What Is Going On In Wales Pt.2

Intotouch wrote:Hello knowledgeable Welsh friends. I've read some extraordinary things lately about the war between the regions and the union in Wales, but being an outsider, and not following this closely for years I'm not sure what's real and what's nonsense. Can someone please help clarify a few things for me?

1. I read that the WRU have a deal with the regions that they will each be given the same amount of money annually by the union for the next five years. This was interpreted by some as the union deciding to slowly let the regions go bust so they can set up new regions that they would own. Is this really the case?  It sounds completely crazy to me! Wouldn't this be a disaster in Welsh rugby and couldn't they try to buy the regions instead since they have more money now? Could this really be a plan?

2. The WRU is making a profit and with the millenium stadium paid off should have plenty of money to splash about in the future. (Or do they?) As they won't give more money to the regions this suggests that they want the regions to founder (see above).

3. Although the WRU pay millions to the regions annually they have little or no say in how they are run so are deeply frustrated with the regions. Also the regions can't stand the WRU even though they're keeping them afloat. Is this true and why?

4. The WRU offered central contracts to the players in the regions but the regions rejected this. Even though they would have a smaller wage bill if it went ahead. Why?
The regions have the lowest salary cap in Europe and keep losing their best players. But the regions won't let the WRU pay the internationals out of a central contract. As players have to be released anyway to play for Wales I don't see why the clubs wouldn't be delighted to do this. Are they afraid that they would lose them to too many training camps? I don't follow the logic of this. If the WRU paid the players then surely the regions would be able to keep more of their best players playing in Wales which surely would benefit them as they'd have stronger teams. Again I don't get why this is such a problem.

(Please don't include the possible move to the AP on this thread. It's being debated elsewhere.)

Chunky Norwich wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Allty wrote:
In the same way that any respectable successful business does.

Have a read g'boi:

http://www.regionalrugbywales.com/q-a/

RRW is fighting for its Regions to have the right to control their own destiny. In an ever-changing landscape, it is crucial that, as independent, privately owned businesses, they are able to negotiate for themselves what competitions they play in and what revenue they can generate. On any objective level, it is difficult to comprehend why this should be controversial.

But they're not, right?  Isn't that the point?  They want to behave like them, but they're stuck in a sort of half-way house?

No they are. But they are unfortunately earmarked for destruction by the very people who have been put in place to support them.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:The Irish know everything. They have all the solutions.

Chunky, they don't, nor have they claimed to, to my knowledge, nor has anyone else on their behalf - however, they do appear to have one model that appears to be working fairly well, perhapss something could be learned from it by those countries where things aren't quite so rosy? ie Scotland, Wales, etc.

Tell you what does make me laugh tho, its the number of rugby fans that have suddenly become sports BUSINESS experts overnight!  All that wasted talent, who knew?!   

 
Sorry, but 'they're alright, let's just copy what they're doing', is just nonsense.

Stone, why are you averse to learning even 'something', no matter how small, from a model and structure, etc., that appears to have worked?  Would that not be the intelligent thing to do?  Of course, nobody is pretending that it would provide the entire solution, but let's honest, even small increments in the right direction would be welcome, surely?

Well, for starters, Ireland isn't totally reliant on the huge economy bolted on to it's eastern seaboard, is it?  

How are 'models and structures' going to effect that?

Hmm, hadn't heard that one before - but are you saying that part of the problem with Welsh rugby is the state of the Welsh economy or the Welsh economy relative to the UK?  Has the Irish economy not been in worse shape in fact?

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

I'm not sure how you can use 'independent' and 'support' in the same sentence when describing the Welsh regions, Chunky? Either they are independent and require no support, or they're not independent and require support - if the latter is true, as I suspect, then the situation is a lot more complicated that you would like to paint it.  And perhaps those that have 'earmarked (them) for destruction' have simply decided that they're not the right vehicles to take the game forward in Wales, which is their right?

Chunky Norwich wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

I'm not sure how you can use 'independent' and 'support' in the same sentence when describing the Welsh regions, Chunky? Either they are independent and require no support, or they're not independent and require support - if the latter is true, as I suspect, then the situation is a lot more complicated that you would like to paint it.  And perhaps those that have 'earmarked (them) for destruction' have simply decided that they're not the right vehicles to take the game forward in Wales, which is their right?

It is nobody's right to try and destroy privately owned businesses. The fact that you think this is ok, gives us an insight into your morals.

Of course you can be independent and require support. What planet do you live on where this is exclusive? And of course, in sport - the level of "support" isn't restricted to just finance.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Chunky, you/we may not like how the WRU are going about their mission, but if they genuinely felt that the existing regions were no longer serving their purpose, then don't they have a responsibility to Welsh rugby to replace them with something that does?  Is that not within their remit?  You're all very keen to talk 'business', well guess what, that's what happens in a commercial world.  Now whether there should be compensation or whatever, who knows?  

Perhaps, radically, they could all decide to work together to fix the problem? (altho no doubt you think that's what the regions have been trying to do and it's all one-way traffic?)

Chunky Norwich wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Chunky, you/we may not like how the WRU are going about their mission, but if they genuinely felt that the existing regions were no longer serving their purpose, then don't they have a responsibility to Welsh rugby to replace them with something that does?  Is that not within their remit?  You're all very keen to talk 'business', well guess what, that's what happens in a commercial world.  Now whether there should be compensation or whatever, who knows?  

No, of course it's not within their remit. Because they are not centrally controlled. They are businesses. They would have done it 5 years ago if they could. Instead they've gone down the "death by a thousand cuts" route. Slowly, more painful and more damaging to everyone involved.

it would be more likely to happen in Ireland. As the IRFU technically own the provinces. And of course were the IRFU to shut down Munster and Ulster indefinitely, then the fans of those 2 teams would have no opposition to that plan. Because they want what's best for the good of the game.

Perhaps, radically, they could all decide to work together to fix the problem? (altho no doubt you think that's what the regions have been trying to do and it's all one-way traffic?)

Anybody who has half an eye on the situation can see the amount of willingness on each side.

"The WRU never negotiate through the media"

FFS.

Munchkin wrote:["They have no control over their players" Not true.


"They have no control over their signings"  Not true.

Munchkin wrote:"They have no control over their branding" You would need to explain this one in a bit more detail.

Munchkin wrote: "They have no control over their main income streams" True, but then that's what they signed up for.

Munchkin wrote: "They have no control over the crap, unattractive league they play in" Not true. They can go away and play with themselves, or more practically, put more effort into making the Rabo more attractive by being more competitive. Also, it might help if the RRW, and some of their supporters, would stop attempting to tarnish the reputation of Rabo by whining about it so much. A genuine cliche for you; - 'you only get out what you put in'.

Munchkin wrote: "They are not allowed to arrange extra fixtures" Then make the best of what they have. If the extra fixtures are to help fund the regions then maybe they should really be focusing more on attracting more support. Bums on seats.

Munchkin wrote: "They are expressly told not to develop relationships with their own premier teams" What have WRU specifically stated about that?

Munchkin wrote: "Their own union tries to out-compete them for contracts" The WRU daring to pay fully for some of the regions players in order to keep them in the regions, and playing for Wales. Scandalous I say!

Munchkin wrote: "Their own union subsidises their Irish and Scottish competitors in the above crap league to their expense"   

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Wales, at a wild guess?  But if you are looking at bigger markets, then the UK or perhaps Europe (except they have their own biscuits so the Welsh variety might not be so popular comparatively)?  Will the 5th Welsh region be named the Biscuits?

Stone Motif wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:The Irish know everything. They have all the solutions.

Chunky, they don't, nor have they claimed to, to my knowledge, nor has anyone else on their behalf - however, they do appear to have one model that appears to be working fairly well, perhapss something could be learned from it by those countries where things aren't quite so rosy? ie Scotland, Wales, etc.

Tell you what does make me laugh tho, its the number of rugby fans that have suddenly become sports BUSINESS experts overnight!  All that wasted talent, who knew?!   

 
Sorry, but 'they're alright, let's just copy what they're doing', is just nonsense.

Stone, why are you averse to learning even 'something', no matter how small, from a model and structure, etc., that appears to have worked?  Would that not be the intelligent thing to do?  Of course, nobody is pretending that it would provide the entire solution, but let's honest, even small increments in the right direction would be welcome, surely?

Well, for starters, Ireland isn't totally reliant on the huge economy bolted on to it's eastern seaboard, is it?  

How are 'models and structures' going to effect that?

Hmm, hadn't heard that one before - but are you saying that part of the problem with Welsh rugby is the state of the Welsh economy or the Welsh economy relative to the UK?  Has the Irish economy not been in worse shape in fact?

Put it this way.  You open a biscuit factory in Wales.  Where do you reckon you could successfully sell the most biscuits?

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Chunky, you/we may not like how the WRU are going about their mission, but if they genuinely felt that the existing regions were no longer serving their purpose, then don't they have a responsibility to Welsh rugby to replace them with something that does?  Is that not within their remit?  You're all very keen to talk 'business', well guess what, that's what happens in a commercial world.  Now whether there should be compensation or whatever, who knows?  

No, of course it's not within their remit. Because they are not centrally controlled. They are businesses. They would have done it 5 years ago if they could. Instead they've gone down the "death by a thousand cuts" route. Slowly, more painful and more damaging to everyone involved.

it would be more likely to happen in Ireland. As the IRFU technically own the provinces. And of course were the IRFU to shut down Munster and Ulster indefinitely, then the fans of those 2 teams would have no opposition to that plan. Because they want what's best for the good of the game.

Perhaps, radically, they could all decide to work together to fix the problem? (altho no doubt you think that's what the regions have been trying to do and it's all one-way traffic?)

Anybody who has half an eye on the situation can see the amount of willingness on each side.

"The WRU never negotiate through the media"

FFS.

I'm sorry, Chunky, I'm still not getting it, so bear with me - the regions are independent businesses operating in a commercial world, according to you?  In return for providing a product to the WRU, they receive remuneration.  In the brutal commercial world, if the WRU decided that that product is no longer up to scratch, then the harsh reality is that they can substitute it for a new one - that is called business

Stone Motif wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Wales, at a wild guess?  But if you are looking at bigger markets, then the UK or perhaps Europe (except they have their own biscuits so the Welsh variety might not be so popular comparatively)?  Will the 5th Welsh region be named the Biscuits?

 
Yeah.  Let's flog biscuits to the Welsh   They've got no money, only like biscuits really come February/World Cup time, and chuck them back on the shelf if they don't say 'Pontypridd' on the wrappers.  Plus they can get biscuits for free courtesy of the biscuit regulation authority.

Griff wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Chunky, you/we may not like how the WRU are going about their mission, but if they genuinely felt that the existing regions were no longer serving their purpose, then don't they have a responsibility to Welsh rugby to replace them with something that does?  Is that not within their remit?  You're all very keen to talk 'business', well guess what, that's what happens in a commercial world.  Now whether there should be compensation or whatever, who knows?  

No, of course it's not within their remit. Because they are not centrally controlled. They are businesses. They would have done it 5 years ago if they could. Instead they've gone down the "death by a thousand cuts" route. Slowly, more painful and more damaging to everyone involved.

it would be more likely to happen in Ireland. As the IRFU technically own the provinces. And of course were the IRFU to shut down Munster and Ulster indefinitely, then the fans of those 2 teams would have no opposition to that plan. Because they want what's best for the good of the game.

Perhaps, radically, they could all decide to work together to fix the problem? (altho no doubt you think that's what the regions have been trying to do and it's all one-way traffic?)

Anybody who has half an eye on the situation can see the amount of willingness on each side.

"The WRU never negotiate through the media"

FFS.

I'm sorry, Chunky, I'm still not getting it, so bear with me - the regions are independent businesses operating in a commercial world, according to you?  In return for providing a product to the WRU, they receive remuneration.  In the brutal commercial world, if the WRU decided that that product is no longer up to scratch, then the harsh reality is that they can substitute it for a new one - that is called business

What renumration do the regions receive from the WRU, As?

Stone Motif wrote:

Munchkin wrote:["They have no control over their players" Not true.


"They have no control over their signings"  Not true.

 
Er, right.  That'll be someone else who needs union ratification on any signings, has a proportion of mediocre, over-expensive home grown players foisted on it, and has their major assets stolen at crucial times of the season only to be renumerated at below the going rate.
 
 

Munchkin wrote:"They have no control over their branding" You would need to explain this one in a bit more detail.

See last ten years of WRU-foisted faux-regional nonsense.
 
 

Munchkin wrote: "They have no control over their main income streams" True, but then that's what they signed up for.

Jesus Christ.
 
 

Munchkin wrote: "They have no control over the crap, unattractive league they play in" Not true. They can go away and play with themselves, or more practically, put more effort into making the Rabo more attractive by being more competitive. Also, it might help if the RRW, and some of their supporters, would stop attempting to tarnish the reputation of Rabo by whining about it so much. A genuine cliche for you; - 'you only get out what you put in'.

 
The Rabo hamstrings it's participants by its nature - a logistical nightmare, unattractive to fans because there are no traditional rivalries with the other teams, no away support, and little growth opportunity in terms of keeping up with the French and English markets.  The Ospreys winning the lousy thing four times has not helped Osprey fans think any better of it.  A more apt cliche for you - 'you can't polish a turd'.
 
 

Munchkin wrote: "They are not allowed to arrange extra fixtures" Then make the best of what they have. If the extra fixtures are to help fund the regions then maybe they should really be focusing more on attracting more support. Bums on seats.

I know you like to miss the point on this one, but making the best of what they have is not enough to make them sustainable.  They need to reach wider markets than exist in Wales and the other Celtic nations in order to survive.  There aren't enough bums in Wales to put on seats to remain viable.
 
 

Munchkin wrote: "They are expressly told not to develop relationships with their own premier teams" What have WRU specifically stated about that?

Andrew Hore said the O's were expressly told not to do this and neither His Rogness nor his pet media have made any effort to contradict him.  For the  WRU to have never quantified what being a 'region' entails alone speaks volumes.
 
 

Munchkin wrote: "Their own union tries to out-compete them for contracts" The WRU daring to pay fully for some of the regions players in order to keep them in the regions, and playing for Wales. Scandalous I say!

They could have kept Sam in Wales by topping up the contract tabled for him by the Blues, for a fraction of the cost.  Let's not forget here that every additional pound that went into bloodying the Blues nose on that little media stunt is a pound not being spent on tackle bags and kit for young kids at clubs across Wales.  How this debacle reflects badly on anyone but Rog is beyond me.
 
 

Munchkin wrote: "Their own union subsidises their Irish and Scottish competitors in the above crap league to their expense"   

 Do the sums then mush.  Think you'll find it's the Irish and the Scots who are 

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Griff wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Chunky, you/we may not like how the WRU are going about their mission, but if they genuinely felt that the existing regions were no longer serving their purpose, then don't they have a responsibility to Welsh rugby to replace them with something that does?  Is that not within their remit?  You're all very keen to talk 'business', well guess what, that's what happens in a commercial world.  Now whether there should be compensation or whatever, who knows?  

No, of course it's not within their remit. Because they are not centrally controlled. They are businesses. They would have done it 5 years ago if they could. Instead they've gone down the "death by a thousand cuts" route. Slowly, more painful and more damaging to everyone involved.

it would be more likely to happen in Ireland. As the IRFU technically own the provinces. And of course were the IRFU to shut down Munster and Ulster indefinitely, then the fans of those 2 teams would have no opposition to that plan. Because they want what's best for the good of the game.

Perhaps, radically, they could all decide to work together to fix the problem? (altho no doubt you think that's what the regions have been trying to do and it's all one-way traffic?)

Anybody who has half an eye on the situation can see the amount of willingness on each side.

"The WRU never negotiate through the media"

FFS.

I'm sorry, Chunky, I'm still not getting it, so bear with me - the regions are independent businesses operating in a commercial world, according to you?  In return for providing a product to the WRU, they receive remuneration.  In the brutal commercial world, if the WRU decided that that product is no longer up to scratch, then the harsh reality is that they can substitute it for a new one - that is called business

What renumration do the regions receive from the WRU, As?

Hmm, as I understand it the WRU own the media rights, so any income from that source comes via the WRU - that is what I mean by remuneration

Griff wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Griff wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Chunky, you/we may not like how the WRU are going about their mission, but if they genuinely felt that the existing regions were no longer serving their purpose, then don't they have a responsibility to Welsh rugby to replace them with something that does?  Is that not within their remit?  You're all very keen to talk 'business', well guess what, that's what happens in a commercial world.  Now whether there should be compensation or whatever, who knows?  

No, of course it's not within their remit. Because they are not centrally controlled. They are businesses. They would have done it 5 years ago if they could. Instead they've gone down the "death by a thousand cuts" route. Slowly, more painful and more damaging to everyone involved.

it would be more likely to happen in Ireland. As the IRFU technically own the provinces. And of course were the IRFU to shut down Munster and Ulster indefinitely, then the fans of those 2 teams would have no opposition to that plan. Because they want what's best for the good of the game.

Perhaps, radically, they could all decide to work together to fix the problem? (altho no doubt you think that's what the regions have been trying to do and it's all one-way traffic?)

Anybody who has half an eye on the situation can see the amount of willingness on each side.

"The WRU never negotiate through the media"

FFS.

I'm sorry, Chunky, I'm still not getting it, so bear with me - the regions are independent businesses operating in a commercial world, according to you?  In return for providing a product to the WRU, they receive remuneration.  In the brutal commercial world, if the WRU decided that that product is no longer up to scratch, then the harsh reality is that they can substitute it for a new one - that is called business

What remuneration do the regions receive from the WRU, As?

Hmm, as I understand it the WRU own the media rights, so any income from that source comes via the WRU - that is what I mean by remuneration

Isn't that the same as in England though?  So would the RFU then be able to 'shut down' the Exeter Chiefs business, for example, if they wanted to???  Or is that different?

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

I'm sorry, Chunky, I'm still not getting it, so bear with me - the regions are independent businesses operating in a commercial world, according to you?  In return for providing a product to the WRU, they receive remuneration.  In the brutal commercial world, if the WRU decided that that product is no longer up to scratch, then the harsh reality is that they can substitute it for a new one - that is called business

Munchkin wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

Munchkin wrote:["They have no control over their players" Not true.


"They have no control over their signings"  Not true.

 
Er, right.  That'll be someone else who needs union ratification on any signings, has a proportion of mediocre, over-expensive home grown players foisted on it, and has their major assets stolen at crucial times of the season only to be renumerated at below the going rate.
 
 

Munchkin wrote:"They have no control over their branding" You would need to explain this one in a bit more detail.

See last ten years of WRU-foisted faux-regional nonsense.
 
 

Munchkin wrote: "They have no control over their main income streams" True, but then that's what they signed up for.

Jesus Christ.
 
 

Munchkin wrote: "They have no control over the crap, unattractive league they play in" Not true. They can go away and play with themselves, or more practically, put more effort into making the Rabo more attractive by being more competitive. Also, it might help if the RRW, and some of their supporters, would stop attempting to tarnish the reputation of Rabo by whining about it so much. A genuine cliche for you; - 'you only get out what you put in'.

 
The Rabo hamstrings it's participants by its nature - a logistical nightmare, unattractive to fans because there are no traditional rivalries with the other teams, no away support, and little growth opportunity in terms of keeping up with the French and English markets.  The Ospreys winning the lousy thing four times has not helped Osprey fans think any better of it.  A more apt cliche for you - 'you can't polish a turd'.
 
 

Munchkin wrote: "They are not allowed to arrange extra fixtures" Then make the best of what they have. If the extra fixtures are to help fund the regions then maybe they should really be focusing more on attracting more support. Bums on seats.

I know you like to miss the point on this one, but making the best of what they have is not enough to make them sustainable.  They need to reach wider markets than exist in Wales and the other Celtic nations in order to survive.  There aren't enough bums in Wales to put on seats to remain viable.
 
 

Munchkin wrote: "They are expressly told not to develop relationships with their own premier teams" What have WRU specifically stated about that?

Andrew Hore said the O's were expressly told not to do this and neither His Rogness nor his pet media have made any effort to contradict him.  For the  WRU to have never quantified what being a 'region' entails alone speaks volumes.
 
 

Munchkin wrote: "Their own union tries to out-compete them for contracts" The WRU daring to pay fully for some of the regions players in order to keep them in the regions, and playing for Wales. Scandalous I say!

They could have kept Sam in Wales by topping up the contract tabled for him by the Blues, for a fraction of the cost.  Let's not forget here that every additional pound that went into bloodying the Blues nose on that little media stunt is a pound not being spent on tackle bags and kit for young kids at clubs across Wales.  How this debacle reflects badly on anyone but Rog is beyond me.
 
 

Munchkin wrote: "Their own union subsidises their Irish and Scottish competitors in the above crap league to their expense"   

 Do the sums then mush.  Think you'll find it's the Irish and the Scots who are 

At crucial times? You mean crucial times for their assets to be playing for their national team? Do the WRU actually steal these assets, or is it not that the regions are contractually obliged to release them? I think you made the 'stolen' thing up. Be honest   
How would the players themselves react to the regions business men not releasing them to Wales training camps? Think the regions would struggle to sign quite a few players.

I will reply to the remainder of your points later. Bit busy  

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
I think the RFU has delegated that power (at least for the time being) to the PRL, so no, I don't believe so.  BTW, I'm not saying that I agree with it, just pointing out that the way the 'market' is structured in Wales right now dictates to a large extent where the power lies

wayne wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

Munchkin wrote:["They have no control over their players" Not true.


"They have no control over their signings"  Not true.

 
Er, right.  That'll be someone else who needs union ratification on any signings, has a proportion of mediocre, over-expensive home grown players foisted on it, and has their major assets stolen at crucial times of the season only to be renumerated at below the going rate.
 
 

Munchkin wrote:"They have no control over their branding" You would need to explain this one in a bit more detail.

See last ten years of WRU-foisted faux-regional nonsense.
 
 

Munchkin wrote: "They have no control over their main income streams" True, but then that's what they signed up for.

Jesus Christ.
 
 

Munchkin wrote: "They have no control over the crap, unattractive league they play in" Not true. They can go away and play with themselves, or more practically, put more effort into making the Rabo more attractive by being more competitive. Also, it might help if the RRW, and some of their supporters, would stop attempting to tarnish the reputation of Rabo by whining about it so much. A genuine cliche for you; - 'you only get out what you put in'.

 
The Rabo hamstrings it's participants by its nature - a logistical nightmare, unattractive to fans because there are no traditional rivalries with the other teams, no away support, and little growth opportunity in terms of keeping up with the French and English markets.  The Ospreys winning the lousy thing four times has not helped Osprey fans think any better of it.  A more apt cliche for you - 'you can't polish a turd'.
 
 

Munchkin wrote: "They are not allowed to arrange extra fixtures" Then make the best of what they have. If the extra fixtures are to help fund the regions then maybe they should really be focusing more on attracting more support. Bums on seats.

I know you like to miss the point on this one, but making the best of what they have is not enough to make them sustainable.  They need to reach wider markets than exist in Wales and the other Celtic nations in order to survive.  There aren't enough bums in Wales to put on seats to remain viable.
 
 

Munchkin wrote: "They are expressly told not to develop relationships with their own premier teams" What have WRU specifically stated about that?

Andrew Hore said the O's were expressly told not to do this and neither His Rogness nor his pet media have made any effort to contradict him.  For the  WRU to have never quantified what being a 'region' entails alone speaks volumes.
 
 

Munchkin wrote: "Their own union tries to out-compete them for contracts" The WRU daring to pay fully for some of the regions players in order to keep them in the regions, and playing for Wales. Scandalous I say!

They could have kept Sam in Wales by topping up the contract tabled for him by the Blues, for a fraction of the cost.  Let's not forget here that every additional pound that went into bloodying the Blues nose on that little media stunt is a pound not being spent on tackle bags and kit for young kids at clubs across Wales.  How this debacle reflects badly on anyone but Rog is beyond me.
 
 

Munchkin wrote: "Their own union subsidises their Irish and Scottish competitors in the above crap league to their expense"   

 Do the sums then mush.  Think you'll find it's the Irish and the Scots who are 

At crucial times? You mean crucial times for their assets to be playing for their national team? Do the WRU actually steal these assets, or is it not that the regions are contractually obliged to release them? I think you made the 'stolen' thing up. Be honest   
How would the players themselves react to the regions business men not releasing them to Wales training camps? Think the regions would struggle to sign quite a few players.

I will reply to the remainder of your points later. Bit busy  

To your final point, why not take the whole weekend, do some proper Research and you'll very likely come to a very different conclusion.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Wales, at a wild guess?  But if you are looking at bigger markets, then the UK or perhaps Europe (except they have their own biscuits so the Welsh variety might not be so popular comparatively)?  Will the 5th Welsh region be named the Biscuits?

 
Yeah.  Let's flog biscuits to the Welsh   They've got no money, only like biscuits really come February/World Cup time, and chuck them back on the shelf if they don't say 'Pontypridd' on the wrappers.  Plus they can get biscuits for free courtesy of the biscuit regulation authority.

So the Welsh can't afford biscuits and the other markets have their own biscuits that they prefer?  Time to find something else to manufacture?

Munchkin wrote:

wayne wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

Munchkin wrote:["They have no control over their players" Not true.


"They have no control over their signings"  Not true.

 
Er, right.  That'll be someone else who needs union ratification on any signings, has a proportion of mediocre, over-expensive home grown players foisted on it, and has their major assets stolen at crucial times of the season only to be renumerated at below the going rate.
 
 

Munchkin wrote:"They have no control over their branding" You would need to explain this one in a bit more detail.

See last ten years of WRU-foisted faux-regional nonsense.
 
 

Munchkin wrote: "They have no control over their main income streams" True, but then that's what they signed up for.

Jesus Christ.
 
 

Munchkin wrote: "They have no control over the crap, unattractive league they play in" Not true. They can go away and play with themselves, or more practically, put more effort into making the Rabo more attractive by being more competitive. Also, it might help if the RRW, and some of their supporters, would stop attempting to tarnish the reputation of Rabo by whining about it so much. A genuine cliche for you; - 'you only get out what you put in'.

 
The Rabo hamstrings it's participants by its nature - a logistical nightmare, unattractive to fans because there are no traditional rivalries with the other teams, no away support, and little growth opportunity in terms of keeping up with the French and English markets.  The Ospreys winning the lousy thing four times has not helped Osprey fans think any better of it.  A more apt cliche for you - 'you can't polish a turd'.
 
 

Munchkin wrote: "They are not allowed to arrange extra fixtures" Then make the best of what they have. If the extra fixtures are to help fund the regions then maybe they should really be focusing more on attracting more support. Bums on seats.

I know you like to miss the point on this one, but making the best of what they have is not enough to make them sustainable.  They need to reach wider markets than exist in Wales and the other Celtic nations in order to survive.  There aren't enough bums in Wales to put on seats to remain viable.
 
 

Munchkin wrote: "They are expressly told not to develop relationships with their own premier teams" What have WRU specifically stated about that?

Andrew Hore said the O's were expressly told not to do this and neither His Rogness nor his pet media have made any effort to contradict him.  For the  WRU to have never quantified what being a 'region' entails alone speaks volumes.
 
 

Munchkin wrote: "Their own union tries to out-compete them for contracts" The WRU daring to pay fully for some of the regions players in order to keep them in the regions, and playing for Wales. Scandalous I say!

They could have kept Sam in Wales by topping up the contract tabled for him by the Blues, for a fraction of the cost.  Let's not forget here that every additional pound that went into bloodying the Blues nose on that little media stunt is a pound not being spent on tackle bags and kit for young kids at clubs across Wales.  How this debacle reflects badly on anyone but Rog is beyond me.
 
 

Munchkin wrote: "Their own union subsidises their Irish and Scottish competitors in the above crap league to their expense"   

 Do the sums then mush.  Think you'll find it's the Irish and the Scots who are 

At crucial times? You mean crucial times for their assets to be playing for their national team? Do the WRU actually steal these assets, or is it not that the regions are contractually obliged to release them? I think you made the 'stolen' thing up. Be honest   
How would the players themselves react to the regions business men not releasing them to Wales training camps? Think the regions would struggle to sign quite a few players.

I will reply to the remainder of your points later. Bit busy  

To your final point, why not take the whole weekend, do some proper Research and you'll very likely come to a very different conclusion.

You (T)rolling me, wayne?   

It's ok. I don't mind. By the way, 'proper Research' should read - proper research. Just need to drop the capital. Anything To Help  

Munchkin wrote: At crucial times? You mean crucial times for their assets to be playing for their national team? Do the WRU actually steal these assets, or is it not that the regions are contractually obliged to release them? I think you made the 'stolen' thing up. Be honest   
How would the players themselves react to the regions business men not releasing them to Wales training camps? Think the regions would struggle to sign quite a few players.

I will reply to the remainder of your points later. Bit busy  

Chunky Norwich wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

I'm sorry, Chunky, I'm still not getting it, so bear with me - the regions are independent businesses operating in a commercial world, according to you?  In return for providing a product to the WRU, they receive remuneration.  In the brutal commercial world, if the WRU decided that that product is no longer up to scratch, then the harsh reality is that they can substitute it for a new one - that is called business

You're very confused.

The product is the players. Why or how, would they substitute the players for new ones?

Stone Motif wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Wales, at a wild guess?  But if you are looking at bigger markets, then the UK or perhaps Europe (except they have their own biscuits so the Welsh variety might not be so popular comparatively)?  Will the 5th Welsh region be named the Biscuits?

 
Yeah.  Let's flog biscuits to the Welsh   They've got no money, only like biscuits really come February/World Cup time, and chuck them back on the shelf if they don't say 'Pontypridd' on the wrappers.  Plus they can get biscuits for free courtesy of the biscuit regulation authority.

So the Welsh can't afford biscuits and the other markets have their own biscuits that they prefer?  Time to find something else to manufacture?

As you mention it, Cardiff and Swansea wendyball crackers are going down a treat at the moment.  But who's to say that the English arent interested in Welsh biscuits, or heaven forbid the Welsh find them a bit more palatable than the crud we are subsidising to be brought over from Scotland and Ireland

Chunky Norwich wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
I think the RFU has delegated that power (at least for the time being) to the PRL, so no, I don't believe so.  BTW, I'm not saying that I agree with it, just pointing out that the way the 'market' is structured in Wales right now dictates to a large extent where the power lies

You think the PRL has the power to shut down Exeter Chiefs?

Vince McMahon wrote:
No, the product is the game - seemples, this is the sports entertainment business

Stone Motif wrote:

Vince McMahon wrote:
No, the product is the game - seemples, this is the sports entertainment business

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Wales, at a wild guess?  But if you are looking at bigger markets, then the UK or perhaps Europe (except they have their own biscuits so the Welsh variety might not be so popular comparatively)?  Will the 5th Welsh region be named the Biscuits?

 
Yeah.  Let's flog biscuits to the Welsh   They've got no money, only like biscuits really come February/World Cup time, and chuck them back on the shelf if they don't say 'Pontypridd' on the wrappers.  Plus they can get biscuits for free courtesy of the biscuit regulation authority.

So the Welsh can't afford biscuits and the other markets have their own biscuits that they prefer?  Time to find something else to manufacture?

As you mention it, Cardiff and Swansea wendyball crackers are going down a treat at the moment.  But who's to say that the English arent interested in Welsh biscuits, or heaven forbid the Welsh find them a bit more palatable than the crud we are subsidising to be brought over from Scotland and Ireland

Hmm, well looks like the English only wanted yer Welsh biscuits as a back-up plan in case they couldn't have any more of those fancy French biscuites?!  Maybe stick to cakes?

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

I'm sorry, Chunky, I'm still not getting it, so bear with me - the regions are independent businesses operating in a commercial world, according to you?  In return for providing a product to the WRU, they receive remuneration.  In the brutal commercial world, if the WRU decided that that product is no longer up to scratch, then the harsh reality is that they can substitute it for a new one - that is called business

You're very confused.

The product is the players. Why or how, would they substitute the players for new ones?

No, the product is the game - seemples, this is the sports entertainment business

Chunky Norwich wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

I'm sorry, Chunky, I'm still not getting it, so bear with me - the regions are independent businesses operating in a commercial world, according to you?  In return for providing a product to the WRU, they receive remuneration.  In the brutal commercial world, if the WRU decided that that product is no longer up to scratch, then the harsh reality is that they can substitute it for a new one - that is called business

You're very confused.

The product is the players. Why or how, would they substitute the players for new ones?

No, the product is the game - seemples, this is the sports entertainment business

In that case, the WRU can nominate a different 4 teams to provide a better product. If they really feel that's in their best interests. That'll go down well.

Please answer this - if the WRU wanted to "substitute the product for a new one, as it's no longer up to scratch" - then why did they just offer to extend the current participation agreement to the 4 regions  by another 5 years?

Munchkin wrote:by wayne Today at 12:45 pm

(T)rolling Nah, the Capital in Research is for your benefit to emphasise what you need to do, and you need to do plenty to understand what is going on within Welsh Rugby"

You did it again!   

Ok, so RESEARCH involves fact finding, and so you are telling me that you have more of the facts than I do. I can believe that as I really don't know many of the facts.

So then, educate me. Explain to me the facts, along with evidence to confirm these facts.

Not just made up stuff now. As someone who makes stuff up, myself, I can spot made up stuff immediately. So no made up stuff   

Ok.....GO!  

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

I'm not the WRU, obvs, so this would be my best guess - they're prepared to continue with the current arrangements (sub-standard product), but not to offer anything more in return?

wayne wrote:

Munchkin wrote:by wayne Today at 12:45 pm

(T)rolling Nah, the Capital in Research is for your benefit to emphasise what you need to do, and you need to do plenty to understand what is going on within Welsh Rugby"

You did it again!   

Ok, so RESEARCH involves fact finding, and so you are telling me that you have more of the facts than I do. I can believe that as I really don't know many of the facts.

So then, educate me. Explain to me the facts, along with evidence to confirm these facts.

Not just made up stuff now. As someone who makes stuff up, myself, I can spot made up stuff immediately. So no made up stuff   

Ok.....GO!  

So, nearly 700 posts, with you contributing I'd say about 50 or so and now you admit you were misinformed all along, and you want me to educate you, Nah, you go and do your own Research, let's see if you are at all capable of doing this to an acceptable standard, you don't have to start straight off I'll give you the weekend, I very much doubt you will though    

Stone Motif wrote:Meanwhile, back on the ranch.

https://2img.net/h/i1302.photobucket.com/albums/ag123/dlp121081/b5e6a5e0eee13863f2dfc59144cdaff7_zpse8bab293.jpg

Up yours, Roger, you pustule on the arse of Welsh rugby.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

I'm not the WRU, obvs, so this would be my best guess - they're prepared to continue with the current arrangements (sub-standard product), but not to offer anything more in return?

So they're happy with a  sub standard domestic product? As long as Wales are performing.

What an awesome way to run a sport.

Welshmushroom wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

I'm not the WRU, obvs, so this would be my best guess - they're prepared to continue with the current arrangements (sub-standard product), but not to offer anything more in return?

So they're happy with a  sub standard domestic product? As long as Wales are performing.

What an awesome way to run a sport.

Otherwise French teams would win the HC every year.

 

wayne wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:Meanwhile, back on the ranch.

https://2img.net/h/i1302.photobucket.com/albums/ag123/dlp121081/b5e6a5e0eee13863f2dfc59144cdaff7_zpse8bab293.jpg

Up yours, Roger, you pustule on the arse of Welsh rugby.

Stone, this article was posted on the Os website yesterday, the sooner he does the honourable thing the better, yet I will not be holding my breath, did you also see the article in the South Wales Evening Post, last Friday IIRC by Marc Orders, it was concerning the OFFER by the WRU of the £660000 to the Regions to help fill the gap in their finances, through the ERC witholding money owed to said Regions and all other teams, go and have a look at it, the article reinforces the argument that Lewis and Co should resign immediately, in actual fact the relevant facts were on the Os website 2 or 3 days earlier.  

Welshmushroom wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

I'm not the WRU, obvs, so this would be my best guess - they're prepared to continue with the current arrangements (sub-standard product), but not to offer anything more in return?

So they're happy with a  sub standard domestic product? As long as Wales are performing.

What an awesome way to run a sport.

You make that sound as if its the WRU's responsibilty to create a professional domestic product.  It isnt.  If it where the regions wouldnt exist in the first place and the teams would already be umbrella body under the WRU.  

Funding is the only means the WRU have in terms of controlling the regions.  Like any business they in turn want more for their ROI.  Any business person would be the same.  

I think the real issue of our teams under performing is actually more to do with the fact that coaching and management of those coaches isnt up to scratch.  Take Leinster and Munster for example, they are always hiring some of the best head coaches in the game.  By contrast we hire people like Tandy (talented as he may be - he simply does not have the experience of top level coaching & selections).  I appreciate coaching has to start somewhere but the regions shouldnt be a development tool for coaches and managers (only for players).   For me thats the massive void between regional rugby and why they are not being successful against teams like Munster/Leinster/Ulster & Glasgow.  Bottom line people want a better product and their teams to play with some urgency.  The Blues for example have underperformed so many times I've lost count and they spend a darn side more than the Dragons, who I would argue are playing the more entertaining rugby.

I'd also question the way they tie their money up.  Take the Priestland fiasco for example.  Since the last World Cup he's been a bit hot & cold.  Scarlets however being desperate to keep him upped his wages significantly and he resigns.  Lets forget for a moment that Wasps & Gloucester would have offered him a starting spot in their team so it wouldnt have impacted his selection posssibilties for Wales.   The real question was the signing actually worth increasing your overheads for?  They could have signed Morgan from the Ospreys and he probably would have added to their running game and actually kept their costs down in the knowledge that they have Jordan Williams, Shingler & Thomas who can all do a job for them in that position.  Nope instead they opt for non of the above and consign the squad to 100K less in their budget for next year.  A total schambles and waste of money in my opinion.  

Thirdly I would also point to the failures of the Pro 12 (which the regions are a part of) because they have not actually sat round as a group of teams and discussed how they can improve the tournament.  For starters they should be copying the Aviva in terms of fixture rounds. Every Pro 12 weekend should have fixtures for all the teams involved.   The regions are to blame partly for this because of the Anglo Welsh cup which we can all agree is a total waste of time these days (in fact, how come they are still even competiting in this?).  Reffing standards need to improve with criteria being set on what kind of product the 12 participating teams are trying to achieve.  The whole process of the league requires each of its particpating teams to buy into the concept.  Instead the Welsh owners have stood by and just slagged off the Pro 12 and looked to get out of it. Again given they have nowhere to go, I failed to see the purpose of even upsetting the apple cart (and I dont mean the WRU but the Welsh/Scottish/Irish & Italian relations).  The Pro 12 has the potential to become a top competition but it wont happen by accident and certanly will require particiapation from each of its members (primarily the clubs/provinces/regions).

And no thats saying the WRU dont have a part to play in professional rugby but given the only real influence they can have is with regards to funding, the primary failing factors lie with the regions.  Granted not everyone see's it that way but given the regions have tried outspending teams before and still not managed to bring home success at european level, it is clear that money is not the over riding factor to success.  Otherwise French teams would win the HC every year.

 

Stone Motif wrote:You make that sound as if its the WRU's responsibilty to create a professional domestic product.  It isnt.  If it where the regions wouldnt exist in the first place and the teams would already be umbrella body under the WRU.  

Funding is the only means the WRU have in terms of controlling the regions.  Like any business they in turn want more for their ROI.  Any business person would be the same.  

I think the real issue of our teams under performing is actually more to do with the fact that coaching and management of those coaches isnt up to scratch.  Take Leinster and Munster for example, they are always hiring some of the best head coaches in the game.  By contrast we hire people like Tandy (talented as he may be - he simply does not have the experience of top level coaching & selections).  I appreciate coaching has to start somewhere but the regions shouldnt be a development tool for coaches and managers (only for players).   For me thats the massive void between regional rugby and why they are not being successful against teams like Munster/Leinster/Ulster & Glasgow.  Bottom line people want a better product and their teams to play with some urgency.  The Blues for example have underperformed so many times I've lost count and they spend a darn side more than the Dragons, who I would argue are playing the more entertaining rugby.

I'd also question the way they tie their money up.  Take the Priestland fiasco for example.  Since the last World Cup he's been a bit hot & cold.  Scarlets however being desperate to keep him upped his wages significantly and he resigns.  Lets forget for a moment that Wasps & Gloucester would have offered him a starting spot in their team so it wouldnt have impacted his selection posssibilties for Wales.   The real question was the signing actually worth increasing your overheads for?  They could have signed Morgan from the Ospreys and he probably would have added to their running game and actually kept their costs down in the knowledge that they have Jordan Williams, Shingler & Thomas who can all do a job for them in that position.  Nope instead they opt for non of the above and consign the squad to 100K less in their budget for next year.  A total schambles and waste of money in my opinion.  

Thirdly I would also point to the failures of the Pro 12 (which the regions are a part of) because they have not actually sat round as a group of teams and discussed how they can improve the tournament.  For starters they should be copying the Aviva in terms of fixture rounds. Every Pro 12 weekend should have fixtures for all the teams involved.   The regions are to blame partly for this because of the Anglo Welsh cup which we can all agree is a total waste of time these days (in fact, how come they are still even competiting in this?).  Reffing standards need to improve with criteria being set on what kind of product the 12 participating teams are trying to achieve.  The whole process of the league requires each of its particpating teams to buy into the concept.  Instead the Welsh owners have stood by and just slagged off the Pro 12 and looked to get out of it. Again given they have nowhere to go, I failed to see the purpose of even upsetting the apple cart (and I dont mean the WRU but the Welsh/Scottish/Irish & Italian relations).  The Pro 12 has the potential to become a top competition but it wont happen by accident and certanly will require particiapation from each of its members (primarily the clubs/provinces/regions).

And no thats saying the WRU dont have a part to play in professional rugby but given the only real influence they can have is with regards to funding, the primary failing factors lie with the regions.  Granted not everyone see's it that way but given the regions have tried outspending teams before and still not managed to bring home success at european level, it is clear that money is not the over riding factor to success.  Otherwise French teams would win the HC every year.

Welshmushroom wrote:

You make that sound as if its the WRU's responsibilty to create a professional domestic product.  It isnt.  If it where the regions wouldnt exist in the first place and the teams would already be umbrella body under the WRU.  

Welshmushroom wrote: Funding is the only means the WRU have in terms of controlling the regions.  Like any business they in turn want more for their ROI.  Any business person would be the same.  

Welshmushroom wrote:I think the real issue of our teams under performing is actually more to do with the fact that coaching and management of those coaches isnt up to scratch.  Take Leinster and Munster for example, they are always hiring some of the best head coaches in the game.  By contrast we hire people like Tandy (talented as he may be - he simply does not have the experience of top level coaching & selections).  I appreciate coaching has to start somewhere but the regions shouldnt be a development tool for coaches and managers (only for players).   For me thats the massive void between regional rugby and why they are not being successful against teams like Munster/Leinster/Ulster & Glasgow.  Bottom line people want a better product and their teams to play with some urgency.  The Blues for example have underperformed so many times I've lost count and they spend a darn side more than the Dragons, who I would argue are playing the more entertaining rugby.

Welshmushroom wrote: I'd also question the way they tie their money up.  Take the Priestland fiasco for example.  Since the last World Cup he's been a bit hot & cold.  Scarlets however being desperate to keep him upped his wages significantly and he resigns.

Welshmushroom wrote: Lets forget for a moment that Wasps & Gloucester would have offered him a starting spot in their team so it wouldnt have impacted his selection posssibilties for Wales.   The real question was the signing actually worth increasing your overheads for?  

Welshmushroom wrote: They could have signed Morgan from the Ospreys and he probably would have added to their running game and actually kept their costs down in the knowledge that they have Jordan Williams, Shingler & Thomas who can all do a job for them in that position.  Nope instead they opt for non of the above and consign the squad to 100K less in their budget for next year.  A total schambles and waste of money in my opinion.

Welshmushroom wrote: Thirdly I would also point to the failures of the Pro 12 (which the regions are a part of) because they have not actually sat round as a group of teams and discussed how they can improve the tournament.  For starters they should be copying the Aviva in terms of fixture rounds. Every Pro 12 weekend should have fixtures for all the teams involved.   The regions are to blame partly for this because of the Anglo Welsh cup which we can all agree is a total waste of time these days (in fact, how come they are still even competiting in this?).  Reffing standards need to improve with criteria being set on what kind of product the 12 participating teams are trying to achieve.  The whole process of the league requires each of its particpating teams to buy into the concept.  Instead the Welsh owners have stood by and just slagged off the Pro 12 and looked to get out of it. Again given they have nowhere to go, I failed to see the purpose of even upsetting the apple cart (and I dont mean the WRU but the Welsh/Scottish/Irish & Italian relations).  The Pro 12 has the potential to become a top competition but it wont happen by accident and certanly will require particiapation from each of its members (primarily the clubs/provinces/regions).

Welshmushroom wrote: And no thats saying the WRU dont have a part to play in professional rugby but given the only real influence they can have is with regards to funding, the primary failing factors lie with the regions.  Granted not everyone see's it that way but given the regions have tried outspending teams before and still not managed to bring home success at european level, it is clear that money is not the over riding factor to success.  Otherwise French teams would win the HC every year.

Stone Motif wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote: Thirdly I would also point to the failures of the Pro 12 (which the regions are a part of) because they have not actually sat round as a group of teams and discussed how they can improve the tournament.  For starters they should be copying the Aviva in terms of fixture rounds. Every Pro 12 weekend should have fixtures for all the teams involved.   The regions are to blame partly for this because of the Anglo Welsh cup which we can all agree is a total waste of time these days (in fact, how come they are still even competiting in this?).  Reffing standards need to improve with criteria being set on what kind of product the 12 participating teams are trying to achieve.  The whole process of the league requires each of its particpating teams to buy into the concept.  Instead the Welsh owners have stood by and just slagged off the Pro 12 and looked to get out of it. Again given they have nowhere to go, I failed to see the purpose of even upsetting the apple cart (and I dont mean the WRU but the Welsh/Scottish/Irish & Italian relations).  The Pro 12 has the potential to become a top competition but it wont happen by accident and certanly will require particiapation from each of its members (primarily the clubs/provinces/regions).

Brilliant.  The regions need to improve a fundamentally broken product that their union has demanded needs to stay just the way it is.  Why do the Italians want out of it as well if it's so great?  Why don't any of the other nations want in?  Because it is not capable of generating fixtures with any historical rivalry, it has no market value beyond three tiny nations at the arse end of Europe, and is a logistical nightmare for participants and supporters.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote: Thirdly I would also point to the failures of the Pro 12 (which the regions are a part of) because they have not actually sat round as a group of teams and discussed how they can improve the tournament.  For starters they should be copying the Aviva in terms of fixture rounds. Every Pro 12 weekend should have fixtures for all the teams involved.   The regions are to blame partly for this because of the Anglo Welsh cup which we can all agree is a total waste of time these days (in fact, how come they are still even competiting in this?).  Reffing standards need to improve with criteria being set on what kind of product the 12 participating teams are trying to achieve.  The whole process of the league requires each of its particpating teams to buy into the concept.  Instead the Welsh owners have stood by and just slagged off the Pro 12 and looked to get out of it. Again given they have nowhere to go, I failed to see the purpose of even upsetting the apple cart (and I dont mean the WRU but the Welsh/Scottish/Irish & Italian relations).  The Pro 12 has the potential to become a top competition but it wont happen by accident and certanly will require particiapation from each of its members (primarily the clubs/provinces/regions).

Brilliant.  The regions need to improve a fundamentally broken product that their union has demanded needs to stay just the way it is.  Why do the Italians want out of it as well if it's so great?  Why don't any of the other nations want in?  Because it is not capable of generating fixtures with any historical rivalry, it has no market value beyond three tiny nations at the arse end of Europe, and is a logistical nightmare for participants and supporters.

Oh dear!  Clearly the Italians want out as they are not happy with having to pay to be in at as things stand right now.  Were they to leave, however, I think even the most one-eyed numpty would struggle to see that as a positive for Italian rugby!  As for no other nations wanting in it, there are no other nations that realistically you'd want in it.  As for historical rivalry, there's plenty of it - just look at the Irish inter-provincial games or the 1872 Cup played between Glasgow and Edinburgh?  Clearly no history there.  As for it having no market value, well clearly it does as one of the major broadcasting firms has signed a significant deal to broadcast some games.  But don't let facts get in the way of your rant

Stone Motif wrote:The problems are in the cross-border nature of the league (as you must see if you are not a half-wit)