Peter O'Mahony is a God (in Munster) - but is he actually any good?

First topic message reminder :

Liam Toland, former Munster backrow doesnt really rate him right now and neither do I. Do you and why?

"Peter O’Mahony is an interesting character who is developing into a fine leader. I fear, however, that his combative style is stunting his rugby playing progress. He has all the tools to be world class but often gets bogged down in street fighting. IRB Player of the Year Kieran Read is what O’Mahony should be striving for – broaden your game."
-Liam Toland
http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/just-who-are-we-this-six-nations-is-a-real-chance-to-find-our-personality-1.1665970?page=2

Hes touted as a fine leader having captained at all levels at some point but is that enough to pick him?

Onfield he is all fire and brimstone and always looks like he is "starting" but for me he is a bit like the forward version of Luke Fitzgerald. Plenty of skill/talent but clueless when it comes to applying it to certain situations. All in all a fairly ineffective player in my opinion. A little more composure and intellegent rugby would go a long way for both players.

SecretFly wrote:

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:The two eyed fan knows that this isn't how POM has played for Ireland in the past.  I was an arch-critic, and obviously unfairly so.  I thought POM was a two bit Tom Croft impersonator who hid out in the backs looking for the big carries.  And he didn't do it very well.  The criticism was well merited from those of us outside Munster who saw he was not the same animal in green as he was in red.  

A player needs exposure to International before they become natural Internationals.  Some of them have the exposure and never get there...others do - eventually.  But expecting POM to shoot out of the blocks, all guns blazing and be the same player in green as he was in Red from the off is a little too much expectancy pressure put on a young player.

This last week saw many Ulster fans suggest Marshall shouldn't have been dropped for D'arcy after his game against Scotland.  Some of the rest of us said, yeah, Marshall is getting there bit by bit but for this big important game against the Champions it's better to let D'arcy back in.

Same argument.  Ulster fans see all that is good in Marshall - others see a lot of good but still some honing to be done.  A player developing nicely as an International... but not fully there yet.

Sorry Fly, this doesn't stack up to any serious analysis.  POM is excelling now, not because he had exposure to the international game, but because he is playing in a role that suits him.  He has the skillset to be in the role he is playing now.  He didn't have it to stand out wide in the 12/13 channel to carry the ball.  He is a good ball carrier in closer quarters.  Quick feet, quick brain, he can make room for himself and offload to others.  Those are his strengths and now a coach is playing to them.  It is such basic, basic stuff.  It makes me sad about how badly Kidney wasted the talent he had at his disposal.  

Exposure to international rugby helps.  Of course it does.  But for arguments sake, if Ireland played with the same gameplan and TOD played instead of Henry for example, he probably would have been equally effective.  Schmidt has laid the foundation for good players to play well.  That is the key to POM's success. If Kidney was still Irish coach, POM would be doing the same things that made him (and others, I don't want to single him out) utterly ineffective. No amount of exposure to international rugby would remedy it. He would just be more experienced at failing at this standard of rugby.

Nachos Jones wrote:I clearly remember that last 6N for Ireland was a shambles but 1 player walked away from every match he played with credit and that was POM. SOB is arguably the best player Ireland have but he has some very off games, POM is consistently performing. His runs, defence and work at the rucks is simply astonishing. No better player in this 6N so far (Lawes and Vunipola come close).

Agreed...his game this year is no different and his work at the breakdown last year was outstanding as well as his all round game. In addition it can be argued that while the rest of the team were falling to pieces he dragged the team over the line both times against the US and Canada through sheer will.

Meh the lulster brigade have always tried to be disregard him off hand. Also there is all this Munster passion shoite..POM just improves his game week in week out. Where he is poor one week he will have improved by the next and as I said about a year ago make him Captain as soon as possible.

RE SOB. Henry has been effective but thats about it. TOD isnt good enough in my opinion (yet) for international so I think SOB has to come back in. There is all this bs about balance. How can you say the its balanced when our 7 is ineffectual at the breakdown (good tackling though) and our 6 is winning all the turnovers...wasnt that the issue previously?

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:

Sorry Fly, this doesn't stack up to any serious analysis.  POM is excelling now, not because he had exposure to the international game, but because he is playing in a role that suits him.  He has the skillset to be in the role he is playing now.  He didn't have it to stand out wide in the 12/13 channel to carry the ball.  He is a good ball carrier in closer quarters.  Quick feet, quick brain, he can make room for himself and offload to others.  Those are his strengths and now a coach is playing to them.  It is such basic, basic stuff.  It makes me sad about how badly Kidney wasted the talent he had at his disposal.  

Exposure to international rugby helps.  Of course it does.  But for arguments sake, if Ireland played with the same gameplan and TOD played instead of Henry for example, he probably would have been equally effective.  Schmidt has laid the foundation for good players to play well.  That is the key to POM's success.  If Kidney was still Irish coach, POM would be doing the same things that made him (and others, I don't want to single him out) utterly ineffective.  No amount of exposure to international rugby would remedy it.  He would just be more experienced at failing at this standard of rugby.  

I agree that a coach dictates often how effective his players are.  That isn't what you were saying though.  You were saying you couldn't see what Munster fans were seeing when POM was part of a Kidney team.  You didn't blame Kidney for his lurking in the background - but him.

I say I see the same ability to see things and not see things all through the Provincial fan base.  Their guy can do little wrong, the other Provincials need to pull up their socks.

I even said about yesterday's game that it was noticeable on the irishv Welsh thread how some fans began in all doom and gloom mode, worrying about the players who shouldn't be there and the ones who should.  Schmidt doesn't care what we think, he's the coach and he'll pick his players for certain games.  And if he picks them, he trusts them.

I repeat though, exposure to International standard rugby creates most Internationals - they don't walk in with two guns a blazin'.  They learn International tempo and expectations.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:The two eyed fan knows that this isn't how POM has played for Ireland in the past.  I was an arch-critic, and obviously unfairly so.  I thought POM was a two bit Tom Croft impersonator who hid out in the backs looking for the big carries.  And he didn't do it very well.  The criticism was well merited from those of us outside Munster who saw he was not the same animal in green as he was in red.  

A player needs exposure to International before they become natural Internationals.  Some of them have the exposure and never get there...others do - eventually.  But expecting POM to shoot out of the blocks, all guns blazing and be the same player in green as he was in Red from the off is a little too much expectancy pressure put on a young player.

This last week saw many Ulster fans suggest Marshall shouldn't have been dropped for D'arcy after his game against Scotland.  Some of the rest of us said, yeah, Marshall is getting there bit by bit but for this big important game against the Champions it's better to let D'arcy back in.

Same argument.  Ulster fans see all that is good in Marshall - others see a lot of good but still some honing to be done.  A player developing nicely as an International... but not fully there yet.

Sorry Fly, this doesn't stack up to any serious analysis.  POM is excelling now, not because he had exposure to the international game, but because he is playing in a role that suits him.  He has the skillset to be in the role he is playing now.  He didn't have it to stand out wide in the 12/13 channel to carry the ball.  He is a good ball carrier in closer quarters.  Quick feet, quick brain, he can make room for himself and offload to others.  Those are his strengths and now a coach is playing to them.  It is such basic, basic stuff.  It makes me sad about how badly Kidney wasted the talent he had at his disposal.  

Exposure to international rugby helps.  Of course it does.  But for arguments sake, if Ireland played with the same gameplan and TOD played instead of Henry for example, he probably would have been equally effective.  Schmidt has laid the foundation for good players to play well.  That is the key to POM's success.  If Kidney was still Irish coach, POM would be doing the same things that made him (and others, I don't want to single him out) utterly ineffective.  No amount of exposure to international rugby would remedy it.  He would just be more experienced at failing at this standard of rugby.  

oh ffs...regardless of how he now plays for Ireland he has been playing that well for Munster in that role for the past couple of years and thanks he has been very effective (for both Munster and Ireland) pity about other players though (as well as the previous coach)

ME-109 wrote:

Meh the lulster brigade have always tried to be disregard him off hand. Also there is all this Munster passion shoite..

It might be shoite but it's a true version of shoite. Just ask Paul O'Connell, he's been quite verbal in the notion of Schmidt trying to control the natural impulses (and positive ones) of passion - and how it took time for some players to ease up on their ideas that passion will do. Passion plus attention to techincal detail, all through a match.. is what is required. O'Connell's words, not mine.

SecretFly wrote:

ME-109 wrote:

Meh the lulster brigade have always tried to be disregard him off hand. Also there is all this Munster passion shoite..

It might be shoite but it's a true version of shoite.  Just ask Paul O'Connell, he's been quite verbal in the notion of Schmidt trying to control the natural impulses (and positive ones) of passion - and how it took time for some players to ease up on their ideas that passion will do.  Passion plus attention to techincal detail, all through a match.. is what is required.  O'Connell's words, not mine.

Passion/smassion   If you are getting hurt on a rugby pitch you need something else. The good players have that BOD, POC etc. What am saying is that POM has the smarts to see what he needs to improve. He has always improved from game to game. Its just his way. I have watched POM playing since he was 16....there is more to come I am telling you.

And enough of this Joe has suddenly turned POM into a great player overnight...(definitely has brought a clearer defined requirement but that is for all players in terms of the game plan), POM has been playing "that" way for the last couple of years for Munster (and Ireland)

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:The two eyed fan knows that this isn't how POM has played for Ireland in the past.  I was an arch-critic, and obviously unfairly so.  I thought POM was a two bit Tom Croft impersonator who hid out in the backs looking for the big carries.  And he didn't do it very well.  The criticism was well merited from those of us outside Munster who saw he was not the same animal in green as he was in red.

Just though I'd put that in bold again so you you could read and rather than interpret what someone into saying through you own false interpretation and actually read what I said. Just to put it in digestible chunks for the slow learners, POM 4 Munster=good, POM 4 Ireland (under Kidney)= bad. Although it could also be argued Ireland under Kidney=bad.

Indeed Fly, I blamed POM and not Kidney for how ineffective he was in green. I thought he'd a Shane Jenningsesque player, good provincial player not cut out for international rugby. Schmidt proved that Kidney was utterly out of his depth. But since you've repeated yourself, I will too. If Kidney was coach POM and others (Heaslip, Toner, Sexton, Trimble, Kearney as mere examples) who still be utterly ineffective at this level. They could be exposed to international rugby for a decade and they still would be ineffective. Exposure to knowledgable coaching and a solid tactical base improves players. Exposure to braindead rugby does not. Just ask the Scots. Or ask us. We lived it since 2009.

On the exposure front re: Marshall, you'll notice I didn't criticise the decision. Yes, I'd like to have seen Marshall play yesterday. He did enough to retain his shirt. But it was a 50/50 selection and D'Arcy is playing his best rugby in three or four seasons. I have no problem with it. D'Arcy and Henry did an absolute number on Jamie Roberts yesterday.

It's passion, not smassion - and it's a real factor. It exists...and it has nothing to do with technical knowhow - it comes with technical knowhow but it's passion... and we all know it instinctively when we see it. And I'll point it out when I see it.

And no Schmidt didn't create POM, but neither did he sit back on the sidelines whilst POC declared what the (Munster) gameplan for Wales would be

It is quite clear that POM has been a talisman for Munster, yet he has been no more than a decent player for Ireland.  He is fantastic in open play, a very skilful player and a great ball carrier, but that is a luxury.  His real strengths are in the thick of the action, and this is why he has looked far better for Ireland this season.  Kidney seemed to prefer wasting him on the wing though.

ME-109, you can't possibly believe that POM has always been this good for Ireland.  For years I have been a huge fan, but like many players he really was not used properly under Kidney.  For Munster he has been fantastic, and now for Ireland he seems to be just as good.  He now has the rugby world taking notice, as he is becoming a real weapon.  I cannot wait to see him continue to progress.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:It is quite clear that POM has been a talisman for Munster, yet he has been no more than a decent player for Ireland.  He is fantastic in open play, a very skilful player and a great ball carrier, but that is a luxury.  His real strengths are in the thick of the action, and this is why he has looked far better for Ireland this season.  Kidney seemed to prefer wasting him on the wing though.

ME-109, you can't possibly believe that POM has always been this good for Ireland.  For years I have been a huge fan, but like many players he really was not used properly under Kidney.  For Munster he has been fantastic, and now for Ireland he seems to be just as good.  He now has the rugby world taking notice, as he is becoming a real weapon.  I cannot wait to see him continue to progress.

  Thumbs up from me.

You know what, I'll give you a second.   

What can I say? I'm a giver

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

ME-109, you can't possibly believe that POM has always been this good for Ireland.  For years I have been a huge fan, but like many players he really was not used properly under Kidney.  For Munster he has been fantastic, and now for Ireland he seems to be just as good.  He now has the rugby world taking notice, as he is becoming a real weapon.  I cannot wait to see him continue to progress.

But that's the brutal point Rory.  Often POM has been isolated for criticism even though the big argument in Kidney's time was that very few of the players (of quality and skill) were displaying those skills under the coaching system Kidney had in place.  So whilst people admit very few of the players showed any great consistent form under the later period of Kidney, it's still okay to isolate a single player for solitary criticism.

SecretFly wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

ME-109, you can't possibly believe that POM has always been this good for Ireland.  For years I have been a huge fan, but like many players he really was not used properly under Kidney.  For Munster he has been fantastic, and now for Ireland he seems to be just as good.  He now has the rugby world taking notice, as he is becoming a real weapon.  I cannot wait to see him continue to progress.

But that's the brutal point Rory.  Often POM has been isolated for criticism even though the big argument in Kidney's time was that very few of the players (of quality and skill) were displaying those skills under the coaching system Kidney had in place.  So whilst people admit very few of the players showed any great consistent form under the later period of Kidney, it's still okay to isolate a single player for solitary criticism.

Absolute nonsense.  As much as POM was criticised other players got it worse.  Heaslip, who despite playing extremely well since Schmidt took over is still targeted for ridicule by DOD and Sin which just undermines any arguments they make about the Luster brigade criticising Munster players.  I criticise those who need it, even when they are from Ulster.  He makes things personal and not about rugby.

Sexton.  Murray.  D'Arcy.  the semi-deity BOD.  Earls.  Kearney.  They have all received equal, if not more criticism that POM.  There is immense revisionism going on today Fly and you are the worse offender you scallywag.  Give me your revisionism on the Thirty Years War. Those naughty Swedes, a bad bunch.  Always liked the cut of Gustavus Adolphus' gib in saying that.  And Bethlem Gabor.  Two fingers up to the west.  But leave it out of the rugby analysis.  It makes baby Jesus sad.  And its worse because you are doing it on a Sunday.

Heaslip made 15 tackles yesterday. Immense shift from him.

GunsGerms wrote:Heaslip made 15 tackles yesterday. Immense shift from him.

No one cares...  

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

ME-109, you can't possibly believe that POM has always been this good for Ireland.  For years I have been a huge fan, but like many players he really was not used properly under Kidney.  For Munster he has been fantastic, and now for Ireland he seems to be just as good.  He now has the rugby world taking notice, as he is becoming a real weapon.  I cannot wait to see him continue to progress.

But that's the brutal point Rory.  Often POM has been isolated for criticism even though the big argument in Kidney's time was that very few of the players (of quality and skill) were displaying those skills under the coaching system Kidney had in place.  So whilst people admit very few of the players showed any great consistent form under the later period of Kidney, it's still okay to isolate a single player for solitary criticism.

Absolute nonsense.  As much as POM was criticised other players got it worse.  Heaslip, who despite playing extremely well since Schmidt took over is still targeted for ridicule by DOD and Sin which just undermines any arguments they make about the Luster brigade criticising Munster players.  I criticise those who need it, even when they are from Ulster.  He makes things personal and not about rugby.

Sexton.  Murray.  D'Arcy.  the semi-deity BOD.  Earls.  Kearney.  They have all received equal, if not more criticism that POM.  There is immense revisionism going on today Fly and you are the worse offender you scallywag.  Give me your revisionism on the Thirty Years War. Those naughty Swedes, a bad bunch.  Always liked the cut of Gustavus Adolphus' gib in saying that.  And Bethlem Gabor.  Two fingers up to the west.  But leave it out of the rugby analysis.  It makes baby Jesus sad.  And its worse because you are doing it on a Sunday.

Absolute schit!    This put-down business can be fun - I must do more of it.  Hook, so it's justified to bomb on a player because every player was getting bombed in Kidneys time even though most of us knew who we blamed for the lack of consistency from all the players - Kidney!

I think I was generally consistent in saying these players we have are not the problem but the system is killing them.  Yep, I've had a go at individual players in my time.  Kearney, Earls - even had a go at Heaslip's bitchiness at one pooint a few years ago when everything he seemed to do on the field and outside it was a scowl.

But let's all agree that the consistent thing is that the players weren't being given the tools to work with, frustration stalled their progress even more and then they just didn't buy the coaching project anymore.  They gave up.  (No revisionism from me on any of those points - I have a longwinded history on this site saying it over and over again and a history of often laughing at the boys who kept naming player names in the hope of ending a system issue that was never going to be solved - "If we had player A instead of B we might do better!" - Yeah, and pigs will fly.  

The players seem to want to play again and seem to have designs given to them that allow them to.  But saying it's okay to hit on early International POM because other players got it too is like saying actually no, Kidney wasn't the problem at all - it's just that a few players, like POM, kept letting him down.

And revisionism?  Don't talk to me about it - I witnessed it in the course of 80minutes yesterday, from beginning to end -   Irish fans...so fickle.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

ME-109, you can't possibly believe that POM has always been this good for Ireland.  For years I have been a huge fan, but like many players he really was not used properly under Kidney.  For Munster he has been fantastic, and now for Ireland he seems to be just as good.  He now has the rugby world taking notice, as he is becoming a real weapon.  I cannot wait to see him continue to progress.

But that's the brutal point Rory.  Often POM has been isolated for criticism even though the big argument in Kidney's time was that very few of the players (of quality and skill) were displaying those skills under the coaching system Kidney had in place.  So whilst people admit very few of the players showed any great consistent form under the later period of Kidney, it's still okay to isolate a single player for solitary criticism.

Absolute nonsense.  As much as POM was criticised other players got it worse.  Heaslip, who despite playing extremely well since Schmidt took over is still targeted for ridicule by DOD and Sin which just undermines any arguments they make about the Luster brigade criticising Munster players.  I criticise those who need it, even when they are from Ulster.  He makes things personal and not about rugby.

Sexton.  Murray.  D'Arcy.  the semi-deity BOD.  Earls.  Kearney.  They have all received equal, if not more criticism that POM.  There is immense revisionism going on today Fly and you are the worse offender you scallywag.  Give me your revisionism on the Thirty Years War. Those naughty Swedes, a bad bunch.  Always liked the cut of Gustavus Adolphus' gib in saying that.  And Bethlem Gabor.  Two fingers up to the west.  But leave it out of the rugby analysis.  It makes baby Jesus sad.  And its worse because you are doing it on a Sunday.

I tend to agree with Fly here (sorry fly)...also in relation to your last post on the Ireland thread I did look at the stats for last year, I also recall watching the games and indeed noting the comments of pundits and commentators concerning POM...(maybe you just saw the Italy game where he was out on the wing due to the 20 injuries we had that day so I'll forgive you for it). So last year POM was close to MOTM on a number of occasions and again his tackling, turnover, metres gained, lineout etc etc were all as good as this year.

Your comment on myself and Sin É is true to a point but the facts spoke for themselves last year regarding POM the unfortunate thing is you havent the wisdom to see otherwise. Also you will note that myself and SinÉ dont tend to criticise other players directly and its usually in reference to others like yourself or Guns who cant see the wood for the trees.

I would agree with Nachos in that POM has been our most consistent performer over the last two seasons (feel free to look at reruns of the games if you wish - and take off the blinkers   ).

Back to the rugby.....lets get things straight on one thing as commented elsewhere we have beaten a hopeless Scotland and a poor Welsh team through 10 man, leather the ball Munster style rugby. The backplay has been bereft of ideas and creativity (great defensive effort)...what next...

Just to note wasnt everyone criticising Kidney for those tactics from some time back (even when we were half decent under him)....

ME-109 wrote:
I tend to agree with Fly here (sorry fly)...also in relation to your last post on the Ireland thread I did look at the stats for last year, I also recall watching the games and indeed noting the comments of pundits and commentators concerning POM...(maybe you just saw the Italy game where he was out on the wing due to the 20 injuries we had that day so I'll forgive you for it). So last year POM was close to MOTM on a number of occasions and again his tackling, turnover, metres gained, lineout etc etc were all as good as this year.

Your comment on myself and Sin É is true to a point but the facts spoke for themselves last year regarding POM the unfortunate thing is you havent the wisdom to see otherwise. Also you will note that myself and SinÉ dont tend to criticise other players directly and its usually in reference to others like yourself or Guns who cant see the wood for the trees.

I would agree with Nachos in that POM has been our most consistent performer over the last two seasons (feel free to look at reruns of the games if you wish - and take off the blinkers   ).

Back to the rugby.....lets get things straight on one thing as commented elsewhere we have beaten a hopeless Scotland and a poor Welsh team through 10 man, leather the ball Munster style rugby. The backplay has been bereft of ideas and creativity (great defensive effort)...what next...

Ah the begrudgery,where were these high standards when Kidney was the coach.

ME-109 wrote:Just to note wasnt everyone criticising Kidney for those tactics from some time back (even when we were half decent under him)....

You weren't so why the turnaround,also nobody criticised Kidney for those tactics.

We criticised for a gameplan that was full of aimless,stupid kicking where yesterday we kicked with purpose and intelligence.We criticised him for never adapting whereas we played 3 very different gameplans in our last 3 games and they all worked pretty well.We criticsed him for not understanding how to use his substitutes,I don't think it can be argued that Schmidt has been far more effective there either.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

ME-109 wrote:
I tend to agree with Fly here (sorry fly)...also in relation to your last post on the Ireland thread I did look at the stats for last year, I also recall watching the games and indeed noting the comments of pundits and commentators concerning POM...(maybe you just saw the Italy game where he was out on the wing due to the 20 injuries we had that day so I'll forgive you for it). So last year POM was close to MOTM on a number of occasions and again his tackling, turnover, metres gained, lineout etc etc were all as good as this year.

Your comment on myself and Sin É is true to a point but the facts spoke for themselves last year regarding POM the unfortunate thing is you havent the wisdom to see otherwise. Also you will note that myself and SinÉ dont tend to criticise other players directly and its usually in reference to others like yourself or Guns who cant see the wood for the trees.

I would agree with Nachos in that POM has been our most consistent performer over the last two seasons (feel free to look at reruns of the games if you wish - and take off the blinkers   ).

Back to the rugby.....lets get things straight on one thing as commented elsewhere we have beaten a hopeless Scotland and a poor Welsh team through 10 man, leather the ball Munster style rugby. The backplay has been bereft of ideas and creativity (great defensive effort)...what next...

Ah the begrudgery,where were these high standards when Kidney was the coach.

Because Kidney actually tried to change it....that was his mistake.

SecretFly wrote:

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

ME-109, you can't possibly believe that POM has always been this good for Ireland.  For years I have been a huge fan, but like many players he really was not used properly under Kidney.  For Munster he has been fantastic, and now for Ireland he seems to be just as good.  He now has the rugby world taking notice, as he is becoming a real weapon.  I cannot wait to see him continue to progress.

But that's the brutal point Rory.  Often POM has been isolated for criticism even though the big argument in Kidney's time was that very few of the players (of quality and skill) were displaying those skills under the coaching system Kidney had in place.  So whilst people admit very few of the players showed any great consistent form under the later period of Kidney, it's still okay to isolate a single player for solitary criticism.

Absolute nonsense.  As much as POM was criticised other players got it worse.  Heaslip, who despite playing extremely well since Schmidt took over is still targeted for ridicule by DOD and Sin which just undermines any arguments they make about the Luster brigade criticising Munster players.  I criticise those who need it, even when they are from Ulster.  He makes things personal and not about rugby.

Sexton.  Murray.  D'Arcy.  the semi-deity BOD.  Earls.  Kearney.  They have all received equal, if not more criticism that POM.  There is immense revisionism going on today Fly and you are the worse offender you scallywag.  Give me your revisionism on the Thirty Years War. Those naughty Swedes, a bad bunch.  Always liked the cut of Gustavus Adolphus' gib in saying that.  And Bethlem Gabor.  Two fingers up to the west.  But leave it out of the rugby analysis.  It makes baby Jesus sad.  And its worse because you are doing it on a Sunday.

Absolute schit!    This put-down business can be fun - I must do more of it.  Hook, so it's justified to bomb on a player because every player was getting bombed in Kidneys time even though most of us knew who we blamed for the lack of consistency from all the players - Kidney!

I think I was generally consistent in saying these players we have are not the problem but the system is killing them.  Yep, I've had a go at individual players in my time.  Kearney, Earls - even had a go at Heaslip's bitchiness at one pooint a few years ago when everything he seemed to do on the field and outside it was a scowl.

But let's all agree that the consistent thing is that the players weren't being given the tools to work with, frustration stalled their progress even more and then they just didn't buy the coaching project anymore.  They gave up.  (No revisionism from me on any of those points - I have a longwinded history on this site saying it over and over again and a history of often laughing at the boys who kept naming player names in the hope of ending a system issue that was never going to be solved - "If we had player A instead of B we might do better!" - Yeah, and pigs will fly.  

The players seem to want to play again and seem to have designs given to them that allow them to.  But saying it's okay to hit on early International POM because other players got it too is like saying actually no, Kidney wasn't the problem at all - it's just that a few players, like POM, kept letting him down.

And revisionism?  Don't talk to me about it - I witnessed it in the course of 80minutes yesterday, from beginning to end -   Irish fans...so fickle.

I'm afraid old bean that this thread has singled POM out because, you know, its a thread about POM. You know me, I'm 100% relevant to all things thread related and never gone off topic once. Not once in my life. I remember in 1956 sitting down in a cherry orchard reading Harry Potter and the Philosophers Stone with Keith Earl's auld fella and telling him this wizard fella would go far. He objected to the use of the word 'wand' and he believed it was secret commie talk relating to a man's love appendage.

True story.

Kidney was the root of all evil. Of course he was. Even the Bible got it wrong. It named poor money. Well Fly you're so money. You're so money you don't even know it. I've said Kidney was to blame. You can no doubt quote me on it. I even tried to change my middle name but Gibbo beat me to it the raggamuffin. We all knew it, except for the Munsterites who believed we didn't have the players at this level. It was such a given that we didn't even have to talk about it on here. Don't mention Kidney, that was the watchword. Or watchwords. Its plural. But some players still stepped him under him. Healy. Best. Ryan. POC. SOB. No backs right enough. So players who underperformed such be criticised. POM, Heaslip, Murray, Sexton, D'Arcy etc etc. Kidney shoulders the blame, but he can't carry the full weight of it.

ME-109 wrote:

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

ME-109, you can't possibly believe that POM has always been this good for Ireland.  For years I have been a huge fan, but like many players he really was not used properly under Kidney.  For Munster he has been fantastic, and now for Ireland he seems to be just as good.  He now has the rugby world taking notice, as he is becoming a real weapon.  I cannot wait to see him continue to progress.

But that's the brutal point Rory.  Often POM has been isolated for criticism even though the big argument in Kidney's time was that very few of the players (of quality and skill) were displaying those skills under the coaching system Kidney had in place.  So whilst people admit very few of the players showed any great consistent form under the later period of Kidney, it's still okay to isolate a single player for solitary criticism.

Absolute nonsense.  As much as POM was criticised other players got it worse.  Heaslip, who despite playing extremely well since Schmidt took over is still targeted for ridicule by DOD and Sin which just undermines any arguments they make about the Luster brigade criticising Munster players.  I criticise those who need it, even when they are from Ulster.  He makes things personal and not about rugby.

Sexton.  Murray.  D'Arcy.  the semi-deity BOD.  Earls.  Kearney.  They have all received equal, if not more criticism that POM.  There is immense revisionism going on today Fly and you are the worse offender you scallywag.  Give me your revisionism on the Thirty Years War. Those naughty Swedes, a bad bunch.  Always liked the cut of Gustavus Adolphus' gib in saying that.  And Bethlem Gabor.  Two fingers up to the west.  But leave it out of the rugby analysis.  It makes baby Jesus sad.  And its worse because you are doing it on a Sunday.

I tend to agree with Fly here (sorry fly)...also in relation to your last post on the Ireland thread I did look at the stats for last year, I also recall watching the games and indeed noting the comments of pundits and commentators concerning POM...(maybe you just saw the Italy game where he was out on the wing due to the 20 injuries we had that day so I'll forgive you for it). So last year POM was close to MOTM on a number of occasions and again his tackling, turnover, metres gained, lineout etc etc were all as good as this year.

Your comment on myself and Sin É is true to a point but the facts spoke for themselves last year regarding POM the unfortunate thing is you havent the wisdom to see otherwise. Also you will note that myself and SinÉ dont tend to criticise other players directly and its usually in reference to others like yourself or Guns who cant see the wood for the trees.

I would agree with Nachos in that POM has been our most consistent performer over the last two seasons (feel free to look at reruns of the games if you wish - and take off the blinkers   ).

Back to the rugby.....lets get things straight on one thing as commented elsewhere we have beaten a hopeless Scotland and a poor Welsh team through 10 man, leather the ball Munster style rugby. The backplay has been bereft of ideas and creativity (great defensive effort)...what next...

Oh DOD, I can't wait to break out the stats on this thread.  I can't wait.  I want to build the anticipation.  I'm a tease like that.  But when they show how little he did (2 tackles against England last year....stop it you naughty boy, you are giving away the goodies for free) I can't wait to see how you spin it.  Maybe we could do it over dinner.  But I'm warning you.  You better put out this time.  

I also remember commentators comments that didn't happen.  For example, Beyonce told an audience full of other attractive famous women that I was hung like a horse and satisfied her in a way no other man had in the past.  In fact she donated her lady parts to a museum beside a plaque that read 'Hooskisms waz ere' to preserve it for future generations.  

The sad thing is, what I just said is as equally true as what you said. Except mine is more fun to my addled brain, but also less amusing than yours.

Hookie, hookie hookie...dont you think you are running away with yourself...even Fly hasnt. Its quite possible we lose to England & France...whats the story then...

ME-109 wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

ME-109 wrote:
I tend to agree with Fly here (sorry fly)...also in relation to your last post on the Ireland thread I did look at the stats for last year, I also recall watching the games and indeed noting the comments of pundits and commentators concerning POM...(maybe you just saw the Italy game where he was out on the wing due to the 20 injuries we had that day so I'll forgive you for it). So last year POM was close to MOTM on a number of occasions and again his tackling, turnover, metres gained, lineout etc etc were all as good as this year.

Your comment on myself and Sin É is true to a point but the facts spoke for themselves last year regarding POM the unfortunate thing is you havent the wisdom to see otherwise. Also you will note that myself and SinÉ dont tend to criticise other players directly and its usually in reference to others like yourself or Guns who cant see the wood for the trees.

I would agree with Nachos in that POM has been our most consistent performer over the last two seasons (feel free to look at reruns of the games if you wish - and take off the blinkers   ).

Back to the rugby.....lets get things straight on one thing as commented elsewhere we have beaten a hopeless Scotland and a poor Welsh team through 10 man, leather the ball Munster style rugby. The backplay has been bereft of ideas and creativity (great defensive effort)...what next...

Ah the begrudgery,where were these high standards when Kidney was the coach.

Because Kidney actually tried to change it....that was his mistake.

His mistake- his tragedy- was that he tried to change it, but didn't know how. He knew enough to know we had to evolve our game but not enough to actually pull it off. He was never a details man and he didn't know what to do with several players who didn't fit in or how to get the best out of them- guys like O'Mahony and Trimble.

There's this narrative that people had it in for him, but the truth is no-one really enjoyed watching a fundamentally good person get increasingly out of his depth. Schmidt I'm impressed with so far in that he hasn't tried to just go out and make Ireland play like Leinster. He's gone out to find the style of play from game to game that suits the players he has at his disposal best. He's a pragmatist and a real stickler for detail and that seems to be working well. They also have been getting all the little details right and its good Schmidt is still going to be giving them a load of work-ons from Wales too- he's just bringing much higher standards in.

Say what you like about Kidney vs. Schmidt but what about Gert Smal vs. John Plumtree? The much talked up South African forwards coach who oversaw a terminal decline in our line out accuracy and the effectiveness of our maul has been massively shown up. Did Smal ever know how to coach a pack that couldn't rely on brute force?

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:

ME-109 wrote:

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

ME-109, you can't possibly believe that POM has always been this good for Ireland.  For years I have been a huge fan, but like many players he really was not used properly under Kidney.  For Munster he has been fantastic, and now for Ireland he seems to be just as good.  He now has the rugby world taking notice, as he is becoming a real weapon.  I cannot wait to see him continue to progress.

But that's the brutal point Rory.  Often POM has been isolated for criticism even though the big argument in Kidney's time was that very few of the players (of quality and skill) were displaying those skills under the coaching system Kidney had in place.  So whilst people admit very few of the players showed any great consistent form under the later period of Kidney, it's still okay to isolate a single player for solitary criticism.

Absolute nonsense.  As much as POM was criticised other players got it worse.  Heaslip, who despite playing extremely well since Schmidt took over is still targeted for ridicule by DOD and Sin which just undermines any arguments they make about the Luster brigade criticising Munster players.  I criticise those who need it, even when they are from Ulster.  He makes things personal and not about rugby.

Sexton.  Murray.  D'Arcy.  the semi-deity BOD.  Earls.  Kearney.  They have all received equal, if not more criticism that POM.  There is immense revisionism going on today Fly and you are the worse offender you scallywag.  Give me your revisionism on the Thirty Years War. Those naughty Swedes, a bad bunch.  Always liked the cut of Gustavus Adolphus' gib in saying that.  And Bethlem Gabor.  Two fingers up to the west.  But leave it out of the rugby analysis.  It makes baby Jesus sad.  And its worse because you are doing it on a Sunday.

I tend to agree with Fly here (sorry fly)...also in relation to your last post on the Ireland thread I did look at the stats for last year, I also recall watching the games and indeed noting the comments of pundits and commentators concerning POM...(maybe you just saw the Italy game where he was out on the wing due to the 20 injuries we had that day so I'll forgive you for it). So last year POM was close to MOTM on a number of occasions and again his tackling, turnover, metres gained, lineout etc etc were all as good as this year.

Your comment on myself and Sin É is true to a point but the facts spoke for themselves last year regarding POM the unfortunate thing is you havent the wisdom to see otherwise. Also you will note that myself and SinÉ dont tend to criticise other players directly and its usually in reference to others like yourself or Guns who cant see the wood for the trees.

I would agree with Nachos in that POM has been our most consistent performer over the last two seasons (feel free to look at reruns of the games if you wish - and take off the blinkers   ).

Back to the rugby.....lets get things straight on one thing as commented elsewhere we have beaten a hopeless Scotland and a poor Welsh team through 10 man, leather the ball Munster style rugby. The backplay has been bereft of ideas and creativity (great defensive effort)...what next...

Oh DOD, I can't wait to break out the stats on this thread.  I can't wait.  I want to build the anticipation.  I'm a tease like that.  But when they show how little he did (2 tackles against England last year....stop it you naughty boy, you are giving away the goodies for free) I can't wait to see how you spin it.  Maybe we could do it over dinner.  But I'm warning you.  You better put out this time.  

I also remember commentators comments that didn't happen.  For example, Beyonce told an audience full of other attractive famous women that I was hung like a horse and satisfied her in a way no other man had in the past.  In fact she donated her lady parts to a museum beside a plaque that read 'Hooskisms waz ere' to preserve it for future generations.  

The sad thing is, what I just said is as equally true as what you said. Except my is more fun to my addled brain, but also less amusing than yours.  

Move on hookie...nobody cares...but

Against England...made 30 metres, beat three defenders and won 4 lineouts losing 1. both himself and SOB were the pick of the bunch. Dont you remember the game or something..

Smal has been completely shown up.

It amazes me that some people try to defend their provincially based biased towards Pom! Yesterday's performance was not the first! He was definitely one of the stand out players from last years 6n.

Why persist with silly debate, admit when your wrong and move on

wolfball wrote:He is a flash player, but a Munster flash player. He does the things that Munster fans love, and those can be great things for a team; Manic aggression like    Coupled with eye-catching runs, its attractive to see.

Is he as good as the Munster lads keep saying; No -  I think he has a huge potential ceiling, but is no where close to that yet. He is great captain but I hope his skill set keeps up with leadership abilities; otherwise you could end up with John Smit in his later years - leader of men, 3rd best in his position. But as of now I think all issues with POM have been over-stated and I think we will have alot better idea of his ability post-6 nations where he will have to help fill the SOB shaped hole in our backrow.

I have certainly been fully convinced by POM after these two games. My player of the tournie so far.

I said it on another thread, but Plumtree has been huge for us - proper dynamic mauls (not the slow rumble of our old lad's day) and constant pressure at the breakdown... its unreal exciting what those basics could mean for us in terms of winning competitions. But England is the big test. i think we will out-England England.

I think we will play a more expansive game v England.

I certainly think it'll be a different game...designed for England.

wolfball wrote:

wolfball wrote:He is a flash player, but a Munster flash player. He does the things that Munster fans love, and those can be great things for a team; Manic aggression like    Coupled with eye-catching runs, its attractive to see.

Is he as good as the Munster lads keep saying; No -  I think he has a huge potential ceiling, but is no where close to that yet. He is great captain but I hope his skill set keeps up with leadership abilities; otherwise you could end up with John Smit in his later years - leader of men, 3rd best in his position. But as of now I think all issues with POM have been over-stated and I think we will have alot better idea of his ability post-6 nations where he will have to help fill the SOB shaped hole in our backrow.

I have certainly been fully convinced by POM after these two games. My player of the tournie so far.

I said it on another thread, but Plumtree has been huge for us - proper dynamic mauls (not the slow rumble of our old lad's day) and constant pressure at the breakdown... its unreal exciting what those basics could mean for us in terms of winning competitions. But England is the big test. i think we will out-England England.

I was going to post the same thing. He's been immense. His shift against Wales was one of the best I've seen this tournament from any player.

I'm hoping England target his breakdown work for two weekends time.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

ME-109 wrote:Just to note wasnt everyone criticising Kidney for those tactics from some time back (even when we were half decent under him)....

You weren't so why the turnaround,also nobody criticised Kidney for those tactics.

We criticised for a gameplan that was full of aimless,stupid kicking where yesterday we kicked with purpose and intelligence.We criticised him for never adapting whereas we played 3 very different gameplans in our last 3 games and they all worked pretty well.We criticsed him for not understanding how to use his substitutes,I don't think it can be argued that Schmidt has been far more effective there either.

Looks like ROG is having a huge influence on Sexton's game.   

He'll probably be targetted before breakdown work...legally, to soften him up and to see how deep his muscle layer is before coming to bone.
He'll want to be vigilant if he is with ball on his lonesome

Anyone notice it looked like Rog dyed his hair. He also loves throwing in lots of French in his punditry. Is he falling foul of the Parisian chic lifestyle? how long before he starts wearing cravats?

Will they recognise him when he returns to Munster?

Just read Tolands piece on the game...the only time he mentions POM by name is about his move to the second row...he did mention the first penalty that POM won off POCs tackle at the beginning of the game but couldnt bring himself to name POM. Ah poor Liam...Guns are you sure you arent Toland in disguise?

O'Gara looked absolutely drained last night.  Very tired and ...well, he was stopped mid flight at one point because he was going off topic.

He looked very pale and tired.  He needs to stop the old plane flights over and back to his job and get some rest.  The hair can often look different under studio lights and..well, we haven't seen him all that often under studio lights.

Sin é wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

ME-109 wrote:Just to note wasnt everyone criticising Kidney for those tactics from some time back (even when we were half decent under him)....

You weren't so why the turnaround,also nobody criticised Kidney for those tactics.

We criticised for a gameplan that was full of aimless,stupid kicking where yesterday we kicked with purpose and intelligence.We criticised him for never adapting whereas we played 3 very different gameplans in our last 3 games and they all worked pretty well.We criticsed him for not understanding how to use his substitutes,I don't think it can be argued that Schmidt has been far more effective there either.

Looks like ROG is having a huge influence on Sexton's game.   

Funny how RoG did the same aimless,stupid kicking when playing for Kidneys Ireland.You can see RoG on t.v. now eulogising Schmidt every time he talks about him,I think he even said he was the best coach in the world yesterday..I bet he wishes he could have played for Schmidt,RoG in his pomp would have loved that.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

ME-109 wrote:Just to note wasnt everyone criticising Kidney for those tactics from some time back (even when we were half decent under him)....

You weren't so why the turnaround,also nobody criticised Kidney for those tactics.

We criticised for a gameplan that was full of aimless,stupid kicking where yesterday we kicked with purpose and intelligence.We criticised him for never adapting whereas we played 3 very different gameplans in our last 3 games and they all worked pretty well.We criticsed him for not understanding how to use his substitutes,I don't think it can be argued that Schmidt has been far more effective there either.

Looks like ROG is having a huge influence on Sexton's game.   

Funny how RoG did the same aimless,stupid kicking when playing for Kidneys Ireland.You can see RoG on t.v. now eulogising Schmidt every time he talks about him,I think he even said he was the best coach in the world yesterday..I bet he wishes he could have played for Schmidt,RoG in his pomp would have loved that.

I think you are mistaking ROG for Sexton back with the aimless kicking.... he wasnt capable back then...clearly he has improved.

ME-109 wrote:Just read Tolands piece on the game...the only time he mentions POM by name is about his move to the second row...he did mention the first penalty that POM won off POCs tackle at the beginning of the game but couldnt bring himself to name POM. Ah poor Liam...Guns are you sure you arent Toland in disguise?

I was an out half. Toland was a flanker. I assume he knows a thing or two about the back row. POM was really good but not as good as the on your knees gushing coming out of Munster where rugby fans have a tendancy to get fairly carried away.

The reason POM was so effective was because he won lots of turn overs. Credit for this should also go to Heaslip who put in 15 chop tackles which allowed POM to make the turnover.

POM has certainly progressed under Schmidt mainly because he has a much more focussed role rather than the jack of all trades master of none performances from him last year.

ME-109 wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

ME-109 wrote:Just to note wasnt everyone criticising Kidney for those tactics from some time back (even when we were half decent under him)....

You weren't so why the turnaround,also nobody criticised Kidney for those tactics.

We criticised for a gameplan that was full of aimless,stupid kicking where yesterday we kicked with purpose and intelligence.We criticised him for never adapting whereas we played 3 very different gameplans in our last 3 games and they all worked pretty well.We criticsed him for not understanding how to use his substitutes,I don't think it can be argued that Schmidt has been far more effective there either.

Looks like ROG is having a huge influence on Sexton's game.   

Funny how RoG did the same aimless,stupid kicking when playing for Kidneys Ireland.You can see RoG on t.v. now eulogising Schmidt every time he talks about him,I think he even said he was the best coach in the world yesterday..I bet he wishes he could have played for Schmidt,RoG in his pomp would have loved that.

I think you are mistaking ROG for Sexton back with the aimless kicking.... he wasnt capable back then...clearly he has improved.

Nope I'm thinking of the small guy (for a pro rugby player) with brown hair and ruby red cheeks,very handy player but never really played well for Kidneys Ireland after 2009.You can see him salivating whenever they start talking about Schmidt on the RTE panel.

GunsGerms wrote:

ME-109 wrote:Just read Tolands piece on the game...the only time he mentions POM by name is about his move to the second row...he did mention the first penalty that POM won off POCs tackle at the beginning of the game but couldnt bring himself to name POM. Ah poor Liam...Guns are you sure you arent Toland in disguise?

I was an out half. Toland was a flanker. I assume he knows a thing or two about the back row. POM was really good but not as good as the on your knees gushing coming out of Munster where rugby fans have a tendancy to get fairly carried away.

The reason POM was so effective was because he won lots of turn overs. Credit for this should also go to Heaslip who put in 15 chop tackles which allowed POM to make the turnover.

POM has certainly progressed under Schmidt mainly because he has a much more focussed role rather than the jack of all trades master of none performances from him last year.

Toland is a Munster reject, thats why he is so bitter.

PS - POC made 2 less tackles than Heaslip and he came off after 55mins.   

asoreleftshoulder wrote:
Nope I'm thinking of the small guy (for a pro rugby player) with brown hair and ruby red cheeks,very handy player but never really played well for Kidneys Ireland after 2009.You can see him salivating whenever they start talking about Schmidt on the RTE panel.

I'm sure the national coach would have a view on who should get the Munster Backs coach job. No doubt Johnny is telling him what a great coach ROG is as well.

GunsGerms wrote:

ME-109 wrote:Just read Tolands piece on the game...the only time he mentions POM by name is about his move to the second row...he did mention the first penalty that POM won off POCs tackle at the beginning of the game but couldnt bring himself to name POM. Ah poor Liam...Guns are you sure you arent Toland in disguise?

I was an out half. Toland was a flanker. I assume he knows a thing or two about the back row. POM was really good but not as good as the on your knees gushing coming out of Munster where rugby fans have a tendancy to get fairly carried away.

The reason POM was so effective was because he won lots of turn overs. Credit for this should also go to Heaslip who put in 15 chop tackles which allowed POM to make the turnover.

POM has certainly progressed under Schmidt mainly because he has a much more focussed role rather than the jack of all trades master of none performances from him last year.

Nice one Guns...except I dont think any of the turnovers were around Jamies tackles. Two were from POC...anyhow never let the facts get in the way of one of your opinions...oh and you will note last week and this week the only thing I have said about POM is that he played his normal game nothing special we dont tend to do that goys d4 gushing thing down here...

Sin é wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

ME-109 wrote:Just read Tolands piece on the game...the only time he mentions POM by name is about his move to the second row...he did mention the first penalty that POM won off POCs tackle at the beginning of the game but couldnt bring himself to name POM. Ah poor Liam...Guns are you sure you arent Toland in disguise?

I was an out half. Toland was a flanker. I assume he knows a thing or two about the back row. POM was really good but not as good as the on your knees gushing coming out of Munster where rugby fans have a tendancy to get fairly carried away.

The reason POM was so effective was because he won lots of turn overs. Credit for this should also go to Heaslip who put in 15 chop tackles which allowed POM to make the turnover.

POM has certainly progressed under Schmidt mainly because he has a much more focussed role rather than the jack of all trades master of none performances from him last year.

Toland is a Munster reject, thats why he is so bitter.

PS - POC made 2 less tackles than Heaslip and he came off after 55mins.   

And with a chest infection as well...

Sin é wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:
Nope I'm thinking of the small guy (for a pro rugby player) with brown hair and ruby red cheeks,very handy player but never really played well for Kidneys Ireland after 2009.You can see him salivating whenever they start talking about Schmidt on the RTE panel.

I'm sure the national coach would have a view on who should get the Munster Backs coach job. No doubt Johnny is telling him what a great coach ROG is as well.

What are you implying?

He was subbed off though because he wasnt getting around the park quick enough.

Me-109 Munster fans do tend to love big statements get very carried away. "Ireland by birth Munster by grace of God" - cracks me up every time.

GunsGerms wrote:He was subbed off though because he wasnt getting around the park quick enough.

Me-109 Munster fans do tend to love big statements get very carried away. "Ireland by birth Munster by grace of God" - cracks me up every time.

They stole that one from Cork...

Dont you think it personifies Munster fans well though? Dramatic with just a hint of bitterness.

Oh yeah fair enough. However it beats the hell out of lovin the goys on a Friday night down Donnybrook,....Kearndog and all that.....

But gushing....you clearly havent played for Munster (or any Munster club) in front of their home crowd....

Kearndog, Mads, Drico, Jamie, Dorce etc. Just have it though. You cant teach that stuff.

#swagger