IRFU holding onto top players

The IRFU announced the re-signing of Ireland Captain Paul O'Connell on a two-year deal this morning. O'Connell is the latest in a series of players to sign on with the Union. Sean O'Brien followed suit earlier in the week, joining regular international starters Rory Best, Donnacha Ryan, Conor Murray in renewing their central contracts in the past few months.

Jamie Heaslip was also reported by Midi Olympique this morning to be on the verge of resigning with the IRFU, although that remains unconfirmed at this stage- Toulon, I think, retain a strong interest.

A lot of doomsayers predicted we might suffer the Welsh fate after Sexton went but this season has been very encouraging in terms of guys committing their future to Irish Rugby. But with the new TV deal for the French clubs giving spending power to even the lower profile sides and the English clubs mulling over a 10% increase in the salary cap, can we maintain this in the long term future?

Two years - is that up until the end of 2015/16 then?

He's in excellent form but that's a pretty long contract for a 34 year old with a recent history of serious injury.

biggest difference between ireland and wales is the tax break available to irish players in ireland.

absent that interference in the free market, and i think there will be similar numbers of top players from england, wales and ireland at french clubs.

quinsforever wrote:biggest difference between ireland and wales is the tax break available to irish players in ireland.

absent that interference in the free market, and i think there will be similar numbers of top players from england, wales and ireland at french clubs.

Tax breaks make no difference in keeping them in Ireland anymore. All they have to do is retire in a EU country. POC could have gone to England or France and when he retires, reclaim 40% of tax paid in Ireland over a period of (his best) 10 years. This is just the money he would have been paid for playing rugby - not endorsements, advertising or any other businesses he is involved in.

No tax breaks in the north and our top players are staying as well - how do you explain that ?

Also the rules have been changed so that players can spend their last years abroad ala Stringer and still get the tax breaks.
Means players like POC, BOD, D'Arcy, DOC etc would not lose out if they went abroad but still they stay - how do you explain that ?

rodders wrote:Two years - is that up until the end of 2015/16 then?

He's in excellent form but that's a pretty long contract for a 34 year old with a recent history of serious injury.

Rodders, they were niggly injuries, rather than serious ones. The trapped nerve in his back went on for so long because they wanted to avoid surgery. He broke his arm last time.

He is playing great though now.

Sin é wrote:

rodders wrote:Two years - is that up until the end of 2015/16 then?

He's in excellent form but that's a pretty long contract for a 34 year old with a recent history of serious injury.

Rodders, they were niggly injuries, rather than serious ones. The trapped nerve in his back went on for so long because they wanted to avoid surgery. He broke his arm last time.

He is playing great though now.

He is and on balance its very good news, I'm just saying that I'd have doubts he could play International rugby beyond the RWC - look at Leo Cullen and DOC, they are becoming useful squad men at provincial level now - same with Bakkies and Williams at Toulon. I've no doubt POC can go on a while yet but his days as an 80 min world class lock are drawing to a close I'm afraid. Unfortunately like Drico the big man can't last forever.

We needed to tie him for the 2015 WC

I suspect he will just be there as backup for the 2016 6N

Yeah maybe - no it makes sense. He'll be a massive player going into the RWC and whether he has the fitness and motivation to go on for Ireland after that we'll see.

tax break clearly has a huge impact. this year will be one of POC and BOD's top 10 years of rugby salary given the wage inflation over the last 10-15 years. how is that confusing?

and when they are older they have families, children, school issues etc so much harder to leave.

you are all delusional of you dont think the 10 years of tax breaks doesnt keep talented young players in ireland.

re ulster, i don't know. are the irish players who play for ulster able to claim the tax back in eire when they retire? do they all live in NI or do some commute from across the border? what about players on central contracts, as those are certainly paid by Eire under irish tax law rather than UK?

Ulster players get no tax break at all but still they stay.

You are delusional if you cannot see that Irish players are happy to stay for reasons other than money.

Playing for their country, living at home counts for a lot providing the income is decent enough. Worth losing a few thousand for.

Not just Irish player either - Pienaer has clearly stated he is playing at Ulster rather than going to France because he is happy here.
Pienaer could have gone to Franch for a bigger salary but chose not to.

Tax breaks did have an impact only when they meant that you had to finish your career in Ireland. That doesn't matter any more. Irish players are getting significantly less than what they could earn in France or England and the tax they do get back is only 40% of tax paid, not all their tax back. There is also a cap on it. Its basically a decent pension pot when they retire.

None of the Ulster players live, or can claim to live in the ROI and are ineligible for it. And the IRFU wouldn't chance messing the tax incentive up by risking any dodgy stuff.

I disagree with you about it being more difficult for older players with families - far easier - as least they will have family around them for the move and its a great experience for young kids to learn a new language maybe.

quinsforever wrote: do they all live in NI or do some commute from across the border? what about players on central contracts, as those are certainly paid by Eire under irish tax law rather than UK?

It is where your main place of work is that is key - that is Ravenhill.
I know about this because my company employ people who work in Derry and live in Donegal.
We looked into this - they must pay UK taxes because they work in the UK

geoff998rugby wrote:Ulster players get no tax break at all but still they stay.

You are delusional if you cannot see that Irish players are happy to stay for reasons other than money.

Playing for their country, living at home counts for a lot providing the income is decent enough. Worth losing a few thousand for.

Not just Irish player either - Pienaer has clearly stated he is playing at Ulster rather than going to France because he is happy here.
Pienaer could have gone to Franch for a bigger salary but chose not to.

Does Tommy Bowe not get the tax break given that he is from the republic?

geoff998rugby wrote:

quinsforever wrote:  do they all live in NI or do some commute from across the border? what about players on central contracts, as those are certainly paid by Eire under irish tax law rather than UK?

It is where your main place of work is that is key - that is Ravenhill.
I know about this because my company employ people who work in Derry and live in Donegal.
We looked into this - they must pay UK taxes because they work in the UK

Interesting. What if they work from home but are employed by a UK company?

All the evidence points to the fact that Ireland is a desirable place to live and play rugby and Wales... er...isn't......

and central contract money?

sin e - players still need to accumulate the 10 years of irish tax paid. how are they going to do that if they go to france age 22?

GunsGerms wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:

quinsforever wrote:  do they all live in NI or do some commute from across the border? what about players on central contracts, as those are certainly paid by Eire under irish tax law rather than UK?

It is where your main place of work is that is key - that is Ravenhill.
I know about this because my company employ people who work in Derry and live in Donegal.
We looked into this - they must pay UK taxes because they work in the UK

Interesting. What if they work from home but are employed by a UK company?

and what if they retire to Eire - can they claim the rugby taxes paid back anyway, especially if they have played for the national team? that is entirely subjective and up to the irish government, nothing to do with ordinary tax issues that we face.

GunsGerms wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:

quinsforever wrote:  do they all live in NI or do some commute from across the border? what about players on central contracts, as those are certainly paid by Eire under irish tax law rather than UK?

It is where your main place of work is that is key - that is Ravenhill.
I know about this because my company employ people who work in Derry and live in Donegal.
We looked into this - they must pay UK taxes because they work in the UK

Interesting. What if they work from home but are employed by a UK company?

Nope sorry doesn't work. If the employer is based in the UK it doesn't matter where the work is done from.....

rodders wrote:All the evidence points to the fact that Ireland is a desirable place to live and play rugby and Wales... er...isn't......

No they don't,ten years is the maximum they can claim back it's not a target they have to hit.

As rodders confirms you pay UK taxes anyway.
Many of our people do work from home, in Donegal, but still have to pay UK taxes.

quinsforever wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:

quinsforever wrote:  do they all live in NI or do some commute from across the border? what about players on central contracts, as those are certainly paid by Eire under irish tax law rather than UK?

It is where your main place of work is that is key - that is Ravenhill.
I know about this because my company employ people who work in Derry and live in Donegal.
We looked into this - they must pay UK taxes because they work in the UK

Interesting. What if they work from home but are employed by a UK company?

and what if they retire to Eire - can they claim the rugby taxes paid back anyway, especially if they have played for the national team? that is entirely subjective and up to the irish government, nothing to do with ordinary tax issues that we face.

Never tested but I do not believe it would be legal.
They have never paid southern taxes and therefore cannot be given a rebate

rodders wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:

quinsforever wrote:  do they all live in NI or do some commute from across the border? what about players on central contracts, as those are certainly paid by Eire under irish tax law rather than UK?

It is where your main place of work is that is key - that is Ravenhill.
I know about this because my company employ people who work in Derry and live in Donegal.
We looked into this - they must pay UK taxes because they work in the UK

Interesting. What if they work from home but are employed by a UK company?

Nope sorry doesn't work. If the employer is based in the UK it doesn't matter where the work is done from.....

actually not true at all. most people in this situation would set themselves up as a company, employing themselves, based wherever they want, and invoice the UK company for their services.

it only matters where the employee is based. residency and the number of days spent in a country are the biggest determinants of who you owe your taxes to.

quinsforever wrote:and central contract money?

sin e - players still need to accumulate the 10 years of irish tax paid. how are they going to do that if they go to france age 22?

The French tax rebates are bigger than the Irsih ones

geoff998rugby wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:

quinsforever wrote:  do they all live in NI or do some commute from across the border? what about players on central contracts, as those are certainly paid by Eire under irish tax law rather than UK?

It is where your main place of work is that is key - that is Ravenhill.
I know about this because my company employ people who work in Derry and live in Donegal.
We looked into this - they must pay UK taxes because they work in the UK

Interesting. What if they work from home but are employed by a UK company?

and what if they retire to Eire - can they claim the rugby taxes paid back anyway, especially if they have played for the national team? that is entirely subjective and up to the irish government, nothing to do with ordinary tax issues that we face.

Never tested but I do not believe it would be legal.
They have never paid southern taxes and therefore cannot be given a rebate

of course they could be given a rebate. that would just be a tax rule like the one allowing 40% of best 10 years tax paid to be claimed back.

geoff998rugby wrote:

quinsforever wrote:and central contract money?

sin e - players still need to accumulate the 10 years of irish tax paid. how are they going to do that if they go to france age 22?

The French tax rebates are bigger than the Irsih ones

the french tax rebates for irish players?   

quinsforever wrote:

rodders wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:

quinsforever wrote:  do they all live in NI or do some commute from across the border? what about players on central contracts, as those are certainly paid by Eire under irish tax law rather than UK?

It is where your main place of work is that is key - that is Ravenhill.
I know about this because my company employ people who work in Derry and live in Donegal.
We looked into this - they must pay UK taxes because they work in the UK

Interesting. What if they work from home but are employed by a UK company?

Nope sorry doesn't work. If the employer is based in the UK it doesn't matter where the work is done from.....

actually not true at all. most people in this situation would set themselves up as a company, employing themselves, based wherever they want, and invoice the UK company for their services.

it only matters where the employee is based. residency and the number of days spent in a country are the biggest determinants of who you owe your taxes to.

But the Ulster players place of work is Ravenhill.
Likewise our employees work in Derry.

There is no way round this for either group.
So whilst your point has some basis it is irrelevant to the matter here

quinsforever wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:

quinsforever wrote:and central contract money?

sin e - players still need to accumulate the 10 years of irish tax paid. how are they going to do that if they go to france age 22?

The French tax rebates are bigger than the Irsih ones

the french tax rebates for irish players?   

Essentially yes - any player in France can offset 40% of their income as tax free.
It doesn't matter where you come from.
It is not a rebate but something they are not required to pay

quinsforever wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:

quinsforever wrote:  do they all live in NI or do some commute from across the border? what about players on central contracts, as those are certainly paid by Eire under irish tax law rather than UK?

It is where your main place of work is that is key - that is Ravenhill.
I know about this because my company employ people who work in Derry and live in Donegal.
We looked into this - they must pay UK taxes because they work in the UK

Interesting. What if they work from home but are employed by a UK company?

and what if they retire to Eire - can they claim the rugby taxes paid back anyway, especially if they have played for the national team? that is entirely subjective and up to the irish government, nothing to do with ordinary tax issues that we face.

Never tested but I do not believe it would be legal.
They have never paid southern taxes and therefore cannot be given a rebate

of course they could be given a rebate. that would just be a tax rule like the one allowing 40% of best 10 years tax paid to be claimed back.

They could not be given a rebate on something they haven't paid

This is certainly good news. The real good news will come in a couple of years time when some of these contracts are up (for the younger players) and the French TV contract still has a few years to run. That will be when the smaller French clubs have plenty of cash to throw around.

But COS was saying that several of the Quins players have been offered double what they're on there to go to French and none have moved on. I think it massively helps to have plenty of guys that have come through the system AND it's a good system. They trust the club/province will look after them. Tigers are another that are supposed to look after the players (through injury, after early retirement due to injury, etc) and the players buy into that system even if not through the academy.

If a team is offering a 'fair' and 'reasonable' wage and the players trust them they will stay. If they can't/won't then they may well move on.

IMO

geoff998rugby wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:

quinsforever wrote:and central contract money?

sin e - players still need to accumulate the 10 years of irish tax paid. how are they going to do that if they go to france age 22?

The French tax rebates are bigger than the Irsih ones

the french tax rebates for irish players?   

Essentially yes - any player in France can offset 40% of their income as tax free.
It doesn't matter where you come from.
It is not a rebate but something they are not required to pay

is this what you are referring to?

"French government repealed the law known as DIC (Droit à l'Image Collectif) the 1 July 2010. This law, allowed all member clubs in French professional sports organisations to treat 30% of each player's salary as image rights. This portion of player salaries was thus exempt from France's high payroll and social insurance taxes."

or are you saying that all rugby players in france have 40% of the income tax free? that would be extremely unlikely in a progressive taxation system with threshold. in fact i have never heard of such a thing. i have heard of "the first x amount being tax free". but not a certain % of income being tax free - because all players will have very different incomes.

link pls?

it is the image rights I was referring to - I'd heard 40% but that coudl be wrong.

To attempt to get this back on track they key point is that France offer a level of tax exemption that is very attractive in its own right and therefore Irish tax breaks are not a factor, when considering France as an alternative, to Irish players.

It is clearly down to other factors as is shown by Ulster players who are not entitled to the Irish tax breaks.

There is the tax break- and the tax regime in France does not compare favourably to the UK in general- but what is interesting is the IRFU certainly aren't interested in matching the biggest French clubs euro for euro. Jonny Sexton is better off over there tax break or no tax break there's no doubt about that. Maybe the IRFU have opened the purse strings more since he left but the resources we have are finite.

There are factors at play besides money. Let's not pretend money isn't a factor- it clearly is everywhere in the rugby world. But it's certainly not the only factor here. As HoT says the biggest tests definitely lie ahead for us and the rest of the rugby world.

It is very encouraging to see Irish player putting their health and their country before money, if anything it proves how much playing for Ireland means to them.

quins- why the hostility towards central contracts? Is this not capitalism in action- Ireland selling out international games gives them the funds to pay their players a competitive wage? They provide a product for which there is demand, giving them the financial muscle to compete in the marketplace. Why the hostility- is it that the IRFU is a non-profit and invests back in the game as opposed to ultimately taking money out of it?

There's always France for the retirement funds top-up, I think that'll be a trend we see emerging. Do your 10 years in Ireland and then off to France or Japan.

We're lucky in that Jonny Sexton is the perfect cautionary tale. There he is with all the money he could hope to be earning, in a rubbish team playing low quality rugby. He's regressing as a sportsman over there.

The most important things for me are- we expand, not diminish, the role of University Education and careers guidance throughout and after a players career. If a player feels he is getting the guidance to have a successful second career after rugby he may well be less focused on making as much money as possible before he retires and he'll also grow as a person and hopefully go on to enjoy as much success after rugby as he did during it.

I also think it's crucial that Ireland continues to lead the rest of Europe in terms of our coaching standards and strength and conditioning programs. Thats something that many players from these parts find in France; they aren't looked after as well and they aren't in teams that are coached as well.

quinsforever wrote:actually not true at all. most people in this situation would set themselves up as a company, employing themselves, based wherever they want, and invoice the UK company for their services.

it only matters where the employee is based. residency and the number of days spent in a country are the biggest determinants of who you owe your taxes to.

In which they wouldn't be an employee but an external contractor i.e. Tommy Bowe inc. bills Ulster rugby for services rendered.

rodders wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:

quinsforever wrote:  do they all live in NI or do some commute from across the border? what about players on central contracts, as those are certainly paid by Eire under irish tax law rather than UK?

It is where your main place of work is that is key - that is Ravenhill.
I know about this because my company employ people who work in Derry and live in Donegal.
We looked into this - they must pay UK taxes because they work in the UK

Interesting. What if they work from home but are employed by a UK company?

Nope sorry doesn't work. If the employer is based in the UK it doesn't matter where the work is done from.....

Does that mean that if I lived in Ireland I worked for a UK company and therefore paid UK taxes I could benefit from social welfare in the UK etc. Free GP visits for example.

GunsGerms wrote:
Does that mean that if I lived in Ireland I worked for a UK company and therefore paid UK taxes I could benefit from social welfare in the UK etc. Free GP visits for example.

You would be treated if you needed medical attention in the UK anyway. Anyone who is legally within the UK has full access to the NHS. It's one of the main principles of the service. I mean as an Irish citizen you have a right to residency here anyway, but even if you were just visiting on a tourist visa if you were sick during your visit you'd get whatever you needed.

I'd like to keep this thread on topic and not about the NHS, before it starts, lets have the politics and economics only mentioned to the extent that they directly affect rugby but just answering Guns' question.

EDIT; Maybe not.

http://www.nhs.uk/NHSEngland/AboutNHSservices/uk-visitors/Pages/accessing-nhs-services.aspx

Non-EU citizens may be charged for some treatments

Nope - that is based upon where you live.

In the EU as a EU resident you receive the medical care that residents of the country you reside in get.

Also if you company has an Irish office you would pay Irish not UK taxes.

Notch wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:
Does that mean that if I lived in Ireland I worked for a UK company and therefore paid UK taxes I could benefit from social welfare in the UK etc. Free GP visits for example.

You would be treated if you needed medical attention in the UK anyway. Anyone who is legally within the UK has full access to the NHS. It's one of the main principles of the service. I mean as an Irish citizen you have a right to residency here anyway, but even if you were just visiting on a tourist visa if you were sick during your visit you'd get whatever you needed.

I'd like to keep this thread on topic and not about the NHS, before it starts, lets have the politics and economics only mentioned to the extent that they directly affect rugby but just answering Guns' question.

EDIT; Maybe not.

http://www.nhs.uk/NHSEngland/AboutNHSservices/uk-visitors/Pages/accessing-nhs-services.aspx

Non-EU citizens may be charged for some treatments

Ok thanks. Seems an odd anomaly that I could just cross the border and benefit from a free GP visit.

GunsGerms wrote:
Does that mean that if I lived in Ireland I worked for a UK company and therefore paid UK taxes I could benefit from social welfare in the UK etc. Free GP visits for example.

No you'd receive emergency treatment but wouldn't be able to access a GP..... or you could do what everyone else does and just use an address in NI.....    

Ha ha. Interesting. Thanks for the tip Rodders.

Of course I would never do anything like that anyway.

No probs Guns you can use Notches address sure .....

Haha. Sometimes to order stuff from the UK when they dont deliver to ROI I use a service called postal motel which uses NI addresses but anyway back on topic it is great that SOB has resigned and that we generally are able to hold onto our players. If anything Sexton's move will probably prove to be a positive warning to players seeking to move abroad given that he really hasnt benefited much from the move abroad, not even that much financially.

Aye, come around my gaffe. It's just me and dozens of health tourists. Loadsa fun!

GunsGerms wrote:Haha. Sometimes to order stuff from the UK when they dont deliver to ROI I use a service called postal motel which uses NI addresses but anyway back on topic it is great that SOB has resigned and that we generally are able to hold onto our players. If anything Sexton's move will probably prove to be a positive warning to players seeking to move abroad given that he really hasnt benefited much from the move abroad, not even that much financially.

Just out of interest how well paid are the top players in Ireland?

Sexton is what the 2nd highest earner in world rugby at RM no?

Wasn't Bowe's reported salary 300k pa euros when he came back from Ospreys? I'd imagine that's the upper end of what the IRFU wouid be forking out?

Peanuts compared to Sexton anyways.....

quinsforever wrote:biggest difference between ireland and wales is the tax break available to irish players in ireland.

absent that interference in the free market, and i think there will be similar numbers of top players from england, wales and ireland at french clubs.

So quins, you admit you have been proven completely wrong on this point? That maybe in this case the beloved free market is not the be all and end all for Irish players at least?

How many Irish players are in france???? I can name quite a few from Scotland, England & Wales... hardly any from Ireland.

Sexton is 2nd highest earner in the T14 (monthly wages, assume those are before tax and that they include the "image rights" and other royalties etc)
1. Jonny Wilkinson: 56 000 €
2. Jonathan Sexton: 52 000 €
3. Bryan Habana: 50 000 €
4. Morgan Parra: 46 000 €
5. Thierry Dusautoir: 43 000 €
6. Dimitri Szarzewski: 41 000 € (overpaid)
Carl Hayman: 41 000 €
Bakkies Botha: 41 000 €
9. Jamie Roberts: 40 000 € (not bad for someone who played 3 games)
Matt Giteau: 40 000 €