1872 Cup Thread 2014: Glasgow vs Edinburgh

[George Carlin]

First topic message reminder :


 
It's that time again. The oldest club fixture in world rugby.
Glasgow looking for an unprecedented fifth successive win.
Bring it.
 

 
It's the the social club versus the golf club, the unwashed versus the exfoliators, the heroin users versus the social drinkers, the chips & cheese versus the salt & sauce, the ramraiders versus the online bank hackers, the knock-off Rolecks versus the original Pateks and the cardiac arrest versus the stress-related work sign-off for a fortnight.
 
A. The Fixtures
 
Round 1
Thursday 26 December 2013, 15:05
Edinburgh Rugby v Glasgow Warriors
Murrayfield Library
 
Referee: Neil Paterson (SRU, 57th competition game)
Assistant Referees: David Changleng, Bob Nevins (both SRU)
Citing Commissioner: John Cole (SRU)
TMO: Jim Yuille (SRU)
 
LIVE on BBC ALBA
 
Round 2
Saturday 26 April 2014, 19:05
Glasgow Warriors v Edinburgh Rugby
Scotstoun Stadium
 
Referee: Mathieu Raynal (FFR, 2nd competition game)
Assistant Referees: Neil Paterson, Graeme Marshall (both SRU)
Citing Commissioner: Douglas Hunter (SRU)
TMO: Jim Yuille (SRU)
 
LIVE on BBC ALBA
 
B. Form - head to head
 
20 Played 20
11 Wins 8
8 Losses 11
1 Draws 1
37 Tries 34
22 Conversions 22
53 Penalties 55
11 Drop Goals 5
421 Points 394
26 Avg. Age 26
 
C. Form - last year & this
 
Friday 21 December 2012, 19:35
Glasgow Warriors 23 - 14 Edinburgh Rugby
Scotstoun
 
Saturday 29 December 2012, 16:05
Edinburgh Rugby 17 - 21 Glasgow Warriors
Murrayfield
 
Thursday 26 December 2013, 15:05
Edinburgh Rugby 16 - 20 Glasgow Warriors
Murrayfield

D. Teams
 
Round 1:
 
(i) Edinburgh

15 Jack Cuthbert
14 Dougie Fife
13 Nick De Luca
12 Ben Atiga
11 Tom Brown
10 Greig Tonks
09 Greig Laidlaw (c)
 
01 Wicus Blaauw
02 Ross Ford
03 Willem Nel
04 Grant Gilchrist
05 Ollie Atkins
06 Cornell Du Preez
07 Roddy Grant
08 David Denton
 
16 Aleki Lutui
17 Alex Allan
18 Geoff Cross
19 Izak van der Westhuizen
20 Mike Coman
21 Grayson Hart
22 Tony Fenner
23 Sam Beard
 
(ii) Glasgow

15. Sean Maitland
14. Tommy Seymour
13. Stuart Hogg
12. Alex Dunbar
11. DTH van der Merwe
10. Duncan Weir
09. Chris Cusiter (c)
 
01. Ryan Grant
02. Pat MacArthur
03. Jon Welsh
04. Tim Swinson
05. Tom Ryder
06. Rob Harley
07. Tyrone Holmes
08. Ryan Wilson
 
16. Dougie Hall
17. Gordon Reid
18. Moray Low
19. Leone Nakarawa
20. Josh Strauss
21. Chris Fusaro
22. Henry Pyrgos
23. Ruaridh Jackson
 
Round 2
 
(i) Glasgow
 
15. Peter Murchie
14. Sean Maitland
13. Mark Bennett
12. Finn Russell
11. Tommy Seymour
10. Ruaridh Jackson
09. Chris Cusiter

01. Ryan Grant
02. Dougie Hall
03. Jon Welsh
04. Jonny Gray
05. Al Kellock (Captain)
06. Rob Harley
07. Chris Fusaro
08. Josh Strauss

16. Pat MacArthur
17. Jerry Yanuyanutawa
18. Moray Low
19. Leone Nakarawa
20. Ryan Wilson
21. Niko Matawalu
22. Duncan Weir
23. Richie Vernon
 
(ii) Edinburgh

15 Cuthbert
14 Brown
13 Scott
12 Strauss
11 Visser
10 Bezuidenhout
09 Laidlaw (c)

08 Denton
07 Du Preez
06 Coman
05 van der Westhuizen
04 Gilchrist
03 Nel
02 Ford
01 Dickinson

16 Hilterbrand
17 Blaauw
18 Berghan
19 Toolis
20 Leonardi
21 Hart
22 Francis
23 Beard

[funnyExiledScot]

GC, how many games has Russell actually started at 10? It's something like one or two. I'm merely saying that I want to see more of him in that position to make up my mind as to whether he merits a place in the Scotland squad. He's made a promising start, I'm not disputing that, and he looks a good prospect. Hopefully Toonie will pick him between now and the end of the season at 10. Jackson is leaving (plus seems to have fallen permanently out of favour with some fans) and Weir is not playing well, so there's a good case for using Russell.

[funnyExiledScot]

GC, on Strauss I think there are two issues. Firstly there's the point about playing for Scotland. I place less emphasis on this. I think there's an issue with him being unavailable for the warm up games purely so he can get used to the systems and combinations, but to be honest most quality imports get worse the more they play for clowns like Scott Johnson, so with the training etc I'm sure that could be overcome. I think the bigger issue is the other players. You say they compete week in week out for Glasgow, which is true, but by putting Strauss straight in to the squad without any game time for Scotland you are removing the international competition element, which is quite different. Swindon looked great for Glasgow, completely deserved his call, but looked small and underpowered at the highest level. What if Brown, Beattie and Denton all go strongly in the next 6 Nations, how do you compare that experience with club form? I do think Strauss would make the squad, but it's not black and white.

[RDW]

Edinburgh are now 9 points behind the Scarlets. Take into account the tame defeats to Zebre, Blues, Treviso and Connacht and we could have been in the top 6 just now.

These are the games we really need to be targeting next year. Any victory against the top 6 will be a bonus but will count for nothing if we're regularly losing to teams around us.

[BigGee]

GC, on Strauss I think there are two issues. Firstly there's the point about playing for Scotland. I place less emphasis on this. I think there's an issue with him being unavailable for the warm up games purely so he can get used to the systems and combinations, but to be honest most quality imports get worse the more they play for clowns like Scott Johnson, so with the training etc I'm sure that could be overcome. I think the bigger issue is the other players. You say they compete week in week out for Glasgow, which is true, but by putting Strauss straight in to the squad without any game time for Scotland you are removing the international competition element, which is quite different. Swindon looked great for Glasgow, completely deserved his call, but looked small and underpowered at the highest level. What if Brown, Beattie and Denton all go strongly in the next 6 Nations, how do you compare that experience with club form? I do think Strauss would make the squad, but it's not black and white.

I don't think Big Josh is going to look small and underpowered at any level!

[EWT Spoons]

Don’t have an issue necessarily with Strauss playing in the WC, as long as he’s fit and in form, I’m not a huge fan of the 3 year rule though and think it probably needs changed, but that’s a different conversation.

I’m not sure that the other players need to be managed any more than they would normally. They work in an environment where if someone is performing at a higher level than they are, then they’ll be selected ahead of them. They all know Strauss will qualify for Scotland by the time the WC comes round, so its up to them to show Vern (and Toonie/Solly at club level) that they are up to the job and deserve their place in the squad. I’m sure Vern will most likely talk to the players he has left out the squad, but I hope that would be generic across the board to help them understand why they have been left out and where they need to improve for next time.

In terms of the actual thread topic, I sadly only saw bits and pieces of the game, but from what I saw, Scott looked good, as did Bennett & Welsh. Sure there were others who played well but as I say, didn’t manage to catch the whole game.

Well done Glasgow, was no surprise you won and nice to see you up to 2nd in the table.

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

Having now had a chance to watch the full game, I thought Russell had a fairly decent game at 12 - some of his distribution is exquisite, there's no question that he buys other players time and space with his range of passing, from short reverse, thru fast flat, to looping miss, he does seem to have that all. His challenge for me will be to continue his development in terms of game management - and I hope that he gets the chance to do that on the summer tour. He may not be the finished article, but that shouldn't in any way stop his being selected

[BigGee]

My only worry about Russell is burn out, remembering that he played all of last summer as well. I think he should go for the North America trip but be spared the harder games at the end. He will have a taste of it then and hopefully by the autumn be in contention on merit

[funnyExiledScot]

My only worry about Russell is burn out, remembering that he played all of last summer as well. I think he should go for the North America trip but be spared the harder games at the end. He will have a taste of it then and hopefully by the autumn be in contention on merit

I think that's probably quite a sensible happy medium. Use Russell for the first two games and let Weir face Argentina and South Africa. Something like that. Given Russell has played more at 12 than at 10, and Scott is now playing 13, we may see Weir, Russell and Scott line up in North America as a combination. It wouldn't be my choice, but it would give Russell a slightly cushioned introduction to international rugby.

How Cotter manages the squad over those 4 games is going to be interesting. Kelly Brown, for example, is going to have a pretty intense end of season, and I wonder whether Cotter will use the summer to give Rob Harley or Al Strokosch a run instead (perhaps two games each), and give Brown the summer off to prepare for next season. We're hardly short in that position.

[funnyExiledScot]

Don’t have an issue necessarily with Strauss playing in the WC, as long as he’s fit and in form, I’m not a huge fan of the 3 year rule though and think it probably needs changed, but that’s a different conversation.

I’m not sure that the other players need to be managed any more than they would normally.  They work in an environment where if someone is performing at a higher level than they are, then they’ll be selected ahead of them.  They all know Strauss will qualify for Scotland by the time the WC comes round, so its up to them to show Vern (and Toonie/Solly at club level) that they are up to the job and deserve their place in the squad.  I’m sure Vern will most likely talk to the players he has left out the squad, but I hope that would be generic across the board to help them understand why they have been left out and where they need to improve for next time.

I completely agree, however remember by then you'll be comparing apples and oranges. You'll be trying to judge Strauss based on his Rabo12 performances (and God willing knockout games in the European Cup) against Brown, Harley, Strokosch, Denton, Wilson and Beattie in a Scotland jersey. You'll also need to factor in the experience of playing international rugby against a novice, as well as deciding in what particular role you want to use Strauss (6, 8 or specialist impact sub).

I personally think, given what we've seen thus far, that the optimal back row would be Brown, Rennie and Beattie, with Strauss on the bench. That's with everyone fit and playing at the top of their game, and with the Gray brothers together in the second row (surely a matter of time).

Still, the key to dropping Strauss straight into the squad will be communication. Not the sort of mumbo jumbo we've been suffering from SJ for two years, but a sensible rationale to whoever misses the cut to explain why Strauss is being picked, despite having no experience of international rugby or knockout HC rugby. Were the World Cup this summer it would be pretty straight forward. Scotland were mince this year and Strauss is having a storming end to the season. Perhaps that's why people are seeing it as such an easy decision at this point. If things are closer next year, and Cotter oversees a strong 6 Nations with Brown and Harley competing well for the 6 jersey and Beattie and Denton competing strongly for the 8 jersey, it might be trickier.

[cakeordeath]

What sits behind this is a sense of favour to incumbent Scottish players and I don't agree with that.

Couldn't agree with this statement more, and I think this is one of the biggest problems with Scottish Rugby. If Harley and Wilson are unhappy then they need to look at how to improve.

[BigGee]

My only worry about Russell is burn out, remembering that he played all of last summer as well. I think he should go for the North America trip but be spared the harder games at the end. He will have a taste of it then and hopefully by the autumn be in contention on merit

I think that's probably quite a sensible happy medium. Use Russell for the first two games and let Weir face Argentina and South Africa. Something like that. Given Russell has played more at 12 than at 10, and Scott is now playing 13, we may see Weir, Russell and Scott line up in North America as a combination. It wouldn't be my choice, but it would give Russell a slightly cushioned introduction to international rugby.

How Cotter manages the squad over those 4 games is going to be interesting. Kelly Brown, for example, is going to have a pretty intense end of season, and I wonder whether Cotter will use the summer to give Rob Harley or Al Strokosch a run instead (perhaps two games each), and give Brown the summer off to prepare for next season. We're hardly short in that position.

Remember some of how he manages it will be out of his hands. None of the non Scottish based players which now include Laidlaw, Cusiter, Stroks, Beattie, Gray R, Low, Cross, Lawson and Brown amongst others won't be able to play the South Africa leg. It is a shame as that only really leaves the Argentina game to put out a strongest team for. The North American games I am still sure will be used for a bit of mix and match to try out some players and some combo's.

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

The Scotland team for this week's Glasgow 7s leg of the IRB junkett includes Richie Vernon, Lee Jones and Jedi amongst others

[tigertattie]

No Bennett?

Toonie must have plans for the boy in the Rabo then!

[BigGee]

No Bennett?

Toonie must have plans for the boy in the Rabo then!

The way he has played in the last couple of games that is no great surprise!

[funnyExiledScot]

What sits behind this is a sense of favour to incumbent Scottish players and I don't agree with that.

Couldn't agree with this statement more, and I think this is one of the biggest problems with Scottish Rugby. If Harley and Wilson are unhappy then they need to look at how to improve.

Believe me, I am certainly not one to favour retaining players who deserve to be dropped. Absolutely not. There will be no problem at all simply starting Strauss from game one of the World Cup if he has a strong season with Glasgow and the other candidates are not playing well (either for club or country).

You earn the right to play for Scotland based on your club performances, and you need to maintain and improve upon that level of performance to retain the Scotland jersey.

The incumbant blindside flanker for Scotland is Ryan Wilson. There are no foreseeable circumstances under which I wouldn't select Josh Strauss ahead of Ryan Wilson at 6. None. I can be fairly clear on that, and if Wilson needs that explained to him then a small child with a broken crayon could draw him a picture. Furthermore, were I selecting a Scotland XV for next weekend and were Strauss to be available, I'd select him over David Denton at 8 in a heartbeat as well (Denton's handling skills seem to have regressed somewhat this season to the extent where he often seems to smash through the opponent forgetting to take the ball with him, which rather misses the point).

The problem comes if Denton or Beattie have a strong season for club and country (and both are extremely capable number 8's when on form) and Brown returns to the 6 jersey as captain. What then? Does Strauss still parachute straight into the Scotland squad if there's little to choose between his form and that of Beattie and/or Denton? Does the fact that they have performed strongly for Scotland against international opposition count for nothing?

Unlike GC I am an eternal optimist. We shouldn't assume Scotland will be terrible next season and crying out for any and all SH origin players to save us from ourselves. We have a lot of talent in the back row, and assuming Cotter manages to be more competent than Scott Johnson, with three home games we could really improve. Remember the effect Frank Hadden had on his first 6 Nations? A lot can change in 12 months. By the World Cup Finn Russell's starts at 10 may even have reached double figures, and he'll be a veteran in the eyes of some....

[funnyExiledScot]

I'm pleased Bennett is being retained to play proper XV a side rugby. I don't think he'll develop much in the 7's arena, and he needs to be playing at 13 as much as possible for Glasgow, particularly in the big end of season games coming up. That's invaluable experience for our young players, going up against the top Irish provinces in meaningful knockout fixtures.

[Captain_Sensible]

The Scotland team for this week's Glasgow 7s leg of the IRB junkett includes Richie Vernon, Lee Jones and Jedi amongst others

Can we assume from this that either one of Dunbar and Horne are now fit for the remaining league games? Let's hope so. I have a feeling that our midfield defence will need Dunbar's presence when Glasgow get to the semis. He's a very important player now.

[funnyExiledScot]

Agreed, Russell is talented but he's a better playmaker at 10 than an inside centre. His distribution is fine, and he's no shirker in defence from what I've seen, but against players like James Downey and Lualua, or Marshall and Cave, you definitely want Horne or Dunbar at 12.

[Captain_Sensible]

Agreed, Russell is talented but he's a better playmaker at 10 than an inside centre. His distribution is fine, and he's no shirker in defence from what I've seen, but against players like James Downey and Lualua, or Marshall and Cave, you definitely want Horne or Dunbar at 12.

Pretty much. Both Russell and Bennett are fine young players, and as you say they don't lack for courage in defence. But, Horne and Dunbar have more experience, and Dunbar especially is a great defensive organiser at 13. He's really grown in stature this year. Vital for club and country. Decent bloke to boot, it seems.

[tigertattie]

I touted the idea of Bennett coming to Edinburgh to get game time and to learn and grow with Matt Scott (12)

the unwashed decided this was a bad idea as they are only interested in the needs of Glasgow and felt that they were not due us a favour even though we have loaned them two of Scotland's most prolific try scorers (with one try each, Lee Jones and Geoff Cross)

Sooooooooooooooo

How about a change in personel?

We bin our Struass, you give us Vernon and we have Matt Scott (12) playing inside centre and Vernon (8) at outside centre?

[George Carlin]

What sits behind this is a sense of favour to incumbent Scottish players and I don't agree with that.

Couldn't agree with this statement more, and I think this is one of the biggest problems with Scottish Rugby. If Harley and Wilson are unhappy then they need to look at how to improve.

...

Unlike GC I am an eternal optimist. We shouldn't assume Scotland will be terrible next season and crying out for any and all SH origin players to save us from ourselves. We have a lot of talent in the back row, and assuming Cotter manages to be more competent than Scott Johnson, with three home games we could really improve. Remember the effect Frank Hadden had on his first 6 Nations? A lot can change in 12 months. By the World Cup Finn Russell's starts at 10 may even have reached double figures, and he'll be a veteran in the eyes of some....

  This from a man whose assessment of a talented young Scottish player on the previous page was:

Russell looks the most promising prospect, mainly down to limited opportunities to screw up so far...

The very fact that you make a distinction between "SH origin players" and (presumably) pureblood Scots from Gryffindor House is very interesting. Not only don't I understand what difference it makes for selection purposes, but it seems to feed back into a general inferiority complex about 'needing' people like Strauss and Maitland to come over. None of those players will regard their presence as 'saving us'. Many more who have come over and will be eligible simply won't get selected. Strauss, as has been pointed out, could be one of them. This whole thing about 'needing' to fall back on people not born in Scotland is decidedly whiffy and I don't like it.

Are we really going to get into this again about whether residency rules should apply? I couldn't even begin to give a crap about how players regard themselves or the fact that you don't need to born here any more. They're here. Bernard Lapasset says they can play. That's it. The rest of it we just have to get over. It really didn't occur to me to feel insulted by the presence of Martin Leslie, Sean Lineen, Glenn Metcalfe, Tim Visser, the Evans brothers, Nathan Hines or Tim Swinson when I watched them. I'm certainly not any less proud when we win.

Clearly, I need two Panadol and a lie down.

[21st Century Schizoid Man]

Give the Luvvies Vernon !!!! Are you mad ?

No... but you can have Byron McGuigan though !  

[jimbopip]

So the Luvvies want Richie Vernon; loose forward, flying centre and tight-head prop(sevens)?
Which three players will they give us in exchange?
N.B. for the purposes of this exchange "player" shall be taken to mean males who are able and willing to (a) score tries on a regular basis, not just to celebrate the arrival of the latest Nivea For Men product, (b) tackle something bulkier than FES' investment portfolio and (c) hate losing enough to actually make an effort (see Kellock A.)

[funnyExiledScot]

What sits behind this is a sense of favour to incumbent Scottish players and I don't agree with that.

Couldn't agree with this statement more, and I think this is one of the biggest problems with Scottish Rugby. If Harley and Wilson are unhappy then they need to look at how to improve.

...

Unlike GC I am an eternal optimist. We shouldn't assume Scotland will be terrible next season and crying out for any and all SH origin players to save us from ourselves. We have a lot of talent in the back row, and assuming Cotter manages to be more competent than Scott Johnson, with three home games we could really improve. Remember the effect Frank Hadden had on his first 6 Nations? A lot can change in 12 months. By the World Cup Finn Russell's starts at 10 may even have reached double figures, and he'll be a veteran in the eyes of some....

  This from a man whose assessment of a talented young Scottish player on the previous page was:

Russell looks the most promising prospect, mainly down to limited opportunities to screw up so far...

The very fact that you make a distinction between "SH origin players" and (presumably) pureblood Scots from Gryffindor House is very interesting. Not only don't I understand what difference it makes for selection purposes, but it seems to feed back into a general inferiority complex about 'needing' people like Strauss and Maitland to come over. None of those players will regard their presence as 'saving us'. Many more who have come over and will be eligible simply won't get selected. Strauss, as has been pointed out, could be one of them. This whole thing about 'needing' to fall back on people not born in Scotland is decidedly whiffy and I don't like it.

Are we really going to get into this again about whether residency rules should apply? I couldn't even begin to give a crap about how players regard themselves or the fact that you don't need to born here any more. They're here. Bernard Lapasset says they can play. That's it. The rest of it we just have to get over. It really didn't occur to me to feel insulted by the presence of Martin Leslie, Sean Lineen, Glenn Metcalfe, Tim Visser, the Evans brothers, Nathan Hines or Tim Swinson when I watched them. I'm certainly not any less proud when we win.

Clearly, I need two Panadol and a lie down.

GC - we have dedicated individuals within the SRU whose sole job it is to scour the earth convincing players to come over to Scotland as "Project Players". I think the cat is rather out of the bag on that one. These players aren't coming forward, they are being headhunted because the existing talent pool in this country isn't good enough. In terms of selection my view is very much that Cotter should pick the players available and put the selection politics to one side. I wasn't seeking to make a point around where players come from, rather that the current "3 year rule" does leave open a particular issue around Strauss with this World Cup, in that he qualifies directly between the warm-up games, where the team prepares for the World Cup, and the World Cup itself. In terms of morale, I do think that presents an issue for players who may play well in the warm-ups, and who don't make the cut in favour of a player with no international experience.

Anyway, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe the players who have gone through the age grades for Scotland and were born and bred in this country won't care if they miss out on an international rugby career because we've scoured the planet for better "project players", whose first notion of Scotland was a phone call from Sean Lineen. As a fan I will feel no less proud if our side win on this basis, it's what the rules allow and other countries have been doing it for years, so on this I think we're agreed. But then again we haven't spend our careers focusing on playing rugby for Scotland, training day in day out to make the cut, only to be ditched for a "project player" who has been resident in Scotland for a few years. From a player perspective, given the particularly acute timing with the Strauss situation qualifying days before the start of the tournament, I suspect some careful management and judgement from Cotter will be required. Sounds like this is a minority view.

[tigertattie]

I dont think FES has an issue with "imported" players.  He doesnt strike me as that sort of person.

What we do know is that FES likes a player to work their way up a ladder.

Dropping Strauss straight into a world cup is a bit risky.  He'll not have any international experience, he will not be up to speed on Scotland's tactics and gameplay etc.  FES has no issue with Strauss one day playing for Scotland He'd just rather he was brought on like many others through friendlies and the 6ns before jumping right into the World Cup (I think)

Also, folk keep forgetting that Maitland qualifies for Scotland through parentage (just like Metcalff, the Leslie Bros, Wagga etc. Only Visser, and soon Strauss, qualify through residency alone!!!

[funnyExiledScot]

I dont think FES has an issue with "imported" players.  He doesnt strike me as that sort of person.

What we do know is that FES likes a player to work their way up a ladder.

Dropping Strauss straight into a world cup is a bit risky.  He'll not have any international experience, he will not be up to speed on Scotland's tactics and gameplay etc.  FES has no issue with Strauss one day playing for Scotland He'd just rather he was brought on like many others through friendlies and the 6ns before jumping right into the World Cup (I think)

Also, folk keep forgetting that Maitland qualifies for Scotland through parentage (just like Metcalff, the Leslie Bros, Wagga etc. Only Visser, and soon Strauss, qualify through residency alone!!!

Well that bit is easy. If the ball is passed to you either crab sideways and get isolated (see Ryan Wilson), kick it out on the full (see Duncan Weir) or drop it (see David Denton). If the ball is aimlessly hoofed in the air with no accuracy (see Greg Laidlaw), whatever you do don't chase it (see entire Scotland XV).

Pretty sure Bluto will get the hang of it.

Just wanted to show off my optimism for GC's benefit.....

[Totalflanker]

I didn't realise you were a tactics man FES.....

[George Carlin]

I dont think FES has an issue with "imported" players.  He doesnt strike me as that sort of person.

What we do know is that FES likes a player to work their way up a ladder.

Dropping Strauss straight into a world cup is a bit risky.  He'll not have any international experience, he will not be up to speed on Scotland's tactics and gameplay etc.  FES has no issue with Strauss one day playing for Scotland He'd just rather he was brought on like many others through friendlies and the 6ns before jumping right into the World Cup (I think)

Also, folk keep forgetting that Maitland qualifies for Scotland through parentage (just like Metcalff, the Leslie Bros, Wagga etc. Only Visser, and soon Strauss, qualify through residency alone!!!

Well that bit is easy. If the ball is passed to you either crab sideways and get isolated (see Ryan Wilson), kick it out on the full (see Duncan Weir) or drop it (see David Denton). If the ball is aimlessly hoofed in the air with no accuracy (see Greg Laidlaw), whatever you do don't chase it (see entire Scotland XV).

Pretty sure Bluto will get the hang of it.

Just wanted to show off my optimism for GC's benefit.....

[funnyExiledScot]

I didn't realise you were a tactics man FES.....

....oh yes, although more chalk and blackboard than a Powerpoint man.

I'm hoping to upgrade to whiteboard soon. My Glasgow brethren can sniff the pens.

[jimbopip]

I didn't realise you were a tactics man FES.....

....oh yes, although more chalk and blackboard than a Powerpoint man.

I'm hoping to upgrade to whiteboard soon. My Glasgow brethren can sniff the pens.

Pens are passé: it's the cleaning fluid you want to be swigging.

[21st Century Schizoid Man]

GC,

ya doin a Treviso thread dude ?

[George Carlin]

GC,

ya doin a Treviso thread dude ?

https://www.606v2.com/t53435-benetton-treviso-v-glasgow-warriors-2-may#2626345 

[George Carlin]

Delayed and strangely insipid press release from Glasgow about Barry fecking off back to New Zealand:

Byron McGuigan has left Glasgow Warriors after almost two years at Scotstoun.
The Namibian-born back, who qualifies to play for Scotland, joined the club at the start of the 2012/13 season.

McGuigan made 20 appearances and scored four tries for the RaboDirect PRO12 side.

He won his first Scotland A cap in the draw with England Saxons in January.

Glasgow Warriors head coach Gregor Townsend said: "Byron has really developed since he joined us and it was great to see him play for Scotland A earlier this year and score on his debut.
"He has played in some key games for the club this season and we'd like to wish him all the best for the future."

[funnyExiledScot]

I suspect he hasn't recovered from the blow of Glasgow borrowing Lee Jones to cover his position. There's only so much a man can take.

[tigertattie]

I suspect he hasn't recovered from the blow of Glasgow borrowing Lee Jones to cover his position. There's only so much a man can take.

I know.  What a slap in the coupon eh!

It would be like a factory Health and Saftey officer being replaced by Frank Spencer!

[21st Century Schizoid Man]

Lee Jones is, defensively, a lot stronger than Visser !

[funnyExiledScot]

Lee Jones is, defensively, a lot stronger than Visser !

Hmmm, a bit like saying Glasgow is a more attractive city than Birmingham. More a race to the bottom.

[21st Century Schizoid Man]

Yes well your wendyball team seem to be hitting rock bottom thats not in doubt    Pity the other morons from the East of the city couldn't go bust too. One can only dream !

[RDW]

Bringing football into a rugby forum - cardinal sin number 1!   

[funnyExiledScot]

Yes well your wendyball team seem to be hitting rock bottom thats not in doubt    Pity the other morons from the East of the city couldn't go bust too.  One can only dream !

Played 35, won 33, drawn 2, lost zero. Yes, zero.

  

[A Simply Mesmeric Try]

Delayed and strangely insipid press release from Glasgow about Barry fecking off back to New Zealand:

Byron McGuigan has left Glasgow Warriors after almost two years at Scotstoun.
The Namibian-born back, who qualifies to play for Scotland, joined the club at the start of the 2012/13 season.

McGuigan made 20 appearances and scored four tries for the RaboDirect PRO12 side.

He won his first Scotland A cap in the draw with England Saxons in January.

Glasgow Warriors head coach Gregor Townsend said: "Byron has really developed since he joined us and it was great to see him play for Scotland A earlier this year and score on his debut.
"He has played in some key games for the club this season and we'd like to wish him all the best for the future."

I saw that a few days ago, but can't find where I read it. Off to Hawks Bay if I remember right.
He can't have felt too settled to have moved on so quickly. Plus with Shlong, No Maits, Tommygun Seymour, Alphabeti-Spaghetti, Wee Jones, Rory Hughes, Carlin Isles, {also sometimes Ritchie "V8 Turbo" Vernon and Matawalu} all playing on the wings, he can't have seen too many opportunities. Also, as you all have noticed, centre is well covered too.   

Oh well, he's tied to Scotland, so here's to him getting some game time in NZ  

EDIT: With Murray McConnell getting a senior contract, any word on Ali Price?

[21st Century Schizoid Man]

Byron McG off tp Bay Of Plenty I think !

[A Simply Mesmeric Try]

Byron McG off tp Bay Of Plenty I think !

Hawkes Bay/Bay of Plenty. Either way he's beside the South Pacific Ocean! Maybe he's a surfer. Most surfers I know get real crabby when they're away from their waves... Gnarly dudes!

[TJ]

On imported players. IMO they mainly come in two types. People who will make Scotland their home and want to play for Scotland. See Sean Lineen / Dave Denton. We want them and they are welcome.
The other is the chap who is not quite good enough to play for his "real" country and comes to Scotland for money and the chance of international rugby. See Brendon Laney. They can go away and procreate. Occasionally there is a 3rd the "accidental scot" - See John Leslie IIRC he came over on a working holiday / see the world type trip played a bit of club rugby in Scotland and forced his way into the side with performances. I don't think he came over to try to get into the Scotland side but came over to play a bit of rugby and was so good we had to have him.

[George Carlin]

In no way a crass attempt to push this thread over 800 posts (  ), do people think that the manner of qualification should have any bearing on whether the player should be selected?

There is quite simply a massive grey area about how players feel about their country and what it means to them to play international rugby for a particular side. A particularly acute category are people who are born in one country but are moved to another by their parents at a young age. The issue is therefore that the country which they moved to is all that player knows and associates with. Joe Rokocoko was 5 when he moved to NZ, Toby Faletau was 8 when he moved to Wales and Manu Tualagi was 12 when he arrived in England. Is there a sliding scale that we apply to assess objectively how players 'must' feel about their nationality? Of course not.

The real issue is how we feel about them, not how they feel about playing the country that we were born in. Which raises a completely different issue about whom a national sports team is for in the first place.

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

Indeed, GC, so there really can be little criticism about specific players providing that the rules have been followed - that of course does not mean that the rules are perfect, personally I'd prefer to see the residency qualification upped to 5 yrs

[funnyExiledScot]

As long as the player qualifies for Scotland under the rules when selected, I don't give a monkeys personally how or why they've qualified. Rules are rules, and you can be fairly sure that other nations will maximise the rules to their advantage, and Scotland is certainly not in a position to be turning away talented players who want to represent the country.

Whether the rules are right, I think that's a separate issue. I was actually going to say 5 years residency sounds more sensible, but given that ASBO has expressed a similar view, I feel I ought to give that position more thought.

In terms of trying to distinguish between different types of player based on how they qualified, that's nonsense. Scotland coaches over the years have proven themselves perfectly incompetent at picking XVs without trying to add an irrelevant criterion into the mix. The question marks about players like Andrew Mower, Brendan Laney, Dan Parks etc. to my mind have nothing to do with their qualification status. Yes, it may irk players born and bred in Scotland that they may miss out on playing for Scotland when there's a chap taking their place who has known these lands for 3 years on the nose, but frankly what really gets their goat is when a player less good than them is playing for Scotland in their place, whether that be Marcus Di Rollo, World Class Phil, Al Kellock or the latest Sean Lineen recruit covered head to toe in Maori tattoos whose only experience of Scotland is Edinburgh airport and our first class tram network.

[tigertattie]

The issue around players from over-seas coming to play for scotland is that the perception (rightfully or wrongly) for young players is "why bother trying for a scotland place. I'll train for years then be over-looked for some Kiwi"

What we need the perception to be is "I'm gonna train and get better so that I'm the best player there is so no one has a look in at taking 'my' place in the scotland team"

[funnyExiledScot]

To be honest given the lottery of Scott Johnson's team selections, I'm surprised any of the players bothered pushing themselves and training hard. Not really an overseas player issue, just a coach out of his depth unable to pick the best players in the right positions.

I agree though, the mindset in the younger players does need to be right. All players should know that the squad will be picked on merit, with no favourites.

The Strauss situation, which started this debate (I think), is a trickier case. The issue there is how to you determine "merit". We're talking about the World Cup, the pinnacle of international rugby, and Cotter is going to have to decide whether a player without any international experience or proving himself in international rugby, "merits" selection over a player who has also performed well at club level (otherwise he wouldn't be in the international set-up if we assume Cotter is better than Johnson) and who has, we assume, been playing well in the 6 Nations. Some fans who don't share my view will see this as a "foreign" player coming in an taking the slot of a "Scot". The real issue though is merit, and whether Cotter will have enough justification to drop a player in favour of Strauss, purely on the back of his performances at Glasgow, when that other player may also have good form plus international experience.

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

If Strauss has been training with the squad for the previous say 6 months or so, fES, does that ease your concerns? Else would he need to participate in a 'possibles' vs 'probables' game to earn his place?

[Sponsored content]