What the hell is going on in Wales?

First topic message reminder :

Hello knowledgeable Welsh friends. I've read some extraordinary things lately about the war between the regions and the union in Wales, but being an outsider, and not following this closely for years I'm not sure what's real and what's nonsense. Can someone please help clarify a few things for me?

1. I read that the WRU have a deal with the regions that they will each be given the same amount of money annually by the union for the next five years. This was interpreted by some as the union deciding to slowly let the regions go bust so they can set up new regions that they would own. Is this really the case?  It sounds completely crazy to me! Wouldn't this be a disaster in Welsh rugby and couldn't they try to buy the regions instead since they have more money now? Could this really be a plan?

2. The WRU is making a profit and with the millenium stadium paid off should have plenty of money to splash about in the future. (Or do they?) As they won't give more money to the regions this suggests that they want the regions to founder (see above).

3. Although the WRU pay millions to the regions annually they have little or no say in how they are run so are deeply frustrated with the regions. Also the regions can't stand the WRU even though they're keeping them afloat. Is this true and why?

4. The WRU offered central contracts to the players in the regions but the regions rejected this. Even though they would have a smaller wage bill if it went ahead. Why?
The regions have the lowest salary cap in Europe and keep losing their best players. But the regions won't let the WRU pay the internationals out of a central contract. As players have to be released anyway to play for Wales I don't see why the clubs wouldn't be delighted to do this. Are they afraid that they would lose them to too many training camps? I don't follow the logic of this. If the WRU paid the players then surely the regions would be able to keep more of their best players playing in Wales which surely would benefit them as they'd have stronger teams. Again I don't get why this is such a problem.

(Please don't include the possible move to the AP on this thread. It's being debated elsewhere.)

Steffan wrote:

quinsforever wrote:pls define proper regions in wales

Something that represents a large area and has no relation to a town name or to a Welsh club.

Like the Ospreys, sort of?

wayne wrote:There are a number of serious misconceptions on here that need to be adressed, Notch the WRU don't give us anything, the TV money we receive is our money, it is chanelled through the WRU, the only other money we receive is what is negotiated through the PA. THEY GIVE US NOTHING.

Bolded the obvious contradiction. There is an amount of WRU funding given out under the PA, problem is its not enough. They give you the amount of money you can be trusted with from what I see though. The WRU only slightly fund teams that are privately run- if they have more of a say in running those teams they can release more funds because they know the aims of the regions and the national teams are in line then.

The problem is money. The WRU have it, RRW doesn't. Give up control in some form to the WRU in exchange for more money. Whether its allowing the WRU to centrally contract players or run the regions- the national team needs to subsidise the regional teams and that can only happen when there are guarantees that the money is going to be pished away in place.

Also, about the TV deal- I think it illustrates the whole problem with the regions. They are just after publishing confidential information about current TV deals on the regions websites. This is brilliant for anyone on the other side of the negotiating table when we talk about future TV deals! Also, this public infighting and dirty laundry airing is great for attracting future sponsors to the Pro12   

If its an indication that the regions are thinking Aviva Prem or bust then they will disappear over night very soon and the consequences for Welsh rugby are pretty dire in the short term. A court battle, followed by the current regions disappearing and new teams being set-up when there is still a chance to re-purpose the existing teams.

Notch wrote:

wayne wrote:There are a number of serious misconceptions on here that need to be adressed, Notch the WRU don't give us anything, the TV money we receive is our money, it is chanelled through the WRU, the only other money we receive is what is negotiated through the PA. THEY GIVE US NOTHING.

Bolded the obvious contradiction. There is an amount of WRU funding given out under the PA, problem is its not enough. They give you the amount of money you can be trusted with from what I see though. The WRU fund teams that are privately run to a small extent- if they have more of a say in running those teams they can release more funds because they know the aims of the regions and the national teams are in line then.

The problem is money. The WRU have it, RRW doesn't. Give up control in some form to the WRU in exchange for more money. Whether its allowing the WRU to centrally contract players or run the regions- the national team needs to subsidise the regional teams and that can only happen when there are guarantees that the money is going to be pished away in place.

They did then when they signed the last PA; 4th AI, more access to players than ever and other things.
Going out now.

Id be more than happy for the current pro-clubs to enter the AP. As long as we called a spade a spade though and they entered as Cardiff RFC, Llanelli RFC and Newport RFC. I would even cheer them on now they are not pretending to be something they aint   . Not sure what would happen with the Opsreys. Possibly enter as Swansea RFC? They would have to be self-funded though like the rest of the AP teams. Possibly the WRU could make some contribution to keep the best Welsh players at them but that being said would they want to if they had 3-regions of they're own in Wales? That would be a good outcome though 3-4 Welsh clubs in the AP and 3-4 Regions in the Rabo

Steffan wrote:Id be more than happy for the current pro-clubs to enter the AP. As long as we called a spade a spade though and they entered as Cardiff RFC, Llanelli RFC and Newport RFC. I would even cheer them on now they are not pretending to be something they aint   . Not sure what would happen with the Opsreys. Possibly enter as Swansea RFC? They would have to be self-funded though like the rest of the AP teams. Possibly the WRU could make some contribution to keep the best Welsh players at them but that being said would they want to if they had 3-regions of they're own in Wales? That would be a good outcome though 3-4 Welsh clubs in the AP and 3-4 Regions in the Rabo

But why should it be those specific clubs and not others? Too many fans will remain utterly disenfranchised. If those clubs play in the english system (why the english would be happy with that, I don't know) their futures will continue to be uncertain. What if the saes decide to go back to the HEC - what then? Also if there isn't enough money to go around now why on earth would the WRU start up new teams AND give any money to four clubs outside their juristriction.

The way I see it is that we can either afford our own pro league or we can't and we put regional sides into the celtic league (which consists of regions - a better fit than regions & clubs) and focus our resources on the top 70 or so players. I don't think anyone believes that Wales can support a professional league like the Aviva Prem. We tried. Neath and Swansea went bust, Scarlets sold Stradey to the WRU to stay afloat whilst others were also perilously close to the receivers! We have about £16m or thereabouts to fund professional rugby in Wales. At current market prices that gets us two teams of the best players and maybe we can afford a development team.

Don't worry about this business of the English pulling out of the HEC. They won't want to be in the wilderness for too long. We'll be playing them again before very long. Perhaps the LV will start getting interesting   

Well I was just putting an idea out there. To be honest I am also happy with the idea of the current pro-clubs being shutdown and 3-4 brand new regions brought into place either playing in the Rabo or the Aviva. That idea gets shotdown as well though so it just seems whatever system gets suggested will have faults that everyone likes to pick out. Shame the WRU couldnt have just got it right 10 years ago

Moffet's pitching in:

http://www.espn.co.uk/wales/rugby/story/209571.html

Steffan wrote:Well I was just putting an idea out there. To be honest I am also happy with the idea of the current pro-clubs being shutdown and 3-4 brand new regions brought into place either playing in the Rabo or the Aviva. That idea gets shotdown as well though so it just seems whatever system gets suggested will have faults that everyone likes to pick out. Shame the WRU couldnt have just got it right 10 years ago

Amen to that!

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:Moffet's pitching in:

http://www.espn.co.uk/wales/rugby/story/209571.html

Thought Moffet would have been well advised to keep his head down, and say nothing. Maybe can't help himself.

Notch wrote:

Griff wrote:Rebuilt as what Notch? More invented 'regions'?

The WRU WILL NOT buy the regions out. Too much risk, and they do not take such risks.

Right now, the problems are firstly the regions are failing as businesses and can not afford to keep the real assets of Welsh rugby- the players- and secondly, the regions and the Union have different objectives. The regions don't need removed but they certainly need revamped and they need rethought- and they need a change of management. Whats more, they can't be trusted with the responsibility of holding the players contracts. Having the Union in charge of that makes the most sense, as they have the deepest pockets and the most vested interest in keeping players in Wales which is surely what the fans want.

The WRU can only have confidence in releasing the funds to secure players if they have control of the negotiations and if they have control over contracts. With central contracts paid for by the WRU out of TV money generated by the national team and regions, the regions will be left with much less funding from the WRU but also no expenses with regards to their playing staff. With the bulk of the costs falling on the WRU and the bulk of the budget available to pay all the pro players coming from money earned from the national team they can't be accused of not providing adequate funds anymore and the regional management can then focus on trying to make the regions a more attractive proposition.

All of this would require the current regional set-ups to agree to step aside. It's getting rid of those who have tried and failed that is the problem for the WRU.

Hi Notch. I'm interested in the bolded bit above. The WRU would surely only centrally contract 20-30 players. That'll probably cost them £10m alone. But you say that with central contracts the regions would have no expenses with regards their playing staff. However, 4 regions probably have 35-40 players on their books. Let's say 140 players across the 4 regions. Take off the centrally contracted players and that's still some 100+ player wages to cover. As I understand it, in Ireland after central contracts are paid the provinces still get some 5m euros each (actually more like 6m euros for the big 3 as Connacht get less) which can be used for the rest of the squad wages. In Wales, that equivalent £4m that they currently get for everyone's wages would be stopped as it would be used for the aforementioned central contacts. I'm pretty sure that tickets and merchandising will not cover the rest of the circa 30 players' wages in each region. The WRU obviously wouldn't be able to centrally contract the whole 140 odd players either.

Griff wrote:

Notch wrote:

Griff wrote:Rebuilt as what Notch? More invented 'regions'?

The WRU WILL NOT buy the regions out. Too much risk, and they do not take such risks.

Right now, the problems are firstly the regions are failing as businesses and can not afford to keep the real assets of Welsh rugby- the players- and secondly, the regions and the Union have different objectives. The regions don't need removed but they certainly need revamped and they need rethought- and they need a change of management. Whats more, they can't be trusted with the responsibility of holding the players contracts. Having the Union in charge of that makes the most sense, as they have the deepest pockets and the most vested interest in keeping players in Wales which is surely what the fans want.

The WRU can only have confidence in releasing the funds to secure players if they have control of the negotiations and if they have control over contracts. With central contracts paid for by the WRU out of TV money generated by the national team and regions, the regions will be left with much less funding from the WRU but also no expenses with regards to their playing staff. With the bulk of the costs falling on the WRU and the bulk of the budget available to pay all the pro players coming from money earned from the national team they can't be accused of not providing adequate funds anymore and the regional management can then focus on trying to make the regions a more attractive proposition.

All of this would require the current regional set-ups to agree to step aside. It's getting rid of those who have tried and failed that is the problem for the WRU.

Hi Notch. I'm interested in the bolded bit above. The WRU would surely only centrally contract 20-30 players. That'll probably cost them £10m alone. But you say that with central contracts the regions would have no expenses with regards their playing staff. However, 4 regions probably have 35-40 players on their books. Let's say 140 players across the 4 regions. Take off the centrally contracted players and that's still some 100+ player wages to cover. As I understand it, in Ireland after central contracts are paid the provinces still get some 5m euros each (actually more like 6m euros for the big 3 as Connacht get less) which can be used for the rest of the squad wages. In Wales, that equivalent £4m that they currently get for everyone's wages would be stopped as it would be used for the aforementioned central contacts. I'm pretty sure that tickets and merchandising will not cover the rest of the circa 30 players' wages in each region. The WRU obviously wouldn't be able to centrally contract the whole 140 odd players either.

Unless it turns out to be about 70 players.

It's got to be 4 teams for me in order to develop the sort of depth we need for international success. With 4 teams you have the potential to have 4 welsh scrum halves for example playing week in week out. With only 2 sides then only 2 are playing regularly. The welsh squad usually has 3 players in a each position (give or take) so you'd end up taking someone for Wales who doesn't play much.

A bit simplistic I realise, but 2 is too few for me.

Griff wrote:

Notch wrote:

Griff wrote:Rebuilt as what Notch? More invented 'regions'?

The WRU WILL NOT buy the regions out. Too much risk, and they do not take such risks.

Right now, the problems are firstly the regions are failing as businesses and can not afford to keep the real assets of Welsh rugby- the players- and secondly, the regions and the Union have different objectives. The regions don't need removed but they certainly need revamped and they need rethought- and they need a change of management. Whats more, they can't be trusted with the responsibility of holding the players contracts. Having the Union in charge of that makes the most sense, as they have the deepest pockets and the most vested interest in keeping players in Wales which is surely what the fans want.

The WRU can only have confidence in releasing the funds to secure players if they have control of the negotiations and if they have control over contracts. With central contracts paid for by the WRU out of TV money generated by the national team and regions, the regions will be left with much less funding from the WRU but also no expenses with regards to their playing staff. With the bulk of the costs falling on the WRU and the bulk of the budget available to pay all the pro players coming from money earned from the national team they can't be accused of not providing adequate funds anymore and the regional management can then focus on trying to make the regions a more attractive proposition.

All of this would require the current regional set-ups to agree to step aside. It's getting rid of those who have tried and failed that is the problem for the WRU.

Hi Notch. I'm interested in the bolded bit above. The WRU would surely only centrally contract 20-30 players. That'll probably cost them £10m alone. But you say that with central contracts the regions would have no expenses with regards their playing staff. However, 4 regions probably have 35-40 players on their books. Let's say 140 players across the 4 regions. Take off the centrally contracted players and that's still some 100+ player wages to cover. As I understand it, in Ireland after central contracts are paid the provinces still get some 5m euros each (actually more like 6m euros for the big 3 as Connacht get less) which can be used for the rest of the squad wages. In Wales, that equivalent £4m that they currently get for everyone's wages would be stopped as it would be used for the aforementioned central contacts. I'm pretty sure that tickets and merchandising will not cover the rest of the circa 30 players' wages in each region. The WRU obviously wouldn't be able to centrally contract the whole 140 odd players either.

No, I am suggesting that the WRU follow the example of the IRFU and centrally contract every professional player in Wales. The WRU get the full amount of TV income from both regional and international rugby. The IRFU pay the wages of every player in Ireland with the provinces repaying the IRFU for all but a select group of internationals. There's no reason something similar couldn't work in Wales.

The easier thing to do would be for the WRU but I'm suggesting the WRU put their money where their mouth is and take on responsibility to pay for Welsh players by centrally contracting the entire player base. The regions would need to then pay some of the money they raise in sponsorship back to the WRU to make up the shortfall. But there's no hiding from the fact they need better crowds, more lucrative sponsorship etc. to survive.

The 4 million paid currently would be for the elite group, all the TV money would be for the rest of the player base and any shortfall would need to be contributed by the regions. The WRU is inherently in a stronger financial position than the regions and much more stable in the short-term, so they should take on the primary responsibility of paying Welsh players- instead of the WRU paying RRW for player release and the regions basically underwriting the Union by paying players the Union have first dibs on the regions would be paying the Union for player release and the Union would have more control over the player base.

I just believe that if the priority is international rugby, it's the Unions responsibility to pay the players out of that pot. Also the regions are unstable and possibly doomed for failure. If it becomes necessary to set-up new teams, centrally contracted players can be moved to the new sides.

Munchkin wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:Moffet's pitching in:

http://www.espn.co.uk/wales/rugby/story/209571.html

Thought Moffet would have been well advised to keep his head down, and say nothing. Maybe can't help himself.

As the man who got is so, so badly wrong in the first place it's quite bizarre how he's listened to.

Notch wrote:
No, I am suggesting that the WRU follow the example of the IRFU and centrally contract every professional player in Wales. The WRU get the full amount of TV income from both regional and international rugby. The IRFU pay the wages of every player in Ireland with the provinces repaying the IRFU for all but a select group of internationals. There's no reason something similar couldn't work in Wales.

The easier thing to do would be for the WRU but I'm suggesting the WRU put their money where their mouth is and take on responsibility to pay for Welsh players by centrally contracting the entire player base. The regions would need to then pay some of the money they raise in sponsorship back to the WRU to make up the shortfall. But there's no hiding from the fact they need better crowds, more lucrative sponsorship etc. to survive.

The 4 million paid currently would be for the elite group, all the TV money would be for the rest of the player base and any shortfall would need to be contributed by the regions. The WRU is inherently in a stronger financial position than the regions and much more stable in the short-term, so they should take on the primary responsibility of paying Welsh players- instead of the WRU paying RRW for player release and the regions basically underwriting the Union by paying players the Union have first dibs on the regions would be paying the Union for player release and the Union would have more control over the player base.

I just believe that if the priority is international rugby, it's the Unions responsibility to pay the players out of that pot. Also the regions are unstable and possibly doomed for failure. If it becomes necessary to set-up new teams, centrally contracted players can be moved to the new sides.

Cheers Notch. Yes, I tend to agree. If the WRU can afford to pay for every player's wage by retaining competition monies and some of the gate receipts, etc. like in Ireland then fantastic. It would certainly help, and would take some pressure off the regions who can perhaps concentrate more on getting the crowds in. I'd be happy for that.

My only question is whether the WRU could afford it. Or more specifically, whether they would be willing to afford it. In Ireland the union pays for everything in the long run. But I would wager it's over and above what the provinces get from tickets, I.e. They put in extra on top of the tv money and the 50% ticket sales. I wonder if the WRU would want to put in the extra. Although I've no idea how much it would cost to pay for 140 or so pro players. Any ideas?

The WRU have to realise they can't do it on the cheap. We were lucky in Ireland in that we didn't get suckered into redeveloping our national stadium early in the professional era and when we did, we did it in partnership with the football.

[quote="Notch"][quote="Munchkin"][quote="Totallybiasedscarlet"]Moffet's pitching in:

[url=http://www.espn.co.uk/wales/rugby/story/209571.html]http://www.espn.co.uk/wales/rugby/story/209571.html[/url][/quote]

Thought Moffet would have been well advised to keep his head down, and say nothing. Maybe can't help himself.[/quote]

As the man who got is so, so badly wrong in the first place it's quite bizarre how he's listened to.[/quote]

___________________________________________


He screwed up big time when he was in office.

As you rightly point out he should keep out of things

Notch wrote:

Griff wrote:

Notch wrote:

Griff wrote:Rebuilt as what Notch? More invented 'regions'?

The WRU WILL NOT buy the regions out. Too much risk, and they do not take such risks.

Right now, the problems are firstly the regions are failing as businesses and can not afford to keep the real assets of Welsh rugby- the players- and secondly, the regions and the Union have different objectives. The regions don't need removed but they certainly need revamped and they need rethought- and they need a change of management. Whats more, they can't be trusted with the responsibility of holding the players contracts. Having the Union in charge of that makes the most sense, as they have the deepest pockets and the most vested interest in keeping players in Wales which is surely what the fans want.

The WRU can only have confidence in releasing the funds to secure players if they have control of the negotiations and if they have control over contracts. With central contracts paid for by the WRU out of TV money generated by the national team and regions, the regions will be left with much less funding from the WRU but also no expenses with regards to their playing staff. With the bulk of the costs falling on the WRU and the bulk of the budget available to pay all the pro players coming from money earned from the national team they can't be accused of not providing adequate funds anymore and the regional management can then focus on trying to make the regions a more attractive proposition.

All of this would require the current regional set-ups to agree to step aside. It's getting rid of those who have tried and failed that is the problem for the WRU.

Hi Notch. I'm interested in the bolded bit above. The WRU would surely only centrally contract 20-30 players. That'll probably cost them £10m alone. But you say that with central contracts the regions would have no expenses with regards their playing staff. However, 4 regions probably have 35-40 players on their books. Let's say 140 players across the 4 regions. Take off the centrally contracted players and that's still some 100+ player wages to cover. As I understand it, in Ireland after central contracts are paid the provinces still get some 5m euros each (actually more like 6m euros for the big 3 as Connacht get less) which can be used for the rest of the squad wages. In Wales, that equivalent £4m that they currently get for everyone's wages would be stopped as it would be used for the aforementioned central contacts. I'm pretty sure that tickets and merchandising will not cover the rest of the circa 30 players' wages in each region. The WRU obviously wouldn't be able to centrally contract the whole 140 odd players either.

No, I am suggesting that the WRU follow the example of the IRFU and centrally contract every professional player in Wales. The WRU get the full amount of TV income from both regional and international rugby. The IRFU pay the wages of every player in Ireland with the provinces repaying the IRFU for all but a select group of internationals. There's no reason something similar couldn't work in Wales.

The easier thing to do would be for the WRU but I'm suggesting the WRU put their money where their mouth is and take on responsibility to pay for Welsh players by centrally contracting the entire player base. The regions would need to then pay some of the money they raise in sponsorship back to the WRU to make up the shortfall. But there's no hiding from the fact they need better crowds, more lucrative sponsorship etc. to survive.

The 4 million paid currently would be for the elite group, all the TV money would be for the rest of the player base and any shortfall would need to be contributed by the regions. The WRU is inherently in a stronger financial position than the regions and much more stable in the short-term, so they should take on the primary responsibility of paying Welsh players- instead of the WRU paying RRW for player release and the regions basically underwriting the Union by paying players the Union have first dibs on the regions would be paying the Union for player release and the Union would have more control over the player base.

I just believe that if the priority is international rugby, it's the Unions responsibility to pay the players out of that pot. Also the regions are unstable and possibly doomed for failure. If it becomes necessary to set-up new teams, centrally contracted players can be moved to the new sides.

Notch, what is so GREAT about the Irish model, for the success of the provinces and the players developed, your International record IMO is quite poor. Where you get £4M from I don't know, we get £6M for many different things PA, Acadamies etc, how many would make up the Elite group, if it is the 30 to 35 Squads that WG names for AI and 6N that amount would be nowhere near enough, and then you want the rest of the money to pay the 120 other players, plus acadamies, coaches, support staff at these Regions, I doubt that amount would cover 2 of those teams. Do you actually know anything about ANY of the Directors at any of the Regions, I'll give you one example Sir Terry Matthews owner of Celtic Manor who brought the Ryder Cup to Newport and is a Multi BILLIONAIRE, his son is a Director of NGD, if the WRU sold their 50% stake at said Region for what they paid for it (NOTHING), they would invest in the team, which they will not at the moment, only in infrastructure.
What the Regions want is to be able to negotiate its own TV deals (they say they could get a MUCH BETTER DEAL than already negotiated) and get a decent amount of money for player release. Can I also say I never get in on other countries topics on these boards unless it directly affects Welsh Rugby or I want information which I'll ask for directly. I can see why you want to get involved in this topic as it will directly impact on Irish Rugby, I think the other Nations in the Rabo need to0 put pressure on the WRU because of the detrimental impact this WILL have on their interests.

Allty wrote:

Notch wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:Moffet's pitching in:

http://www.espn.co.uk/wales/rugby/story/209571.html

Thought Moffet would have been well advised to keep his head down, and say nothing. Maybe can't help himself.

As the man who got is so, so badly wrong in the first place it's quite bizarre how he's listened to.

___________________________________________


He screwed up big time when he was in office.

As you rightly point out he should keep out of things

Unfair and wrong to blame Moffett for our woes as the current set up wasn't his idea. His original proposal was the following which was rejected by the clubs;

"Moffett's plans would see four new provinces created along these lines:

1) Llanelli, Swansea and Neath would feed into a team playing at Stradey Park.
2) Cardiff, Bridgend and Pontypridd would support an Arms Park-based side.
3) Newport, Caerphilly and Ebbw Vale would combine into a team playing at Rodney Parade.
4) There would also be a north Wales province, probably based at Wrexham FC's Racecourse Ground, using players from clubs in south Wales."

and...

"At a meeting held between the WRU and the eight Premier League clubs on 5 December 2002, Terry Cobner, the WRU director of rugby, and David Moffett outlined plans for a provincial system similar to that used by the Irish Rugby Football Union. The only proposal offered to the clubs was for four provincial sides, all of which would be under the control of the Welsh Rugby Union with the existing clubs acting as feeder clubs providing their best players to the provinces. The proposal was rejected by the Premier League clubs, who had expected five 'superclubs' to be formed made up of partnerships between existing clubs."

Click for further info...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/celtic/2547339.stm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Introduction_of_regional_rugby_union_teams_in_Wales#cite_note-9

Steffan wrote:Id be more than happy for the current pro-clubs to enter the AP. As long as we called a spade a spade though and they entered as Cardiff RFC, Llanelli RFC and Newport RFC. I would even cheer them on now they are not pretending to be something they aint   . Not sure what would happen with the Opsreys. Possibly enter as Swansea RFC? They would have to be self-funded though like the rest of the AP teams. Possibly the WRU could make some contribution to keep the best Welsh players at them but that being said would they want to if they had 3-regions of they're own in Wales? That would be a good outcome though 3-4 Welsh clubs in the AP and 3-4 Regions in the Rabo

Absolutely agree Steff and if there is to be a "region" based at Sardis, I hope it's called Pontypridd.

I know that Dave what I'm trying to say is he had his chance and didn't stand up to the money men.

Its no good him complaining now because he has been part of this mess.

The WRU would never buy the regions out because they are scarred of the debt liability. It would be easier to bankrupt them and start over.

I really am expecting in 1 week from the now when the 31st of December dead line passes that the WRU will say the regions haven't signed, so they will create their own teams and put them into the Rabo.

A Cardiff team at the Millenium stadium would be easy to do, and they also have dibs on the north Wales Colwyn Bay stadium. Carnarthenshire council would be falling over themselves to sell the lease for their Parc Y Scarlets stadium in the event the Scarlets folded otherwise it would be an expensive white elephant.

Shifty wrote:The WRU would never buy the regions out because they are scarred of the debt liability.  It would be easier to bankrupt them and start over.  

I really am expecting in 1 week from the now when the 31st of December dead line passes that the WRU will say the regions haven't signed, so they will create their own teams and put them into the Rabo.  

A Cardiff team at the Millenium stadium would be easy to do, and they also have dibs on the north Wales Colwyn Bay stadium.  Carnarthenshire council would be falling over themselves to sell the lease for their Parc Y Scarlets stadium in the event the Scarlets folded otherwise it would be an expensive white elephant.  

Yup, all seems very likely now doesn't it. I think the liberty will still be available too - isn't it owned by Swansea Council? I don't think footy rules on sharing stadia apply if the team rents its ground. I could be wrong ...   

I'm expecting a "No agreement has been reached but we've organised a new meeting in the next few months". In reality it needs sorting. Now because of the TV deals, sponsorship, etc for the Pro12. I think the WRU would want them to sign up to their death warrant so that in 2020 they can get their new teams sorted, paid for out of he MS money.

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:Yup, all seems very likely now doesn't it. I think the liberty will still be available too - isn't it owned by Swansea Council? I don't think footy rules on sharing stadia apply if the team rents its ground. I could be wrong ...   

Swansea FC don't really want to share a ground with the Ospreys, and with the expansion of the Liberty there is no way it will be filled. Even as an Ospreys supporter I'd say the 14,870 stadium in Llanelli is plenty for West Wales. Especially if you have a team at the Millenium stadium. My thinking would be anyone with a SA post code, i.e. Neath Port Talbot Borough and westwards would be WEST, while anyone with a CF or NP post code would be East Wales (Bridgend borough eastwards).

Lets be honest it's nothing for anyone in Bridgend, Pontypridd, Newport, Pontypool, Ebbw Vale, Caerphilly, etc to jump on a train and get to Cardiff to support a team called East Wales at the Millenium stadium.

The idea of having East and West Wales (and North) teams is a bit too much common sense if you ask me

I just hope all the bitter Cardiff, Newport and Llanelli fans turn up and not protest because their superclubs have been disbanded

Whats the bets the Cardiff RFC lot turn up chanting 'KAAAIDIFF' just because thats where the East Wales team is based. Muppets

Shifty wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:Yup, all seems very likely now doesn't it. I think the liberty will still be available too - isn't it owned by Swansea Council? I don't think footy rules on sharing stadia apply if the team rents its ground. I could be wrong ...   

Swansea FC don't really want to share a ground with the Ospreys, and with the expansion of the Liberty there is no way it will be filled.  Even as an Ospreys supporter I'd say the 14,870 stadium in Llanelli is plenty for West Wales.  Especially if you have a team at the Millenium stadium.  My thinking would be anyone with a SA post code, i.e. Neath Port Talbot Borough and westwards would be WEST, while anyone with a CF or NP post code would be East Wales (Bridgend borough eastwards).

Lets be honest it's nothing for anyone in Bridgend, Pontypridd, Newport, Pontypool, Ebbw Vale, Caerphilly, etc to jump on a train and get to Cardiff to support a team called East Wales at the Millenium stadium.  

I like to think we can be more ambitious, 300k+ in Swansea, 130k+ in Carms, 130k+ in NPT - getting on for 600k and then there's Pembrokeshire with rail links. Surely we can get 20k+ fans in on a Saturday afternoon.

Cardiff Dave wrote:Like the Ospreys, sort of?

The coat of Arms for West Glamorgan has a Swan one side and a Osprey on the other.
West Glamorgan is the boroughs of Neath port Talbot and Swansea. At the Ospreys birth the merged clubs were Neath and Swansea so the Ospreys name is appropriate considering the Swans nickname was already taken by the football club.

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:I like to think we can be more ambitious, 300k+ in Swansea, 130k+ in Carms, 130k+ in NPT - getting on for 600k and then there's Pembrokeshire with rail links. Surely we can get 20k+ fans in on a Saturday afternoon.

I think you'd be lucky to fill Parc Y Scarlets mate. I reckon 12k max to be honest.
You might get 15k to 20k in East Wales though if they are successful.

A unified west Wales side would bring the true supporters in. Is the Liberty due to be expanded at all then. I think if it was marketed correctly they would get well over 20K

Steffan wrote:The idea of having East and West Wales (and North) teams is a bit too much common sense if you ask me

I just hope all the bitter Cardiff, Newport and Llanelli fans turn up and not protest because their superclubs have been disbanded

Whats the bets the Cardiff RFC lot turn up chanting 'KAAAIDIFF' just because thats where the East Wales team is based. Muppets

Do you think you'd still get your disenfranchised lot still claiming to not be represented, bleating about no rugby north of the M4 and coming up with silly solutions like base a "real region" in one place, operating on a third of the budget?

Risca Rev wrote:

Steffan wrote:The idea of having East and West Wales (and North) teams is a bit too much common sense if you ask me

I just hope all the bitter Cardiff, Newport and Llanelli fans turn up and not protest because their superclubs have been disbanded

Whats the bets the Cardiff RFC lot turn up chanting 'KAAAIDIFF' just because thats where the East Wales team is based. Muppets

Do you think you'd still get your disenfranchised lot still claiming to not be represented, bleating about no rugby north of the M4 and coming up with silly solutions like base a "real region" in one place, operating on a third of the budget?

Nah

Some Newport fans will protest that the team doesnt have 'Newport' in the name and thats about it

Minutes of the Joint Supporters Group meeting with the Welsh Rugby Union

Monday 16th December 2013

Millennium Stadium, 5pm

Attendees:
Jon Sheppard and Joe Crocker from FoNR
Annette Thomas and Mike Phippen from OSC
Dorian Davies, Barrie Jones and Neil Bathgate from CRYS 16
Sarah Hopkins, Catherine Smart and Sue Barter from CBSC
Roger Lewis, David Pickering, Warren Gatland and Steve Phillips from WRU

Minutes:

All present introduced themselves to each other.
RL Welcomed everyone to the Millennium Stadium, and thanked them all for coming.
RL said that he could not disclose any information that he would deem confidential and that the previous request for a meeting had been declined as the WRU felt it inappropriate as discussions were on-going at that time.

NB said that the group felt now was the time to discuss the situation with the Regions and the WRU as we are now six months further down the line since the original meeting request.

RL stated that it is rugby that comes first not vested "business". interests.

SH thanked the WRU representatives for the meeting us this evening and explained that she had been asked to lead the meeting from the supporters perspective, then read an introductory statement prepared by the supporters which would be followed by some key questions and read as follows:

Cardiff Blues Supporters’ Club CRYS 16 Friends of Newport Rugby Ospreys Supporters’ Club

The reason we requested a meeting earlier this year was because the crossroads we currently find ourselves at has been inevitable for some time and we wanted to air supporters views to the Union whilst there was still time for them to be considered but what’s happened has happened, and we need to move forward. and whilst late in the day, we are pleased to be able to represent the views of those who support regional, club and mini rugby week in week out in Wales.

We assume you have seen our joint statement as that is what prompted the meeting this evening so we don’t propose to read through that but needless to say – we are extremely concerned that the WRU is not acting in the best interests of the game as is often stated. We accept that Team Wales has been successful over recent years, but that is just one aspect of the game in Wales. We strongly feel that the time has come to make decisions that will protect the future of the game in our country or the current Welsh Rugby Union regime will forever be known as those that to all intents and purposes signed the death warrant of professional rugby in Wales.

We want to see a sustainable, professional Regional Structure, working with and developing players for Team Wales.. and retaining our best players within our regions.

We are investors in the game that invest more than money – we invest considerable time in supporting our teams and the fact that you have threatened to take them away from us if they ‘don’t play ball’ is completely unacceptable to us. This is our leisure time, our family time that you are impacting ….

She went on to say that we are mandated as a group to represent our members and a supporter group of 15,000 Season Ticket Holders and many more match day attendees.

RL said that he absolutely refuted the comments that (a) the WRU are not acting in the best interests of the game stating "throughout the whole history of rugby we have acted in its best interest.....it has been our mantra"." and (b) signed the death warrant of professional rugby in Wales.

RL said that he has not seen the statement which was referred to and SH explained that it was released to members and other supporters at the end of the previous week. RL asked if it has been sent directly to the WRU and she said that it had not, but that she had received a phone call from the WRU press team that day and had assumed that this was why the meeting with RL had been called,.; RL reconfirmed that he had not seen the statement.

RL asked whether the supporters groups had met with Regional Chairmen and Chief Executives. All confirmed that there is regular contact.

RL explained that the Regions have until 31/12/13 to "elect to continue or not" with the Participation Agreement. He stated that the Regions had signed in effect a 10 year contract in 2009 and that there was a break clause in at the end of 2013 (after the 1st 5 Years) solely for the option of the Regions and they alone could elect to continue with the PA from 1 July 2014 or not.
SP advised that the WRU’s business plan was, and always has been, based on the 10 year Participation Agreement signed in 2009 and changing the terms wasn’t an option.

In response to why the star players are leaving Wales, it was stated that the WRU had offered to sign the players that were coming out of contract whilst there was uncertainty regarding the European competitions that would be played in, then assign them back to the relevant Regions (with no conditions attached), but the Regions had refused this.
RL explained the make up and constitution of the WRU, referencing 320 member clubs and our 40,000 playing members etc, but SH confirmed that supporters were already aware of this. These 320 clubs who ultimately control all of Welsh rugby, and make up the WRU
RL said also that the Regions had not always sent representatives to WRU AGMs and other meetings with the Clubs.
The regions have had representation in the Rabo Direct League and on the ERC Committee for many years, up to Stuart Gallacher’s recent resignation last week and that they really still should have a representative there.
NB questioned whether if RL felt there was real value in them attending the WRU AGMs and meetings and if RL had directly communicated this to them and RL advised that he felt there was value in the Regions attending the meeting but he hadn’t directly communicated this to them as they are aware of the meetings and that they are able to attend. The WRU had written to the Regions and all Member clubs inviting them to the AGM, as they have done every year.
RL went on to say that the latest RRW statement (regarding, amongst others, the TV revenues) was, at a minimum, misleading. and contained confidential information which should not have been disclosed. He stated that it was not the WRU or himself that negotiated TV deals but Celtic League Ltd and ERC Ltd, of which the Regions had been party to There were further meetings later this week to discuss ERC payments but that the European rugby competitions. The existing agreements had been agreed to by the Regions, they have never previously raised the points set out in their statement at an ERC Board meeting and it wasn’t as simple as them just walking away .

In response to the information contained in the RRW statement, when asked further about the alleged unequal distribution of funds which was in favour of Scotland and Italy on a per team basis in Europe – RL confirmed that the funding received was not equal and that the WRU were aware of this issue and that the Regions had always accepted and agreed to them.
However, neither was it favourable to the English and French clubs in Europe as it applied to Wales on the same basis but it was very much in favour of Wales in the Rabo League.

SH asked RL to clarify what the Regions were being asked to participate in under the Participation Agreement and he stated that it was (as currently stood) an European competition which was supported by the five participating nations and the Rabo League, which he felt offered the financial stability that the regions were looking for. He said that further discussions were taking place on 20th December where they hoped that the English clubs would reconsider and rejoin the competition, making it the six nations again.
NB asked whether the WRU would consider extending the deadline for the PA until the regions knew exactly what the situation was in Europe and RL confirmed they were hopeful that this would be resolved next week but ultimately as there is a commitment from 5 unions to provide teams for the competition there wouldn’t be an option to extend the deadline for the PA until a more detailed make up of the teams competing is known.

As to WRU income, BJ asked why there was seemingly no prospect of income growing over the coming years with the PA being only index linked and it was stated that this was unknown. SP replied that the WRU income had grown significantly over the last six years which had allowed the player release monies in 2008 to be increased from £3.6m to £6.6m today; as to further similar growth, it was stated that this was unlikely at the present time.
AT referred to the TV deal that had been announced by the Aviva Premiership with BT Sport and stated that it would seem financially beneficial to join this league.

SH asked whether or not the WRU were supportive of the establishment of an Anglo Welsh league. WG answered saying that personally he honestly felt it would be good for him (although selfishly) in respect of players and exposure to a superior level of games however he is not sure what the "long term" effect would be in respect of the impact on others in the six countries in terms of a downward spiral. SP highlighted that this supposed participation had only come about because the English clubs had chosen to exclude themselves from Europe from next year
RL explained that he had proposed a British and Irish league last year to PRL alongside a deal with BT but this was rejected by PRL. SP said that the impact of the withdrawal of the English Clubs from the ERC had left them with six weekends a season to fill and therefore they suddenly want Welsh involvement.

JS asked why the WRU would not support the Regions in considering joining the Aviva, if the Regions believed it financially beneficial, particularly as the WRU are always pressing the Regions to generate more income for themselves. RL said that this was due to the difficulty in breaking existing contractual commitments agreed by all parties, including the Regions.

DD asked why the WRU had not taken up an offer to be part of the discussions around the establishment of an Anglo Welsh League and RL said he had not been asked to attend such a meeting
SH asked whether the WRU were therefore not supportive of an Anglo Welsh League to which RL stated that this was a point for the Regions to consider the serious implications of breaking the existing contracts.

NB asked if the Regions could negotiate themselves out of their current obligations with the Union’s assistance whether the Union would support a move towards an Anglo Welsh league and RL advised that it was too hypothetical a question to answer.

NB asked what the contingency plan was for the WRU if the Regions did not sign the PA as they needed professional teams to fulfil their contractual obligations to competitions, RL stated that there had been no public discussions about this, although SP acknowledged that they needed to have these discussions and consider their options in the New Year should the Regions not choose to sign.

DD asked about the reports of the WRU telling players not to sign new contracts with the Regions. WG said that this was a ‘complete and utter lie’ and that legal advice had been sought as this was defamatory. RL, DP and SP fully supported WG’s statement. WG went on to say that he had personally encouraged the six players linked to the additional £1m to sign for their Regions and that he was unhappy that some had chosen to go elsewhere. He stated that he understood that Adam Jones has not been offered a contract by the Ospreys.

WG said that he had been told by players that the reason they were looking elsewhere was not money driven but relating to the quality of some coaching and support staff at the Regions as well as facilities. He felt that the additional £1m could be spent on more quality coaches and not individual players.

NB stated in his opinion that even if the £1m came to fruition it would effectively be a drop in the ocean and have little effect on the player drain to France and England as they will continue to pull ahead leaving the Regions facing an even greater battle for survival,. RL said that there was a lot the Regions could do to help themselves to make themselves more competitive and made reference to some of the comments in the PWC report. SP added that the £1m could not be considered in isolation but only in the context of the existing £16m.

RL said that the Regions should use WG and his team more often for coaching advice.

RL said that whilst it was recognised that the Wales team, in return for the player release payment, were effectively using and then returning someone else’s assets – and whilst players were with the Welsh set up there were benefiting from enhancements to their skills, conditioning, mindset etc before being released back to their Regions.
SH asked why the WRU deemed it reasonable to consistently have a 4th Autumn International when it left the Regions with less than 7 days to prepare for crucial European games. RL said that this was for two reasons – firstly, WG’s vision that Wales needed to play the best teams in the world which was why Australia had been added this year, and secondly as a response to the Regions asking for more funding – this is partly what the WRU pay for.
SP said that the inequality in payments to the Regions for the Wales players was a result of the Regions rejecting an offer to distribute funds based on the number of players in the Wales squad; he added that it made far more sense to him if it was done on a pure player release basis. SP went on to point out that the WRU set aside some £6.6m for player release but he understood that less than £5.0m was spent on the current National Squad – this, of course, did not help with players leaving their Regions.

NB asked again about the retention of players in Wales, and the possibility of instigating 'Gatland's Law', WG said that it could be applied in future, but only with assurances that the players would be financially protected, and that they were not taken advantage of by the Regions, and that those already playing abroad were not penalised.

DP stated that he wants the Regions to sign the PA which will give stability and suggested that supporters put some pertinent questions to the Regions, about their management. RL said that the Regions were not taking financial responsibility and maximising their income via marketing, sales and joint sponsorship deals (with the exception of the recently announced Dominos pizza deal). SP said that his financial projections suggested that the Regions had to be pulling in regular gates of up to 12,000 each to make them sustainable.

WG said that Stuart Lancaster was ‘gutted’ that the English clubs had pulled out of the Heineken Cup due to the lack of quality of opposition for them.

NB asked that the WRU meet again with the supporters representatives and RL said he would be delighted to meet in the New Year.

SP asked the supporters’ representatives to please keep the discussions confidential and SH confirmed that as stated at the start of the meeting the supporters representatives have a responsibility to their members and the intention was to provide a full update post the meeting. She stated that a copy of the minutes would be send to the WRU in advance of general release to their members to ensure that nothing commercially sensitive or inaccurate was reported.

SH thanked the WRU for their time and urged them to continue to take the views of supporters on board as we have a lot to lose if a successful resolution isn’t found.

Meeting closed at 6:25pm

Already been posted a few days ago.

HammerofThunor wrote:Already been posted a few days ago.

Oh right sorry I havent been able to find it

There are that many threads that end up converging on the same issue that it's difficult to keep track. Certainly belongs in here I suppose.

Shifty wrote:The WRU would never buy the regions out because they are scarred of the debt liability.  It would be easier to bankrupt them and start over.  

I really am expecting in 1 week from the now when the 31st of December dead line passes that the WRU will say the regions haven't signed, so they will create their own teams and put them into the Rabo.  

A Cardiff team at the Millenium stadium would be easy to do, and they also have dibs on the north Wales Colwyn Bay stadium.  Carnarthenshire council would be falling over themselves to sell the lease for their Parc Y Scarlets stadium in the event the Scarlets folded otherwise it would be an expensive white elephant.  

So who would the players be? Because currently they've got binding contracts with the regions for x number of years. Will the WRU buy all players in Wales out of their contracts so they can join the new regions?

With the exception of Cardiff its hard to imagine how any of the pro-clubs would sustain themselves without WRU money. They would disband and the WRU could have those players

Griff wrote:So who would the players be? Because currently they've got binding contracts with the regions for x number of years. Will the WRU buy all players in Wales out of their contracts so they can join the new regions?

Of course not, they simply say the regions didnt sign the participation agreement by the 31st of December and say their creating their own teams. The Union would not have to pay the regions anything then, and with no competitions to play in the regions would be defunct.

I could see the horrible pieman trying to keep Cardiff afloat by joining the Aviva mind

Shifty wrote:

Griff wrote:So who would the players be? Because currently they've got binding contracts with the regions for x number of years. Will the WRU buy all players in Wales out of their contracts so they can join the new regions?

Of course not, they simply say the regions didnt sign the participation agreement by the 31st of December and say their creating their own teams.  The Union would not have to pay the regions anything then, and with no competitions to play in the regions would be defunct.

There really are some idiots on this board, they (Regions) will be playing in the AP and as you have been told MANY TIMES on the Os website, if the WRU try to stop this they will be taken to COURT. The WRU will have NO Regional players to put into the Rabo as they are contracted to other businesses, and can you please stop saying you are an Osprey supporter when you have already said you are not renewing next season and have also been named in the Quisling thread on said site.

Shifty wrote:

Griff wrote:So who would the players be? Because currently they've got binding contracts with the regions for x number of years. Will the WRU buy all players in Wales out of their contracts so they can join the new regions?

Of course not, they simply say the regions didnt sign the participation agreement by the 31st of December and say their creating their own teams.  The Union would not have to pay the regions anything then, and with no competitions to play in the regions would be defunct.

The regions would still have to honour players' contracts, so they'd stay with the regions. Remember the participation agreement is nothing to do with player contracts.

Griff wrote:The regions would still have to honour players' contracts, so they'd stay with the regions. Remember the participation agreement is nothing to do with player contracts.

No the regions would go bankrupt because theyd have no revenue.

If the WRU was deliberately bankrupting the regions the I'm sure under employment law they'd have to pay out some sort of compensation to the players who lose their jobs. Could turn nasty.

Griff wrote:If the WRU was deliberately bankrupting the regions the I'm sure under employment law they'd have to pay out some sort of compensation to the players who lose their jobs. Could turn nasty.

Your right they may have to take the players on which is what they want anyway.  Centrally contracted players.

The WRU could stick all the regional players in the Welsh Premiership until the new regions are setup possibly while paying them a fulltime wage

Griff wrote:If the WRU was deliberately bankrupting the regions the I'm sure under employment law they'd have to pay out some sort of compensation to the players who lose their jobs. Could turn nasty.

Why ? no new agreement no money.
Nothing illegal in that

If the Regions then went bust it is between the Regions and the players nothing to do with the WRU

But the money is the clubs money - it's their tv money. Can the union really withhold appearance money the clubs generate from the Rabo and HC tv coverage?

The union has to approve any TV deal. The money does have to go through them, unless it's a requirement for the approval. Assuming the WRU is forced by courts to allow the regions to join the Jeff AND the RFU allow it AND the courts force the WRU to approve TV rights the the Regions would get the money.

Oh and Merry Christmas all   

Thank you Hammer! Same to you!

Can anyone clear something up for me? On this thread some people have said that the regions can join the AP and that the WRU can't stop them and if it goes to court that the regions will win, others have said that there are a few reasons why they can't join the AP and that it will never happen. Which is true?