France v England - Paris - 01/02/2014

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French XXIII

1. T Domingo 2. B Kayser 3. N Mas
4. A Flanquart 5. P Pape
6. Y Nyanga 7. B Le Roux 8. L Picamoles
9. J-M Doussin 10. J Plisson
12. W Fofana 13. M Basteraud
11. M Medard 15. B Dulin 14. Y Huget

16. D Sarzewski 17. Y Forestier 18. R Slimani 19. Y Maestri 20. A Burban 21. D Chouly 22. M Machenaud 23. G Fickou

England XXIII

1. J Marler
2. D Hartley
3. D Cole
4. J Launchbury
5. C Lawes
6. T Wood
7. C Robshaw
8. B Vunipola
9. D Care
10. O Farrell
11. J May
12. B Twelvetrees
13. L Burrell
14. J Nowell
15. M Brown

16. T Youngs 17. M Vunipola 18. H Thomas 19. D Attwood 20. B Morgan 21. L Dickson 22. B Barritt 23. A Goode

Great game, never lacked any historical crunch... Wonderful to see a bit of flair returning to France. England did very well considering they are missing so many of their star players.

It's hard to judge a teams potential on their nervy start to the championship. A first win instils confidence a first loss can inspire massive improvements. Though only if that team are humbled noughts know why they lost and what they have to do to turn there fortunes.

It was great to see France from game one looking interested. If they continue with intensity and enthusiasm, they're well on their way to another GS given the fixtures.

This was always going to be the key game for both sides. Allez les Bleus.

Gutted just gutted.

But For me England can look back on that game and take a few positive from it.

But the props were useless, cole has lost the ability to scrummage Marler never had it anyway and mako has to go on a diet as he is carrying too much weight.

Lawes for me played his best game in an England shirt, and with the players that we were missing England have the makings of a very good squad but I feel we have to try someone else instead of Farrell at 10, I accept he wasn't awful but we need to try a more attacking 10.

Also watch the bounce of the ball lads!

Nachos, Lawes lineout work really impressed me. I'd be tempted to look at starting him alongside Launchberry against the Welsh or Irish where Attwoods bulk may come in handy. Joe looked a little off the pace against France but against less physical packs is the right choice.

What players were they missing? Foden for Nowell, Tuillagi for Barritt and maybe Corbiserio if his knees can take 50 minutes and can adapt to the new scrum laws?

Lawes was brilliant but its the old story from him ...if he plays like that he cant last 70 minutes.

Great game but I am desperately disappointed England didnt win a game that they really should have! Ok England did make some errors in defence early on but France were fortunate to score the 2 early tries after kicking the ball away on attack.

England controlled the vast majority of the match winning so many of the collisions, Billy Vunipola stood out but the whole pack were good again. Danny Care was excellent, he must have nailed down the shirt for the whole tournament with that performance. Farrell kicked well tactically and whilst he is not a running flyhalf, he is a very good passer of the ball. The centres and outside backs will be scrutinised for a lack of penetration, some credit has to go to the french defence it was well organised and very well disciplined. Such a shame to see Johnny May go off so early, it did affect the balance (and pace) of the back line.

Area of concern, the scrum. Had England had any ascendency in the scrum I believe they would have taken the game away from france. Also I mentioned the lack of penetration, its not all the fault of the backs, France surrendered a lot of possession denying the English backs the opportunity to attack with turnover ball. If the backs are going to look exciting the pack will have to stretch the opposition defence, they struggled to do that as france were ahead on the score board and didnt overcommit to rucks maintaining a strong defensive line.

Great try from France at the end but considering the control England had they should have denied France the chance of a crucial last minute score. I agree with others who have questioned the wisdom of replacements for replacements sake as it clearly affects continuity at the set piece, I suppose the argument is that you need fresh defenders on the field, although that didnt prevent france scoring a try at the death.

So for next week I would like to see England use the maul a bit more often and perform better at scrum time, if they do this I am sure the same personnel in the back line can impress, no selection changes required.

I am obviously disappointed but agree that there are positives to take from the match. I've only watched once so these are just my initial impressions from watching "live." I thought the way that England came back into it well after what looked a very nervy and error strewn start showed some character. I thought Care looked hungry to impress and was out to seize his chance with Youngs out of favour. Thought Burrell looked good but wasn't so sure about Nowell. Lawes was awesome as was Billy (?) Vunipola IMO. However the French were well up for this and never looked like they would capitulate as they may have done in previous years. To me they looked able to seize on any opportunity or mistake and make England pay. Well played France. This is going to be a tight one I think now more than ever.

Scrumpy wrote:Gutted just gutted.

But For me England can look back on that game and take a few positive from it.

But the props were useless, cole has lost the ability to scrummage Marler never had it anyway and mako has to go on a diet as he is carrying too much weight.

Lawes for me played his best game in an England shirt, and with the players that we were missing England have the makings of a very good squad but I feel we have to try someone else instead of Farrell at 10, I accept he wasn't awful but we need to try a more attacking 10.

Also watch the bounce of the ball lads!

I warned everyone about the French scrum, I think we'll see them destroy a few scrums elsewhere. Domingo is back and fit and I'd back him against every TH in the world. How can a loosehead scrummage if his TH is being eaten alive?

I think we'll see a massive step up from the pack at scrum time next week. Likewise more mauls used offensively. Rowntree will be out to make a statement after the way it went yesterday.

Our defense of the French maul was very good and hardly gave them anything at least.

Can anybody sensibly tell me why Brad Barritt was anywhere near this game?

He has recently returned from long term injury and has not shown anywhere near enough to automatically walk back into this squad.

Very Poor selection.

Alex Goode is a different conundrum, however equally he is definitely a coach's favourite.

The backs bench should have been Young’s, Ford and either Eastmond or Watson.

Farrell had a good game; sadly however I have to draw a negative against his lone selection when he has a known cramping issue. It’s not the first time this has happened; actually if memory serves it’s the third time in England shirt. Why has this not been remedied by the medical/nutritional team?

Finally as a team we need to collectively grow some as I don't think there is a Johnson'eske captain within the squad that will lead the line. It reminds me of the numerous times Johnson was either injured or more often than not banned and we lost all those grand slam deciders because mentally 'nanny' wasn't there.

I know it’s a different time, different circumstances, however it would not hurt for either Hartley or Wood to give a different voice, otherwise we're back to the situation what if Robshaw gets injured?

Finally finally, what's the situation regards Rob Webber? Youngs obviously is a nervous thrower when he first comes on - not the first to take time to steady himself and find the target - and was Hartley so desperately knackered anyway? Webber played for Bath yesterday, not the Saxons, though is part of the 6 nation’s squad. I thought form wise he was going well and so would like to see him in a match day squad. Otherwise it’s going to be down under which really is becoming too late.

Yes there's more....Dan Cole needs a break. For me it’s a question of form and too much rugby. 18/24 months ago when he was sparring/sharing with Castro he was firing on all cylinders and showing his real worth. Right now he looks knackered. With Wilson injured it's a really tough call because the last thing you won't to do is run him into the ground....don't know, however if his form persists then I would definitely rest him over the summer.

I have a few questions about yesterday's matrch.  Was watching in a pub and could not hear the broadcast, only see te tv screens.    
Was there any explanation why Hartley and Care went off?  Thought both were terrific and should have stayed on.  
Why did Nowell go off?  Made for a pretty bizarre back line which may, or may not, have contributed to France's late score.
Why did Care kick that drop goal?  There was a penalty, and an easy 3 points coming, and England were moving forwards.  Seemed to me the thing was to try a play to the try line even if it went awry.

Thanks gents,

Nowell, I believe, was injured. Hartley and Care went off, I think, because Lancaster seems to have this habit of just emptying the bench for the sake of it. I certainly wouldn't have taken those two off.

Nowell had better have been injured, otherwise it's the single worst sub I have seen

Duty281 wrote:Nowell, I believe, was injured. Hartley and Care went off, I think, because Lancaster seems to have this habit of just emptying the bench for the sake of it. I certainly wouldn't have taken those two off.

Thought he had the game won and keeping them fresh for more exertions next week?  Nobody was thinking French wonder-strike - they just didn't look like they had it in them to catch England off-guard like that.  But I suppose that's the beauty of catching a side off-guard - they're not expecting it.

quinsforever wrote:you saying ashton defensively would have done better than Nowell?

Nowell put in some huge tackles on Parisse and the big french runners. Didnt miss a single one as far as i could see. Was Goode who completely missed a stationary Huget (v reminiscent of Ashton actually..didnt go up far enough or stay back far enough, and went weakly high in the attempted tackle).

That would explain his bad start, running all the way from Cardiff to Paris in half and hour, must make him the quickest England back ever.   

SecretFly wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Nowell, I believe, was injured. Hartley and Care went off, I think, because Lancaster seems to have this habit of just emptying the bench for the sake of it. I certainly wouldn't have taken those two off.

Thought he had the game won and keeping them fresh for more exertions next week?  Nobody was thinking French wonder-strike - they just didn't look like they had it in them to catch England off-guard like that.  But I suppose that's the beauty of catching a side off-guard - they're not expecting it.

Then as we were winnjng by less than a converted try it was still a collosally stupid thing to do

ChequeredJersey wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Nowell, I believe, was injured. Hartley and Care went off, I think, because Lancaster seems to have this habit of just emptying the bench for the sake of it. I certainly wouldn't have taken those two off.

Thought he had the game won and keeping them fresh for more exertions next week?  Nobody was thinking French wonder-strike - they just didn't look like they had it in them to catch England off-guard like that.  But I suppose that's the beauty of catching a side off-guard - they're not expecting it.

Then as we were winnjng by less than a converted try it was still a collosally stupid thing to do

That's coaching...balancing your objectives and personel.  It's a five game series.  And of course nobody can say the French wouldn't have scored their try anyway, even had the players stayed on. It appears stupid now using hindsight - had England won the game, like they looked to be doing right up until that French run-though that looked so easy in the execution (England weren't expecting it) then nobody would be talking about player changing blunders now.

Bringing Nowell off for Barritt unless forced by injury was inexcusable. Burrell finishing his first cap at wing alongside Brown at wing and Goode- all they ever had to do was get it wide and we were screwed!

Were you saying that at the time though, Chequered? Honestly now!

I assumed he must of been injured. And yes, when Care was taken off I was livid

okay so.............. livid it is then

But that's more because I wanted him to get a full 80 to play himself into the shirt in all honesty

He was starting to look like our Danny Care and I thought he'd only have improved

Excellent game. Unlucky England, I thought ye were the better overall but both sides gave mixed performances. Delighted France won though as it prevents England building early momentum with Wales and Ireland having to go to Twickers.

A game of 4 halves:
1. The game was won and lost in the 1st 25 mins
2. England could have sneaked in the 2nd half, altho didn’t deserve to
3. The English pack was mostly very good – the best unit on the pitch
4. The English backs have far too many journeymen and wouldn’t make a side in the IRB top 6 or 7

In the 1st half-an-hour every time France were in the English half we panicked liked school kids – all very embarrassing. Launchbury failed to take the KO, there was no-one ready to step in. Launchbury couldn’t make a clean pass from the LO he won. Lawes gave away a 3-pointer. 12T and Vuni couldn’t perform the single most basic part of rugby – a pass and catch…… The captain and coaches failed to instil a bit of discipline and composure. Not surprising that the 2 French tries came immediately after English mistakes plus a sprinkling of individual brilliance and lucky bounces. The English pack were very good in most of the 2nd half (after the game was already lost).

Care should be told that he can’t box kick and therefore we’d all be grateful if he did a little less of it – although overall he was pretty good. Farrell kicked away too much possession for my liking but overall had a good game. The new boys were a mixed bag but both Nowell and Burrell showed enough to persevere with. Brown was a bit dodgy in the 1st half – he was too easily wrong-footed for the 1st France try, but grew better and better as the game continued.

Now what are we to do with the boy 12T – everyone’s great hope for a playmaking centre? Only I’ve never seen it – poor passing, missed tackles, running to ground too easily, failing to give the back 3 anything. What does everyone see that I don’t – he is an average club player and no more? Start with Brad and you'll see he's limited but still 10x the player that 12T is. And Goode just has an unfortunate name – should be Barely-Average, the man has so little pace I just wonder if he put his legs on the wrong way. England won’t win anything meaningful with these 2.

A mention must go to the English wingers – quite possibly the most girly bunch of balsa-wood men you’d find. Forget about crunching tackles, it seems just a nasty word will have them hobbling to the physio table. Only Ashton (and perhaps Nowell) seem to be made of muscle and sinew. Criticize Ashton’s defence if you like, but he does stay on the pitch for than 5 minutes. So Ashton, Nowell & Brown it is then.

Then we get to the bench, or rather the use of it. TY certainly is an impact player – when he comes on the scrum and LO collapse. He runs around a lot though – I guess Stewie must like it. Here’s the thing Tom – you’re a better centre than hooker, and we need centres, so do us all a favour and change back. Dickson is just mediocre. And bringing Brad on, only to move Burrell to wing is the same buffoonery as when he used to bring Flood on as a centre for 20 minutes. One of Stewie’s weakest skills is his timing and selection of the bench – he truly doesn’t have a clue. That and a complete misunderstanding of what a back 3 should comprise of.

And Stewie , please don’t turn to the Saxons for inspiration – a team chock-full of young exciting talent that could only manage a loss and a draw. If they’d played the equivalent NZ or SA teams there would have been carnage.

Stewie’s here ‘til the RWC and his done an excellent job of making us to a team that can routinely hit 2nd in the 6N. It’ll take another better coach to take England any further. Roll on 2019.

Other than that I really enjoyed the game. Well done France.

ChequeredJersey wrote:But that's more because I wanted him to get a full 80 to play himself into the shirt in all honesty

You know I am a Saints fan. But I was still shocked and disappointed (ie. cursed once or twice) when Dickson came on. When a player is going great, as Care was doing, why change? Same with Hartley. Having watched Burrell all season, I was concerned about his ability to defend at 13 because of the more space to cover than 12. Really happy he proved me wrong. But he has never played on the wing, at least as far as I have seen. Two very dfferent positions.

Wait for the line-up for next week: Lancaster, who I sincerely believe hears voices in his head telling him to play peole out of position, will have Tom Youngs on the wing (he is good in the loose).

Barney McGrew did it wrote:A game of 4 halves:
1. The game was won and lost in the 1st 25 mins
2. England could have sneaked in the 2nd half, altho didn’t deserve to
3. The English pack was mostly very good – the best unit on the pitch
4. The English backs have far too many journeymen and wouldn’t make a side in the IRB top 6 or 7

In the 1st half-an-hour every time France were in the English half we panicked liked school kids – all very embarrassing. Launchbury failed to take the KO, there was no-one ready to step in. Launchbury couldn’t make a clean pass from the LO he won. Lawes gave away a 3-pointer. 12T and Vuni couldn’t perform the single most basic part of rugby – a pass and catch…… The captain and coaches failed to instil a bit of discipline and composure. Not surprising that the 2 French tries came immediately after English mistakes plus a sprinkling of individual brilliance and lucky bounces. The English pack were very good in most of the 2nd half (after the game was already lost).

Care should be told that he can’t box kick and therefore we’d all be grateful if he did a little less of it – although overall he was pretty good. Farrell kicked away too much possession for my liking but overall had a good game. The new boys were a mixed bag but both Nowell and Burrell showed enough to persevere with. Brown was a bit dodgy in the 1st half – he was too easily wrong-footed for the 1st France try, but grew better and better as the game continued.

Now what are we to do with the boy 12T – everyone’s great hope for a playmaking centre? Only I’ve never seen it – poor passing, missed tackles, running to ground too easily, failing to give the back 3 anything. What does everyone see that I don’t – he is an average club player and no more?  Start with Brad and you'll see he's limited but still 10x the player that 12T is. And Goode just has an unfortunate name – should be Barely-Average, the man has so little pace I just wonder if he put his legs on the wrong way. England won’t win anything meaningful with these 2.

A mention must go to the English wingers – quite possibly the most girly bunch of balsa-wood men you’d find. Forget about crunching tackles, it seems just a nasty word will have them hobbling to the physio table. Only Ashton (and perhaps Nowell) seem to be made of muscle and sinew. Criticize Ashton’s defence if you like, but he does stay on the pitch for than 5 minutes. So Ashton, Nowell & Brown it is then.

Then we get to the bench, or rather the use of it. TY certainly is an impact player – when he comes on the scrum and LO collapse. He runs around a lot though – I guess Stewie must like it. Here’s the thing Tom – you’re a better centre than hooker, and we need centres, so do us all a favour and change back. Dickson is just mediocre. And bringing Brad on, only to move Burrell to wing is the same buffoonery as when he used to bring Flood on as a centre for 20 minutes. One of Stewie’s weakest skills is his timing and selection of the bench – he truly doesn’t have a clue. That and a complete misunderstanding of what a back 3 should comprise of.

And Stewie , please don’t turn to the Saxons for inspiration – a team chock-full of young exciting talent that could only manage a loss and a draw. If they’d played the equivalent NZ or SA teams there would have been carnage.

Stewie’s here ‘til the RWC and his done an excellent job of making us to a team that can routinely hit 2nd in the 6N. It’ll take another better coach to take England any further. Roll on 2019.

Other than that I really enjoyed the game. Well done France.

Quite critical of Lancaster's tactical and strategic nouse and his selections there...!

If England don't improve do you think he may be replaced before the RWC?

"If England don't improve do you think he may be replaced before the RWC?"

well most think he has improved- so there is no pressure to drop SL.

Coaches/Managers only get dropped if there is pressure to drop them,. Most can see a decent upward curve from England so No SL wont be sacked.

SL made a mistake yesterday in subbing players to save them because we looked so comfortable..

Tbh that was as comfortable as I have ever been during the end of a close game.. We had literally knocked the stuffing out of France and I could only see one winner..

It was a massive shock to lose the way we did..

Look SL needs to take the blame- But he learns. He is not a stubborn man..

Yes yes its a cliche. But you learn more from your defeats

The funny thing is that France did exactly the reverse last year.. They subbed players late and handed it to england...

Did they? England took the lead when France had only made one substitution and never handed it back.

well no i think we would have still won. But they certainly made a few bad subs that were baffling..

Does anyone have a link to the full game? Missed a lot of the second half, I think when we were playing better (typical).

mystiroakey wrote:well no i think we would have still won. But they certainly made a few bad subs that were baffling..

Fair enough, but it wouldn't have been through complacency or saving them for the following fixture, as they were behind and it came just before a non-Six Nations week anyway. More a case of rolling the dice to make something happen.

mystiroakey wrote:Tbh that was as comfortable as I have ever been during the end of a close game.. We had literally knocked the stuffing out of France and I could only see one winner..

It was a massive shock to lose the way we did..

I think that is a bit of an over statement, England didn't look like scoring more tries than they did, but France always looked sharp in attack, particularly in the backs. They scored three smart and well worked tries that took advantage of England's inexperienced backline.

I agree that the substitution of Care was madness, Dickson is a poor placement. Ben youngs as to come back into the 23, for England to do well.

Man of the match in the England team was Billy Vunipula. He was sublime, he looked an attack threat with physicality, pace and good hands.

I am a big admirer of Tom Wood but didn't rate him yesterday.

England need some spark behind. They need to try a different flyhalf, George Ford at least needs to come off the bench in Edinburgh, if not start.

Have you watched te French try again though? It's far from any genius. England just got horribly compressed, leaving a huge overlap on the wing. Once France moved it England's scrambling defense was in disarray. Nobody knew what they should be doing and several tackling opportunities that would've shut it down went beginning.

Farrell was excellent yesterday. Can't see any sensible reason for not starting him at Murrayfield, which is usually a horribly tight fixture for us. His kicking is vital and the last thing our backline needs is to miss another experienced player. He was playing flat and varying his passing well yesterday in any case.

maestegmafia wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:Tbh that was as comfortable as I have ever been during the end of a close game.. We had literally knocked the stuffing out of France and I could only see one winner..

It was a massive shock to lose the way we did..

I think that is a bit of an over statement, England didn't look like scoring more tries than they did, but France always looked sharp in attack, particularly in the backs. They scored three smart and well worked tries that took advantage of England's inexperienced backline.

I agree that the substitution of Care was madness, Dickson is a poor placement. Ben youngs as to come back into the 23, for England to do well.

Man of the match in the England team was Billy Vunipula. He was sublime, he looked an attack threat with physicality, pace and good hands.

I am a big admirer of Tom Wood but didn't rate him yesterday.

England need some spark behind. They need to try a different flyhalf, George Ford at least needs to come off the bench in Edinburgh, if not start.

Its not an over statement its the way i felt.

France had zero spark second half maes. They had nothing tbh. The try came out of england just thinking they had already won., Someone mentioned yesterday that faith got france the try. That was the perfect summary- they seemed half dead

The timing of the subs cost england, it's seems to becoming a habit of SL to make subs when they are not needed,

ChequeredJersey wrote:Though being espn stats, I still wouldn't trust them and wished the opta stats were more freely available

The ESPN stats are provided by Opta.

Doh!

I did think that Care was looking a bit tired when he was subbed - he'd been a bit slow to the breakdown a couple of times just before he was subbed, iirc. I think it was, as many have said, that England simply didn't have the experience to close out the game.

Don't like the 60 min substitution habit though. It does seem to take sides off the boil on a regular basis.

Keith Wood called it right -

The 2 best performances over the first weekend were from both teams competing in this match.

maestegmafia wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:Tbh that was as comfortable as I have ever been during the end of a close game.. We had literally knocked the stuffing out of France and I could only see one winner..

It was a massive shock to lose the way we did..

I think that is a bit of an over statement, England didn't look like scoring more tries than they did, but France always looked sharp in attack, particularly in the backs. They scored three smart and well worked tries that took advantage of England's inexperienced backline.

I agree that the substitution of Care was madness, Dickson is a poor placement. Ben youngs as to come back into the 23, for England to do well.

Man of the match in the England team was Billy Vunipula. He was sublime, he looked an attack threat with physicality, pace and good hands.

I am a big admirer of Tom Wood but didn't rate him yesterday.

England need some spark behind. They need to try a different flyhalf, George Ford at least needs to come off the bench in Edinburgh, if not start.

Don't agree with that at all (bar the 3rd try), the first try was a kick that was half charged down and then bounced in the only way possible to wrong foot Brown and at the same time land perfectly in Hugets hands. 9 times out of 10 that ball bounces to touch or Brown, likewise the 2nd try where the ball bounced over the 2 players we had there and perfectly to Huget again.

France had the luck of bounce which evaded england on 2 key occasions; when Care charged it down and kicked on the ball refused to sit up for him which would have seen him away and at the end when we charged down the french box kick only for the ball to fly 10 metres down the pitch to the cover, had that fallen shorter it would have been an english 3 on 1 15 metres from the line.

GloriousEmpire wrote:Have you watched te French try again though? It's far from any genius. England just got horribly compressed, leaving a huge overlap on the wing. Once France moved it England's scrambling defense was in disarray. Nobody knew what they should be doing and several tackling opportunities that would've shut it down went beginning.

Exactly.  This is what happens with :
a 12 playing 13 is moved to wing,
so that a 12 can come in and play 13,
with a fullback on the other wing.
And where were England beaten?  Out wide.  Shock.

Question:  Who was in charge of organising the defense?

doctor_grey wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:Have you watched te French try again though? It's far from any genius. England just got horribly compressed, leaving a huge overlap on the wing. Once France moved it England's scrambling defense was in disarray. Nobody knew what they should be doing and several tackling opportunities that would've shut it down went beginning.

Exactly.  This is what happens with :
a 12 playing 13 is moved to wing,
so that a 12 can come in and play 13,
with a fullback on the other wing.
And where were England beaten?  Out wide.  Shock.

Question:  Who was in charge of organising the defense?

I was screamign at the TV for someone to bite the bullet and just dive on the ball at the ruck. We were in disarray in defence and the french kept getting quick ball. If we had just sacrificed one player to kill the ball and give us time to regroup, then i think 14 men could have held out the french for 4 minutes.

belovedfrosties wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:Have you watched te French try again though? It's far from any genius. England just got horribly compressed, leaving a huge overlap on the wing. Once France moved it England's scrambling defense was in disarray. Nobody knew what they should be doing and several tackling opportunities that would've shut it down went beginning.

Exactly.  This is what happens with :
a 12 playing 13 is moved to wing,
so that a 12 can come in and play 13,
with a fullback on the other wing.
And where were England beaten?  Out wide.  Shock.

Question:  Who was in charge of organising the defense?

I was screamign at the TV for someone to bite the bullet and just dive on the ball at the ruck.  We were in disarray in defence and the french kept getting quick ball.  If we had just sacrificed one player to kill the ball and give us time to regroup, then i think 14 men could have held out the french for 4 minutes.

Again comes down to experience doesn't it. You can bet the likes of a Moody, Easter or Tindall would have all killed that move off and taken the yellow with head held high if needed.

We'll get there though

Yep. The old English spirit at play.

Cowshot wrote:I did think that Care was looking a bit tired when he was subbed - he'd been a bit slow to the breakdown a couple of times just before he was subbed, iirc. I think it was, as many have said, that England simply didn't have the experience to close out the game.

Don't like the 60 min substitution habit though. It does seem to take sides off the boil on a regular basis.

Could it be that the powers didn't think much of Care doing the drop goal, when they were hoping for more than 3 points

yappysnap wrote:

belovedfrosties wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:Have you watched te French try again though? It's far from any genius. England just got horribly compressed, leaving a huge overlap on the wing. Once France moved it England's scrambling defense was in disarray. Nobody knew what they should be doing and several tackling opportunities that would've shut it down went beginning.

Exactly.  This is what happens with :
a 12 playing 13 is moved to wing,
so that a 12 can come in and play 13,
with a fullback on the other wing.
And where were England beaten?  Out wide.  Shock.

Question:  Who was in charge of organising the defense?

I was screamign at the TV for someone to bite the bullet and just dive on the ball at the ruck.  We were in disarray in defence and the french kept getting quick ball.  If we had just sacrificed one player to kill the ball and give us time to regroup, then i think 14 men could have held out the french for 4 minutes.

Again comes down to experience doesn't it. You can bet the likes of a Moody, Easter or Tindall would have all killed that move off and taken the yellow with head held high if needed.

We'll get there though

Isn't this the captain's job?  To make the key decisions at the moment things come unglued?  And if not him, then someone with the courage to make the decsison and not worry about keeping their place if it fails.