Ulster 2013/2014

First topic message reminder :

One guy I think deserves high praise from these two Treviso games is Sean Doyle.
As you know I reported some doubt about his future and that he needed to put his hand - he has done so big time.

Few more games like that and he will be with us next year for sure.

I agree with a lot of the criticism here, but you can't have a go at squad players not performing when our stars don't perform either. He made a few good (albeit lucky) kicks for territory but pienaars pass was simply awful last night! Our backline could rarely have a go because we stuttered from pienaars pass nearly every time.

McKinney was poor, but he also got really bad ball quite a lot of the time.

this in turn meant that the centers had very little time on the ball and hence forced quick no look passes and fumbles.

I've found a lot that Pienaars performance seems to dip considerably when Anscombe names a weak side. Almost like He doesn't take it as seriously, or isn't focused.

I disagree aukster. With a better team that was a stone cold 5 pointer in spite of the conditions.

Geoff good shout on Stevenson. His lineout work was outstanding too. still think Diack was the pick though. That's the frustrating thing. I think they lost about 6/7 lienouts on the trot in the 2nd half and we still couldn't make them pay. Gilroy was poor but Allen had a shocker for me. In truth (and in terms of resting payne) I would give Allen another shot next week. As I say the courage is there but he needs to work on his technique in the tackle. Too often he got the man and then slipped off.

I think were the ref was poor was enforcing the gate and how players joined or came round/through the ruck. Also our attacking maul is an embarrassment. we get about 1 in 5/6 set with the other splintering because they know whats coming. We seem unable to anticipate that, and change the point of attack.

I would go with Geoffs team above except maybe rest Payne, move Girloy to 15 and give Allen a chance to redeem himself. he deserves that imo

McKinney did get some poor ball but he also got some very good attacking ball but we seemed to use Payne on the crash relentlessly.

The referee did not have a clue about offside.

The frustrating thing is Zebre continued to defend and we didn't.
If the ref is getting it wrong play on that - no mister nice guy.

Allen wing, Gilroy 15 is a good shout Stand and is the one viable option to rest Payne

On the plus side (and it is against the Italians) we have gone 240 minutes without conceding a try. That should be a record the next ulster team want to keep

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/25477354?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook

I like the guy   

rodders wrote:I thought it was a decent win given the conditions and context. Our breakdown work was poor but then the ref was too quick to blow the whistle on the attacking side and allow the defending team to infringe. McComish had a good game considering he's an openside but agree that McKinney was a weak link - Paddy Wallace forced too many passes too, but looked fit and quick on his feet which is good.

Overall I'm happy enough to win ugly in a scrappy game - 5 points would have been preferable but hey ho.... merry xmas all. SUFTUM.

Anscombe doesn't agree with you Rodders, just heard he is absolutely furious and will be reading the riot act on Monday

geoff999rugby wrote:If we rest Payne though Andrew plays and on that performance Leinster will destroy him.
No point going to Leinster with a strong team and playing a week 15
Maybe put him on the bench rather than Allen though so we can get Payne off as soon as possible in the 2nd half.

Well play Gilroy at 15 then. Or McIlwaine. We need to look after Payne- I'd rather he was fully fit to face Leinster in the playoffs than next week.

As suggested above Gilroy makes more sense

McIlwaine is an even worse idea than Andrew

geoff999rugby wrote:

rodders wrote:I thought it was a decent win given the conditions and context. Our breakdown work was poor but then the ref was too quick to blow the whistle on the attacking side and allow the defending team to infringe. McComish had a good game considering he's an openside but agree that McKinney was a weak link - Paddy Wallace forced too many passes too, but looked fit and quick on his feet which is good.

Overall I'm happy enough to win ugly in a scrappy game - 5 points would have been preferable but hey ho.... merry xmas all. SUFTUM.

Anscombe doesn't agree with you Rodders, just heard he is absolutely furious and will be reading the riot act on Monday

I expect he will Geoff, there's plenty for him to be unhappy as coach about but I just think its unrealistic (as a fan) to expect high quality performances every week. Coming off back to back Heino games into a rabo game against one of the bottom sides is a tough one to get up for, especially in those conditions. Maybe its the xmas spirit but I wouldn't be too critical, it was a poor performance but 4 points is an acceptable result (5 would have been preferable) - especially with Leinster loosing. A loss would have been a disaster but its job done and on to the next one.

Anscombe is just about never happy, which is a good sign for Ulster fans cause he clearly sees areas for us to improve on after every performance.  I'm tempted to side with rodders here though....it was probably weaker than a second string team for us, the backrow was particularly weak with McComish, Doyle and Diack.  Thats our 3rd choice 6 2nd or 3rd choice 7 and 3rd choice 8.  Really Pienaar and Payne the only first teamers there.  I'm happy with a win in that context.

The fact that it was largely 2nd/3rd string should mean that there is no issue in getting up for the game. They are essentially playing for potential HEC bench slots

Standulstermen wrote:I disagree aukster. With a better team that was a stone cold 5 pointer in spite of the conditions.

Please remind me of the last stone cold 5 pointer in those conditions?

Off the top of my head I can't aukster that's why I said 'in spite'. Let's not pretend this was a good zebre team. It's as bad as they have been this season that I have seen

Last weeks conditions away from home against what is (at least statistically) the better Italian team is comparable though

That's the thing about evidence and opinion - they don't often match up.

McComish is getting a hard time yet he was Ulster's top tackler with twice as many as Diack. There is no evidence to suggest Ulster were ever in with a chance of 5 points but because it's Zebre then there is an expectation they should be rolled over. The set piece was a lottery because of the conditions and without that base to build on it is hard for any team to gain the momentum to score four tries either through pressure or planned moves.

Their set piece (lineout) was anything but a lottery. It was a banker for us. I'm sure we have got 5 points in similar conditions I'm just not going to think about it at 10pm on a Saturday night. 

Im also on record before the game as worrying about underestimating zebre. That said its as bad as I have seen them. I thought they were dire

Standulstermen wrote:Their set piece (lineout) was anything but a lottery. It was a banker for us. I'm sure we have got 5 points in similar conditions I'm just not going to think about it at 10pm on a Saturday night. 

Im also on record before the game as worrying about underestimating zebre. That said its as bad as I have seen them. I thought they were dire

Losing a third of your own lineouts isn't a banker in my opinion, especially as most of those losses were when Herring was on the pitch. The wind meant that the Hookers couldn't throw long, and therefore there was next to no opportunity to set up back moves with quick ball off the top. Even passes of any length were being blown off course so there was little chance the ball would make it wide without a spill.

The conditions dictated a tight forward game and Zebre fronted up there pretty well, so I'm struggling to see how Ulster could have scored four tries.

Standulstermen wrote:The fact that it was largely 2nd/3rd string should mean that there is no issue in getting up for the game. They are essentially playing for potential HEC bench slots

Yea in theory yes stand but there's a difference between being individually up for the game and having the focus and motivation to produce a top team performance. Like Paddy Wallace and McKinney must have made a dozen unforced errors between them in the first half alone but I don't doubt either were up for it. Sometimes things don't click in games like this, adapting to the ref and conditions - having an eye on upcoming games, complacency maybe, a bit of rustiness in some players and unfamiliar combinations - good sides win when they have off days and things aren't going their way.

This wasn't a good performance but their were some mitigating factors - the changes, the conditions, the ref. We got 4 points so that'll do for me.

Anscombe reckons it was one of our worst ever performances since he has been here.

The reference to McCormish and tackles is a further reminder of way I don't trust statistics.
Sorry the guy is total ineffectually, a 6 who never breaks the gain line.

The fact is as I said we loss 5/6 key players and performances tail off badly.
That doesn't happen to Leinster and until we are where they are we will be behind them as a team.

Our front line players are the equal of theirs
Our youngsters coming through are at last as good
However the second string between those two is markedly inferior

McComish is for me the weakest player in the senior squad, even behind the academy players.  I would have him behind Diack, Wilson and Henderson as 4th choice 6, 5th choice if you include Ferris.

geoff999rugby wrote:
The fact is as I said we loss 5/6 key players and performances tail off badly.
That doesn't happen to Leinster and until we are where they are we will be behind them as a team.

Sorry Geoff I don't agree - Leinster lost the other night. I think we do have good depth in most positions, we were missing a lot more than 5/6 players against Zebre - Jackson, Bowe, Best, Ferris, Henry, Wilson, Williams, Cave, Marshall * 2, Trimble, Afoa, Herring, Touhy, Henderson, Fitzpatrick off the top of my head. The fact that we won is a sign of the depth we have, not the lack off it. Two seasons ago we'd have lost a game like that.

There's a bit of an overreaction here to one below par performance..... Ulster are not, I repeat, not in Crisis!   

geoff999rugby wrote:Anscombe reckons it was one of our worst ever performances since he has been here.

The reference to McCormish and tackles is a further reminder of way I don't trust statistics.
Sorry the guy is total ineffectually, a 6 who never breaks the gain line.

The fact is as I said we loss 5/6 key players and performances tail off badly.
That doesn't happen to Leinster and until we are where they are we will be behind them as a team.

Our front line players are the equal of theirs
Our youngsters coming through are at last as good
However the second string between those two is markedly inferior

Eh? The same thing happened to Leinster on Friday. When certain key players are lost, they suffer big time.

I would be keen to look at McComish's tackle to see how many stopped  the tackler and didn't require assistance or how many we're made at the gainline. He isn't a destructive tackler or a carrier (although I did remember one decent carry). That's what Diack has improved so much in Anscombe's time.

No crisis rodders but to me that's a point dropped. The only things would say is that at least we knew early enough it wasnt going to come. It's not like we got three trys and narrowly missed.i thought our lineout was fine until Annett went off. Bonus point was gone then though

If we get something from Leinster then that's fair enough.my worry is we will have guys playing 4 massive matches in a row

Standulstermen wrote:
No crisis rodders but to me that's a point dropped. The only things would say is that at least we knew early enough it wasnt going to come. It's not like we got three trys and narrowly missed.i thought our lineout was fine until Annett went off. Bonus point was gone then though

I agree it is but in those conditions, with a largely second/third string pack dropping a point isn't too bad a return. On paper its a poor result but matches aren't played on paper - I'm relieved we dug in and came away with 4 points when we could well have been turned over after that first half.

Rory Leinster played better on Friday than we did inspite of the results.

The fact is our performances fall off a cliff without certain players in a way far worse than Leinster

Annett may have thrown good darts but around the park was poor and nearly cost us a try.
Herring brings so much more

I would not bothered by the lost point in those conditions but the performance was poor.
Given the condition we should have kicked on big time in the 2nd half

True enough rodders. Still would have made more sense to go for this game, forget Leinster and then concentrate on 3 in a row in January. Easy to say on a forum though. 

Only thing is I'm not sure what's going on at Leinster. Madigan couldn't buy a start pre AIs and now the same for Gopperth when Madigan isn't playing that well. It will be interesting to see who starts against us but I would expect Heaslip, O'Brien, D'arcy, Ross, and the rest to be back for our visit

Hello Ulster fans. Anyone know where I could nab two tickets for the Ulster v Munster game on the 3rd of Jan in Raven Hill?

GunsGerms wrote:Hello Ulster fans. Anyone know where I could nab two tickets for the Ulster v Munster game on the 3rd of Jan in Raven Hill?

Sold out months ago. But The Zebre game last weekend had extra tickets released (which may be released for this fixture too - at least I'm living in hope!)

PM sent Guns

Standulstermen wrote:PM sent Guns

Cheers. Sent you a reply.

Henderson definitely fit for Munster - Henry and Williams looking highly probable too.

Will be interesting to see how they are re integrated into the team.

Not much time, and they can't all come off the bench. Maybe Henderson in the second row and Henry and Williams on the bench.

Williams and Henry can't come back quick enough. I can only excuse Wilson's pathetic effort today because maybe he had been told to save himself as the returnees aren't returning.

I've heard who the IQ prop is and I'm seriously underwhelmed. Judging by the Leinster performance Ulster need to push their NIQ limit to the max. if they are going to be competitive next season.

Who?

Is the IQ prop a LH or a TH? I don't have a clue whats happening but I mentioned Nathan White and barring injuries I would be quite happy with that. beyond that I don't know.

Someone on the other forum has supposedly heard rumour that a short term prop contract is being scouted but he has no idea why. Could be nonsense.

hey all I have returned and after that v Leinster id say just in time lol my abscence from the boards has been unavoidable due to health and work reasons but I am all healed and ready to argue I mean spiretely debate

Keesie_kee wrote:Who?

Sorry but I won't say, because I heard this from his agent. He didn't specifically say not to talk about it so that may mean:
1. He was telling the truth because it is a done deal
or
2. He was starting a rumour to create some hype round his player who is looking for a new contract

I don't want to be party to the second option, even though I'm 95% certain it was the first.

Paddy Wallace injured AGAIN...   

http://www.thescore.ie/robbie-diack-stephen-ferris-ulster-1243786-Dec2013/

Stephen Ferris contract is up tomorrow but an extension looks to be announced this week.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/inconsistent-ulster-have-no-excuse-for-travel-sickness-29876283.html

Gotta love the Southern meeja.

Anyway, seems like a number of the (literal) heavy hitters are back. Williams, Afoa, Henry and Muller. Hopefully Hendo will be on the bench. Going tomorrow and cant't wait.

Read that from ward. Some decent point in amongst a lot of horseshit. He just loves getting the boot in, implying we should be the top province when a week or two ago he did a probables v possibles (in Irish terms) and went Leinster or Munster with every close call. In fact nearly all the ulster representatives in his sides are injured so how he reconciles that I don't know. Man is an idiot

I will take a stab at

Court, Herring, Afoa, Muller, Tuohy, Diack, Henry, William, Pienaar, Jackson, Gilroy, Marshall, Cave, Trimble, Payne

Black, Annett, Fitz, Henderson, Wilson, Marshall, Allen, ??

Given Munster's absences, that should be nore than enough. Provided we don't capitulate again.

Don Alfonso wrote:http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/inconsistent-ulster-have-no-excuse-for-travel-sickness-29876283.html

Gotta love the Southern meeja.

Anyway,  seems like a number of the (literal) heavy hitters are back. Williams, Afoa, Henry and Muller. Hopefully Hendo will be on the bench. Going tomorrow and cant't wait.

I honestly think we have no excuses with the way we played. We know the intensity it takes to win big games, we've shown it before but the players put out a display they can't possibly be proud of. Leinster were weaker than us on paper but much more intense, focused and physical as a collective.

Whatever else Tony Ward says is neither here nor there but he's right about one thing; there can be no excuses for that.

Basically a lot of these guys can play much better- IF they have Rory Best or Johann Muller or Chris Henry in the trenches alongside them.

Leinster have had some poor displays this season when missing key players- a lot of last weeks response against us was in itself a backlash to a poor loss with a very similar team in Edinburgh- but when it comes to the big games no-one from 1-15 needs any motivation.

This was a big, big game for a number of players who want to be involved with Ireland and a big game in itself and no-one really showed up.

I agree about our performance - rudderless, embarrassing. And frustrating because we completely lacked the top two inches

But Leinster don't always show up for the big games - what happened the week after their astonishing win in Northampton? They were bullied into a loss, without so much as a losing bonus point, at home, by the same team. Yet it's Ulster who are inconsistent. News flash. This season, each of the provinces has been inconsistent. It's been quite pronounced.

Yep, got to agree with Don there. Notch is right in that if you take the three guys he mentioned out we are in trouble but the same can be said of any team missing its first 3 leaders .

Absolutely right in regards to Ireland selection though although it's difficult to be massively critical of the backs. What it underlined for me is that we do need a better backup to Henry a new TH and a new lock (with Afoa and Muller going)

Last resort of the desperate - and it was a fairly desperate performance by Ulster - however....
I think Leinster were much the better team. They took the ball into contact with much more aggression and intent, but the times when Ulster did establish a platform - the ref was very hard in his interpretation.

It's important we don't expect miracles just because these guys are back. Williams was not in great form before his injury.

I do wonder if our squad is simply too small. This seems to be the first time this season someone isn't being rushed back from injury.

Ulster XV and replacements to face Munster, RaboDirect PRO12, Ravenhill, Friday 2nd January (kick off 19:05);

(15-9): J Payne, A Trimble, D Cave, L Marshall, C Gilroy, P Jackson, R Pienaar; (1-8): T Court, R Herring, J Afoa, I Henderson, D Tuohy, R Diack (Captain), C Henry, R Wilson; (16-23): N Annett, C Black, D Fitzpatrick, L Stevenson, N Williams, S Doyle, P Marshall, M Allen.

First reaction- TERRIBLE news Muller suffered an injury in training this week. Big blow- hope he is there for Montpellier. Extra back row forward on the bench to cover for the fact Henry and Henderson are on their first games back.

Hanrahan isn't involved at all for Munster, not gutted about that.

Janine Walker is a photographer who I follow quite regularly - her work is fantastic. She has three kids (adopted as far as i know). Her family got selected for an ulster rugby tour and meet and greet.

This photo blog makes me very proud to be an Ulster fan.

Enjoy.

http://www.janinewalker.com/ulster-rugby-the-walkers/