What would happen to Irish and scots pro teams if the welsh regions jump ship?

First topic message reminder :

The worrying state of welsh regional rugby has the possibility of dragging northern hemisphere rugby to its knees at the moment should the existing regions move to the English league.it may or may not be a short term fix for some of the welsh sides at the moment but the effect on the international game could be disastrous in this part of the world. For all the conjecture of the welsh and English about what the benefits of such a move would be I have heard surprisingly little from the scots and Irish for whom such a move would be a doomsday scenario and possibly finish professional rugby in both countries.

Should the welsh move to the premiership where would the competition come from for the scots and Irish and Italians come to that..how could rugby in those countries then be sustained. Does anyone think the regions are looking at the long term repercussions of what they are considering or is it very much Everyman for himself at the moment.

MrsP wrote:How about we declare a coup d'etat and sort the whole thing out ourselves?

I reckon we could have it all done and dusted and still be home in time for the Carol Service and mince pies!

  

If we start after breakfast on Boxing Day we would be finished not too long after lunch. I like the idea of staging a coup. Where you lead, Generalissimo MrsP, I will follow (at a discreet distance of course).

Notch wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:When you think of it why not a British and Irish league.

Div 1 - Top 6 in the Pro12 + 6 from the Aviva
Div 2 - Next 4 in the Pro12 + 6 from the Aviva + 2 English Championship
Div 3 - 12 from the English Championship (with some sort of provision for extra Welsh or Scottish teams to enter)

2 up 2 down between the top two leagues and 1 up 1 down between the bottom two.

The Italian's need to be added to the French league - say 3/4 teams in L2 initially

Honestly believe that is the way to go

I think we'd need some sort of separate Irish inter-provincial tournament- couldn't stomach the idea of missing out on the interpros if Connacht or anyone else got relegated.

Still don't think it would quite work tbh. How long before the complaints over Wales extra Autumn test or the Irish Player Management Program started in earnest... simply don't think the PRL are willing to play ball with our Unions anyway.

Any long term solution must get balance right between club/region and country. I think that means clubs/regions must know when they have rights to players and when international teams have priority. Maybe that means an extra week for the international window and a maximum number of club/regional games for international squad player. The main thing is that the same agreed rules apply to all clubs and countries.

Why would a British and Irish league doom pro rugby in another country - which country are you thinking of?

If its the Italians all I have to say is I cant see them staying unless the finances change i.e. they stop having to pay to play. So they may well leave. A handful of teams in the French L2 is the way to go.

Lets be brutally honest a Pro12 where only 1 Scottish and 1 Welsh team can compete against the 3 Irish provinces is not a healthy state of affairs.
Next year the 3 Irish provinces could easily finish in 3 of the top 4 spots without one of them getting into top gear - that is not good.

Well Boxing Day (or Punching Day as one of the little Ps once called it!) would make it a rush job!

I have to go see the rellies that day so I'd have to be away by 12.30 at the latest. Still plenty of time. It will probably take longer to word process the agreement than to actually agree!

I should add that the little P concerned had misinterpreted the term "Boxing". She was not describing what happens when we get together with the rellies!

  

Us celts need to stick together. I can't see how celtic regions and english clubs can mix together successfully in a league. Their various purposes are at odds with one another. Us celts fit together very well. Doesn't mean we can't improve on what we have together. I just don't see a british league working. Jigsaw pieces from different boxes.

We meet the english and french often enough in europe and they are awesome occasions. We need to focus on improving the competitions we currently have.

The WRU must provide 4 teams to the Celtic League until 2017 from what I gather, and regardless what happens to the regions they could still do so.

Even if the 4 regions went to the Aviva, what would stop the WRU and the regions simply agreeing to put Cardiff RFC, Llanelli RFC, Newport RFC who all play at the regions stadiums, and RGC 1404 into the Rabo?

Persnally I don't see why the WRU dont cut the regions loose and let them play in the Aviva, while opening 2-3 new provinces in North, West and East, or North and South Wales. Wales would then have 6-7 professional teams, instead of 4. The 4 old regions would be self funding from funds generated in the Aviva while the WRU could use it's own funds for the 2-3 new teams.
A single South Wales team playing each week at the Millenium stadium would be awesome!

Because you don't have the player base to have 6-7 teams. You'd have all four regions holding on to the players they have and then three teams starting from scratch with nothing. It would be the worst outcome for Welsh rugby.

Have 4 competitive teams in one league and not seven teams who aren't.

Anybody remember a couple of seasons back the Ospreys had a match postponed because they said on the grounds of health and safety they couldn't play a Welsh premiership prop in the Rabo?  A couple of injured props and they had to postpone a game.

This 7 or 8 Welsh teams talk is absolute pie in the sky.  There aren't nearly enough Welsh players of the quality required for that many teams, not least of all when a lot of their best are in France.

I'm not for a moment suggesting that all these players would be Welsh. But if the WRU were to fund 2-3 teams on their own and let the English system fund 4 teams then it would be possible.

As I always say there are actually 40 weeks in a season, and 42 or 43 weeks if you include the 2-3 weeks of pre-season friendlies. In theory you could have a 22 team league playing one game a week (42 weeks) within the current season and not have any additional problems.

Shifty wrote:I'm not for a moment suggesting that all these players would be Welsh.  But if the WRU were to fund 2-3 teams on their own and let the English system fund 4 teams then it would be possible.  

As I always say there are actually 40 weeks in a season, and 42 or 43 weeks if you include the 2-3 weeks of pre-season friendlies.  In theory you could have a 22 team league playing one game a week (42 weeks) within the current season and not have any additional problems.  

And that's why it won't happen. Can you honestly see the PRL keeping that up. Effectively subsidising welsh rugby for the sake of a few extra fixtures.

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Shifty wrote:I'm not for a moment suggesting that all these players would be Welsh.  But if the WRU were to fund 2-3 teams on their own and let the English system fund 4 teams then it would be possible.  

As I always say there are actually 40 weeks in a season, and 42 or 43 weeks if you include the 2-3 weeks of pre-season friendlies.  In theory you could have a 22 team league playing one game a week (42 weeks) within the current season and not have any additional problems.  

And that's why it won't happen. Can you honestly see the PRL keeping that up. Effectively subsidising welsh rugby for the sake of a few extra fixtures.

I white elephant that is the anglo welsh league wont suddenly fix all the regions problems. They will still loose players to England and France. Ask Newcastle if it stops the play drain being in the Jeff. Also as we see with Flood France is where people go who don't see a chance with England so top welsh players will still go to France.

Brendan wrote:I white elephant that is the anglo welsh league wont suddenly fix all the regions problems.  They will still loose players to England and France.  Ask Newcastle if it stops the play drain being in the Jeff.  Also as we see with Flood France is where people go who don't see a chance with England so top welsh players will still go to France.

The English need more games to fill the void left by leaving Europe. If you wanted to increase your games would it be more attractive to add the 4 top teams in the English championship in this case London Welsh, London Scottish, Bristol and Rotherham. Or is it better to include the Welsh regions with all their internationals and potentially open u a new market for your product to expand into?
And it's not as if the English and Welsh have to travel far to play each other is it?

Wales joining the English makes sense geographically, they are the only country we are land locked too. Economically it makes sense, we'd get more money for playing in their league and we'd benefit from huge amounts of away supporters. Bristol brought bus loads of suporters to the recent B&I cup game against Aberavon. There are always lots of away supporters at LV games, far more than at pro12 games.

If we are to look at a B&I league then a NFL style model could be followed. 6 divisions wherein the winners all go through along with the 2 best placed losers. How they decide the fixtures each year would be difficult and some schedules in the Nfl are more difficult than others but matches against your divisional rival are every year.

It would solve a representation issue in terms of later stages although an Irish division which could only yield two team maximum might not be desirable for the IRFU given they have 3 strong provinces. Similarly if Leicester and saints were in a similar division. Logistically it would be difficult but it you'll mean every game is vital and potentially a sellout

I should add I probably haven't explained it well but anyone who follows Nfl will understand the premise

Artful_Dodger wrote:Anybody remember a couple of seasons back the Ospreys had a match postponed because they said on the grounds of health and safety they couldn't play a Welsh premiership prop in the Rabo?  A couple of injured props and they had to postpone a game.

.

I do but the reason given was a lie.
They had allowed a number of players to go on holiday and had no intention of fulfilling the fixture.

The player in question was for the bench and had as much as Cronin and Macklin who were at Ulster at the time

geoff999rugby wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:Anybody remember a couple of seasons back the Ospreys had a match postponed because they said on the grounds of health and safety they couldn't play a Welsh premiership prop in the Rabo?  A couple of injured props and they had to postpone a game.

.

I do but the reason given was a lie.
They had allowed a number of players to go on holiday and had no intention of fulfilling the fixture.

The player in question was for the bench and had as much as Cronin and Macklin who were at Ulster at the time

Come on now. They're the "one true region" (c). They wouldn't have done that.

Its Panto Time

Oh yes they did

Risca Rev wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:Anybody remember a couple of seasons back the Ospreys had a match postponed because they said on the grounds of health and safety they couldn't play a Welsh premiership prop in the Rabo?  A couple of injured props and they had to postpone a game.

.

I do but the reason given was a lie.
They had allowed a number of players to go on holiday and had no intention of fulfilling the fixture.

The player in question was for the bench and had as much as Cronin and Macklin who were at Ulster at the time

Come on now. They're the "one true region" (c). They wouldn't have done that.

There was a wee bit more to it than that, the original game was postponed due to weather, and there was something about there being a choice of dates, none of which suited Ospreys (I think it was as Geoff said they had given their players a Holiday) and on the selected date they used the prop excuse to try to have the game postponed again.

Allty wrote:Its Panto Time

Oh yes they did

Always is Panto time in Wales, mun.

Kingshu wrote:

Risca Rev wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:Anybody remember a couple of seasons back the Ospreys had a match postponed because they said on the grounds of health and safety they couldn't play a Welsh premiership prop in the Rabo?  A couple of injured props and they had to postpone a game.

.

I do but the reason given was a lie.
They had allowed a number of players to go on holiday and had no intention of fulfilling the fixture.

The player in question was for the bench and had as much as Cronin and Macklin who were at Ulster at the time

Come on now. They're the "one true region" (c). They wouldn't have done that.

There was a wee bit more to it than that, the original game was postponed due to weather, and there was something about there being a choice of dates, none of which suited Ospreys (I think it was as Geoff said they had given their players a Holiday) and on the selected date they used the prop excuse to try to have the game postponed again.

One of the main reasons they wanted to change the date, which was during the international window, is that for some bizarre reason in Wales the U20s take precedence over the regions. In Ireland, that would never happen. But then the U20s are their, ahem, "A team". Just another longstanding part of the grudge that threatens to tear the Pro12 apart and set professional rugby in Wales back several years.

They never had any intention of fulfilling the fixture and the handling of it still leaves a sour taste in the mouth. No points were docked, only a fine imposed.

If it was for the U20 then it has nothing to do with the Ospreys. The WRU can called up U20 when they want. Another plus to union control.

HammerofThunor wrote:If it was for the U20 then it has nothing to do with the Ospreys. The WRU can called up U20 when they want. Another plus to union control.

And the 7s squad.

Standulstermen wrote:If we are to look at a B&I league then a NFL style model could be followed. 6 divisions wherein the winners all go through along with the 2 best placed losers. How they decide the fixtures each year would be difficult and some schedules in the Nfl are more difficult than others but matches against your divisional rival are every year.

It would solve a representation issue in terms of later stages although an Irish division which could only yield two team maximum might not be desirable for the IRFU given they have 3 strong provinces. Similarly if Leicester and saints were in a similar division. Logistically it would be difficult but it you'll mean every game is vital and potentially a sellout

I should add I probably haven't explained it well but anyone who follows Nfl will understand the premise

This is by far the best idea and one I posted and was ignored for on page 1 of this topic.

6 conferences of 4 teams, wales, ireland, the north, midlands, west, and east for example. Each team plays home and away against teams in their own conference (6 games) and 1 team from every other conference home and away (10 games). Maybe throw in a final judgement day double header to decide each conference too as extra money spinner. 17 games of regular season then playoffs and final.

When people say 17-20 games for a season isn't enough, just imagine if your club/team/region/province didn't have to rotate, always sent their 1st team for every game. Matches would be better, attendances higher and there would be no club v country disputes as it could all be well balanced. When internationals are on a developmental tournament could be played maybe?