What the hell is going on in Wales?

First topic message reminder :

Hello knowledgeable Welsh friends. I've read some extraordinary things lately about the war between the regions and the union in Wales, but being an outsider, and not following this closely for years I'm not sure what's real and what's nonsense. Can someone please help clarify a few things for me?

1. I read that the WRU have a deal with the regions that they will each be given the same amount of money annually by the union for the next five years. This was interpreted by some as the union deciding to slowly let the regions go bust so they can set up new regions that they would own. Is this really the case?  It sounds completely crazy to me! Wouldn't this be a disaster in Welsh rugby and couldn't they try to buy the regions instead since they have more money now? Could this really be a plan?

2. The WRU is making a profit and with the millenium stadium paid off should have plenty of money to splash about in the future. (Or do they?) As they won't give more money to the regions this suggests that they want the regions to founder (see above).

3. Although the WRU pay millions to the regions annually they have little or no say in how they are run so are deeply frustrated with the regions. Also the regions can't stand the WRU even though they're keeping them afloat. Is this true and why?

4. The WRU offered central contracts to the players in the regions but the regions rejected this. Even though they would have a smaller wage bill if it went ahead. Why?
The regions have the lowest salary cap in Europe and keep losing their best players. But the regions won't let the WRU pay the internationals out of a central contract. As players have to be released anyway to play for Wales I don't see why the clubs wouldn't be delighted to do this. Are they afraid that they would lose them to too many training camps? I don't follow the logic of this. If the WRU paid the players then surely the regions would be able to keep more of their best players playing in Wales which surely would benefit them as they'd have stronger teams. Again I don't get why this is such a problem.

(Please don't include the possible move to the AP on this thread. It's being debated elsewhere.)

I think it means one of two things.

New regions
They could offer a new PA until the deadline for the 5 year one had expired (it was a 10 year deal that regions could opt out if).

The second one would be a bit weird.

I think it means the regions are about to be killed off.

"The decision of the existing Regional Organisations not to continue with the PA has now freed the WRU to present a new Participation Agreement focused on recognising and rewarding Regions which identify, develop and retain players capable of challenging for international honours with Wales. This is in the best interests of Welsh Rugby."

This quote is from that article. There is nothing here to suggest that new regions will be formed.

The WRU cannot afford to fund pro rugby itself so even if they try to establish new regions they would have to be privately funded which means they would have the same messy relationship in the future with different people to deal with. Really, what would be the point?

Steffan wrote:

doctornickolas wrote:Carefully worded to basically say "Frak you" we are starting new regions. I  love it. Bring it on. The superclubs are dead and we can now get on with implementing a proper regional system like Ireland. Wait for us at the bar boys we will be back.  It may take a season or two so that current contracts with the regions run out (unless they go bankrupt when the English dump them) but these new regions will be signing up all the Welsh squad you can bet your life on it.

Il drink to that sir   

Finally il get to watch professional domestic rugby again  

Steady on people.
If we've learnt anything over the last 10 or 15 years, it is to not trust anybody involved with the Welsh game and to question everything. The CCS fiasco taught me that with whistles and bells not to mention fudged regionalism. Also you never know, one or more of the current regions could break away from RRW at the drop of a hat and it wouldn't surprise me one bit if that happened. Who knows what is going on behind the various curtains.
On a sobering note too, the WRU recently said that the regions should be getting 12000 crowds;
"SP (Steve Phillips - WRU finance director) said that his financial projections suggested that the Regions had to be pulling in regular gates of up to 12,000 each to make them sustainable." That aint going to happen with new regions in the Rabo and i'd be amazed if they even got half that attendance. Domestic ticket price revenue (and allowing for freebies and offers) hasn't increased that much in 10 years or more. Compare that to team wales prices.
It's still all up in the air regardless of this so called deadline from what I can see and I reckon there will be many more months of rubbish to talk about on here.
Welsh rugby just keeps on giving you see!
When will it end?
Fecked if I know.

Reads to me that it's open to either new regions, or the existing regions. I think it's possible that some of the existing regions may be bought over.
Hopefully have a tad more detail after Thursday's meeting.

Or possibly they are telling some of the current regions we will fund you if you actually become real regions and work with us

Steffan wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:Are you originally from Penarth? Home of the legendary Robinson brothers and Xavier Rush?

And that Rhys Patchell ofcourse   

Just out of interest Dave if an East Wales (or something simular) did get brought in would you support or be against it?

Patch is from Llandough I believe which although is not far away, it still aint Penarth.
Given the choice, no I wouldn't support an East Wales thingummyjig as it means nowt to me.
I would however support Ponty as they have history that I (and others including the French) can relate too.
Imagine another Brive battle eh?

Steffan wrote:Or possibly they are telling some of the current regions we will fund you if you actually become real regions and work with us

Not in our make up Steff which is why it will never happen. Also, the WRU couldn't afford it anyway and certainly wouldn't want to take on the risks that the current "regions" do. What if, on a bog standard Rabo weekend for instance a gaggle of players got injured. They would require replacing wouldn't they?

I wonder if the WRU is encouraging the the players to leave to get employment, then they can create their own 2 regions and hoover up whats left of the regions players.

If 12,000 is the break even they'd get that easy with a single South Wales region at the Millenium stadium.

Shifty wrote:I wonder if the WRU is encouraging the the players to leave to get employment, then they can create their own 2 regions and hoover up whats left of the regions players.

If 12,000 is the break even they'd get that easy with a single South Wales region at the Millenium stadium.

  

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Shifty wrote:I wonder if the WRU is encouraging the the players to leave to get employment, then they can create their own 2 regions and hoover up whats left of the regions players.

If 12,000 is the break even they'd get that easy with a single South Wales region at the Millenium stadium.

,
  

Dave he is beyond belief, he has been told for days that the WRU HAS TO PROVIDE 4TEAMS to honour the Rabo contract on the Os website, he has been banned from said website, in the Fans meeting with the WRU you must have seen that Steve Phillips the Finance Director of the WRU said under funding already provided that the Regions need crowds of 12000 to be viable, in what 4 grounds in Wales can they get these crowds, when they wouldn't be able to use the Liberty, CAP or Stradey mark 2.

Are we to take it that if their is no agreement soon. Welsh rugby will die?

From what i heard listening to the scrum five tape. Welsh rugby will only survive if the players are centraly contracted to the WRU. How can that be?
If the WRU cannot afford to pay the players, what difference will it make if they are centraly contracted or not?

Surely Wales/Welsh rugby player/s will be playing top flight rugby after the end on january?

Or better still will we have a 6 nations this year, or will it go back to a five nations tournament?

majesticimperialman wrote:Are we to take it that if their is no agreement soon. Welsh rugby will die?

From what i heard listening to the scrum five tape. Welsh rugby will only survive if the players are centraly contracted to the WRU. How can that be?
If the WRU cannot afford to pay the players, what difference will it make if they are centraly contracted or not?

Surely Wales/Welsh rugby player/s will be playing top flight rugby after the end on january?

Or better still will we have a 6 nations this year, or will it go back to a five nations tournament?

No MAJ this is all for after June next year

wayne wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Shifty wrote:I wonder if the WRU is encouraging the the players to leave to get employment, then they can create their own 2 regions and hoover up whats left of the regions players.

If 12,000 is the break even they'd get that easy with a single South Wales region at the Millenium stadium.

,
  

Dave he is beyond belief, he has been told for days that the WRU HAS TO PROVIDE 4TEAMS to honour the Rabo contract on the Os website, he has been banned from said website, in the Fans meeting with the WRU you must have seen that Steve Phillips the Finance Director of the WRU said under funding already provided that the Regions need crowds of 12000 to be viable, in what 4 grounds in Wales can they get these crowds, when they wouldn't be able to use the Liberty, CAP or Stradey mark 2.

A Welsh fan getting it all wrong? Well there's a surprise.
What SP said is damning mind ewe. Can't wait till it goes to court. There are some fibbers at the WRU so lookout.

10 o'clock and all's well.

Cardiff Dave wrote:10 o'clock and all's well.

Why shouldnt it be?

Cardiff Dave wrote:
If we've learnt anything over the last 10 or 15 years, it is to not trust anybody involved with the Welsh game and to question everything.

Probably the most sensible thing said on this entire thread. I'm so frustrated with it I could shout and I'm not even Welsh, so god knows how you're feeling.

Notch wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:
If we've learnt anything over the last 10 or 15 years, it is to not trust anybody involved with the Welsh game and to question everything.

Probably the most sensible thing said on this entire thread. I'm so frustrated with it I could shout and I'm not even Welsh, so god knows how you're feeling.

Notch, I'm 66 years of age, I followed Wales in the 60s, I watched most of the golden era from the terraces, the first game I watched from the stand was the Classic of 73 with the TRY, I played the game at not a very high level, I coached at the same level and then I started supporting first Bridgend and then London Welsh, when I HAD to move back to Wales through injury I couldn't help in any way, then after Heart problems I was about to start supporting Celtic Warriors when they folded, I decided to support the Ospreys mainly because of support of the WRU, this was at the time of the move to the Liberty, but in all that TIME, we have had a RUGBY MAN, running Welsh Rugby apart from the last 5 or 6 years, LOOK AT WHAT Regional Rugby has achieved for the WRU in that time, as i said in another article a SONG AND DANCE MAN is ruining Welsh Rugby, he can be in charge of revenue, but he should NEVER BE IN CHARGE OF SPENDING IT.

wayne wrote:

Notch wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:
If we've learnt anything over the last 10 or 15 years, it is to not trust anybody involved with the Welsh game and to question everything.

Probably the most sensible thing said on this entire thread. I'm so frustrated with it I could shout and I'm not even Welsh, so god knows how you're feeling.

Notch, I'm 66 years of age, I followed Wales in the 60s, I watched most of the golden era from the terraces, the first game I watched from the stand was the Classic of 73 with the TRY, I played the game at not a very high level, I coached at the same level and then I started supporting first Bridgend and then London Welsh, when I HAD to move back to Wales through injury I couldn't help in any way, then after Heart problems I was about to start supporting Celtic Warriors when they folded, I decided to support the Ospreys mainly because of support of the WRU, this was at the time of the move to the Liberty, but in all that TIME, we have had a RUGBY MAN, running Welsh Rugby apart from the last 5 or 6 years, LOOK AT WHAT Regional Rugby has achieved for the WRU in that time, as i said in another article a SONG AND DANCE MAN is ruining Welsh Rugby, he can be in charge of revenue, but he should NEVER BE IN CHARGE OF SPENDING IT.      

Well here's the harsh truth from an outsider. Right now we're in business with the Welsh teams. We're trying to attract a new sponsor to the league. The WRU have been steadfast partners to the Irish teams on and off the pitch whereas all these threats to leave the league are hurting us, and everyone else. The regions have been a bit like a cancer in all of this. Dropping quality teams, few traveling fans and now this farce. It's making the Pro12 look stupid and it's threatening professional rugby in Ireland and Scotland and it's definitely costing everyone money- including the regions. The regions really are a pox on Irish Rugby right now- we couldn't wish for worse business partners.

Now, I do have my sympathies with the regions because I think the WRU have been unwilling to support the regional game and I think the much-maligned music man has inherited a compete mess. I think the WRU doesn't invest a big enough share back into pro rugby, but if they were they don't have teams to invest in. They set the regions up to be standalone businesses with private benefactors. The reason they need the WRU to bail them out is they aren't sustainable businesses.

It just can't go on. If they want to continue to exist they need to hand over the reins entirely to the WRU, but they want to retain control of their fate as private businesses- but take the money from the Union. That just doesn't add up, whatever way you split it. They want more money from the Union but they don't want regions run by the Union.

I hope the regions can be saved and the current management of RRW quietly moved aside with full WRU control. The WRU are the ones with the money, the regions want/need that money, the WRU deserves to get more control in exchange for that money.

The whole thing is shaping up to be a complete disaster. I wonder how you get anything done over there at all.

Well i'm very minging, but like most news years' eve's's what an anti climax. I was looking forward to a good old scrap in the courts and everything....
"However, it is understood a new agreement involving the unions and the current regions could still be established."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/25562387

Good luck Wodge, with your new regions. Can't wait to see how they're going to be setup. If they consist of semi pro players, you can expect the WRU to get quite a few claims, as players will not be able to make the step up. If he's going to try forcing say Toby Faletau to move to Valleys Region (TM), I doubt that's going to work either.

wayne wrote:Dave he is beyond belief, he has been told for days that the WRU HAS TO PROVIDE 4TEAMS to honour the Rabo contract on the Os website, he has been banned from said website, in the Fans meeting with the WRU you must have seen that Steve Phillips the Finance Director of the WRU said under funding already provided that the Regions need crowds of 12000 to be viable, in what 4 grounds in Wales can they get these crowds, when they wouldn't be able to use the Liberty, CAP or Stradey mark 2.

There is a difference between banned and asking a forum admin to delete your account. I also have no idea why you have chosen to mention this on 2 seperate threads on this forum. What relevance does the Ospreys forum have here?   

Notch wrote:

wayne wrote:

Notch wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:
If we've learnt anything over the last 10 or 15 years, it is to not trust anybody involved with the Welsh game and to question everything.

Probably the most sensible thing said on this entire thread. I'm so frustrated with it I could shout and I'm not even Welsh, so god knows how you're feeling.

Notch, I'm 66 years of age, I followed Wales in the 60s, I watched most of the golden era from the terraces, the first game I watched from the stand was the Classic of 73 with the TRY, I played the game at not a very high level, I coached at the same level and then I started supporting first Bridgend and then London Welsh, when I HAD to move back to Wales through injury I couldn't help in any way, then after Heart problems I was about to start supporting Celtic Warriors when they folded, I decided to support the Ospreys mainly because of support of the WRU, this was at the time of the move to the Liberty, but in all that TIME, we have had a RUGBY MAN, running Welsh Rugby apart from the last 5 or 6 years, LOOK AT WHAT Regional Rugby has achieved for the WRU in that time, as i said in another article a SONG AND DANCE MAN is ruining Welsh Rugby, he can be in charge of revenue, but he should NEVER BE IN CHARGE OF SPENDING IT.      

Well here's the harsh truth from an outsider. Right now we're in business with the Welsh teams. We're trying to attract a new sponsor to the league. The WRU have been steadfast partners to the Irish teams on and off the pitch whereas all these threats to leave the league are hurting us, and everyone else. The regions have been a bit like a cancer in all of this. Dropping quality teams, few traveling fans and now this farce. It's making the Pro12 look stupid and it's threatening professional rugby in Ireland and Scotland and it's definitely costing everyone money- including the regions. The regions really are a pox on Irish Rugby right now- we couldn't wish for worse business partners.

Now, I do have my sympathies with the regions because I think the WRU have been unwilling to support the regional game and I think the much-maligned music man has inherited a compete mess. I think the WRU doesn't invest a big enough share back into pro rugby, but if they were they don't have teams to invest in. They set the regions up to be standalone businesses with private benefactors. The reason they need the WRU to bail them out is they aren't sustainable businesses.

It just can't go on. If they want to continue to exist they need to hand over the reins entirely to the WRU, but they want to retain control of their fate as private businesses- but take the money from the Union. That just doesn't add up, whatever way you split it. They want more money from the Union but they don't want regions run by the Union.

I hope the regions can be saved and the current management of RRW quietly moved aside with full WRU control. The WRU are the ones with the money, the regions want/need that money, the WRU deserves to get more control in exchange for that money.

Notch, you talk about RRW not being good partners for Scots and Irish but consider this:

• The Welsh regions do not want to be in Rabo with you.
  
• The English and Welsh teams do not want to be in HC with you.
  
• The French clubs have to be frog marched to play with you.
  
• The Italians look likely to jump ship as you make them pay to play you.
  

Has it occurred to you that just maybe the Irish and Scots have not been such good partners?

The Regions DO want to be in the Pro12. They don't want to commit to it when THEY are the one's taking all the risks. If the money's don't pan out as hoped (nothing is sorted yet), it's them who will carry the can, not the WRU (who will happily just set up new teams). In Ireland and Scotland it's the union that will take the hit because it's the union that owns the teams.

wayne wrote:

Notch wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:
If we've learnt anything over the last 10 or 15 years, it is to not trust anybody involved with the Welsh game and to question everything.

Probably the most sensible thing said on this entire thread. I'm so frustrated with it I could shout and I'm not even Welsh, so god knows how you're feeling.

Notch, I'm 66 years of age, I followed Wales in the 60s, I watched most of the golden era from the terraces, the first game I watched from the stand was the Classic of 73 with the TRY, I played the game at not a very high level, I coached at the same level and then I started supporting first Bridgend and then London Welsh, when I HAD to move back to Wales through injury I couldn't help in any way, then after Heart problems I was about to start supporting Celtic Warriors when they folded, I decided to support the Ospreys mainly because of support of the WRU, this was at the time of the move to the Liberty, but in all that TIME, we have had a RUGBY MAN, running Welsh Rugby apart from the last 5 or 6 years, LOOK AT WHAT Regional Rugby has achieved for the WRU in that time, as i said in another article a SONG AND DANCE MAN is ruining Welsh Rugby, he can be in charge of revenue, but he should NEVER BE IN CHARGE OF SPENDING IT.      

Excellent point and well made.
Also, great stuff from Gareth Davies at half time today to back up what he said in April. Holland at his side said enough to be expected, but you could tell GD was more passionate and very angry with the WRU.
"Former Cardiff RFC chief executive Gareth Davies has condemned the ongoing row between the Welsh Rugby Union and Wales' four regions."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/22008993

That's a pretty old link you've posted there Dave, before Gareth Davies was involved with the Dragons.

Griff wrote:That's a pretty old link you've posted there Dave, before Gareth Davies was involved with the Dragons.

Only 6 months old and his views haven't changed.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Just over 5 Hours left until the WRU deadline, so I guess we will soon know what is to happen.

Alternatively, I doubt we'll be any the wiser today and the WRU are having a get together on Thursday.
I do reckon however we'll have a statement from RRW saying why they won't be signing the current PA and another from the WRU expressing their disappointment or something like that.

Told you so.
Same Poopie, different day.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Just over 5 Hours left until the WRU deadline, so I guess we will soon know what is to happen.

Alternatively, I doubt we'll be any the wiser today and the WRU are having a get together on Thursday.
I do reckon however we'll have a statement from RRW saying why they won't be signing the current PA and another from the WRU expressing their disappointment or something like that.

Told you so.
Same Poopie, different day.

And even though I watched the game I Sky+ed it just so I could watch roger pickup his ball and take it home. I was gutted when it was just business as always

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Just over 5 Hours left until the WRU deadline, so I guess we will soon know what is to happen.

Alternatively, I doubt we'll be any the wiser today and the WRU are having a get together on Thursday.
I do reckon however we'll have a statement from RRW saying why they won't be signing the current PA and another from the WRU expressing their disappointment or something like that.

Told you so.
Same Poopie, different day.

And even though I watched the game I Sky+ed it just so I could watch roger pickup his ball and take it home.  I was gutted when it was just business as always

Wonder if Roger was watching. The half time interviews with GD and Holland would have rattled his cage no doubt.

Cardiff Dave wrote:Wonder if Roger was watching. The half time interviews with GD and Holland would have rattled his cage no doubt.

Holland sounds like a fool, complaining about problems he's contributing too, but Davies made some good points.

I mean they are creating 99% of the uncertainty over the Pro12.

Could one of you please summarize what they said?

Intotouch wrote:Could one of you please summarize what they said?

Gareth Davies yur;
Dragons chief Gareth Davies questions WRU stance
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/25568950

I think they said sometimes we dont like the WRU and other times we love the WRU to bits.

Because we love the WRU at the moment we will give them another month to do what we want.

But at the end of the day we want to cuddle the WRU

Basically they wanted to stay in the Pro12 but they feel they can't commit to the competitions when they don't know how many home games they'll have (Italians), how much money they'll get (sponsorship) and the Euro stuff hasn't been sorted. And if they did sigh up they'd have no say in any of things. And they'll receive the same WRU funding in 2019 as they did in 2009, even though the WRU is making more and more money.

Just usual stuff. If you want the details read the RRW statement from yesterday. It sums it up pretty well

HammerofThunor wrote:Basically they wanted to stay in the Pro12 but they feel they can't commit to the competitions when they don't know how many home games they'll have (Italians), how much money they'll get (sponsorship) and the Euro stuff hasn't been sorted. And if they did sigh up they'd have no say in any of things. And they'll receive the same WRU funding in 2019 as they did in 2009, even though the WRU is making more and more money.

Just usual stuff. If you want the details read the RRW statement from yesterday. It sums it up pretty well

A good summary Hammer, and for anybody, especially the Irish there is a pretty good article in the Walesonline about negotiated revenues for primarily Welsh Regions, but also extras for the IRFU and the SRFU from participating in the RCC.

wayne wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Basically they wanted to stay in the Pro12 but they feel they can't commit to the competitions when they don't know how many home games they'll have (Italians), how much money they'll get (sponsorship) and the Euro stuff hasn't been sorted. And if they did sigh up they'd have no say in any of things. And they'll receive the same WRU funding in 2019 as they did in 2009, even though the WRU is making more and more money.

Just usual stuff. If you want the details read the RRW statement from yesterday. It sums it up pretty well

A good summary Hammer, and for anybody, especially the Irish there is a pretty good article in the Walesonline about negotiated revenues for primarily Welsh Regions, but also extras for the IRFU and the SRFU from participating in the RCC.

The extra's are what has been spouted by PRL from the start of all this, and RRW are acting as conduit for the same message now. I feel now as I did then. stuff em   

Thanks guys.

Here is the walesonline article:

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/wales-four-regions-admit-being-6460169

The whole lie about getting the same funding over 10 years is nonsense. When they started they were getting £3.6m from the WRU, that figure is now up to £6.6m and will rise to £7.6m over the contract excluding the extra £1m they were going to throw at players as a one off.

The main issue is getting sufficient numbers through the gate. The regions have spent £0 on marketing the game. Half the time you would never know there is a game on. That surely is the regions responsibility, to market their own product? What business creates a product and then just hopes someone will buy it.

I don't trust the regions one bit. They have actively looked to offload Welsh players and have no shame in saying they are better off buying in cheap non Welsh players instead. Well if that's what they think then why give them more money to do that.

The money the WRU pay is to ensure a number of things including Welsh player release. Well if half the Welsh squad is playing overseas surely that means that the money the regions get should also be reduced by half. Maybe the WRU should, and I think their statement infers this, pay an amount for each Welsh player not just a blanket amount. The Dragons supply 1 or 2 players and get £1.5m the same as say the Ospreys who supply 10 or more.

doctornickolas wrote:The whole lie about getting the same funding over 10 years is nonsense. When they started they were getting £3.6m from the WRU, that figure is now up to £6.6m and will rise to £7.6m over the contract excluding the extra £1m they were going to throw at players as a one off.

The main issue is getting sufficient numbers through the gate. The regions have spent £0 on marketing the game. Half the time you would never know there is a game on. That surely is the regions responsibility, to market their own product? What business creates a product and then just hopes someone will buy it.

Please provide details/evidence of this level of funding. According to the WRU financial statements the regions get £16.9m between them, so around £4.25  m each. Where do you get £7.6m each from? Provide a breakdown and a link to your source. Cheers.

Page 23 and top of page 24. This £16.9, as stated, is TV/competition money, player release £6m and £1m one of payment for this year between them to retain players:

http://www.wru.co.uk/downloads/ARA_Final1.pdf

Griff wrote:

doctornickolas wrote:The whole lie about getting the same funding over 10 years is nonsense. When they started they were getting £3.6m from the WRU, that figure is now up to £6.6m and will rise to £7.6m over the contract excluding the extra £1m they were going to throw at players as a one off.

The main issue is getting sufficient numbers through the gate. The regions have spent £0 on marketing the game. Half the time you would never know there is a game on. That surely is the regions responsibility, to market their own product? What business creates a product and then just hopes someone will buy it.

Please provide details/evidence of this level of funding. According to the WRU financial statements the regions get £16.9m between them, so around £4.25  m each. Where do you get £7.6m each from? Provide a breakdown and a link to your source. Cheers.

Page 23 and top of page 24. This £16.9, as stated, is TV/competition money, player release £6m and £1m one of payment for this year between them to retain players:

http://www.wru.co.uk/downloads/ARA_Final1.pdf

I didn't say £7.6m each. I am talking about the PA money or 'player release' money as you call it. Not including all the competition or TV money or the academy funding. Just saying its not right to say that the money for the PA agreement has not increased because it has. It has gone from £3.6m originally to last years £6m to this years £6.6m and will go to £7.6m.

Gotcha. But remember this is less than other nations get, yet the WRU asked for more time with the welsh players. Doesn't add up. They should pay the going rate or just have the players for the normal international window and not all the extra time which means the clubs have access to them even less.

I agree that it's not really fair that all regions get the same regardless of how many players they produce for Wales, and that's from a dragons fan. Not sure of the answer to that though - firstly, the participation agreement is long term so invariably you have fluctuations in the number of players each region produces over the term of the agreement. So, if they set a new participation agreement tomorrow for 5 years and cut the dragons out as they have produced relatively little, what happens if/when they get a load of players selected next year. Hardly fair. Secondly, payments for producing international players is very subjective. Essentially you're asking for payments based on who oho one man (Gatland) deems to be international standard. Who's to say that the dragons haven't produced more international standard players, but just that Gatland hasn't picked them? There's a number of players you could argue that the Dragons could/should have had capped, but they didn't fit into Gatlands plans. Hard to penalise a region just because 1 coach doesn't rate some of their players (although I admit that we've not produced anywhere near the amount the others have - not making excuses, just explaining why perhaps the participation agreement covers all 4 regions equally).

FYI

http://www.pontypoolrugby.co.uk/News/Article/32203

Exiledinborders wrote: you talk about RRW not being good partners for Scots and Irish but consider this:

• The Welsh regions do not want to be in Rabo with you.
  
• The English and Welsh teams do not want to be in HC with you.
  
• The French clubs have to be frog marched to play with you.
  
• The Italians look likely to jump ship as you make them pay to play you.
  

Has it occurred to you that just maybe the Irish and Scots have not been such good partners?

Has it occurred to you that just maybe fact that the Irish provinces keep beating everyone pi$$es them off, and (like the PRL) they want to take their ball and run off crying to their mammies.   

Apart from Embra, eh Jen ?   

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Exiledinborders wrote: you talk about RRW not being good partners for Scots and Irish but consider this:

• The Welsh regions do not want to be in Rabo with you.
  
• The English and Welsh teams do not want to be in HC with you.
  
• The French clubs have to be frog marched to play with you.
  
• The Italians look likely to jump ship as you make them pay to play you.
  

Has it occurred to you that just maybe the Irish and Scots have not been such good partners?

Has it occurred to you that just maybe fact that the Irish provinces keep beating everyone pi$$es them off, and (like the PRL) they want to take their ball and run off crying to their mammies.   

I agree, we've been very poor partners not letting the English beat us every now and again to keep their morale up.   

HammerofThunor wrote:FYI

http://www.pontypoolrugby.co.uk/News/Article/32203

A cracking piece. I highly recommend that folks read this. It is good anecdotal evidence of the lack of communication, business nous and co-operation that is blighting the game in Wales. As the author puts it

for me it is symbolic of the complete lack of consensus as to what the regions should offer to the Welsh game ... This however is a ten year long debate with an ever deteriorating situation. The situation is at breaking point and I have never seen anything like it before.

The author has clear grievances with his local region and the WRU - Honestly I think he has hit the nail on the head. It's a mess. A big one at that. Lack of planning and co-operation is at the heart of it and the current shambles is a natural consequence of bad organisation/business.

Thank you Hammer for that link.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Exiledinborders wrote: you talk about RRW not being good partners for Scots and Irish but consider this:

• The Welsh regions do not want to be in Rabo with you.
  
• The English and Welsh teams do not want to be in HC with you.
  
• The French clubs have to be frog marched to play with you.
  
• The Italians look likely to jump ship as you make them pay to play you.
  

Has it occurred to you that just maybe the Irish and Scots have not been such good partners?

Has it occurred to you that just maybe fact that the Irish provinces keep beating everyone pi$$es them off, and (like the PRL) they want to take their ball and run off crying to their mammies.   

No it had not occurred to me that these disputes were about who wins the tournaments. Whilst it is true that certain things about the way the HC was organised gave Irish provinces unfair advantages these disputes are about real business issues.

Of course if everybody else does go off with their ball it will be the Scots and Irish who will be the big losers. English and French can survive on their own. If the Welsh join AP they can survive. Can scots and Irish survive? I hope so but I doubt it, particularly the Scots.

In my original post I was not trying to make a joke. I was just pointing out that there must be something wrong with the status quo if the vast majority of professional teams want nothing to do with it.