IRFU holding onto top players

by **Notch** Mon 20 Jan 2014, 9:41 am

First topic message reminder :

The IRFU announced the re-signing of Ireland Captain Paul O'Connell on a two-year deal this morning. O'Connell is the latest in a series of players to sign on with the Union. Sean O'Brien followed suit earlier in the week, joining regular international starters Rory Best, Donnacha Ryan, Conor Murray in renewing their central contracts in the past few months.

Jamie Heaslip was also reported by Midi Olympique this morning to be on the verge of resigning with the IRFU, although that remains unconfirmed at this stage- Toulon, I think, retain a strong interest.

A lot of doomsayers predicted we might suffer the Welsh fate after Sexton went but this season has been very encouraging in terms of guys committing their future to Irish Rugby. But with the new TV deal for the French clubs giving spending power to even the lower profile sides and the English clubs mulling over a 10% increase in the salary cap, can we maintain this in the long term future?

by quinsforever Mon 20 Jan 2014, 3:28 pm

Notch wrote:quins- why the hostility towards central contracts? Is this not capitalism in action- Ireland selling out international games gives them the funds to pay their players a competitive wage? They provide a product for which there is demand, giving them the financial muscle to compete in the marketplace. Why the hostility- is it that the IRFU is a non-profit and invests back in the game as opposed to ultimately taking money out of it?

There's always France for the retirement funds top-up, I think that'll be a trend we see emerging. Do your 10 years in Ireland and then off to France or Japan.

We're lucky in that Jonny Sexton is the perfect cautionary tale. There he is with all the money he could hope to be earning, in a rubbish team playing low quality rugby. He's regressing as a sportsman over there.

The most important things for me are- we expand, not diminish, the role of University Education and careers guidance throughout and after a players career. If a player feels he is getting the guidance to have a successful second career after rugby he may well be less focused on making as much money as possible before he retires and he'll also grow as a person and hopefully go on to enjoy as much success after rugby as he did during it.

I also think it's crucial that Ireland continues to lead the rest of Europe in terms of our coaching standards and strength and conditioning programs. Thats something that many players from these parts find in France; they aren't looked after as well and they aren't in teams that are coached as well.

i have no hostility to central contracts whatsoever. was just trying to establish whether central contracts offered to ulster players would benefit from the tax break, in an attempt to answer geoff. i have absolutely no bias for or against central contracts. also have very little undertanding of how they work.

by fa0019 Mon 20 Jan 2014, 3:31 pm

Do people think its slightly unfair to Ulster that they can't offer the same terms due to being in a separate country? Almost would guarantee the top players staying/going to the south?

I understand it is nothing to do with the IRFU though and its a govt. thing so not much they can do about it... and it doesn't look like Ulster are doing too badly at the moment anyhow... well albeit having to deal with Kurt Darren music in the dressing room!!!

by GunsGerms Mon 20 Jan 2014, 3:38 pm

Ulster players rarely transfer to the three ROI provinces for some reason. There has never really been a marquee indigenous Ulsterman that signed for Leinster, Connacht or Munster.

Faloon, O'Connor and Boss (non indigenous) have done it but no one really good as far as I recall.

I think it is unfair though. Maybe there is some sweetner arangement for centrally contracted Ulstermen that no one is aware of.

In any case given that the IRFU is the parent company of Ulster rugby it seems possible that the Ulster guys could technically be employed by an Irish company and therefore subject to Irish tax rules. I havent a clue how it works in reality though. Certainly the centrally contracted Ulster lads are contracted to the IRFU so therefore are they not working for an Irish company and therefore subject to Irish tax?

by quinsforever Mon 20 Jan 2014, 3:39 pm

wolfball wrote:
quinsforever wrote:biggest difference between ireland and wales is the tax break available to irish players in ireland.

absent that interference in the free market, and i think there will be similar numbers of top players from england, wales and ireland at french clubs.

So quins, you admit you have been proven completely wrong on this point? That maybe in this case the beloved free market is not the be all and end all for Irish players at least?

you obviously haven't understood this discussion.

geoff is wrong - there is ZERO personal tax rebate in france, it used to be (before it got repealed in 2010) a way for the club to void paying national insurance and social security on wages, so the club could afford to pay a bigger number. individual players always did and still do pay the same french income taxes, irrespective of nationality.

secondly, the fact that irish players (and irish players only) get 40% of the tax paid on their best 10 years of playing in ireland (and in ireland only) is of course a factor that helps keep them in ireland.

how have i been "proven" wrong? i would have thought the fact that there is only 1 irish player i can think of in France is in fact proof of the opposite - that the tax break does have an impact.

let's turn it around - if the tax break has no impact on keeping players in ireland, then it is completely irresponsible of the irish government to keep it going, no? just throwing away money where it is having no impact, no? exactly. of course it has an impact.

picard

by quinsforever Mon 20 Jan 2014, 3:43 pm

GunsGerms wrote:Ulster players rarely transfer to the three ROI provinces for some reason. There has never really been a marquee indigenous Ulsterman that signed for Leinster, Connacht or Munster.

Faloon, O'Connor and Boss (non indigenous) have done it but no one really good as far as I recall.

I think it is unfair though. Maybe there is some arangement that no one is aware of.

In any case given that the IRFU is the parent company of Ulster rugby it seems possible that the Ulster guys could technically be employed by an Irish company and therefore subject to Irish tax rules. I havent a clue how it works in reality though.

and neither do any of the very declarative posters on this topic here. as you say, it may well be that anyone who gets an ireland cap (which can only count as working for SI, not NI) becomes eligible for the tax rebates. especially, also as you say, as ulster branch salaries are ultimately being paid by a southern irish entity (IRFU) which sits on top of ulster branch. in other words they are working for an irish company. who knows.

by wolfball Mon 20 Jan 2014, 3:48 pm

quinsforever wrote:
wolfball wrote:
quinsforever wrote:biggest difference between ireland and wales is the tax break available to irish players in ireland.

absent that interference in the free market, and i think there will be similar numbers of top players from england, wales and ireland at french clubs.

So quins, you admit you have been proven completely wrong on this point? That maybe in this case the beloved free market is not the be all and end all for Irish players at least?
you obviously haven't understood this discussion.

geoff is wrong - there is ZERO personal tax rebate in france, it used to be (before it got repealed in 2010) a way for the club to void paying national insurance and social security on wages, so the club could afford to pay a bigger number. individual players always did and still do pay the same french income taxes, irrespective of nationality.

secondly, the fact that irish players (and irish players only) get 40% of the tax paid on their best 10 years of playing in ireland (and in ireland only) is of course a factor that helps keep them in ireland.

how have i been "proven" wrong? i would have thought the fact that there is only 1 irish player i can think of in France is in fact proof of the opposite - that the tax break does have an impact.

let's turn it around - if the tax break has no impact on keeping players in ireland, then it is completely irresponsible of the irish government to keep it going, no? just throwing away money where it is having no impact, no? exactly. of course it has an impact.

Then you do not understand what everyone has been telling you. Ulster players do not get the rebate even if they play for Ireland. So money/tax rebate is not the prime reason for players staying in Ireland. The love of their country, roots, the player protections in place by the IRFU are the prime reasons. I know non-financial incentives make no sense to someone like you, but they plainly exist for Irish players and you just hate to admit that.

by fa0019 Mon 20 Jan 2014, 3:48 pm

knowing the british govt. from memory and their tax laws no doubt they would go through stacks of rotten underpants to get a few extra quid from their subjects, whether or not they are entitled or not... I can't imagine Ulster would get away with claiming they are a Eire firm, well unless their board are weekend golfing buddies of the PM.

by geoff998rugby Mon 20 Jan 2014, 3:48 pm

Well I can tell you Ulster rugby have looked into this and not found a way round it.
My company has also looked into it - our parent company is American.

In both cases the key is where is your main place of work - home working as a loop whole has been blocked.

If it was possible both my company and Ulster would have done it long ago.

by Golden Mon 20 Jan 2014, 3:49 pm

Even with the tax rebate what SOB and co. could have gotten in France would far outstrip it so its pretty clear that money isnt the only reason to stay in Ireland. I read (rumours i know) that SOB and Heaslip were offered 500k after tax from Toulon. His new IRFU contract was reported to be around 350k. I would imagine the tax rebate had little to do with his decision.

by **rodders** Mon 20 Jan 2014, 3:51 pm

No that's not how it works that's like saying anyone who works for Ryanair or Guinness in the UK pay taxes to Ireland - for these companies to trade legally they have a UK subsidiary.

by geoff998rugby Mon 20 Jan 2014, 3:51 pm

quinsforever wrote: geoff is wrong - there is ZERO personal tax rebate in france,

And as I quickly corrected I was referring to the image rights option that you yourself posted Whistle

by fa0019 Mon 20 Jan 2014, 3:51 pm

wolfball wrote:
quinsforever wrote:
wolfball wrote:
quinsforever wrote:biggest difference between ireland and wales is the tax break available to irish players in ireland.

absent that interference in the free market, and i think there will be similar numbers of top players from england, wales and ireland at french clubs.

So quins, you admit you have been proven completely wrong on this point? That maybe in this case the beloved free market is not the be all and end all for Irish players at least?
you obviously haven't understood this discussion.

geoff is wrong - there is ZERO personal tax rebate in france, it used to be (before it got repealed in 2010) a way for the club to void paying national insurance and social security on wages, so the club could afford to pay a bigger number. individual players always did and still do pay the same french income taxes, irrespective of nationality.

secondly, the fact that irish players (and irish players only) get 40% of the tax paid on their best 10 years of playing in ireland (and in ireland only) is of course a factor that helps keep them in ireland.

how have i been "proven" wrong? i would have thought the fact that there is only 1 irish player i can think of in France is in fact proof of the opposite - that the tax break does have an impact.

let's turn it around - if the tax break has no impact on keeping players in ireland, then it is completely irresponsible of the irish government to keep it going, no? just throwing away money where it is having no impact, no? exactly. of course it has an impact.

Then you do not understand what everyone has been telling you. Ulster players do not get the rebate even if they play for Ireland. So money/tax rebate is not the prime reason for players staying in Ireland. The love of their country, roots, the player protections in place by the IRFU are the prime reasons. I know non-financial incentives make no sense to someone like you, but they plainly exist for Irish players and you just hate to admit that.

sounded good until you mentioned love of their country..... I bet half those players would sell their soul for a doubling of salary, as would a great majority of any population in any country. Just call me a cynic... from a proud nation loving person like myself (who would also sell out!!!).

by GunsGerms Mon 20 Jan 2014, 3:55 pm

geoff998rugby wrote:Well I can tell you Ulster rugby have looked into this and not found a way round it.
My company has also looked into it - our parent company is American.

In both cases the key is where is your main place of work - home working as a loop whole has been blocked.

If it was possible both my company and Ulster would have done it long ago.

Geoff how does it work for Ulster players that play for Ireland? They are obviously paid for their services by the IRFU and play their Ireland matches in Ireland and abroad. Surely their Ireland wages arent subject to UK taxes?

by Golden Mon 20 Jan 2014, 3:55 pm

fa0019 wrote:How many Irish players are in france???? I can name quite a few from Scotland, England & Wales... hardly any from Ireland.

Sextons the only notable player. After him its mostly youngsters. James Hart is getting some decent gametime as the Grenoble 9. They also have a young outhalf, Shane O'Leary. Stade Fracais have a young outhalf too something Lydon(?). Sextons younger brother a second row is playing in the second division with another Irish lad who i cant remember the name of and Mark Flanagan left Leinster last year to go play in the second devision too.

Cant think of any other notable Irish players.

by geoff998rugby Mon 20 Jan 2014, 3:57 pm

Golden wrote:Even with the tax rebate what SOB and co. could have gotten in France would far outstrip it so its pretty clear that money isnt the only reason to stay in Ireland. I read (rumours i know) that SOB and Heaslip were offered 500k after tax from Toulon. His new IRFU contract was reported to be around 350k. I would imagine the tax rebate had little to do with his decision.

Absolutely - quins seems determined to make a case that Irish players stay because of the tax rebate even when the evidence is the contrary.
A lot of Irish players have decided to stay in Ireland even when financially they would be better off elsewhere.

by quinsforever Mon 20 Jan 2014, 3:58 pm

ok so lets get rid of the tax rebate then shall we, if it's not having any impact on keeping players in ireland?

good job munsterfans agrees with you wolfman. Not.

http://www.munsterfans.com/archive/index.php/t-19665.html?s=1387951308dd011bb5adefce43c20f53

by GunsGerms Mon 20 Jan 2014, 4:00 pm

Damian Browne and Andrew Farley too I think.

by geoff998rugby Mon 20 Jan 2014, 4:00 pm

GunsGerms wrote:
geoff998rugby wrote:Well I can tell you Ulster rugby have looked into this and not found a way round it.
My company has also looked into it - our parent company is American.

In both cases the key is where is your main place of work - home working as a loop whole has been blocked.

If it was possible both my company and Ulster would have done it long ago.

Geoff how does it work for Ulster players that play for Ireland? They are obviously paid for their services by the IRFU and play their Ireland matches in Ireland and abroad. Surely their Ireland wages arent subject to UK taxes?

They are because their main place of work is in Belfast.
That is the key.

I think there may be a misunderstanding about central contracts that is causing some of this confusion.
As I understand it the contract is paid for by the IRFU but is with the appropriate branch i.e. it has Shane Logan and David Humphreys signature on it on the bottom not people from Dublin.

by fa0019 Mon 20 Jan 2014, 4:02 pm

Money isn't everything... it never is.

South Africa pay is nothing compared to UK in rugby terms. Yet it took the rand to falling 40% to the Euro/Pound before droves started jumping ship again.

Love of their country is one thing... but leaving family, friends, your home, familiarity and jepordising your place in the national team means a lot of players will only jump ship unless they are offered a substantial increase in salary and then they will probably do it in the final stretch of their careers.

When Ireland have 3 teams in the HC QFs this season and most seasons its testiment that unless they have a massive increase in salary offer its probably better staying put.

by GunsGerms Mon 20 Jan 2014, 4:03 pm

Can you not have two different employers in that case? Is there anything to stop the IRFU offering Ulster players one wage from Ulster and another from the IRFU?

by quinsforever Mon 20 Jan 2014, 4:03 pm

and this

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/sectors/sports-stars-to-benefit-from-tax-change-1.1572370

"This relief is open to a range of sports but mostly applies to rugby players given the professional structures in place for the four provincial teams operated by the Irish Rugby Football Union – Leinster, Munster, Connacht and Ulster."

2 minutes research on the internet. you're welcome.

by geoff998rugby Mon 20 Jan 2014, 4:04 pm

quinsforever wrote:ok so lets get rid of the tax rebate then shall we, if it's not having any impact on keeping players in ireland?

good job munsterfans agrees with you wolfman. Not.

http://www.munsterfans.com/archive/index.php/t-19665.html?s=1387951308dd011bb5adefce43c20f53

So some worry about what might happen and that is proof it will happen Headscratch

As has clearly been shown here Irish players have, almost without exception decided to stay in Ireland even when they would be better off financially elsewhere.
Indded as I have shown even non Irish players playing in Ireland have come to the same conclusion.

If that is not enough evidence for you little point in continuing

by quinsforever Mon 20 Jan 2014, 4:05 pm

geoff998rugby wrote:
Golden wrote:Even with the tax rebate what SOB and co. could have gotten in France would far outstrip it so its pretty clear that money isnt the only reason to stay in Ireland. I read (rumours i know) that SOB and Heaslip were offered 500k after tax from Toulon. His new IRFU contract was reported to be around 350k. I would imagine the tax rebate had little to do with his decision.

Absolutely - quins seems determined to make a case that Irish players stay because of the tax rebate even when the evidence is the contrary.
A lot of Irish players have decided to stay in Ireland even when financially they would be better off elsewhere.

the evidence is that only 1 players has left, and he is the second highest paid player in world rugby. anything else you like to refer to as "evidence" is just your opinion on tax matters no-one actually know the answers about.

i know what only 1 player leaving makes me think about the rebate. that it has more than zero impact.

by geoff998rugby Mon 20 Jan 2014, 4:05 pm

quinsforever wrote:and this

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/sectors/sports-stars-to-benefit-from-tax-change-1.1572370

"This relief is open to a range of sports but mostly applies to rugby players given the professional structures in place for the four provincial teams operated by the Irish Rugby Football Union – Leinster, Munster, Connacht and Ulster."

2 minutes research on the internet. you're welcome.

Just lazy journalism Ulster players are not eligable !!!

by fa0019 Mon 20 Jan 2014, 4:05 pm

If you are a UK resident don't you have claim all income earned regardless of whether or not you earnt it speaking at a conference in Dubai for instance. I think if they are British residents they will have to pay British taxes on all income.

They may have to pay taxes in Ireland too on top on such fees.

by quinsforever Mon 20 Jan 2014, 4:07 pm

geoff998rugby wrote:
GunsGerms wrote:
geoff998rugby wrote:Well I can tell you Ulster rugby have looked into this and not found a way round it.
My company has also looked into it - our parent company is American.

In both cases the key is where is your main place of work - home working as a loop whole has been blocked.

If it was possible both my company and Ulster would have done it long ago.

Geoff how does it work for Ulster players that play for Ireland? They are obviously paid for their services by the IRFU and play their Ireland matches in Ireland and abroad. Surely their Ireland wages arent subject to UK taxes?

They are because their main place of work is in Belfast.
That is the key.

I think there may be a misunderstanding about central contracts that is causing some of this confusion.
As I understand it the contract is paid for by the IRFU but is with the appropriate branch i.e. it has Shane Logan and David Humphreys signature on it on the bottom not people from Dublin.

YOU DO NOT KNOW THIS. you make these declarative statements, and then say "as i understand it".

you either know or you dont. and you obviously dont. drawing parallels with your employer is 100% irrelevant.

by **Notch** Mon 20 Jan 2014, 4:07 pm

quinsforever wrote:
GunsGerms wrote:Ulster players rarely transfer to the three ROI provinces for some reason. There has never really been a marquee indigenous Ulsterman that signed for Leinster, Connacht or Munster.

Faloon, O'Connor and Boss (non indigenous) have done it but no one really good as far as I recall.

I think it is unfair though. Maybe there is some arangement that no one is aware of.

In any case given that the IRFU is the parent company of Ulster rugby it seems possible that the Ulster guys could technically be employed by an Irish company and therefore subject to Irish tax rules. I havent a clue how it works in reality though.
and neither do any of the very declarative posters on this topic here. as you say, it may well be that anyone who gets an ireland cap (which can only count as working for SI, not NI) becomes eligible for the tax rebates. especially, also as you say, as ulster branch salaries are ultimately being paid by a southern irish entity (IRFU) which sits on top of ulster branch. in other words they are working for an irish company. who knows.

Nah, we definitely don't get the tax break. I think because of specific UK laws based on taxing employees of sports clubs. I don't know, but none of our players get it.

by quinsforever Mon 20 Jan 2014, 4:08 pm

geoff998rugby wrote:
quinsforever wrote:ok so lets get rid of the tax rebate then shall we, if it's not having any impact on keeping players in ireland?

good job munsterfans agrees with you wolfman. Not.

http://www.munsterfans.com/archive/index.php/t-19665.html?s=1387951308dd011bb5adefce43c20f53

So some worry about what might happen and that is proof it will happen

As has clearly been shown here Irish players have, almost without exception decided to stay in Ireland even when they would be better off financially elsewhere.
Indded as I have shown even non Irish players playing in Ireland have come to the same conclusion.

If that is not enough evidence for you little point in continuing

stop with this. the only thing that has clearly been shown is your opinion. nothing else.

by GunsGerms Mon 20 Jan 2014, 4:09 pm

Fair enough. Believe you 100% just attempting to understand the logistics of it.

by **Notch** Mon 20 Jan 2014, 4:10 pm

Please don't turn this into some tedious willy-waving session about something as important-but-dry as taxes. If you want to debate the merits of tax laws in the UK and Ireland, and the vagaries of the all-Ireland economy and taxation, I presume there are accounting forums out there!

The point is, the tax break is one thing. There are lots of things.

by geoff998rugby Mon 20 Jan 2014, 4:10 pm

Right I'm off - cant be bothered to debate with a total tube

by quinsforever Mon 20 Jan 2014, 4:10 pm

fa0019 wrote:If you are a UK resident don't you have claim all income earned regardless of whether or not you earnt it speaking at a conference in Dubai for instance. I think if they are British residents they will have to pay British taxes on all income.

They may have to pay taxes in Ireland too on top on such fees.

no, you don't. it's very complicated. you get 7 years where as a resident, non-domicile you don't have to declare overseas earned income, after that you nominate each year to either file globally, or pay a fixed amount in order not to file globally.

like i said. it's complicated. my wife has an american passport.

by fa0019 Mon 20 Jan 2014, 4:10 pm

The IRFU will pay all their players a match fee of say 5000 euros per match right....

once paid they don't care if their players live in the UK or in Ireland. The IRFU are not the tax authorities... just a union who pays their players a portion of their salary if they play test match rugby (assuming they pay match fees???).

What tax arrangements the players are under is nothing to do with them.

by quinsforever Mon 20 Jan 2014, 4:12 pm

Notch wrote:
quinsforever wrote:
GunsGerms wrote:Ulster players rarely transfer to the three ROI provinces for some reason. There has never really been a marquee indigenous Ulsterman that signed for Leinster, Connacht or Munster.

Faloon, O'Connor and Boss (non indigenous) have done it but no one really good as far as I recall.

I think it is unfair though. Maybe there is some arangement that no one is aware of.

In any case given that the IRFU is the parent company of Ulster rugby it seems possible that the Ulster guys could technically be employed by an Irish company and therefore subject to Irish tax rules. I havent a clue how it works in reality though.
and neither do any of the very declarative posters on this topic here. as you say, it may well be that anyone who gets an ireland cap (which can only count as working for SI, not NI) becomes eligible for the tax rebates. especially, also as you say, as ulster branch salaries are ultimately being paid by a southern irish entity (IRFU) which sits on top of ulster branch. in other words they are working for an irish company. who knows.

Nah, we definitely don't get the tax break. I think because of specific UK laws based on taxing employees of sports clubs. I don't know, but none of our players get it.

it isnt't strictly a tax break. it's amounts you can claim back from southern ireland, post retirement. it's not for now, it's for later.

by SecretFly Mon 20 Jan 2014, 4:13 pm

So in the eyes of some, Irish players electing to stay in Ireland for less money than they'd get on the continent are still the devils, because they've denied a free market the opportunity to work properly?

The Irish players are not satisfied with playing in a cotton-wool League, now they want to stall the development of the game on the continent by deciding to keep their Provinces competitive with European top sides rather than rushing off to the worm on the end of the line, which would mean they'd line out against their Provinces instead. There is something rotten in the Irish psyche... there really is.
I think if one club offers you a bigger deal than another one, you should be legally compelled to accept the highest offer - or else the whole capitalist system ceases to be! Anti capitalism IS anti competition and possibly anti European free trade agreement!!!

by quinsforever Mon 20 Jan 2014, 4:14 pm

fa0019 wrote:The IRFU will pay all their players a match fee of say 5000 euros per match right....

once paid they don't care if their players live in the UK or in Ireland. The IRFU are not the tax authorities... just a union who pays their players a portion of their salary if they play test match rugby (assuming they pay match fees???).

What tax arrangements the players are under is nothing to do with them.

not true. because it was earned for performing a job outside of the uk for a non-uk employer. there is lots of flexibility here, trust me.

by **Notch** Mon 20 Jan 2014, 4:15 pm

Yes. Taxes are complicated. We get that. Lets move on before the thread enters a terminal state eh?

by quinsforever Mon 20 Jan 2014, 4:17 pm

SecretFly wrote:So in the eyes of some, Irish players electing to stay in Ireland for less money than they'd get on the continent are still the devils, because they've denied a free market the opportunity to work properly?

The Irish players are not satisfied with playing in a cotton-wool League, now they want to stall the development of the game on the continent by deciding to keep their Provinces competitive with European top sides rather than rushing off to the worm on the end of the line, which would mean they'd line out against their Provinces instead. There is something rotten in the Irish psyche... there really is.
I think if one club offers you a bigger deal than another one, you should be legally compelled to accept the highest offer - or else the whole capitalist system ceases to be! Anti capitalism IS anti competition and possibly anti European free trade agreement!!!

SF, i've got no problem with whatever the irish want to do on taxes, but i am, as usual, being attacked by several posters about whether these tax incentives even have any impact at all - which they clearly do or why would they be there? had i been irish, commenting on the tax breaks, like GG, or the munsterfans link i posted, i would not be getting grief.

there we go. i make a fairly uncontroversial point and the hysterical brigade throw down.

by **Notch** Mon 20 Jan 2014, 4:17 pm

quinsforever wrote:
fa0019 wrote:The IRFU will pay all their players a match fee of say 5000 euros per match right....

once paid they don't care if their players live in the UK or in Ireland. The IRFU are not the tax authorities... just a union who pays their players a portion of their salary if they play test match rugby (assuming they pay match fees???).

What tax arrangements the players are under is nothing to do with them.
not true. because it was earned for performing a job outside of the uk for a non-uk employer. there is lots of flexibility here, trust me.

Their employer is the IRFU-Ulster Branch, which is head-quartered at Ravenhill Rugby Ground. Not a non-UK employer.

But what about- I don't know! I don't work for them. I don't know the details.

by quinsforever Mon 20 Jan 2014, 4:19 pm

Notch wrote:Yes. Taxes are complicated. We get that. Lets move on before the thread enters a terminal state eh?

i agree. can't believe i have had to defend that the tax breaks actually are there for a reason! ridiculous.

by **rodders** Mon 20 Jan 2014, 4:19 pm

This really is incredibly simple... I have no idea what some of you are waffling on about - there are thousands of companies which trade in the UK and Ireland and people working cross border is extremely common - this isn't North Korea you know .... Cool

http://www.borderpeople.info/index/work/browse/browse-detail.htm?objId=7269

by fa0019 Mon 20 Jan 2014, 4:20 pm

SecretFly wrote:So in the eyes of some, Irish players electing to stay in Ireland for less money than they'd get on the continent are still the devils, because they've denied a free market the opportunity to work properly?

The Irish players are not satisfied with playing in a cotton-wool League, now they want to stall the development of the game on the continent by deciding to keep their Provinces competitive with European top sides rather than rushing off to the worm on the end of the line, which would mean they'd line out against their Provinces instead. There is something rotten in the Irish psyche... there really is.
I think if one club offers you a bigger deal than another one, you should be legally compelled to accept the highest offer - or else the whole capitalist system ceases to be! Anti capitalism IS anti competition and possibly anti European free trade agreement!!!

So you'd be forced to move because club London offers more then club dublin for instance by say 50000 euros?

So will this have tax implications, currency fluctuations, travelling costs, additional education expenses (say for family developed under separate language and system) and then the loss of things like family and friends support network????

Money is only one thing to consider when moving countries.

by ME-109 Mon 20 Jan 2014, 4:21 pm

rodders wrote:This really is incredibly simple... I have no idea what some of you are waffling on about - there are thousands of companies which trade in the UK and Ireland and people working cross border is extremely common - this isn't North Korea you know ....

http://www.borderpeople.info/index/work/browse/browse-detail.htm?objId=7269

You sure about that?

by **Notch** Mon 20 Jan 2014, 4:21 pm

fa0019-

Whoosh.

by **Notch** Mon 20 Jan 2014, 4:22 pm

ME-109 wrote:
rodders wrote:This really is incredibly simple... I have no idea what some of you are waffling on about - there are thousands of companies which trade in the UK and Ireland and people working cross border is extremely common - this isn't North Korea you know ....

http://www.borderpeople.info/index/work/browse/browse-detail.htm?objId=7269

You sure about that?

It's not, but I try to approach my role here as moderator as if it is.

by quinsforever Mon 20 Jan 2014, 4:22 pm

i take it all back. obviously the reason all the players stay at ulster (which is the only argument offered here in favour of the tax incentives not working - which we do not know either) is because they love Ireland Shocked

by **Notch** Mon 20 Jan 2014, 4:23 pm

Well, they love playing for Ireland. And Ulster. Thats a BIG factor no?

Maybe take a deep breath and step back from the brink here...

by **rodders** Mon 20 Jan 2014, 4:28 pm

ME-109 wrote:
rodders wrote:This really is incredibly simple... I have no idea what some of you are waffling on about - there are thousands of companies which trade in the UK and Ireland and people working cross border is extremely common - this isn't North Korea you know ....

http://www.borderpeople.info/index/work/browse/browse-detail.htm?objId=7269

You sure about that?

Well I suppose the yanks regularly gang up with our Southern neighbours to bully our resident dictators...sorry I mean political leaders ... so there are some parallels .... Run

by GunsGerms Mon 20 Jan 2014, 4:38 pm

God bless America.

by **Notch** Mon 20 Jan 2014, 4:44 pm

Well, this is going well eh? Smile

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