Ulster 2013/2014

First topic message reminder :

One guy I think deserves high praise from these two Treviso games is Sean Doyle.
As you know I reported some doubt about his future and that he needed to put his hand - he has done so big time.

Few more games like that and he will be with us next year for sure.

Thats brilliant Clive. Rory Best is a bit of a legend, a real rugby man. Hard as nails on the pitch and a true gentleman off it.

The guy on uafc who usually knows his stuff posted he expects both Rory and Tommy to be involved next week

Standulstermen wrote:The guy on uafc who usually knows his stuff posted he expects both Rory and Tommy to be involved next week

Confirmed earlier that Best could be back for Montpellier, I just hope hes not being rushed back...something Geoff gets very annoyed about

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/25613961

Do indeed

I've heard Muller, Best and even Bowe in contention.

My money would be Muller ok to start, Best on the bench, save Tommy for 1 more week.

However overall the injury situation has picked up big time over the holiday period

I see the "Payne ordered to Leinster" rumours are doing the rounds again.

Don Alfonso wrote:I see the "Payne ordered to Leinster" rumours are doing the rounds again.

I hope I'm not proved wrong but I think its Leinster fans talking an awful lot of smack.  A Leinster fan I know on another board told me that someone he knows who knows Sean O'Brien told him that Leinster were very close to signing "O'Driscoll's replacement".  I think some Leinster fans are putting two and two together and coming up with 5.  As opposed to O'Driscoll's touted Ireland replacement (Payne) I think its just a 13 for Leinster to replace O'Driscoll as the chances of Payne going to Leinster 6 months into a 3 year contract with Ulster have got to be pretty remote.  Surely Leinster would have to buy him out of at least two years of his contract with Ulster plus compensation for Ulster??

Especially given that a lot of Leinster fans are hyping up Fitzgerald at 13.  Why would they go to all that bother for Payne instead of just bringing in a quality 13 or bring in another back and give Fitzgerald a run there.

Also worth noting that Leinster fans do this everytime a star player is coming through at Ulster.  Olding has been touted as going to Leinster (at least before the season long injury.) I also remember Ferris to Leinster supposedly being a done deal a few season back.  Some of them seem to think that every time a star player comes through at Ulster that they might be able to sign him.  It hasn't happened yet and I will be hugely surprised if Payne goes having just signed a 3 year contract with us in May.

I agree it's nonsense, most likely, but worth bearing in mind that Payne's contract is apparently 1 year provincial Ulster, 2 year central IRFU.

I remember someone on Munterfans saying Tommy Bowe had signed for Munster - FACT - as well.

Don Alfonso wrote:I agree it's nonsense,  most likely,  but worth bearing in mind that Payne's contract is apparently 1 year provincial Ulster,  2 year central IRFU.

I remember someone on Munterfans saying Tommy Bowe had signed for Munster - FACT - as well.

Luke Fitzgerald to Munster was actually confirmed by at least one Irish media outlet, then literally a few hours later it was announced that he had resigned for Leinster.

Don Alfonso wrote:I agree it's nonsense,  most likely,  but worth bearing in mind that Payne's contract is apparently 1 year provincial Ulster,  2 year central IRFU.

You are right re contract

Good news the talk of moving to Leinster is 100% nonsense.
No chance/nil/nada/not in a million years

Not going to happen.
The player himself would refused to go

Deccie Fitz signed on for another 2 years and the Ferris extension confirmed (although I didn't see how long it is for)

3 months I believe

As posted elsewhere for Dungannon 15th Feb v Shannon
then Ulster 28th Feb v Dragons

I see Fitzpatricks' contract is described as a

'has signed a new two-year Irish contract that will keep him at Ulster until at least the summer of 2016.'
That would explain the delay - he has got a Central Contract by the look of it

Likes like we have been turned down re a NIQ TH.

We expected that to be honest - at best I can see our props being projects.
Will be a challenge going forward

I am even more certain we will be signing a NIQ Lock and multi position backrower
and that Saffers are favourites

A possible name for Lock but cant reveal yet - good player

You tease!

Sorry  - loose talk costs lives you know   

Can say a guy who has played for Saffer at international level

No worries Geoff. So despite the posturing muller is off then? No possibility of a coaching job?

If Muller retires - I would be very surprised if he doesn't - he is off home to the farm

I think he is just dithering because

1 - Making that final decision when you have been at the very top is hard.
    He knows it is the right time but just needs to get his head round it
2 - I think he wants to make sure Ulster have an adequate replacement signed before he goes
    Putting the club first - he is that kind of guy

I think it is time and for the best of reasons hope he does - don't want to see him playing when he is a shadow of his former self

Had it confirmed Declan Fitzpatrick has got a central contract

Had a look at the lineup there for the Ravens game - I see Josh Atkinson is starting in the backrow. Thats good going less than a year from being in a schools cup final. Is he a prospect?

Not seen him yet but heard some positive words.

Also see Dow on the bench really excited about him

Andries Bekker  

That was my thought as well Clive but mainly because I can't think of anyone else.....

Well, here's my thinking. He was rumoured to be talking to an irish province last season but then went to Japan. Coincidence that we got allowed a one year extension for Muller? 'oops! sorry, Andries, can we postpone your signing for a year?' Andries goes and makes money in japan for a year...

Could also be Gerhard Mostert from Stade... I'd be pretty underwhelmed if it turned out to be him though! He got his first springbok cap in place of Johann though, so at least it's poetic that he'd replace him Ulster too

from what I have heard the Ravens were Poopie

Have to say it is a big cause for concern that some of our backup players are patently not good enough
McIlwaine, Cochrane, Andrew, McKinney, McCormish, MComb simply not at the races

Felt sorry for Stevenson who played his heart out

Going by reports rather than what I have actually seen

Geoff,
any word on any announcements soon? Theres plenty of chat on the other forum - but I never like to concern myself too much with what they say. I'd rather hear what you say.

Also, re above - surely its a failing of the club to let players go when they are the quality we require in backups. Players like D'arcy and Faloon for example.

There are players of that ability at Leinster and happy to be there despite rarely getting a sniff of first team action.

Thats where they are superior to us.

I agree with that we do seem to care less about the quality of our back up.

I suspect it is a consequence of having a handful of top price marquee signings - we have to cut the salary cloth, lower down, to accomodate.

Nothing much more to report.
We have been told a NIQ TH is not going to be approved (we expected that)
We will sign a TH though
I believe a Project LH is on the cards
Lock awaits the final chat with Johann
A IQ player who can play 10 seems likely - not Steenson

I'm desperate for Gilroy to be proved fit, or failing that Bowe to return. Allen isn't quite up to it at this level, handy Pro12 player though he is. He's no finisher- think if Gilroy had the chance he had on Friday it would have been the bonus point try.

If Ulster win on Saturday, we'll probably have Leicester or Saracens at Ravenhill. If we lose we are away probably to a big French team- Toulon, Toulouse, Clermont all possible... best case scenario if we lose is we're back to Welford Road again, thats the easiest game we could have if we don't win.

It's pretty stark. Our home record against English teams is as excellent as our away record against French teams is bad.

Won the last two games in France Notch against the Champions of that year and the team 2nd in the league at the time we played them - not bad

Gilroy has his faults too - IMO it was his fault the clash of heads and associated missed try.

I don't see why Ulster should be looking for an IQ 10. Olding is a real prospect there, Pienaar is capable and writing McKinney off is frankly ridiculous. He has just turned 23 and looks a better player to me than Steenson did at the same age. Fair play if Humphreys unearths another Herring who happens to play 10, but the usual suspects wouldn't be an improvement.

The biggest concern is tighthead where bringing in a journeyman IQ prop will be a massive drop off in quality however much Afoa's head may have already left Belfast.

geoff999rugby wrote:Won the last two games in France Notch against the Champions of that year and the team 2nd in the league at the time we played them - not bad

Aye, and whats it like before that... aye. We've done well on our last two jaunts to France. Still hard to disagree that a trip to France is still the hardest assignment we could be facing.

Notch wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:Won the last two games in France Notch against the Champions of that year and the team 2nd in the league at the time we played them - not bad

Aye, and whats it like before that... aye. We've done well on our last two jaunts to France. Still hard to disagree that a trip to France is still the hardest assignment we could be facing.

Yeah we absolutely don't want to be facing the likes of Toulon, Toulouse, Clermont...even some of the English teams on the road. If we have  to then so be it but it really becomes a different competition if we can beat the Tigers and top this pool - the French teams don't like to travel. Priority has to be the SF and then anything is possible so the easier the QF the better and the QF will be exponentially more difficult if we lose this weekend.

The Great Aukster wrote:

I don't see why Ulster should be looking for an IQ 10. Olding is a real prospect there, Pienaar is capable and writing McKinney off is frankly ridiculous. He has just turned 23 and looks a better player to me than Steenson did at the same age. Fair play if Humphreys unearths another Herring who happens to play 10, but the usual suspects wouldn't be an improvement.

Olding should not be considered a 10 - the last thing we should be doing is using him as a jack of all trades.
I really hope we only ever see him playing 12 and 13 (10 and 15 should only be at a last resort)
Too many versatile players suffer from being played all over the place

Pienaer is capable but also we lose so much when he is not 9 - again leave him at 9 where he is class

McKinney has not impressed and was poor again for the Ravens - not considered good enough.

Ulster will have a new IQ 10 next year who they believe will be a good enough back up to Jackson.
I suspect we are looking at the southern hemisphere and parents/grandparents

geoff999rugby wrote:Likes like we have been turned down re a NIQ TH.

We expected that to be honest - at best I can see our props being projects.
Will be a challenge going forward

I am even more certain we will be signing a NIQ Lock and multi position backrower
and that Saffers are favourites

A possible name for Lock but cant reveal yet - good player

Bekker + Louw would have been an awesome mix. Shame Fran turned down our interest.
At least we've now got Big Nick for two more years, injury & fitness permitting mind   

Baby Anscome's future beyond this years Super is still unknown..

geoff998rugby wrote:Olding should not be considered a 10 - the last thing we should be doing is using him as a jack of all trades.
I really hope we only ever see him playing 12 and 13 (10 and 15 should only be at a last resort)
Too many versatile players suffer from being played all over the place

If a player doesn't play different positions then how can he be classed as versatile?

Players who are genuinely versatile are usually master of some, so guys like Pienaar and Payne can successfully play other positions. The New Zealanders have a track record of moving backs around in different positions and indeed Dan Carter played 12 before settling at 10. Sometimes having experience of a different position makes the player better in the one he finally ends up.
Olding has shown he can play 10, 12 and 15 successfully, because he has a versatile enough skill set to play all three without any obvious areas where he is deficient. How is it better for him to sit on the bench than be gaining first team experience albeit at 10 or 15?

I think we will struggle to sign anyone of note with so much uncertainty over the Rabo and HEC. Can't see any NIE worth their salt coming to any of the Rabo teams just now.

Olding will not be sitting on any bench next year even if he plays only 12 and 13
He is way to good for that.

I am saying use him as a 10 and 15 as an emergency only.
The way to stunt his development would be to move him around all over the place - happened to Wallace.

Cave and Marshall will have their work cut out next year.
In reality injuries will, almost certaintly, mean there is not a selection issue.

If Olding plays less than 20 games at 12 and 13 next year I'll be very surprised

With the French deal basically further empowering them to Hoover up talent maybe this B&I cup malarkey the RFU are on about has merit. Something needs to curb the disparity in funding. Perhaps we just have to go the 'no overseas in national team' route.

In terms of ulster I will wait to see what Humph pulls off. In truth I had expected an announcement by now. As you mention Rodgers the uncertainty is maybe to blame. Hasn't stopped the dragons mind you!

Olding to 13 hopefully but Marshall needs to make himself undroppable at 12

Standulstermen wrote:Perhaps we just have to go the 'no overseas in national team' route.

That absolutely is the only card we (the IRFU) can play - The ABs have been in this position for a while but obviously have a much better conveyer belt of talent. Players are going to leave for France no doubt, all we can do is mitigate that by having strong academies and using the carrot of international rugby to keep as many key ones as possible.

rodders wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:Perhaps we just have to go the 'no overseas in national team' route.

That absolutely is the only card we (the IRFU) can play - The ABs have been in this position for a while but obviously have a much better conveyer belt of talent. Players are going to leave for France no doubt, all we can do is mitigate that by having strong academies and using the carrot of international rugby to keep as many key ones as possible.  

We're more likely to end up like the Aussies than the ABs if we went down the same route though

marty2086 wrote:

rodders wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:Perhaps we just have to go the 'no overseas in national team' route.

That absolutely is the only card we (the IRFU) can play - The ABs have been in this position for a while but obviously have a much better conveyer belt of talent. Players are going to leave for France no doubt, all we can do is mitigate that by having strong academies and using the carrot of international rugby to keep as many key ones as possible.  

We're more likely to end up like the Aussies than the ABs if we went down the same route though

The Ozzies are better than us!

rodders wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

rodders wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:Perhaps we just have to go the 'no overseas in national team' route.

That absolutely is the only card we (the IRFU) can play - The ABs have been in this position for a while but obviously have a much better conveyer belt of talent. Players are going to leave for France no doubt, all we can do is mitigate that by having strong academies and using the carrot of international rugby to keep as many key ones as possible.  

We're more likely to end up like the Aussies than the ABs if we went down the same route though

The Ozzies are better than us!

I forgot about that part  

geoff998rugby wrote:I am saying use him as a 10 and 15 as an emergency only.
The way to stunt his development would be to move him around all over the place - happened to Wallace.

Paddy Wallace is an interesting example because he was a 10 who didn't play there because of Humphreys and occasionally Larkin. His skillset suited 10 because in those days his defence was weak and he was poor under the high ball, so for either 12 or 15 - he didn't have the skillset to suit being moved.
Olding OTOH has a good defence and looks fine under the high ball, so playing him at either 10, 12 or 15 shouldn't erode any self-confidence but rather boost it by the coaches showing faith in him. Rather than drop him into the deep end due to an emergency at outhalf when he hasn't built any rapport with his 9, I would argue that it would be better for him to be the planned back-up gaining short stints of experience over a period of time.

Maybe Humphreys will unearth an IQ 'Gopperth-type' player, and if so great, because flyhalf is the one position where there is inadequate back-up behind Jackson. Maybe the IRFU will allow a "project" 10 which would increase the field considerably, but failing either circumstance, I really can't see the harm in planning to play Olding in his natural position from time to time.

rodders wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:Perhaps we just have to go the 'no overseas in national team' route.

That absolutely is the only card we (the IRFU) can play - The ABs have been in this position for a while but obviously have a much better conveyer belt of talent. Players are going to leave for France no doubt, all we can do is mitigate that by having strong academies and using the carrot of international rugby to keep as many key ones as possible.  

A player may think twice about moving overseas, but paradoxically the overseas clubs may see no Test call-ups as a benefit and so offer more money. Ireland don't have the depth to ignore their very top players irrespective of where they play.

We may not aukster but If we end up haemorrhaging players like the welsh then the provincial game will be in serious danger. I think we have to take a hard line so that players do think twice. In NZ it tends to be internationals of a certain age that look overseas whilst the younger lads stay for their best years. I could live with that scenario as it might help us bring in younger guys

Aukster I think Oldings natural position is most definitely 12. He has a sensational running game, a killer step and that rare ability to find space in the most congested areas of the pitch. When you factor in his creativity and distribution skills its a complete no-brainer.

We want someone else to cover 10 because if Olding carries on like he was before his injury he'll be in full international squads along with Jackson and the international management will be insisting he gets game time at 12, because he's in the running to play in that position for Ireland. So he won't be much use as cover then.

Frankly when you have a special talent like Olding I want him to be used as much as possible in his best position because it won't be too long before he is on a central contract and his game time is managed. When that happens having him cover 10 will make about as much sense as having Ferris cover second row. Yes, he could do a very good job there- but why are we moving around a once in a generation player from where he is most effective?

If Olding is going to nail down a position it will be 13 or 15 I think - Marshalls size makes him better suited to play inside centre. Jackson has the 10 spot nailed too.

Agree with Aukster that he's best covering a number of positions for the next season or so until he settles on a position. I believe it will be in the outside channels though.

Marshall is bigger but still makes less yards with the ball than Olding. If anything, Marshall is more likely to move outside.