1872 Cup Thread 2014: Glasgow vs Edinburgh

[George Carlin]

First topic message reminder :


 
It's that time again. The oldest club fixture in world rugby.
Glasgow looking for an unprecedented fifth successive win.
Bring it.
 

 
It's the the social club versus the golf club, the unwashed versus the exfoliators, the heroin users versus the social drinkers, the chips & cheese versus the salt & sauce, the ramraiders versus the online bank hackers, the knock-off Rolecks versus the original Pateks and the cardiac arrest versus the stress-related work sign-off for a fortnight.
 
A. The Fixtures
 
Round 1
Thursday 26 December 2013, 15:05
Edinburgh Rugby v Glasgow Warriors
Murrayfield Library
 
Referee: Neil Paterson (SRU, 57th competition game)
Assistant Referees: David Changleng, Bob Nevins (both SRU)
Citing Commissioner: John Cole (SRU)
TMO: Jim Yuille (SRU)
 
LIVE on BBC ALBA
 
Round 2
Saturday 26 April 2014, 19:05
Glasgow Warriors v Edinburgh Rugby
Scotstoun Stadium
 
Referee: Mathieu Raynal (FFR, 2nd competition game)
Assistant Referees: Neil Paterson, Graeme Marshall (both SRU)
Citing Commissioner: Douglas Hunter (SRU)
TMO: Jim Yuille (SRU)
 
LIVE on BBC ALBA
 
B. Form - head to head
 
20 Played 20
11 Wins 8
8 Losses 11
1 Draws 1
37 Tries 34
22 Conversions 22
53 Penalties 55
11 Drop Goals 5
421 Points 394
26 Avg. Age 26
 
C. Form - last year & this
 
Friday 21 December 2012, 19:35
Glasgow Warriors 23 - 14 Edinburgh Rugby
Scotstoun
 
Saturday 29 December 2012, 16:05
Edinburgh Rugby 17 - 21 Glasgow Warriors
Murrayfield
 
Thursday 26 December 2013, 15:05
Edinburgh Rugby 16 - 20 Glasgow Warriors
Murrayfield

D. Teams
 
Round 1:
 
(i) Edinburgh

15 Jack Cuthbert
14 Dougie Fife
13 Nick De Luca
12 Ben Atiga
11 Tom Brown
10 Greig Tonks
09 Greig Laidlaw (c)
 
01 Wicus Blaauw
02 Ross Ford
03 Willem Nel
04 Grant Gilchrist
05 Ollie Atkins
06 Cornell Du Preez
07 Roddy Grant
08 David Denton
 
16 Aleki Lutui
17 Alex Allan
18 Geoff Cross
19 Izak van der Westhuizen
20 Mike Coman
21 Grayson Hart
22 Tony Fenner
23 Sam Beard
 
(ii) Glasgow

15. Sean Maitland
14. Tommy Seymour
13. Stuart Hogg
12. Alex Dunbar
11. DTH van der Merwe
10. Duncan Weir
09. Chris Cusiter (c)
 
01. Ryan Grant
02. Pat MacArthur
03. Jon Welsh
04. Tim Swinson
05. Tom Ryder
06. Rob Harley
07. Tyrone Holmes
08. Ryan Wilson
 
16. Dougie Hall
17. Gordon Reid
18. Moray Low
19. Leone Nakarawa
20. Josh Strauss
21. Chris Fusaro
22. Henry Pyrgos
23. Ruaridh Jackson
 
Round 2
 
(i) Glasgow
 
15. Peter Murchie
14. Sean Maitland
13. Mark Bennett
12. Finn Russell
11. Tommy Seymour
10. Ruaridh Jackson
09. Chris Cusiter

01. Ryan Grant
02. Dougie Hall
03. Jon Welsh
04. Jonny Gray
05. Al Kellock (Captain)
06. Rob Harley
07. Chris Fusaro
08. Josh Strauss

16. Pat MacArthur
17. Jerry Yanuyanutawa
18. Moray Low
19. Leone Nakarawa
20. Ryan Wilson
21. Niko Matawalu
22. Duncan Weir
23. Richie Vernon
 
(ii) Edinburgh

15 Cuthbert
14 Brown
13 Scott
12 Strauss
11 Visser
10 Bezuidenhout
09 Laidlaw (c)

08 Denton
07 Du Preez
06 Coman
05 van der Westhuizen
04 Gilchrist
03 Nel
02 Ford
01 Dickinson

16 Hilterbrand
17 Blaauw
18 Berghan
19 Toolis
20 Leonardi
21 Hart
22 Francis
23 Beard

[VinceWLB]

Decent game, more enjoyable than the hec semi   
Glasgow didn't play as well as the last couple of game but that was a very solid performance, worrying defence at times though, has the defence coach be away the whole week?

van der Westhuizen isn't going to be a big loss for Edinburgh he was totally anonymous except for the yellow card and never seems to last 80 minutes as he always picks up injuries. Denton did a better job than him when he went to the row.
Matt Scott wasn't far from motm imo and Visser looked good even if he only scored one try, Leonardi actually scored the other!

[BigGee]

As many of us suspected, Edinburgh are a far better side than their results this year have shown and they showed the good results were no flukes. If they could only fire themselves up like this every week, not give away silly penalties and get guys off the pitch. They have a big physical pack and showed today that they have a wide game as well. Still a very narrow squad though. Solomans was not keen to make any substitutions again unless forced by injury. He so needs to have a squad that he trust, can rotate and provide impact from the bench.

They played well today but may well have emptied themselves for the rest of the season now. If they could finish the season well they would have so much more to build on next year

Laidlaw has benefitted from his little sabbatical and looks something like his old self. He will go on the tour, but Cus remains our best no.9 at the moment by some way

[A Simply Mesmeric Try]

Hang on a sec. Who scored Edinburgh's third try? Leonardi or Visser? Apparently Visser.

I watched it too...  

[BigGee]

Form Scotland backline after tonight?

9 Cusiter
10 Russell (better goal kicker)
11 Visser
12 Scott
13 Bennett
14 Maitland
15 Murchie

Bennett to definitely get capped over the summer, it is going to be a long summer for him if he is going to play in the CG sevens as well. I wonder if he will be released to play in the Glasgow leg next week. Might depend on whether Dunbar is likely to be back or not

I guess we have to wait and see how Duncy and Hoggy do when they get back on the pitch, I think we will see both play next week. Both of them need to be in no doubt that if they don't play well they won't be in the playoff team though! I expect them both to rise to the occasion though, Hogg in particular who has a lot to prove this year.

It would be a bit of a risk taking Russell on tour as he has been playing continuously for a year now but yet he is showing no signs of burnout. Maybe the north American leg of the tour would be the ideal place to blood him, Bennett as well, who could then come home for a short break before the sevens

[VinceWLB]

Hang on a sec. Who scored Edinburgh's third try? Leonardi or Visser? Apparently Visser.

I watched it too...  

It was Leonardi as TMO and touch judge said no double movement, you may award the try. I think Visser was just short.

[A Simply Mesmeric Try]

Hang on a sec. Who scored Edinburgh's third try? Leonardi or Visser? Apparently Visser.

I watched it too...  

It was Leonardi as TMO and touch judge said no double movement, you may award the try. I think Visser was just short.

That's what i thought and the BBC has is correctly too, but Pro12 highlights have it wrong.

[VinceWLB]

They just changed the title of the video as we type!   

[A Simply Mesmeric Try]

They just changed the title of the video as we type!   

Yeah, I pinged them a message, I figured they'd still be online if they're uploading all those wee clips.

[A Simply Mesmeric Try]

They just changed the title of the video as we type!   

Yeah, I pinged them a message, I figured they'd still be online if they're uploading all those wee clips.

Haha, I was not the only one who pinged them a message, got a reply from the Pro12YouTubeMaster

"Thanks for your help, correction came in from dressing room ! "

    

Leonadi can't have been to happy about that

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

Reckon Russell should go on the summer tour? He's on great form just now but can't help but think he could benefit from a proper pre season to get his conditioning up to standard.

Outrageous chatter, RDW, I shall be reporting you directly to fES - I think you'll find that young Master russell has not served the appropriate apprenticeship of 3,769,275 hours of prem 1 plus Rabo rugby to qualify for Scotland

All round, well played on this thread lads, a highly entertaining read

[VinceWLB]

They just changed the title of the video as we type!   

Yeah, I pinged them a message, I figured they'd still be online if they're uploading all those wee clips.

Haha, I was not the only one who pinged them a message, got a reply from the Pro12YouTubeMaster

"Thanks for your help, correction came in from dressing room ! "

    

Leonadi can't have been to happy about that

Well that was a strange situation, not helped by the French referee having to communicate with his touch judge to understand the TMO   

Glad they corrected it in the end even though the speaker stole the moment away from Leonardi   

[A Simply Mesmeric Try]

They changed the titled of Visser's try from "Visser's 2nd" to "Tim Visser scores for sure!"

 

[funnyExiledScot]

Great game, really enjoyed that. Good advert for Scottish rugby.

From a Glasgow perspective I thought Welsh, Gray, Harley and Strauss were all superb in the forwards, and Jackson, Bennett, Seymour and Murchie particularly good in the backs.

From Edinburgh Nel was good in the loose but not the scrum, and Laidlaw, Scott and Cuthbert played well in the backs. Laidlaw has clearly been practising kicking since the 6 Nations. Strauss is mince, and very slow.

Russell looked a lost wee boy out there. Agree with RDW, he needs some time in the gym plus a few kicking lessons. Still, some nice touches here and there. One for the future I'm sure, and Bennett seems to have now reached a position to challenge for the Scotland 13 jersey, only 3 years after some fans wanted him picked. Just goes to show the benefits of being patient and allowing talent to develop properly in professional rugby.....

Well played Glasgow, and pleased we gave you a better run for your buckfast this season!

[VinceWLB]

They changed the titled of Visser's try from "Visser's 2nd" to "Tim Visser scores for sure!"

 

Haha they are doing a great job with these videos thats for sure hope next season whatever the sponsor is will be of similar standard.

 

[GLove39]

Can't see Sky being happy with every try etc going on YouTube where it can be viewed for free. They'll probably hide that stuff behind a paywall

[IanBru]

The PRO12 table after tonight:


The long and the short for Glasgow:
- If Munster fail to get a winning bonus point in either of their remaining games, Glasgow need two wins.
- If Munster get winning bonus points in both of their remaining games, Glasgow need two wins with one try bonus point.
- If Leinster lose either of their remaining games (without a LBP), then two bonus point wins for Glasgow would guarantee a home semi and (hopefully) a home final.

[123456789]

Great game, really enjoyed that. Good advert for Scottish rugby.

From a Glasgow perspective I thought Welsh, Gray, Harley and Strauss were all superb in the forwards, and Jackson, Bennett, Seymour and Murchie particularly good in the backs.

From Edinburgh Nel was good in the loose but not the scrum, and Laidlaw, Scott and Cuthbert played well in the backs. Laidlaw has clearly been practising kicking since the 6 Nations. Strauss is mince, and very slow.

Russell looked a lost wee boy out there. Agree with RDW, he needs some time in the gym plus a few kicking lessons. Still, some nice touches here and there. One for the future I'm sure, and Bennett seems to have now reached a position to challenge for the Scotland 13 jersey, only 3 years after some fans wanted him picked. Just goes to show the benefits of being patient and allowing talent to develop properly in professional rugby.....

Well played Glasgow, and pleased we gave you a better run for your buckfast this season!

First and foremost do not mistake this for a demand for Russell to be parachuted in as Scotland's first choice fly-half but we have to remember he was a fly-half playing inside-centre which is an infinitely more physical position, and one of his opponents at centre and for a short while his direct opponent was Edinburgh's, and potentially Scotland's , best player by some distance and one of the best inside centres in Britain if not the best. I would agree that he needs some time to improve physically but I think that he was outplayed tonight is more testament to Matt Scott, a specialist centre, than to him being poor. Let's not forget he played centre admirably against Munster just two weeks ago, and everyone is allowed a bad game. In my opinion he should be taken on the tour and told from the start that he would play against Canada and the USA, and at least be part of the squad for Argentina with a view to him taking full part in pre-season and no part in the South Africa game, the last thing we need is him playing in a weakened Scotland side in South Africa against South Africa.

[IanBru]

First and foremost do not mistake this for a demand for Russell to be parachuted in as Scotland's first choice fly-half

What are you talking about Numbers?? I'm all for tattooing a really big '10' on his back, then just giving him a back-less shirt for his career.

I know that 'Rhona and Shona's Tattoo Emporium' on Bath Street (basement level...) would do him a good deal.

[123456789]

First and foremost do not mistake this for a demand for Russell to be parachuted in as Scotland's first choice fly-half

What are you talking about Numbers?? I'm all for tattooing a really big '10' on his back, then just giving him a back-less shirt for his career.

I know that 'Rhona and Shona's Tattoo Emporium' on Bath Street (basement level...) would do him a good deal.

I don't think that will go down well with FES' "Dan Parks and Gordon Ross for Scotland society" at all

[123456789]

Also Ben Atiga seemed to be operating almost in a coaching role, am I completely mistaken here or is there some truth in this?

[21st Century Schizoid Man]

Last try for the Luvvies was from an outrageous forward pass.   Frodo kicked quite well for the MFLs.  Scott ok.  Du Preez schieze.  Denton sub-schieze.  Gilchiist ok.  Gray superb again - best lock in the Rabo now.  MFLs dirty, cheating fuds as usual hence yellows and could have been more tbh.  Did not deserve anything from that game.   Their travelling support were, as always, feckin pitiful.    Jacko was MoM for me .  

5 points      

[123456789]

Last try for the Luvvies was from an outrageous forward pass.   Frodo kicked quite well for the MFLs.  Scott ok.  Du Preez schieze.  Denton sub-schieze.  Gilchiist ok.  Gray superb again - best lock in the Rabo now.  MFLs dirty, cheating fuds as usual hence yellows and could have been more tbh.  Did not deserve anything from that game.   Their travelling support were, as always, feckin pitiful.    Jacko was MoM for me .  

5 points      

In the future don't hold back, just say what you really think   

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

[Guest]

Actually he's right about the forward pass. I'm also with him that Scott was ok but it's hard to shine in a backline that does not.

[George Carlin]

I would pay money to hear Schiz and FES commentate alongside Hugh Dan for BBC Alba. Can you imagine? Awesome.

[Guest]

Given that nobody else is watching anyway, I think it would be quite profitable for the SRU.

Rugby is well behind on commentary - generally it is poor although at least in the UK they know what's going on. Listening to US commentary is THE WORST.

[jimbopip]

Holla, you pampered jades of the east! Say thank you to Big Al and the boys for allowing you two points in your, ultimately unsuccessful, attempt to qualify for European rugby next year.
Was watching in a very noisy club house, "Alba? Wot the facc's that then?" But from what I could see Glasgow were very comfortable and the only question was how many tries we were going to score. Actually I only just discovered how many when I logged on: things got a bit blurry.      
So, now we look forward to a home semi, and I need to start convincing the present MrsPip that I deserve a trip to the dear green place.

[funnyExiledScot]

Whilst I rarely find much to agree with Schizoid on, I do think Jackson had a great game at 10. Ran hard and flat and brought his runners onto the ball nicely. His kicking from hand was superb, and he used the wind brilliantly.

It's a difficult case to make arguing that Weir is or ever will be a better player. He's gone backwards this season, and let's hope that's just a temporary blip.

[BigGee]

Form comes and goes, Jacko had a good game last night no doubt but we all know that he to has been hopelessly inconsistent at times. Weir will have been looking on for the past couple of weeks and will not be unaware of what he needs to do to cement his place back in the team. Last year we were all calling for Weir to be given a run in the team!

The injury took a lot out of him as did playing through the 6 nations, trying to pilot a losing, out of form team. A couple of weeks off may not have done him any harm at all and we will see what he can do behind a Glasgow pack that seems to be able to provide the ball on a plate. Lets not wright him off just yet. I still think it was the right choice to let Jacko go, this move to Wasps may be the making of him. Weir has a bit more time on his side and is deserving of a little more slack at this point in time.

[VinceWLB]

Jackson is a very good 10 -when he doesn't have the kicking duties that it- i for one am sorry to see him go as i don't think Glasgow play as well with Weir.

[BigGee]

Jackson is a very good 10 -when he doesn't have the kicking duties that it- i for one am sorry to see him go as i don't think Glasgow play as well with Weir.

You can't be a good 10 without being a good kicker though, certainly from hand. yes last night he was nailing 60m touchfinders, but there have been plenty times we have seen him miss those in the past. He looked like a man liberated last night, free from pressure. Would he continue to play like that with the pressure of Scottish expectation on his back, he has not managed it consistently before.

In Scotland all the international players are effectively big fishes in a small pond. That won't be the case for Jackson at Wasps. His international reputation will count for nothing and he will only be judged on performances for the club. He won't be under any particular media spotlight either down there and will be free to concentrate on his game and little else.

Jackson has been an unfulfilled talent at Glasgow, promising so much and never quite delivering, he had plenty of opportunities to nail down that starting shirt against Parks, then Weir and now Russell as well. He never quite managed it and that is why he needs to move while he still has the chance to prove that he really can be an international FH. I think it is entirely possible that he may prove that down south, but he does need that move to drag that little bit of extra out of him.

[jimbopip]

Just looked at the upcoming fixtures: Glasgow can only miss out if we self-destruct against the bottom two teams in the league.
Ironically if the MFL can man up against Munster and Leinster we can finish top.
C'mon the Luvvies you can do it.

[IanBru]

There's a strange symmetry in cheering madly for my second and third teams, Edinburgh and Ulster, to do the business for us in the next two weeks!

[MacKnocked-on]

Form comes and goes, Jacko had a good game last night no doubt but we all know that he to has been hopelessly inconsistent at times. Weir will have been looking on for the past couple of weeks and will not be unaware of what he needs to do to cement his place back in the team. Last year we were all calling for Weir to be given a run in the team!

The injury took a lot out of him as did playing through the 6 nations, trying to pilot a losing, out of form team. A couple of weeks off may not have done him any harm at all and we will see what he can do behind a Glasgow pack that seems to be able to provide the ball on a plate. Lets not wright him off just yet. I still think it was the right choice to let Jacko go, this move to Wasps may be the making of him. Weir has a bit more time on his side and is deserving of a little more slack at this point in time.

I agree, fair to say that last night's performance form Jacko was a lot better than his usual, and it was at club level remember not international where he has looked less than good quite often. Hopefully the Wasps move will bring him on but I feel Russell has looked very good and deserves a chance on the summer tour. I know people are saying he should have a rest and prepare for next year but Scotland desperately needs to find a 10 and we can't really afford to hang about unfortunately and persist with players who perhaps aren't our best choices.
Scott and Bennett look like they could be an excellent centre partnership with Dunbar and Horne also in the mix, Maitland and Visser and Seymour looking great wing options and Cuthbert and Murchie both safe 15s should Hogg not feature for whatever reason. Things are looking really good in the backs, we need the correct 10 to fulfill the potential.

[21st Century Schizoid Man]

Well on the evidence of what is going on in the Amlin semi Wasps v Bath, Jacko will waltz into the Wasps 10 jersey as that Goode guy is bloody awful. Who was the Luvvies fh last night- he was really poor ? Mark Bennett is beginning to demonstrate what a classy centre he is - and only 20 yo. Bet you Clermont wish they still had him to play with Fofana.

Really poor effort from the MFL support - they stayed away in droves. Reckon there was 8,800 Warriors and 55 MFLs at Scotstoun last night. Shame they missed a belter of a match. Can I say the ref did very well in his first Rabo game - he was very lenient to the MFL forwards but helped create a fast, open game.

[RDW]

Also Ben Atiga seemed to be operating almost in a coaching role, am I completely mistaken here or is there some truth in this?

Was he not just water boy?

[GLove39]

Also Ben Atiga seemed to be operating almost in a coaching role, am I completely mistaken here or is there some truth in this?

Was he not just water pie boy?

[George Carlin]

Form comes and goes, Jacko had a good game last night no doubt but we all know that he to has been hopelessly inconsistent at times. Weir will have been looking on for the past couple of weeks and will not be unaware of what he needs to do to cement his place back in the team. Last year we were all calling for Weir to be given a run in the team!

The injury took a lot out of him as did playing through the 6 nations, trying to pilot a losing, out of form team. A couple of weeks off may not have done him any harm at all and we will see what he can do behind a Glasgow pack that seems to be able to provide the ball on a plate. Lets not wright him off just yet. I still think it was the right choice to let Jacko go, this move to Wasps may be the making of him. Weir has a bit more time on his side and is deserving of a little more slack at this point in time.

Very important post, this one and should be re-read with a stiff drink every time Jackson looks great going forward, with his pack providing great service.

We know where we are with Jackson. We've all watched him for years. He is great on the front foot and in broken play. There's no way Weir could have made the break that set up the first try away in Toulon. We know this. But he's only half a complete player. His kicking from hand simply isn't good enough or long enough consistently and we all know about his kicking for goal. Wasps will get a lot of out of him if they use him well. However, you cannot shake the feeling that an international 10 should have more to his all round game at his age.

Fair enough, Finn Russell needs to put on a couple of stones. But then again, so does young Sam Davies at the Ospreys. Ian Madigan is only about 14 stones soaking wet and Paddy Jackson is hardly a brick latrine. If that's the extent of the criticisms we're aiming at him, then we're in a fairly good place with such a young player. Could Weir have made the offload which set up Maitland for his try against the Ulstermen? Nope.

We used to depend upon Dan Parks and Phil Godman, for the love of feck. Now, we're being sniffy about the shortcomings of a 21 year old who has played a couple of legue games now against top class opponents and hasn't looked out of place. Really? The glass is half full for me. FR should definitely tour. The real issue for Glasgow is that Weir needs to step up and show a hell of a lot more than he's shown this year. Unless Peter Horne is still earmarked as a 10, I would think that Glasgow needs to bring in more cover at 10 this summer. I'll be interested to see whom that might be.

[123456789]

I think if we could combine Weir from last season and the Jackson that rears his head every three or four games we would have an absolutely fantastic player. Weir's kicking, mentality and consistency combined with Jackson's raw talent and creativity would be fantastic. When attacking Weir seems to force things if he's not confident, if we'd had Jackson against France Huget would never have scored, and we would have got seven points and we would have won the game comfortably, on the other hand with Jackson we never would have won in Italy.

Russell looks like he could be the closest thing to this, and as a result he needs to be treated more carefully than an Edinburgh player at a spa day, we need to get him in with the squad this summer before the world cup because he should be first choice by then and we don't want him chucked in at the deep end in Autumn, at the same time we don't want to stick him in with 70,000 Afrikaaners cheering their stars on to break the skinny, wee Scottish fly-half. I say take him along, give him 40-60 mins against USA and Canada, give him the last 20 against Argentina and either send him home afterwards or let him enjoy the atmosphere in South Africa. Then get him home for a proper pre-season, and let him rip on the rest of world rugby.

[funnyExiledScot]

Russell looks the most promising prospect, mainly down to limited opportunities to screw up so far, and the fact that Glasgow have been on good form at the tail end of the season when he's played. Jackson still has the talent to play open rugby, but when the chips are down and the pressure is on he can buckle, but so can Weir. This fabled consistency and mentality have not shown up this season, and even even die hard Weir supporters must be wondering whether he's just Dan Parks with better defence (not that he defended well in the 6 nations).

He deserves more chances, and I'd stand by him this summer, but Weir needs to cut down the errors and prove that he's the solid option and a safe pair of hands. He's been anything but this season.

[123456789]

The consistency and security he offers I admit has gone this season but I think that's injury coupled with the Scott Johnson factor, as we saw in the Italy game his mentality is unquestionable; let's not kid ourselves about Jackson either, one good game against Edinburgh does not make him some sort of Quade Cooper - Carlos Spencer esque maverick, he's had 23 Scotland caps and over 100 Glasgow appearances and in very few of them has he been the mercurial fly-half that we like to pretend he is and he occasionally threatens to be.

Russell looks better than both of them but I think we need more time to make sure that is not merely the result of just not being Weir or Jackson in the same way Jackson was trumpeted as the saviour to Scottish rugby just because he wasn't Dan Parks. An important test will be if Russell plays in the play-offs and how he plays, if me comes out of it favourably he may well be the real deal.

[EST]

The consistency and security he offers I admit has gone this season but I think that's injury coupled with the Scott Johnson factor, as we saw in the Italy game his mentality is unquestionable; let's not kid ourselves about Jackson either, one good game against Edinburgh does not make him some sort of Quade Cooper - Carlos Spencer esque maverick, he's had 23 Scotland caps and over 100 Glasgow appearances and in very few of them has he been the mercurial fly-half that we like to pretend he is and he occasionally threatens to be.

Russell looks better than both of them but I think we need more time to make sure that is not merely the result of just not being Weir or Jackson in the same way Jackson was trumpeted as the saviour to Scottish rugby just because he wasn't Dan Parks. An important test will be if Russell plays in the play-offs and how he plays, if me comes out of it favourably he may well be the real deal.

Bang on Numbers, I remember Jackson was hailed as the answer to our prayers, simply because he wasn't the great side-burned one. Russell certainly looks like the real deal - he has that precious quality of always looking like he has time on the ball. But the next test will be the playoffs and he might not even be involved in those, depending on how Toonie wants to play out the rest of the season. If he gets picked and performs in those, I think he should be involved in some shape or form during the summer.

I have been a bit of a critic of old Rhubarb, but I thought yesterday was one of the best games I have ever seen him play. Good kicking out of hand and he brought his outside backs into the game superbly. The Wasps move is fantastic for him and Scottish rugby, hopefully he has a run of games and starts to gain some consistency.

[George Carlin]

Russell looks the most promising prospect, mainly down to limited opportunities to screw up so far, and the fact that Glasgow have been on good form at the tail end of the season when he's played. Jackson still has the talent to play open rugby, but when the chips are down and the pressure is on he can buckle, but so can Weir. This fabled consistency and mentality have not shown up this season, and even even die hard Weir supporters must be wondering whether he's just Dan Parks with better defence (not that he defended well in the 6 nations).

He deserves more chances, and I'd stand by him this summer, but Weir needs to cut down the errors and prove that he's the solid option and a safe pair of hands. He's been anything but this season.

Okay, I'll bite. Just so that I'm understanding correctly - Russell looks good because he hasn't had enough game time to show us that he, in fact, isn't very good? Something of a circular argument, perhaps? Not clear either what our best option at 10 is for the summer tour, either.

[BigGee]

I think we are going to see a few options at 10 and probably other positions for the summer tour. We have had this argument already in another thread, some feeling that we had to play our best side in all our games from now up to the world cup.

The fact is we can't do this as we don't yet know our best side due to a combination of some poor selection recently, a new coach who will no doubt have his own opinions and rather more pleasingly some new players Bennett, Russell, Welsh, Gray J, Murchie, Cuthbert and Seymour amongst others coming up fast on the rails and seriously putting their hands up for selection.

Like it or not, both the logistics of this tour and the previous comments mean that is going to be an experimental tour. I am not unhappy about that as it is not as if there is a lot of solid foundation to build on. Watching the game on Saturday we do have plenty good players and if they can be woven into a team by the new guy we may be onto something and not before time.

[123456789]

Russell looks the most promising prospect, mainly down to limited opportunities to screw up so far, and the fact that Glasgow have been on good form at the tail end of the season when he's played. Jackson still has the talent to play open rugby, but when the chips are down and the pressure is on he can buckle, but so can Weir. This fabled consistency and mentality have not shown up this season, and even even die hard Weir supporters must be wondering whether he's just Dan Parks with better defence (not that he defended well in the 6 nations).

He deserves more chances, and I'd stand by him this summer, but Weir needs to cut down the errors and prove that he's the solid option and a safe pair of hands. He's been anything but this season.

Okay, I'll bite. Just so that I'm understanding correctly - Russell looks good because he hasn't had enough game time to show us that he, in fact, isn't very good? Something of a circular argument, perhaps? Not clear either what our best option at 10 is for the summer tour, either.

I think that you'll find that a player should not be picked for Scotland until they have played 10000 minutes of pro rugby by which time they should have proved that they are in fact bad enough to play rugby internationally.

[21st Century Schizoid Man]

Yes but lets not parachute Josh Strauss into RWC15 just because he is the best N0 8 we have by a very long way ! That is not the Scottish way - jeez Big Bluto must be Wee weeing himself at all the Luvvies going on about how scared he was of Du Preez !! Feckin unbelievable     

[funnyExiledScot]

Russell looks the most promising prospect, mainly down to limited opportunities to screw up so far, and the fact that Glasgow have been on good form at the tail end of the season when he's played. Jackson still has the talent to play open rugby, but when the chips are down and the pressure is on he can buckle, but so can Weir. This fabled consistency and mentality have not shown up this season, and even even die hard Weir supporters must be wondering whether he's just Dan Parks with better defence (not that he defended well in the 6 nations).

He deserves more chances, and I'd stand by him this summer, but Weir needs to cut down the errors and prove that he's the solid option and a safe pair of hands. He's been anything but this season.

Okay, I'll bite. Just so that I'm understanding correctly - Russell looks good because he hasn't had enough game time to show us that he, in fact, isn't very good? Something of a circular argument, perhaps? Not clear either what our best option at 10 is for the summer tour, either.

Not circular at all. I'm just saying that from what we've seen of him at 10 so far in a Glasgow jersey, so far so good, but he's only played 2 or 3 times in that position and therefore we can't really compare him fairly to Jackson and Weir. Russell hasn't been tested under pressure yet. Had he played 10 as well as Jackson on Saturday, you'd have flown to Stockbridge to say I told you so. If Toonie gives him the rest of the season at 10, including the play offs, then we'll find out whether he's ready for Scotland. If he plays well in those games, then I'll happily back him for the summer tour. Playing at 12 for Glasgow is no preparation for 10 at international level.

[funnyExiledScot]

Yes but lets not parachute Josh Strauss into RWC15 just because he is the best N0 8 we have by a very long way !  That is not the Scottish way - jeez  Big Bluto must be Wee weeing himself at all the Luvvies going on about how scared he was of Du Preez  !!  Feckin unbelievable     

I didn't say we shouldn't pick Strauss at the World Cup, just that it will need to be carefully managed. Players like Harley and Wilson, players who have worked seriously hard to get into that squad, will have to be told that they are being dropped for someone yet to pull on a Scotland jersey, and who was unable to play in the warm up fixtures. There is no doubting his quality, in terms of ability he would make my squad, but Cotter will need to manage the situation, and make sure the squad is on board with the decision.

[George Carlin]

Russell looks the most promising prospect, mainly down to limited opportunities to screw up so far, and the fact that Glasgow have been on good form at the tail end of the season when he's played. Jackson still has the talent to play open rugby, but when the chips are down and the pressure is on he can buckle, but so can Weir. This fabled consistency and mentality have not shown up this season, and even even die hard Weir supporters must be wondering whether he's just Dan Parks with better defence (not that he defended well in the 6 nations).

He deserves more chances, and I'd stand by him this summer, but Weir needs to cut down the errors and prove that he's the solid option and a safe pair of hands. He's been anything but this season.

Okay, I'll bite. Just so that I'm understanding correctly - Russell looks good because he hasn't had enough game time to show us that he, in fact, isn't very good? Something of a circular argument, perhaps? Not clear either what our best option at 10 is for the summer tour, either.

Not circular at all. I'm just saying that from what we've seen of him at 10 so far in a Glasgow jersey, so far so good, but he's only played 2 or 3 times in that position and therefore we can't really compare him fairly to Jackson and Weir. Russell hasn't been tested under pressure yet. Had he played 10 as well as Jackson on Saturday, you'd have flown to Stockbridge to say I told you so. If Toonie gives him the rest of the season at 10, including the play offs, then we'll find out whether he's ready for Scotland. If he plays well in those games, then I'll happily back him for the summer tour. Playing at 12 for Glasgow is no preparation for 10 at international level.

Russell has played against Ospreys, Treviso, Munster and Ulster this season and was involved in a winning team each time, orchestrating the game from 10 against Ulster, who were second in the table at the time. I'm not sure that I'm willing to be more impressed with Jackson playing against a team that are more than 30 points behind Ulster in the league during a game in which Glasgow's pack was clearly more comfortable.

I don't think anyone is saying that Russell should start ahead for Scotland ahead of any of his competition, but there is something fundamentally wrong with starting on an assumption that Russell is not as good as either and this will be demonstrated with more gametime. If you mean that Russell will have ups and downs over the course of more matches, then that is undeniably true. it will be true of any player. If, on the other hand, you are saying that the games he has played in shows Russell in a disproprtionately favourable light, then I don't understand on what possible basis that view is justified.

An average player in a purple patch and a consistently good player in average form both look the same and I see no reason to prefer one assumption over another, particularly the more depressing option.

[George Carlin]

Yes but lets not parachute Josh Strauss into RWC15 just because he is the best N0 8 we have by a very long way !  That is not the Scottish way - jeez  Big Bluto must be Wee weeing himself at all the Luvvies going on about how scared he was of Du Preez  !!  Feckin unbelievable     

I didn't say we shouldn't pick Strauss at the World Cup, just that it will need to be carefully managed. Players like Harley and Wilson, players who have worked seriously hard to get into that squad, will have to be told that they are being dropped for someone yet to pull on a Scotland jersey, and who was unable to play in the warm up fixtures. There is no doubting his quality, in terms of ability he would make my squad, but Cotter will need to manage the situation, and make sure the squad is on board with the decision.

I have to say that I don't know why so much emphasis is being placed on having played for Scotland before, if (as it seems) a lot of these disadvantages can be mitigated by good advance preparation with the full national squad.

I also don't understand why Strauss' competitors need to be treated with kid gloves. Harley and Wilson are professional athletes and understand very well that their place will be under threat from any player who is eligible to take it. They compete week in and week out with Strauss for a Glasgow shirt. Why should an international place be any different? What sits behind this is a sense of favour to incumbent Scottish players and I don't agree with that. How many games would Strauss need to play for everyone to be comfortable, in that case? Can someone put a number on it so that I understand this better?

Billy Vunipola has 8 caps for England. Is that enought to let him play in a World Cup? Why was his debut against Argentina any less reason to be worried than Strauss' potential debut against the currently undecided winner of Asia Group 1? A lot of assumptions are flying around here.

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