 November 2004, Murrayfield, Edinburgh
2004 Autumn International
Scotland 14 – 31 Australia

by **RDW** Thu 21 Nov 2013, 9:30 am

Captain_Sensible wrote:Swinson has dropped out of the starting squad due to injury, Gilchrist will start and Jonny Gray will be on the bench.

To be honest, that's a fux king disaster - Swinson is such a huge player for us at the breakdown and around the pitch.

Big hairy baws. I would have brought in Gray snr to the bench, but maybe he's been sent back to France.

by **George Carlin** Thu 21 Nov 2013, 9:40 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:
Captain_Sensible wrote:Swinson has dropped out of the starting squad due to injury, Gilchrist will start and Jonny Gray will be on the bench.

To be honest, that's a fux king disaster - Swinson is such a huge player for us at the breakdown and around the pitch.
Big hairy baws. I would have brought in Gray snr to the bench, but maybe he's been sent back to France.

Aw mahoosive love sacks - that's very, very bad news although we need TS at Glasgow so I'm glad he's not being risked when not 100%.

Let's see how Grant goes - it is clear and documented that SJ is a big Gilchrist fan. I am hoping that if Horwill and Simmons swallow him up, Johnson has the stones to get him off and get Jonny in there instead - they are both big specimens but I am more confident that Gray can hold his own. Gray is both taller and heavier than Swinson, incidentally, so JohnsonBall is still on the cards.

by RuggerRadge2611 Thu 21 Nov 2013, 9:43 am

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:
Either they're telling porkies or it actually turn out that professional coaches do in fact know more than we do! Surely not...
Well, I'm going to stick my neck out and call BS. Looks to me like John Barclay has been hung out to dry when he was clearly one of our better forwards against SA, and as for the Ford analysis, I've rewatched the game myself, and he's still dog-Poopie. Imagining that you can take on the Ozzies with a converted 6 and/or a converted 8 at openside smacks of arrogance too - unimpressed

Since I haven't got the stomach to rewatch the game I'll defer to your judgement Asbo. As I said I want MacArthur to start, but at the time I didn't think the Lineout was all Ford's fault.

The stats also show he made 14 tackles, missed none and scored a turnover. Only Strocksh made more tackles.

Barclay scored 4 turnovers against SA, there is no excuse for him not to be playing unless he is injured.

by Majestic83 Thu 21 Nov 2013, 9:57 am

Australian team has been announced

Australia: 15 Israel Folau, 14 Joe Tomane, 13 Christian Leali'ifano, 12 Mike Harris, 11 Chris Feauai-Sautia, 10 Quade Cooper, 9 Will Genia, 8 Ben Mowen (capt), 7 Michael Hooper, 6 Scott Fardy, 5 James Horwill, 4 Rob Simmons, 3 Sekope Kepu, 2 Stephen Moore, 1 James Slipper.
Replacements: 16 Saia Fainga'a, 17 Ben Alexander, 18 Paddy Ryan, 19 Sitaleki Timani, 20 Ben McCalman, 21 Nic White, 22 Nick Phipps, 23 Bernard Foley.

Despite missing the 5 through suspension and Kuidrani for the tip tackle it still looks a fairly strong Australian side. Forward pack is probably their strongest at the moment. The only slightly weak area is the centre pairing, Mike Harris has been out of favour at Australia and also the Reds not starting many games this season.
Leali'ifano is a very good player but think this will be his first time in the 13 jersey, normally a 10 or 12.
The new wing in the 11 jersey will be very dangerous, he is rapid and likes to hit hard in defence as well. Comparissons to Digby Ioane in that he likes to go through a lot of work and carry the ball and seems to pop up in the right place.

The forwards on the subs bench look pretty good and should make an impact especially Timani and McCalman. The sub backs look a little more limited though, 2 scrum halves on the bench so shouldn't be quite as much impact from them.

by tigertattie Thu 21 Nov 2013, 10:03 am

I dont get SJ's picks at all here! He keeps doing more and more weird things!

by TJ Thu 21 Nov 2013, 10:32 am

SJ is an idiot.

by RuggerRadge2611 Thu 21 Nov 2013, 10:47 am

TJ wrote:SJ is an idiot.

Is he really? I'm torn between thinking he is a clown and thinking he is a genius. It cannot be denied he has one eye on the future. A lot of the picks he has made suggest so.

It can't really be helped that our team is struggling with injuries. Scott, Hogg, Visser and Rennie are arguably 4 of the 1st names on everyones team sheets. Add Swinson to that list and we have to be honest with ourselves we aren't overflowing with international class talent. Giving Gilchrist a crack is sensible and Johnny Gray will get another chance from the Bench. I would not be opposed to Gray snr Starting and Gilchrist on the bench either. Thus far he seems to be true to his word. The bulk of the rookies will get their chance.

The Autumn games are a great time to experiment, yeah we should try to win every game but I would rather experiment now than in the 6N. He seems to be building towards something, trying Beattie and Brown as a 6/7 axis isn't the worst idea ever. Hines at 6 anyone? And we haven't seen Lamont at 12 (yet).

I'm keeping the faith. Playing Australia with no proper openside is the only glaring mistake I can see. Ford isn't my 1st choice at hooker and I feel MacArthur should be starting, but some of the hyperbole on here from normaly moderate and sensible posters is IMO a little overboard.

by boomeranga Thu 21 Nov 2013, 10:47 am

The Wallaby centres is a weird combo! I don't think I saw anyone predict that. Neither Lilo nor Harris are quick but may kick you to death, I guess. They flew a bit of a dodgy winger over this week but other than him, I think that is every back accounted for.

I read this week That the young winger - CSF - is the most capped Oz Schoolboy of all time, so while I personally think he is still short of this level I'm looking forward to seeing him play a full game.

The forwards are as expected. The suspensions hurt the bench more than the starting pack.

I'm looking forward to this game. End this run of Scottish success hopefully.

by Captain_Sensible Thu 21 Nov 2013, 10:50 am

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
TJ wrote:SJ is an idiot.
Is he really? I'm torn between thinking he is a clown and thinking he is a genius. It cannot be denied he has one eye on the future. A lot of the picks he has made suggest so.

It can't really be helped that our team is struggling with injuries. Scott, Hogg, Visser and Rennie are arguably 4 of the 1st names on everyones team sheets. Add Swinson to that list and we have to be honest with ourselves we aren't overflowing with international class talent. Giving Gilchrist a crack is sensible and Johnny Gray will get another chance from the Bench. I would not be opposed to Gray snr Starting and Gilchrist on the bench either. Thus far he seems to be true to his word. The bulk of the rookies will get their chance.

The Autumn games are a great time to experiment, yeah we should try to win every game but I would rather experiment now than in the 6N. He seems to be building towards something, trying Beattie and Brown as a 6/7 axis isn't the worst idea ever. Hines at 6 anyone? And we haven't seen Lamont at 12 (yet).

I'm keeping the faith. Playing Australia with no proper openside is the only glaring mistake I can see. Ford isn't my 1st choice at hooker and I feel MacArthur should be starting, but some of the hyperbole on here from normaly moderate and sensible posters is IMO a little overboard.

Agreed.

by TJ Thu 21 Nov 2013, 10:53 am

Radge - I agree with you about experimenting / finding out abut the players but I still think SJ is a clown. I never wanted him involved with the scottish team at all

he did say he would be trying out players and combos and injuries have hampered him but while he has tried to look at all players and combos he has made some glaring errors.

so right ethos but wrong choices.

by TJ Thu 21 Nov 2013, 10:55 am

On ford - I have said it before but he seems to have a rugby equivelent of the yips. He needs a move IMO to rekindle his game and needs a spell out of the scotland tam to make him hungry again. He looks to me like a man whos mind is not right for top flight rugby

by nickj Thu 21 Nov 2013, 10:56 am

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
TJ wrote:SJ is an idiot.
Is he really? I'm torn between thinking he is a clown and thinking he is a genius. It cannot be denied he has one eye on the future. A lot of the picks he has made suggest so.

It can't really be helped that our team is struggling with injuries. Scott, Hogg, Visser and Rennie are arguably 4 of the 1st names on everyones team sheets. Add Swinson to that list and we have to be honest with ourselves we aren't overflowing with international class talent. Giving Gilchrist a crack is sensible and Johnny Gray will get another chance from the Bench. I would not be opposed to Gray snr Starting and Gilchrist on the bench either. Thus far he seems to be true to his word. The bulk of the rookies will get their chance.

The Autumn games are a great time to experiment, yeah we should try to win every game but I would rather experiment now than in the 6N. He seems to be building towards something, trying Beattie and Brown as a 6/7 axis isn't the worst idea ever. Hines at 6 anyone? And we haven't seen Lamont at 12 (yet).

I'm keeping the faith. Playing Australia with no proper openside is the only glaring mistake I can see. Ford isn't my 1st choice at hooker and I feel MacArthur should be starting, but some of the hyperbole on here from normaly moderate and sensible posters is IMO a little overboard.

Well said Radge. I couldn't have put it better myself.

Although its not explicitly stated could Barclay be struggling fitness wise?

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/rugby/latest/scotland-ring-changes-for-australia-autumn-test-1-3195539

From the Hootsman:

However, rather than give him another chance, the coaches have restored Kelly Brown to the No 7 jersey. ‘Mr Consistency’ was always going to return, but for Alasdair Strokosch on the blindside, the players having been told that they would be given two autumn games each and not asked to back up Test matches of ferocious intensity inside six days.

Instead, it is regular No 8 Johnnie Beattie who will wear the six jersey against the Wallabies with Brown in the position Johnson admitted last week did not suit him best. David Denton stays at No 8 as his education continues. That is especially intriguing against a team like Australia, who have made an art out of developing smaller, skilful opensides like George Smith, Phil Waugh, David Pocock and now Michael Hooper, for whom scrambling around on the ground, sticking heads and hands into rucks and causing mayhem, is the equivalent of being handed the keys to a sweet shop.

Key to Australia’s game are the players that oil the machinery and turn the ball-winning of the front five into the ball-running of the hugely skilful backs. So why would Scotland opt for three stand-up, physical players, ignoring the claims of Glasgow flanker Chris Fusaro, and play their best ball player, Beattie, in the jersey usually occupied by the biggest bludgeon?

“We tried to go there [blindside] with Kelly,” said Johnson, “but we’ve got some bumps so Kelly’s doing this for the team. It wasn’t perfect for our plans, but it is an opportunity to have a look at Johnnie on the side too. He’s played a bit of seven at age-grade so we want to have a look at left and right.”

In other words, rather than sticking to openside or blindside Beattie and Brown will effectively play both, which is not a familiar Scottish tactic. Johnson denied he was stretching his team’s shape simply to find space for his skipper, and said that had he not warranted a start he would not have got one.

“We’d like better competition in the seven area. I’m not hiding from that. Sometimes we just have to look at how we play the sevens. [Australia] play sevens that are very hard on the ball and we get that. We’re trying to find kids that are real quality on the ball and if we can’t get that then we have to find guys who can do other things.”

What about Fusaro?

“He’s just not there yet. I’ve told him that in certain areas of his game he has to improve. At the moment he’s not winning the 50-50 competitions that he should be winning on a regular basis against the big boys.

“It’s a very similar conversation I had with Phil Waugh many years ago,” said the former Wallabies coach. “When you are a player like that you have to make sure that your skill set is at an elite level, when that’s your bread and butter, and right at the moment we’ve looked at all the games and he’s doing really well, and is a kid we really like, but in that area of the game he has to keep getting better and better.

“When he strikes it and is far better than anyone else then Chris Fusaro is in our plans, and rest assured he’s part of the growth of this team as well. He just has to get better.”

He continued: “The competition that exists for sport in Australia puts pressure on them to play a certain way. It’s no coincidence that over the last decade they’ve produced wonderful sevens because it’s a lifeblood if you really want to play that style and get it right. And they have some special players. I saw Hooper as a kid and played against his father. He’s a talented lad. They have Pocock injured, and a few in the line, but if you haven’t got it then you have to do the tackle area slightly different. We have Ross Rennie out injured, remember.

“So we have to do what we have to do, but make no mistake: we understand the quality that we’re up against in that tackle area.”

Kieran Low is a new forward Johnson wants to see off the bench on Saturday, though he is not an openside either. “He’s a wonderfully gifted athlete, no doubt about it,” said the coach. “He’s a quality that we don’t have a lot of. He’s played five, six and eight in his last three games, so he’s good enough athletically to play in the back row and he’s big enough to play up front, and that’s a good sign for us for the future because it puts pressure on people.”

by Captain_Sensible Thu 21 Nov 2013, 11:00 am

TJ wrote:Radge - I agree with you about experimenting / finding out abut the players but I still think SJ is a clown. I never wanted him involved with the scottish team at all

he did say he would be trying out players and combos and injuries have hampered him but while he has tried to look at all players and combos he has made some glaring errors.

so right ethos but wrong choices.

He's made glaring errors in your opinion. And mine, too. But that's the thing, all this selection malarkey is a matter of opinion. Remember that he has more data to formulate his opinions than we do. He's only an idiot if the results on the pitch reveal his decisions to be wrong. The game against SA went badly, but he's not on the pitch helping the players jump at a lineout out hook a bull in a scrum.

I can't wait for Cotter to arrive, but let's hold our judgement on Johnson's idiocy until after the Aussie game.

by RuggerRadge2611 Thu 21 Nov 2013, 11:01 am

TJ wrote:On ford - I have said it before but he seems to have a rugby equivelent of the yips. He needs a move IMO to rekindle his game and needs a spell out of the scotland tam to make him hungry again. He looks to me like a man whos mind is not right for top flight rugby

Because our lineout malfunctioned? As a card carrying member of the front row union I would say Ford put in a fairly decent set of shifts over the last 2 weeks. 2nd top tackler against the Bokke (only Stroker had more) and he also tidied up a lot of crap ball at the base of the rucks when Laidlaw was under all kinds of pressure.

I'll say again I would have picked MacArthur to start but some of the criticism being thrown at Ford is unreasonable at best, down right biased at worst. For only being on for 60 minutes and being the 2nd top tackler in the team, should tell you all you need to know about Ford on Sunday. The guy worked really hard. Ok, the lineout didn't work and it piled the pressure on, but other guys made huge mistakes (Jackson, Weir and Lamont) and they barely get a mention.

Aside from a few lineouts, the pack did well on Sunday. What should be a greater concern was the hospital passes and the directionless midfield.

by **George Carlin** Thu 21 Nov 2013, 11:03 am

boomeranga wrote:The Wallaby centres is a weird combo! I don't think I saw anyone predict that. Neither Lilo nor Harris are quick but may kick you to death, I guess. They flew a bit of a dodgy winger over this week but other than him, I think that is every back accounted for.

I read this week That the young winger - CSF - is the most capped Oz Schoolboy of all time, so while I personally think he is still short of this level I'm looking forward to seeing him play a full game.

The forwards are as expected. The suspensions hurt the bench more than the starting pack.

I'm looking forward to this game. End this run of Scottish success hopefully.

Boomer, you've been very quiet lately. Perhaps we're all just loud.

I am certainly comfortable that LLF/Harris won't be stepping their way through our lines in the same way that AAC or JOC would but I am expecting lots of gainline holding pop passing and chip kicking through for Folau and this young winger to chase. If we play Bennett and Taylor in the centres then LLF/Harris with their 20 odd caps in aggregate is still going to be about 4 times as experienced as our lads.

As with most out of position experiments at international level, either playing left-right flankers with a soft-handed 8 like Beattie and a versatile specialist who is used to playing out of position like Brown will be a complete disaster with Hooper and Fardy roaming at will or it will be a superb use of big men to choke a midfield and use (what used to be) a very good Scottish rucking game.

by TJ Thu 21 Nov 2013, 11:09 am

Radge - He has been decent but way off his best and to me its about his mental state. Maybe he just has an unfortunate set of expressions but he looks a tormented soul at times. I would have dropped him completely for the AIs and I think a move to France would do him good - get the spotlight off him and allow him to recover. the reason being I want him back and hungry and on the top of his game for the 6N and beyond into the WC. short term pain for long term gain.

by tigertattie Thu 21 Nov 2013, 11:11 am

I'm all for experimenting but there needs to be logic and reason behind it!

Experimenting would be giving MacArthur a shot at hooker. Ford just is not performing.

Experimenting would be playing Alex Grove in the Centre

Experimenting would be playing The Killer B's

Playing Ford, playing Brown out of position, not playing an actual openside is not experimenting. It's just daft!

by RuggerRadge2611 Thu 21 Nov 2013, 11:19 am

TJ wrote:Radge - He has been decent but way off his best and to me its about his mental state. Maybe he just has an unfortunate set of expressions but he looks a tormented soul at times. I would have dropped him completely for the AIs and I think a move to France would do him good - get the spotlight off him and allow him to recover. the reason being I want him back and hungry and on the top of his game for the 6N and beyond into the WC. short term pain for long term gain.

Why will a move to France help him? Granted it rejuvinated Beattie but Beattie is a polar opposite in terms of commitment to a guy like Ford. Ross Ford is a workaholic and was nearly hospitalized due to over training. The Hootsman ran an article about it a year or so ago.

For Edinburgh this year Ford's lineout work has been pretty good, the Lineout worked well against Japan all of a sudden Bakkies Botha (one of the best lineout operators in the world) makes a hash of our lineout and Ford is no longer good enough to play international rugby! I'll say it for the Final time, I want/wanted MacArthur to start, but hands on hearts, would Bakkies have disrupted his line out in the same way? Probably! Would Strokosch have held onto MacArthur's throw instead of dropping Fords? Probably, but we just don't know! As I said the lineout wasn't just Ford's mistakes.

I get what you are saying TJ, folk said the same about Gray not being his best for Scotland in the run up to the Lions, "he wasn't his best, blah blah blah".

Just because Ford/Gray aren't trampeling oppositon players, making clean breaks, beating defenders etc, doesn't mean they aren't at their best. It means they are playing the game as differant players. Did you see Bismarck or Strauss making big gains and carrying well? No! That doesn't mean they didn't play well.

Ford put in a massive shift in "the D", it could be argued SA would have burst through the fringes of some of those Rucks without Ford.

MacArthur should start but I'm starting to think Ford's bashing is getting similar to NDL's. Certain posters here don't rate him and won't be happy untill he is dropped.

by RuggerRadge2611 Thu 21 Nov 2013, 11:21 am

tigertattie wrote:I'm all for experimenting but there needs to be logic and reason behind it!

Experimenting would be giving MacArthur a shot at hooker. Ford just is not performing. See my other comment, Ford is an easy scape goat like NDL.

Experimenting would be playing Alex Grove in the Centre Couldn't agree more, Taylor looked so out of his depth on Sunday it was frightening.

Experimenting would be playing The Killer B's Barclay I think Barclay might be injured

Playing Ford, playing Brown out of position, not playing an actual openside is not experimenting. It's just daft!

by TJ Thu 21 Nov 2013, 11:26 am

I agree with your asessment of Fords play in these games - better than many here seem to think. I just feel he is playing thru issues rather than getting the issues sorted. altho he is clerly better than he was a while back I think he needs a change and that he needs to be told that he had a few months to getback to his best mentally. " go back to your club and remember how it is to be the best and remember what its like to enjoy playing" I think a break from internationals and a move would do him good. Its just an opinion. I want him at his best for the 6N and the WC. I don't want him dropped permanently just given time to recover what appears to me to be mental / confidence issues.

by TJ Thu 21 Nov 2013, 11:29 am

RuggerRadge2611 wrote: What should be a greater concern was the hospital passes and the directionless midfield.

Start Weir. he came on and tried to force the game. He needs a start and needs to know he has the confidence of the coaches. He has yet to show his talents in a scotland shirt. ( apart from for the A team - remember this? ) Weir masterminded this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KoIJOkOGK4

by RuggerRadge2611 Thu 21 Nov 2013, 11:34 am

TJ wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote: What should be a greater concern was the hospital passes and the directionless midfield.
Start Weir. he came on and tried to force the game. He needs a start and needs to know he has the confidence of the coaches. He has yet to show his talents in a scotland shirt. ( apart from for the A team - remember this? ) Weir masterminded this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KoIJOkOGK4

Weir had a good game in that match, no doubt but that was a long time ago now 2 years nearly). He hasn't played a lot of rugby at Glasgow and I have to be honest I always feel Jackson is and has been a better player.

Fly Half is still a huge concern, Jackson I don't think is the answer either. I geniunly would like to see Horne get a chance at 10 or Scott. However Edinburgh need Scott at 12 but I feel he would be an excellent 10. He makes good decisions, plays heads up rugby, has soft hands, passes well, is powerful in the contact, rarely makes mistakes and isn't often turned over. Scott could become Scotland's Steven Jones. Look how hard a time Wales have had trying to replace him.

Weir came on and tried to force the game, even when forcing the game he could have played a heads up game. My memory from Weir's contribution on Sunday was Barclay going apoplectic at him for another suicide pass

by TJ Thu 21 Nov 2013, 11:40 am

Since then he was picked to sit on the bench for scotland but never got on the pitch. Stopped him playing for his club as well so he got no game time then dropped completely then injured again really only now back to full fitness

jackson / weir to me is very like Chalmers / Townsend ( you old enough to remember this?). Jackson will do great things and make mistakes. Weir is a much steadier player but has a far better tactical kicking game but maybe not as capable of the great pass. However he is also a decent runner witht eh ball in hand and IMO is the answer for scotland. we will not know unless he gets a decent run of starts tho will we. I just hope he starts agaisnt Aus and the pack give him some decent ball.

Against SA he also made a couple of great tactical kicks and a couple of decent passes to go with a couple of mistakes. I think he was just trying too hard.

by **RDW** Thu 21 Nov 2013, 11:42 am

Weir to start - he did pretty well in the 6N this year and that is a much more intense environment.

But if SJ hasn't dropped Ford chances are he won't drop Jackson!

I think Jackson has more claim to be dropped than Ford personally.

by Captain_Sensible Thu 21 Nov 2013, 11:44 am

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
TJ wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote: What should be a greater concern was the hospital passes and the directionless midfield.
Start Weir. he came on and tried to force the game. He needs a start and needs to know he has the confidence of the coaches. He has yet to show his talents in a scotland shirt. ( apart from for the A team - remember this? ) Weir masterminded this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KoIJOkOGK4
Weir had a good game in that match, no doubt but that was a long time ago now 2 years nearly). He hasn't played a lot of rugby at Glasgow and I have to be honest I always feel Jackson is and has been a better player.

Fly Half is still a huge concern, Jackson I don't think is the answer either. I geniunly would like to see Horne get a chance at 10 or Scott. However Edinburgh need Scott at 12 but I feel he would be an excellent 10. He makes good decisions, plays heads up rugby, has soft hands, passes well, is powerful in the contact, rarely makes mistakes and isn't often turned over. Scott could become Scotland's Steven Jones. Look how hard a time Wales have had trying to replace him.

Weir came on and tried to force the game, even when forcing the game he could have played a heads up game. My memory from Weir's contribution on Sunday was Barclay going apoplectic at him for another suicide pass

All true, but you leave out one incredibly important aspect - kicking, both from hand and tee. Scott has openly admitted that his territorial kicking is nowhere near the standard required for pro rugby, let alone international rugby. That's why he was switched to 12 - when he played at 10 for Currie they pretty much ran everything.

If you're looking for inside centres to shift to 10, Horne is the better bet. He played well there for Glasgow in a few occasions last season.

by TJ Thu 21 Nov 2013, 11:44 am

If SJ is true to what he said Weir must start.

by TheMildlyFranticLlama Thu 21 Nov 2013, 11:48 am

Captain_Sensible wrote:

I can't wait for Cotter to arrive, but let's hold our judgement on Johnson's idiocy until after the Aussie game.

I sort've hinted at this earlier in the thread, but Cotter will come in and picks who he genuinely believes are the best players for any given game based on what he sees in training, word from club coaches and whatever else. Now as soon as those players picked don't match those that supporters believe deserve to be there, despite having no idea what goes on in training sessions or god forbid he has the audacity to select some of the unfasionable (among certain factions) players like NDL or Ford then he's going to get lambasted for his selections (even if theyre in the form of their lives seemingly). 'Cotter is a terrible selector' and the like, and boom the circle continues. It just seems to be the mindset of the Scottish supporter and while I hope Cotter comes in and things change drastically and he's praised across the board for his selection genius, I'm not sure I can see it happening!

by **RDW** Thu 21 Nov 2013, 11:48 am

Scotti s a 12.

12

Not a 10

12.

12

by RuggerRadge2611 Thu 21 Nov 2013, 11:51 am

Captain_Sensible wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
TJ wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote: What should be a greater concern was the hospital passes and the directionless midfield.
Start Weir. he came on and tried to force the game. He needs a start and needs to know he has the confidence of the coaches. He has yet to show his talents in a scotland shirt. ( apart from for the A team - remember this? ) Weir masterminded this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KoIJOkOGK4
Weir had a good game in that match, no doubt but that was a long time ago now 2 years nearly). He hasn't played a lot of rugby at Glasgow and I have to be honest I always feel Jackson is and has been a better player.

Fly Half is still a huge concern, Jackson I don't think is the answer either. I geniunly would like to see Horne get a chance at 10 or Scott. However Edinburgh need Scott at 12 but I feel he would be an excellent 10. He makes good decisions, plays heads up rugby, has soft hands, passes well, is powerful in the contact, rarely makes mistakes and isn't often turned over. Scott could become Scotland's Steven Jones. Look how hard a time Wales have had trying to replace him.

Weir came on and tried to force the game, even when forcing the game he could have played a heads up game. My memory from Weir's contribution on Sunday was Barclay going apoplectic at him for another suicide pass
All true, but you leave out one incredibly important aspect - kicking, both from hand and tee. Scott has openly admitted that his territorial kicking is nowhere near the standard required for pro rugby, let alone international rugby. That's why he was switched to 12 - when he played at 10 for Currie they pretty much ran everything.

If you're looking for inside centres to shift to 10, Horne is the better bet. He played well there for Glasgow in a few occasions last season.

I don't want this to sound WUMish, I'm not that kind of poster, but Horne and kicking from the tee even in the same paragraph really made me laugh! kiss

Horne I think could be our answer at 10. Playing Horne, Dunbar and Bennet as a midfield unit at Glasgow would be an ideal proving ground. Horne's kicking from the tee as with Scott's doesn't worry me when you have guys like Hogg, or Laidlaw who can take on the kicking duties.

Hogg can even slot in at 10 temporarrily when we just want to get the ball out of there.

by RuggerRadge2611 Thu 21 Nov 2013, 11:53 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:Scotti s a 12.

12

Not a 10

12.

12

I'm a big fan of the Scott-12 campaign but we still have big problems at 10.

I don't think Leonard will ever be good enough.

How much more time to we give Jackson?

Weir, again I'm not convinced.

Heathcoate, I would like to see him at Edinburgh getting regular rugby.

by **RDW** Thu 21 Nov 2013, 11:55 am

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:Scotti s a 12.

12

Not a 10

12.

12
I'm a big fan of the Scott-12 campaign but we still have big problems at 10.

I don't think Leonard will ever be good enough.

How much more time to we give Jackson?

Weir, again I'm not convinced.

Heathcoate, I would like to see him at Edinburgh getting regular rugby.

Yes there are problems but Scott isn't the answer. Why move a potentially world class 12 to become an average 10?

12 - Matt Scott.

12.

by Captain_Sensible Thu 21 Nov 2013, 11:58 am

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:Scotti s a 12.

12

Not a 10

12.

12
I'm a big fan of the Scott-12 campaign but we still have big problems at 10.

I don't think Leonard will ever be good enough.

How much more time to we give Jackson?

Weir, again I'm not convinced.

Heathcoate, I would like to see him at Edinburgh getting regular rugby.

Two points - in your response to my Scott/kicking post, you didn't mention territorial kicking, which was my main point. Horne has a good range in this area, but Scott has said himself that his skills here are very limited. You can't have a ten that can't kick for territory.

Also, all of the guys you've mentioned bar Jackson are 22 or under. In career terms, they're pups. How on earth can you say that they'll never be good enough? Kelly Brown has only become Mr Fantastic for Scotland in the last three years or so, right near the end of his career. He was a bit part player for most of his international career.

This rush to judgement on whether a certain player is 'the answer' is insane.

by boomeranga Thu 21 Nov 2013, 12:00 pm

Gday George,

yeah I come on and read every day at work but not many to talk to during our daytime unfortunately. I post on the Roar a bit but it's a fair old cluster at times so tend to just read mostly. Here is good to keep up with how all you guys are travelling anyway.

The midfield might be a bit of cripple fight this weekend by the sounds. I noticed earlier in the week you guys were down to your 5th / 6th sort of choices as well which made me think we may have punted on CFS or Tomane at 13 beside Lilo, but he's gone a bit safer. I can understand that with all the changes happening but it's a bldy boring combo. Shades of McCabe and Faingaa for excitement.

As to the overall game, I don't know how this'll go. Our forwards are a bit bipolar really. They've fronted up alright the last two weeks, and i thought we were actually good last week but phark the Irish were flat. They really lacked their usual venom I thought. As for your game, it wasnt pretty but the Boks are good now arent they so what that result means for us is impossible to say. No Willem Alberts types in our pack unfortunately!

Good luck to your blokes anyway mate.

by OzT Thu 21 Nov 2013, 12:02 pm

boomeranga wrote: Shades of McCabe and Faingaa for excitement.

Noooooooooo.......... !!!!! Please noooooooo.....!!!!!

by Captain_Sensible Thu 21 Nov 2013, 12:08 pm

Oh, and Stuart Hogg is back from injury against the Dragons on Friday night.

https://twitter.com/GlasgowWarriors/status/403492337294135296/photo/1

by boomeranga Thu 21 Nov 2013, 12:10 pm

I really like both McCabe and Faingaa for their courage and hardness, and I bet your the same Oz. but sheeezus it was dull watching those backlines limp along. Toomua and Kuridrani have real potential I think, and I've a man crush on Folau after those speccy's last week.

by TJ Thu 21 Nov 2013, 12:14 pm

Captain_Sensible wrote:Oh, and Stuart Hogg is back from injury against the Dragons on Friday night.

https://twitter.com/GlasgowWarriors/status/403492337294135296/photo/1

good - we have really missed him along with scott. with so few world class players we really need the ones we have

by tigertattie Thu 21 Nov 2013, 12:18 pm

Captain_Sensible wrote:Oh, and Stuart Hogg is back from injury against the Dragons on Friday night.

https://twitter.com/GlasgowWarriors/status/403492337294135296/photo/1

thats good news! I thought he was out till january!

by TJ Thu 21 Nov 2013, 12:21 pm

Laidlaw - why has he started running a bit sideways before he passes every time? Another player trying too hard?

by **RDW** Thu 21 Nov 2013, 12:22 pm

Messiah has been listed as a maybe in the Glasgow squad - does that mean if Seymour is fit then he won't be playing?

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Thu 21 Nov 2013, 1:01 pm

I think it's the other way round, RDW - if Seymour is fit, the Messiah debuts, else not

by RuggerRadge2611 Thu 21 Nov 2013, 1:15 pm

TJ wrote:Laidlaw - why has he started running a bit sideways before he passes every time? Another player trying too hard?

He wasn't doing it against Japan, he kind of had to against South Africa to avoid getting dragged into a ruck.

Do we think SJ will play angel

at 13 and NDL at 12?

I have no Idea what our backline will be at the weekend.

by OzT Thu 21 Nov 2013, 1:16 pm

Well we've got Leali'ifano and Harris in the centres.... so be expecting a bit of kicking, the delicate little precision chips over for the wingers to run into on the full then the backhand flick inside for the backup centres to romp under the post......

by TJ Thu 21 Nov 2013, 1:23 pm

Righteo. My obsessive / autistic nature to the fore. I have rewatched the SA game looking for Weirs contributions. Came on at 28 nil down with 25 mins to play.
1) deep pass to maitland coming into the line at pace
2) simple short pass, ran around and took the return, took it into contact and recycled
3) simple good pass
4) dummy and run -dummy not bought but set up ruck well
5) nice flat pass with zip
6) Knocked on a pass infront of him - 50 / 50 ball
7) Nice simple inside pass
8) Good tackle on ?? Sa loosie
9) takes a pass from wing who had caught a deep ball. counterattacks. Up to line, wide pass nealry intercepted but right option as 3 unmarked wide men for scotland. If the pass had gone to scottish hands ( a matter of inches ) -try scotland, If SA player had caught it try SA
10) 50 m touchfinder perfect lands over the SA wing, 2 m infeild and bounces into touch
11) wide pass - near intercept but knocked on SA but Weir tidies up and takes into contact and sets up good ruck ball
12) short pass from SH to dummies then goes - dummy not bought, into contact but sets up good ruck ball again
Cus on
13) nice pass to centre
14) Knocks on good pass
15) Lovely punt to touch from a pen
16) Missed touch from Pen - nice play from SA wing -Weir tried too hard but would have found touch bar the good SA play
17) Dummy and run but nailed and then set up good ruck ball
18) simple pass to centre
19) simple inside pass
20) Nice pass - simple option
21) lovely weighted kick into corner - nearly a try for the goblin. Nothin else on - nice option
22) scots 5 m scrum. Kicked thru for the runners. Sa defended it well. appeared to be a planned move - discussion pre scrum Cus / weir and centres in position for the kick thru

Observations? Varied the game well. took a couple of high risk options that did not pay off. Kept the opposition guessing with his runs and everytime he was tackled he put the ball back well for good ruck ball.

Lots of chat to his teammates, played OK but unable to unlock the SA defense. Maybe stood a bit deep but took the passes running at pace. Showed a lot of courage.

Really want to see him start agaisnt Aus

by **RDW** Thu 21 Nov 2013, 1:35 pm

Good effort TJ. I did remember Weir having some really nice kicks in his 20 minute cameo (one missed to touch too) - his kicking game is very much superior to Jackson's I think.

by **RDW** Thu 21 Nov 2013, 1:35 pm

Do you want to do that with every other player??

by TJ Thu 21 Nov 2013, 1:44 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:Do you want to do that with every other player??

Nope - not that obsessive Smile

What was noticable that apart from the two high risk near interceptions every pass was inch perfect and both the near interceptions were only inches away from being very good for scotland and the right option. They were not wild passes but good options just very well defended / not well excecurted. the second one less obviously the right option but the first one was a great opportunity.

by **George Carlin** Thu 21 Nov 2013, 1:51 pm

TJ wrote:Laidlaw - why has he started running a bit sideways before he passes every time? Another player trying too hard?

He's started studying Owen Farrell's 'technique'.

by TJ Thu 21 Nov 2013, 1:53 pm

George Carlin wrote:
TJ wrote:Laidlaw - why has he started running a bit sideways before he passes every time? Another player trying too hard?
He's started studying Owen Farrell's 'technique'.

Do we have a "saucer of cream" smilie?

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Thu 21 Nov 2013, 1:58 pm

TJ wrote:Righteo. My obsessive / autistic nature to the fore. I have rewatched the SA game looking for Weirs contributions. Came on at 28 nil down with 25 mins to play.
1) deep pass to maitland coming into the line at pace
2) simple short pass, ran around and took the return, took it into contact and recycled
3) simple good pass
4) dummy and run -dummy not bought but set up ruck well
5) nice flat pass with zip
6) Knocked on a pass infront of him - 50 / 50 ball
7) Nice simple inside pass
8) Good tackle on ?? Sa loosie
9) takes a pass from wing who had caught a deep ball. counterattacks. Up to line, wide pass nealry intercepted but right option as 3 unmarked wide men for scotland. If the pass had gone to scottish hands ( a matter of inches ) -try scotland, If SA player had caught it try SA
10) 50 m touchfinder perfect lands over the SA wing, 2 m infeild and bounces into touch
11) wide pass - near intercept but knocked on SA but Weir tidies up and takes into contact and sets up good ruck ball
12) short pass from SH to dummies then goes - dummy not bought, into contact but sets up good ruck ball again
Cus on
13) nice pass to centre
14) Knocks on good pass
15) Lovely punt to touch from a pen
16) Missed touch from Pen - nice play from SA wing -Weir tried too hard but would have found touch bar the good SA play
17) Dummy and run but nailed and then set up good ruck ball
18) simple pass to centre
19) simple inside pass
20) Nice pass - simple option
21) lovely weighted kick into corner - nearly a try for the goblin. Nothin else on - nice option
22) scots 5 m scrum. Kicked thru for the runners. Sa defended it well. appeared to be a planned move - discussion pre scrum Cus / weir and centres in position for the kick thru

Observations? Varied the game well. took a couple of high risk options that did not pay off. Kept the opposition guessing with his runs and everytime he was tackled he put the ball back well for good ruck ball.

Lots of chat to his teammates, played OK but unable to unlock the SA defense. Maybe stood a bit deep but took the passes running at pace. Showed a lot of courage.

Really want to see him start agaisnt Aus

Great work, TJ, much appreciated - kind of beggars those that were knocking Weir's contribution. It is fun to go back and do that kind of analysis too

The demented mole blog developed a cracking way of attempting to decipher 'unseen work' at rucks - http://dementedmole.com/2013/10/30/ruck-marks/ - it would be interesting to apply the analysis to Scotland

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