All time British Heavweights - and Haye

Like his early career mentor, Audley, Haye has retired again. Time will tell as to whether he stays retired this time.

His career reads for an interesting one. 2 weight world champion, aside from one early career loss, only ever beaten at the very top level and at a weight in which he was never really comfortable. So far, so like Hatton. However, before Hitman fans tear me apart for comparing the two - the differences between their careers are quite striking. Hatton was a fighter, first and foremost. Haye was always part time with celebrity friends and frequent appearances in the gossip pages section and being more active, has a fuller, more balanced career.

At cruiserweight - Haye has wins over Mormeck, Fragomeni and Maccarinelli, with little else to speak of. He missed out on Bell, Braithwaite and Jones, all decent boxers/pretenders to the throne, campaigning at the weight at the same time and his reign lasted all of one fight. Hardly the stuff of dreams.

At heavy - Haye's record is even more bare. Bonin, Barrett - neither of whom ever were and were both a shade long in the tooth. A version of Valuev, cruelly exposed in his previous fight where he robbed Holyfield blind, who was soon to be banned from fighting and requiring urgent surgery to correct his acromegaly. We have the defence against Ruiz, at least 6-7 years after Ruiz last ceased to be relevant, the farce against Harrison, which I actually paid to watch on PPV for my sins. There is the weak effort against Wladi-K and a shorp, sharp stoppage win over Del-boy. Again - the stuff of dreams it isn't.

However - he WAS a world heavyweight world champion - if he was never thought to be the "man" and Britain hasn't had too many of those.

In my book, there are too many fighters ahead of him in an all time British fighters list to make the list worthwhile. He doesn't make my top 20 at any rate.

So where does he stand in the British all time heavy rankings?

Jeff Powell, occasionally a sensible fellow, has this as a list: 1) Lennox Lewis, 2) Bob Fitzsimmons, 3) Tommy Farr, 4) Henry Cooper, 5) Joe Bugner, 6) Bruce Woodcock, 7) Frank Bruno, 8) Don Cockell, 9) David Haye, 10) Joe Erskine

Whilst I like seeing appreciation for Cockell and Erskine, both sound fighters, does Haye's title win trump their career achievements? I'm undecided - they certainly fought better opposition, but they frequently lost. Equally - in head to heads - I'd back both Erskine and Cockell to beat Bonin, Ruiz, Harrison and that version of Valuev.

Where do you see him?

If looking at where David Haye fits in the British HW rankings then we must ignore his work done at cruiserweight because his record at cruiserweight should have no bearing on his heavyweght rankings position.

If you ignore the fact Haye won the WBA belt at HW and just look at his wins and his opposition then his HW career is rather poor. Wins over Harrisson, Ruiz and Barrett cannot give his HW record any positive credit because those 3 guys were just so poor (Barrett and Ruiz were well past their primes and Harrisson has always been a flop).

Wins over valuev and Chisora are impressive on the surface because Valuev was 7ft and 25 stone and Chisora was a grudge match. However Valuev was past his best and not that good anyway. He lost to Chagaev and 'lost' to Holyfield (judges robbed holyfield of a deserved victory). Chisora had lost 3 fights in 15 and was battling weight problems and was seen as an up and coming fighter rather than an established fighter.

The loss to Wlad shouldn't be used against Haye. Wlad has been the best HW for a decade now and would beat any other HW out there. The manner Haye lost could be used against him tho, he ran scared the whole fight.

Overall Haye's HW record is rather poor. His best wins are against past their primes ordinary fighters and his HW career only lasted about 6 fights so it is hard to really say his HW career was positive.

However Haye did win the WBA belt which people will mistakingly use as a tool to argue Haye deserves to be up there with the best British HW's in the rankings.

Is very tricky oxy. Have to raise the question how highly we value Haye winning a belt, because as you have already said he was never the man at the weight and we do have to assume that had many of the guys listed been around at the time they would potentially have picked up a belt particularly a ticket seller like Cooper who would almost certainly have been found a fairly easy route to winning a belt.

My gut instinct is nine does Haye a bit of a disservice, as you have said a lot of the guys potentially have better names on their ledger but not too many have wins against those guys. They potentially score well in front of him in terms of activity but if we take a guy like Woodcock as an example many of his better wins such as Gilroy and Lesnevich were guys more comfortable at the lighter weights, Gilroy in particular had no real business operating at heavy.

Really would have to give it some proper research and thought to know where to put Haye but as I say my gut is that nine does him a disservice.

Spot on - both Rowley and Champagne Socialist.

There are 2 issues here when compiling an all time ranking for him.

The first is how highly we rate the belt.  If we rate it highly - then there's a case for Hide and Akinwande to be higher, neither of whom had the requisite skilllset/attributes to be in the top 10.

The second is how highly we rate the idea of who Haye would beat.  As a heavyweight, he possessed both speed and power, if a tendency to avoid proper boxing skills and load up with power shots and hooks. He has the skillset, but not the record, to beat many of those fighters Peter lists ahead of him in the all time stakes.  Does his inactivity take away from his ability?  What ranks higher - ability or opponents?

How does Haye fare against the names above him?

Lewis aside, the standout name for me would be Cooper who was little more than a CW himself if records are to be believed.

Taking them at their very best, is there any validity in suggesting that Haye cuts Cooper to ribbons forcing a stoppage? Tough and brave as he was I just can't see Cooper getting anywhere near Haye to land that left hand of his. I think Haye outweighs him and out muscles him.

Unfortunately David Haye will undoubtedly go down (on this forum at least) as a genuine waste of talent.

I don't see Haye as a waste of talent provided you stop at his CW achievements. However, as others have stated, his HW cv is really not much to write home about. Still, he remains the only man to even wobbled Valuev and that must point to some fairly damaging power.

It is such a shame he retreated into his shell against Wlad. I think if he'd gone into the fight in attack instead of survive mode, we could have had some fireworks. Haye would likely have had a hell of a lot more appeciation as a result.

He was quick and had a big dig; most heavies in the current batch are poor and would fall over if he connects. He's not a great, but his power (if somewhat over-rated), was a spectacle.

Always saw Haye as a heavyweight Hamed. Fast, powerful and unorthodox, but no sound fundamentals. His career at heavyweight is very thin and short lived, and lacking any depth. He would be outside my top ten. And to be honest, I can't see a lot of difference between his heavyweight career and Herbie Hide's.

If we are comparing Haye to say Cooper do we ignore his cruiserweight exploits? If we look at Mormeck he would have been a heavyweight in the 60's as would any cruiserweight so I'm inclined to include it. I'd have him about 4th overall behind Lewis, Bruno and possibly Farr.

I don't think we will ever know how good a heavyweight he was or wasn't.

hes much better than Chisora or Barrett, but not as good as Wlad. theres a country mile in between that. I could name 10 current heavyweights who are in that same bracket, and may or may not be better than Haye. He never wanted those fights so we will never know. Makes it very hard to rank him.

Definately behind Lewis and Bruno. Dont really know enough about the rest. Pretty poor if Haye is one of the best heavyweights we produced.

Powell might talk sense sometimes oxy, but he's got his rose tinted specs on here. Cooper at 4? (Or possibly 2 dave?). He lost every time he put his head above the parapet... Ie a decent world level operator. One punch against Ali, a brut advert and a painful run on a lousy sports quiz and the British public go all misty eyed.

He's behind in no particular order, Lewis, fitz, Bruno, bugner, farr, haye... Probably akinwande, hide and mason. All of whom have better records and would have beaten him head to head in my view.  The only people he is above on that list, are his fellow 50 's and 60's horizontal heavies woodcock and erskine.

I'm no fan of haye the person, but I've always thought he was a talent, albeit a frustrating one. I agree with lance to a degree in him being hard to rank, but he'd still be top 5 for me, and probably higher still head to head.

I think we have to include Haye's cruiserweight record as well when trying to evaluate how good a heavyweight he was. As oxy points out, he beat Mormeck, Fragomeni and Maccranelli in good fashion. He may not have taken on Bell, but lets not forget Mormeck had beaten Bell in his previous fight and on leaving the Cruiserweight division, Haye was the undisputed number 1 holding 3 of the 4 belts.

I think Haye deserves a lot more credit than he gets on this board for his heavyweight career and career in general. He got rid of Barett faster than Wlad, and Chisora faster than Vitali, and noone had knocked out Ruiz apart from Tua. So he was clearly fast and powerful. Ok so noone gets any credit for beating Fraudley but he did beat Valuev as well, something that was hugely impressive considering the size difference between the two men. Someone on the board compared Haye to being a heavyweight Hamed, and thats probably fair. But lets not forget that Hamed was one of the finest fighters this country has ever produced. And Haye had to go abroad for both of his major world title wins against Mormeck and Valuev, something no fighter from this country has ever done.

As for the Wlad fight, well at heavy in particular, Haye was always a counter puncher. Problem was every time Wlad missed, he was able to grab hold of Haye or step back out of range. Yes Haye should have changed tactics earlier than the last round and tried to attack but as Adam Booth pointed out, that would have been pretty reckless. But maybe he would have tried something else in a rematch. Sadly we will never know. However I think it says a lot when guys like David Price and Deontay Wilder and Tony Thompson who have sparred with Haye have never dared call him out in the way they call out Tyson Fury or Chisora. They speak of Haye as being a class above. It would have been great to see Haye against guys like Wilder, Charr, Povetkin, Solis, Pulev and others but surely you can't blame a guy for being injury prone.

As for how Haye compares against other British heavyweights, well I would definitely have him in the top 5. Lewis obviously stands apart with his record of beating every man he ever faced. But how anyone can say Bruno deserves to be rated higher than Haye I will never know. I loved Bruno, dont get me wrong, but who the hell did he actually beat? If Bruno had been subjected to the kind of analysis Haye has on this and other boards I dread to think how Bruno's career would have been remembered. Haye finishes with a record of 28 fights, 26 wins 24 knockouts and with that kind of power, my bet is he would have had Bruno out of there inside 6 rounds. Hopefully with time, the anger that some people have for Haye will subside and he can be given the kind of credit he deserves. Yes we all wanted more, but lets make no mistake here. He was one of the very finest fighters this country has ever produced.

Haye the heavyweight Hamed? Jesus H C. How can anyone be rated highly beating the kind of past it, crap fighters Haye did and then putting in such a crap display against Klitschko.

Ronikara wrote:I think we have to include Haye's cruiserweight record as well when trying to evaluate how good a heavyweight he was. As oxy points out, he beat Mormeck, Fragomeni and Maccranelli in good fashion. He may not have taken on Bell, but lets not forget Mormeck had beaten Bell in his previous fight and on leaving the Cruiserweight division, Haye was the undisputed number 1 holding 3 of the 4 belts.

I think Haye deserves a lot more credit than he gets on this board for his heavyweight career and career in general. He got rid of Barett faster than Wlad, and Chisora faster than Vitali, and noone had knocked out Ruiz apart from Tua. So he was clearly fast and powerful. Ok so noone gets any credit for beating Fraudley but he did beat Valuev as well, something that was hugely impressive considering the size difference between the two men. Someone on the board compared Haye to being a heavyweight Hamed, and thats probably fair. But lets not forget that Hamed was one of the finest fighters this country has ever produced. And Haye had to go abroad for both of his major world title wins against Mormeck and Valuev, something no fighter from this country has ever done.

As for the Wlad fight, well at heavy in particular, Haye was always a counter puncher. Problem was every time Wlad missed, he was able to grab hold of Haye or step back out of range. Yes Haye should have changed tactics earlier than the last round and tried to attack but as Adam Booth pointed out, that would have been pretty reckless. But maybe he would have tried something else in a rematch. Sadly we will never know. However I think it says a lot when guys like David Price and Deontay Wilder and Tony Thompson who have sparred with Haye have never dared call him out in the way they call out Tyson Fury or Chisora. They speak of Haye as being a class above. It would have been great to see Haye against guys like Wilder, Charr, Povetkin, Solis, Pulev and others but surely you can't blame a guy for being injury prone.

As for how Haye compares against other British heavyweights, well I would definitely have him in the top 5. Lewis obviously stands apart with his record of beating every man he ever faced. But how anyone can say Bruno deserves to be rated higher than Haye I will never know. I loved Bruno, dont get me wrong, but who the hell did he actually beat? If Bruno had been subjected to the kind of analysis Haye has on this and other boards I dread to think how Bruno's career would have been remembered. Haye finishes with a record of 28 fights, 26 wins 24 knockouts and with that kind of power, my bet is he would have had Bruno out of there inside 6 rounds. Hopefully with time, the anger that some people have for Haye will subside and he can be given the kind of credit he deserves. Yes we all wanted more,  but lets make no mistake here. He was one of the very finest fighters this country has ever produced.

wow that's some spin. you should go into politics

[quote="Ronikara"]I think we have to include Haye's cruiserweight record as well when trying to evaluate how good a heavyweight he was. /quote]

Why? His CW record should have no affect on his hw legacy because they are different weight classes.

I have Haye above Frank.............Though I think Frank cleans up these days..Wlad being the only question mark........Vitali was made for Bruno's vicious straight punches......

Frank won the title against an obviously disturbed Mccall............and lost all his biggest fights.........Unfortunately because he fought the best Witherspoon should have been a great, Tyson and Lewis both were.........

I give Frank a pass on Smith because he completely owned the guy and it was almost painfully sad to see a guy suckered like that...No justice..........

Haye had a better title record than Frankie...........Though Frank was capable of beating top fighters of his day........Lawless made sure that didn't happen..........Between title fights It was one-last-pay-day guys.........

Haye above Bruno for me...........Though I will say Wlad finds Bruno a logistical nightmare with his jab.......Wlad comes in to hold straight ahead and Bruno's world class jab stops that and If he landed the right .........Boom.......

Sad but I wish we could send Haye back to the 80's and watch Frank now..........

I don't think Powell's too far off the mark. Haye's heavyweight record is thin and relatively unremarkable -- although I'd probably edge him above Cockell.

Ronikara wrote:I think we have to include Haye's cruiserweight record as well when trying to evaluate how good a heavyweight he was.

That's completely illogical I'm afraid.

Not sure that I'd call Jeff Powell a sensible fellow these days, and I've never been all that convinced that he knows as much as he should, bearing in mind his calling. Still, apart from the desire that he shares with all his generation to overrate Henry Cooper, his list of British heavyweights is a long way from his worst effort.

I shall, as always, leave Fitz aside, on the grounds that he barely saw Britain again after the age of nine, never to fight in a British ring or contest a British belt, although he did scrap for Australian/New Zealand titles. Lennox is incontestably number one, of course, with daylight second. Such has been the poverty of British heavyweight boxing over the years that Bruno would rank a clear second for me and Farr an equally clear third.

Bugner at least fought the head men of his generation and acquitted himself superbly against Frazier and not badly in his first effort against Ali, so he would take fourth place in my table. After that, I'm not fussed about whether you choose to pick Haye or Gary Mason, who is mystifyingly absent from Powell's list and was an extremely useful fringe world-class operator. Both would rank clearly ahead of Cooper in my list, who probably gets seventh, ahead of Woodcock and maybe Cockell and Horace Notice (Akinwande and Hide conceivable alternatives).

Haye was, as everyone has recognised, a far superior force at cruiserweight - his win over Mormeck is one of Britain's best of recent years. If you take his career in the round, I think it's fair to place Haye in the middle of the 20-30 rung on the all-time UK ladder. Not bad at all, just not as good as he has always trumpeted to everyone who would listen.

On reflection, Erskine may well deserve to take the number ten spot, if only because he gave Johansson plenty of aggravation in Ingo's prime and actually beat Chuvalo, albeit on a DQ. Notice has to go, therefore, and it's probably fair to put Hide and Akinwande ahead of Horace as well. Scraping the barrel a bit down at number ten!

It's an interesting one isn't it............Haye's legacy is slightly linked to how you rate World titles and whether you regard them as being near ther pinnacle of the sport...

The Captain mentions names..some I've heard of more than others, but they never became top dog......Me I put a lot of store into becoming top dog......

Haye was a world champion............For me that puts a guy like Tubbs higher than a Big cat Williams in a heavyweight list.......

I put Harrington way above Monty though he had less overall success because he won the big ones..

Respect to those that disagree............Just my philosophy.

The only problem Truss is, when comparing across the eras is it is not a level playing field. Haye won a belt because there are four of them and the governing bodies move heaven and earth to ensure one guy does not hold them all. If there was only one belt Wlad would hold it and Haye would not have won a title. As I mentioned earlier throw four belts around and the various super and emeritus belts into the mix 50 years ago and a good chance many of the guys up for discussion would have held one.

The thing is Rowley............I'd pick Jerry Quarry to beat every guy before Louis..and I'd even give him a good shot of beating him....

I think Quarry beat better fighters than Jack johnson and Dempsey also...

But I'm not going to stick him in a top 10 soon..

It's a tough one.

I'm sympathetic with your argument.......

I think when it comes to British heavies, we're scraping the barrel a bit earlier than number 10 captain!

But just imagine how good cooper would have been if he hadn't been blinded by the sun, unlucky to be cut, robbed by the ref etc.

Forgot about Horace notice, good pro, just too small.

I think it's petfectly fair to take  haye's cruiser career into account when you consider that cooper et al were pretty much cruisers anyway.

To be honest I've only ever really heard the cooper detractors say that Bugner won that fight..

Consensus seems to be robbery on that one..

Then again doesn't matter now..

milkyboy wrote:I think when it comes to British heavies, we're scraping the barrel a bit earlier than number 10 captain!

But just imagine how good cooper would have been if he hadn't been blinded by the sun, unlucky to be cut, robbed by the ref etc.

Forgot about Horace notice, good pro, just too small.

I think it's petfectly fair to take  haye's cruiser career into account when you consider that cooper et al were pretty much cruisers anyway.

If Cooper et al were privy to whatever methods Haye deploys in order to blow himself up to heavyweight -- they'd be heavyweights.

Watch it truss, no robbery. Close fight, could have gone either way. The real victim was bugner who was villainised by the press for someone else's decision.

Not a cooper detractor, just keeping the waingro's of this world straight!

I never said it was a robbery........Just said it was the consensus view..

So you're not putting this waingro straight are you ??

hazharrison wrote:

milkyboy wrote:I think when it comes to British heavies, we're scraping the barrel a bit earlier than number 10 captain!

But just imagine how good cooper would have been if he hadn't been blinded by the sun, unlucky to be cut, robbed by the ref etc.

Forgot about Horace notice, good pro, just too small.

I think it's petfectly fair to take  haye's cruiser career into account when you consider that cooper et al were pretty much cruisers anyway.

If Cooper et al were privy to whatever methods Haye deploys in order to blow himself up to heavyweight -- they'd be heavyweights.

Perhaps haz, but if there hadn't been a cruiserweight division to boil down to, haye would always have been a heavy. Bigger man than cooper with or without Assistance

It's just a cheap pop.........Haye wasn't a big heavy either.........Not like he had 18 inch arms are anything....

Most cruisers can make 215 and still look good I expect...

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:I never said it was a robbery........Just said it was the consensus view..

So you're not putting this waingro straight are you ??

Waingro loved cooper truss. It wasn't a pop at you... On this occasion. It's the consensus view among those who haven't watched the fight, not sure what the consensus is from those who have.

Harry Carpenter was ringside wasn't he ??

Windy wasn't a Cooper detractor and he had it a point either way, truss. Which is the nub of the issue...that fight was close enough for robbery to have been a ridiculous shout, whoever won it. If that had been Bugner beating Bodell, for example, we wouldn't have heard a peep. Because it was St. Henry, because Joe had the temerity to be Hungarian-born and speak with a slightly odd accent, because Harry Carpenter went gaga about it on the air and because Henry then refused to speak to Harry Gibbs for twenty-odd years, the "consensus" is robbery.

The "consensus" is that Henry would have KO'd Ali if Dundee hadn't split his glove, which only goes to show what popular opinion counts for a lot of the time. A myth, just like the "robbery" against Bugner. Mind you, if Henry had been privy to the weight-gaining methods used by Haye, Holyfield et al, he still wouldn't have got into the ring with Liston or Frazier, so we'd still be none the wiser about whether he could have cut it (so to speak) against the nastier heavyweights of his day.

Yes, it was harry and Henry and some of their press row buddies who created the robbery storm truss

The real shame is that bugner could fight (although there were plenty of times where it looked like he didnt want to). Had the British public got behind him, we might possibly have had a heavy to be proud of in the 70's.

I include Haye's record at Cruiserweight when evaluating his Heavyweight record because in the old days they would have been heavyweights and also because Haye never fought guys like Wilder, Povetkin, Solis etc. but would have been a heavy favourite to win based on his performances in both weight divisions. It's not ideal, and of course I would much rather have seen him fight those guys but Haye was very injury prone. That does not make him a bad fighter once he got in the ring.

I think the other thing when evaluating Haye that needs to be considered is just how much the Klitschko brothers are underrated in the all time great lists. Everyone just seems to assume that guys like Ali, Frazier, a prime Tyson etc. would have walked through the brothers, particularly Wlad but I don't agree. The size difference and sheer athleticism would have caused any of the greats real problems. Ali was a similar size to Haye himself and had a similar back foot counter punching style. Who can honestly say that Ali would have been able to get to Wlad any better than Haye did? No I'm not saying that Haye was as good as Ali but there were similarities in styles and that suggests that Wlad may have beaten Ali in a similar way considering how easy Wlad made Haye look. And considering how much I hate Wlad, thats not an easy thing to admit!

As for Frazier and Tyson these guys were less that 6ft tall. Anyone who saw the Wlad v Povetkin fight or any other Wlad fight would see how referees allow Wlad to wrestle and hold on to his opponents. That combined with Wlad's jab and right hand would have made Wlad a nightmare even for those guys, even if we know that Wlad's chin is questionable. As the Haye fight proved, having the power to knock Wlad out is one thing, being able to use it is quite another.

My point is apart from Lewis, all the British heavyweights we've been talking about fell short at the very elite level whether they won a belt or not. But considering Haye's wins at world level at Heavyweight (Barrett, a former world title challenger, Ruiz a former world champion, Valuev and Chisora, a former world title challenger who gave Vitali problems) and the manner of his wins, he has to be considered right up there with the best of the rest of British heavyweights below Lewis. He should have fought more than he did which is why I have him in the top 5 rather than as number 2 but lets try to focus on the positives of a career that was fun while it lasted.

Have the utmost respect for Windy and yourself...even Milky too sometimes!! 

I'm just pointing out that It's pretty self evident that you dislike Cooper and that from reading about the fight (Haven't watched it) consensus has a robbery....

Close decisions sometimes become robberies over time you're right about that.....

Think also you patronise the press and Carpenter for not being able to be professional.....Milky..

Not worth getting into the pram about.........Just pointing out that most writeups suggest robbery..whether it was or wasn't.........

I'm certainly not Cooper's number one fan, but I would hope that this wouldn't affect the way I read a fight in which he was involved. I yield to no-one in my dislike for a lot of Haye's shenanigans as a heavyweight, but I like to think that I'm capable of putting the animus aside when trying to judge his relative worth in British terms. On a side note, I'm amused to see you suggest that Milky has patronised Carpenter....no-one on this board has been louder in his disdain for Harry than you, truss, particularly in Tyson-Bruno I.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Have the utmost respect for Windy and yourself...even Milky too sometimes!! 

I'm just pointing out that It's pretty self evident that you dislike Cooper and that from reading about the fight (Haven't watched it) consensus has a robbery....

Close decisions sometimes become robberies over time you're right about that.....

Think also you patronise the press and Carpenter for not being able to be professional.....Milky..

Not worth getting into the pram about.........Just pointing out that most writeups suggest robbery..whether it was or wasn't.........

"Get in there, Frank!!!!!!!!!!!" Ring any bells TRUSS? You constantly slate Carpenter for his unprofessionalism/unrepentant jingoism

You're right.......The way I wrote the Carpenter bit suggests complete hypocrisy......

I was thinking more of him scoring the fight as to wanting someone to win......

Either way it's unprofessional.......So you've slapped me good..(Windy-esque)

So I take that back..........But will add I imagine many did have Cooper winning the fight that weren't biased.....

Anyway let's quickly move on !!  

Ha trussy, that's the nub, for the most part carpenter was a good commentator but he had his favourites, cooper was one.

Cooper was an institution, I don't like the excuses he had for his defeats but that hardly sets him apart from plenty of others. Basically the knock down against Ali and the sympathy of the split glove made him as the captain says, a saint.

I have my favourites like anyone but what does rile me is 1. His record and abilities get overplayed 2, the impact on bugner of that fight (which cooper helped fan the flames of). 3. His treatment of Harry Gibbs.

He had one good win in his first fight with zora folley. He was sparked in the return. His other wins were euro level. So well short of top 4 British heavies for me on record alone.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:You're right.......The way I wrote the Carpenter bit suggests complete hypocrisy......

I was thinking more of him scoring the fight as to wanting someone to win......

Either way it's unprofessional.......So you've slapped me good..(Windy-esque)

So I take that back..........But will add I imagine many did have Cooper winning the fight that weren't biased.....

Anyway let's quickly move on !!  

Has some hacked TRUSS's account?

What good wins did Frank really have...Milky......?

Not playing devil's advocate but.........The finished Coetzee, Williams and a institution headed Mccall who just wasn't interested..

That's the problem...........Lewis aside who some call British while taking Fitz out of the Brit pot.......There ain't much.........

Decking the greatest and having him close to a stoppage suddenly becomes a way into the game as does Farr extending Louis..

It's a fair point truss, as I alluded to earlier, good British heavies have historically been thin on the ground. Bruno, mason etc beat mainly gate keeping journeymen at best, but I'd argue McCall and Biggs say were still a cut above anything cooper beat.

Cooper also got sparked by johanneson and Patterson. He was a decent fighter and unlucky with cuts but its a legend based on one punch.

Think as has been pointed out most the heavies on the list are noted mainly for who they have lost to rather than who they have beaten. However think in that list Bruno probably still scores fairly well. Tyson aside there are very few of his losses where you can say he was absolutely dominated. As Truss is fond of pointing out he was outjabbing Lewis early doors and whilst it an absolute age since I watched the fight don’t remember Witherspoon taking him to the cleaners although the memory may be playing tricks on me.

I respect Frank these days..Often said I think he'd beat Vitali and 50/50 with Wlad....

He did lose his biggest fights because he was in a top era.......

Cooper and Bugner were too......

First guy to hurt Tyson and gave a fat Witherspoon hell until he got knackered...

He outjabbed Lewis also......

Record wise he ain't got much.