Gatland and Robin

Scratch wrote:http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/ronan-ogara-someone-will-always-fill-your-shoes-254172.html

Seems Gatland has formed a dynamic duo with ROG who hasn't dropped a bomb like this since 'that' kick chase in 2009 when the 2nd test and series went up in smoke at Loftus.

I have always respected his achievements in the green shirt and felt he was never Lions material,  which was underlined by his performance in 2009, but what he fails to understand is that Welsh players are left with little alternative in a short career, to follow what is best for them and their families. To suggest Welsh players lack pride is a gross misunderstanding of what the problems they face are.

The movement of Welsh players to France is not a reflection of lack of pride in regional Welsh rugby, it is a reflection of something far worse, that Welsh rugby is at a crossroads at regional level and is in decline as a direct result. Viability is now a real concern.

That the national side has achieved so much is a miracle in that context and ROG has done a Gatland on his own team, I am pretty sure when the boys come to Dublin they will show just how much pride they have in their game

Griff wrote:Some Irish fans posted recently that Jamie Heaslip was on 400,000 euros per season (old contract; not sure about the new one). It does make it easier to stay when the money being offered is at that level, pride or no pride. That's the sort of money the welsh players are moving for, so could be the sort of money that would keep them if it was available.

I doubt if anymore player in Wales is on more than 200,000.

Scratch wrote:They don't have rugby in Oz?

Gatland is renowned for putting his foot in it pre game and continues to do so ref BOD and his Christmas card list.

As for his remarks about the Welsh jersey, it's a bit like giving someone a kiss after you kicked them in the balls.

Scratch wrote:It's ROG that needs the good kick….and Munchkins come from OZ!!   

Scratch wrote:http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/ronan-ogara-someone-will-always-fill-your-shoes-254172.html

Seems Gatland has formed a dynamic duo with ROG who hasn't dropped a bomb like this since 'that' kick chase in 2009 when the 2nd test and series went up in smoke at Loftus.

I have always respected his achievements in the green shirt and felt he was never Lions material,  which was underlined by his performance in 2009,

What, the same ROG that kicked the drop goal that won Ireland a Grand Slam in Wales

but what he fails to understand is that Welsh players are left with little alternative in a short career, to follow what is best for them and their families. To suggest Welsh players lack pride is a gross misunderstanding of what the problems they face are.

The problem they face is a lack of pride from fans. For example, looking at the Irish provances I can't remember the last time a Munster, Leinster or Ulster game was not sold out, contrast that with the Welsh regions. Top players leaving dosn't help matters.

The movement of Welsh players to France is not a reflection of lack of pride in regional Welsh rugby, it is a reflection of something far worse, that Welsh rugby is at a crossroads at regional level and is in decline as a direct result. Viability is now a real concern.

Agreed.

That the national side has achieved so much is a miracle in that context and ROG has done a Gatland on his own team, I am pretty sure when the boys come to Dublin they will show just how much pride they have in their game

Nonsense.

You seem to be suggesting that A) the Welsh players are easily offended and B) that this will somehow translate into Ireland get flattened by the Welsh, whose pride is on the line. Thats all well and good but you seem to have forgot what Ireland did to Wales on their own patch last year.   

slane wrote:

Scratch wrote:http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/ronan-ogara-someone-will-always-fill-your-shoes-254172.html

Seems Gatland has formed a dynamic duo with ROG who hasn't dropped a bomb like this since 'that' kick chase in 2009 when the 2nd test and series went up in smoke at Loftus.

I have always respected his achievements in the green shirt and felt he was never Lions material,  which was underlined by his performance in 2009,

What, the same ROG that kicked the drop goal that won Ireland a Grand Slam in Wales

And cost us a Lions series

but what he fails to understand is that Welsh players are left with little alternative in a short career, to follow what is best for them and their families. To suggest Welsh players lack pride is a gross misunderstanding of what the problems they face are.

The problem they face is a lack of pride from fans. For example, looking at the Irish provances I can't remember the last time a Munster, Leinster or Ulster game was not sold out, contrast that with the Welsh regions. Top players leaving dosn't help matters.

Rubbish, the problem is money and the relationship between Union, regions, sponsors and tv.

The movement of Welsh players to France is not a reflection of lack of pride in regional Welsh rugby, it is a reflection of something far worse, that Welsh rugby is at a crossroads at regional level and is in decline as a direct result. Viability is now a real concern.

Agreed.

That the national side has achieved so much is a miracle in that context and ROG has done a Gatland on his own team, I am pretty sure when the boys come to Dublin they will show just how much pride they have in their game

Nonsense.

You seem to be suggesting that A) the Welsh players are easily offended and B) that this will somehow translate into Ireland get flattened by the Welsh, whose pride is on the line. Thats all well and good but you seem to have forgot what Ireland did to Wales on their own patch last year.   

No i remember, i also remember what we did to you on your patch the year before when we won another Slam and successfully defended this year

Griff wrote:Surely the Welsh national performance vs regional performance conundrum is more logical than Ireland's?

In Wales the regions are not so good, but take the best parts of them and put them together and you have something better. The best bits from 4 teams are selected and together they produce a very good team (on a European level, which is where we're looking at their regions' performances).

In Ireland you have an embarrassment of riches at club level, 3 sides right at the top of Europe, but when you take the best bits and put them together for the Ireland squad (which should mean a phenomenal, Europe beating side) they perform no better than Wales. Over the past few years perhaps worse. How so?! It doesn't seem logical to me.

slane wrote:

Griff wrote:Surely the Welsh national performance vs regional performance conundrum is more logical than Ireland's?

In Wales the regions are not so good, but take the best parts of them and put them together and you have something better. The best bits from 4 teams are selected and together they produce a very good team (on a European level, which is where we're looking at their regions' performances).

In Ireland you have an embarrassment of riches at club level, 3 sides right at the top of Europe, but when you take the best bits and put them together for the Ireland squad (which should mean a phenomenal, Europe beating side) they perform no better than Wales. Over the past few years perhaps worse. How so?! It doesn't seem logical to me.

Declan Kidney

Scratch wrote:but what he fails to understand is that Welsh players are left with little alternative in a short career

Griff wrote:For what it's worth I predict a disaster (relatively) for Wales. Of course our media will/are talking us up for a potential record 3rd championships in a row. I guess while it's mathematically possible the media will always try to talk it up!

But for me I think the players are generally not is as good club form as they usually are (individually I mean. The clubs are always not very good). Maybe the old lions hang up thing. Plus we've got a lot of injuries (excuses, excuses!) and internationals not having played much, if at all, since returning from injury so our usual lack of depth is going to be even more of a factor.

Mid table prediction from this Welsh fan - perhaps all home game wins, and away losses. I actually think Ireland away will be a bit of a tonking for us (like last year could have been).

flyhalffactory wrote:

Scratch wrote:but what he fails to understand is that Welsh players are left with little alternative in a short career

Surely Scratch, with the "Welsh Legends" this is rarely the case.

Many go onto coaching/manager careers, as well as media, press, commentating careers, and are the most prolific after-dinner-speakers on the circuit bar none.

So for many of the potential stars of welsh rugby the object is f@@k the regional game, get into the Welsh team fast track and cling onto your jersey for 50-60 caps and then at 26-30 yrs of age turn your back on the team that got them onto the international stage, become a cash journey man for 3-4 season, then close off your career back in Welsh rugby with perhaps a lower rated region (no disrespect to NGD at this point). All of a sudden you then see them becoming regional backs/forward coach, whilst commentating on BBC Wales/S4C/Sky/BT, whilst bringing out their second autobiography, and opening supermarkets, motivational courses for commercial management, before rushing off to do their After Dinner Events on the weekend....... and then some.

For the majority of the Welsh legends since the 1970s, they have very long, very lucrative careers, and I believe ROGs article is pretty much spot on.

Scratch wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:

Scratch wrote:but what he fails to understand is that Welsh players are left with little alternative in a short career

Surely Scratch, with the "Welsh Legends" this is rarely the case.

Many go onto coaching/manager careers, as well as media, press, commentating careers, and are the most prolific after-dinner-speakers on the circuit bar none.

So for many of the potential stars of welsh rugby the object is f@@k the regional game, get into the Welsh team fast track and cling onto your jersey for 50-60 caps and then at 26-30 yrs of age turn your back on the team that got them onto the international stage, become a cash journey man for 3-4 season, then close off your career back in Welsh rugby with perhaps a lower rated region (no disrespect to NGD at this point). All of a sudden you then see them becoming regional backs/forward coach, whilst commentating on BBC Wales/S4C/Sky/BT, whilst bringing out their second autobiography, and opening supermarkets, motivational courses for commercial management, before rushing off to do their After Dinner Events on the weekend....... and then some.

For the majority of the Welsh legends since the 1970s, they have very long, very lucrative careers, and I believe ROGs article is pretty much spot on.

And this is an exclusively Welsh condition is it? I Think not. Billy Beaumont, Andy Irvine and Keith Wood will still be telling big lies at Lodge dinners.

Actually I cannot see the relevance of what amateur players went on to do to this current scenario, the dynamics of amateur rugby and the pro game are as to be so different that to relate them to the current period suggests a fundamental misunderstanding of the issues facing Welsh regional rugby.

Must be only Welsh players who are market driven and follow the cash is that what you're saying…fact is the cash in Wales is with the Union not the clubs, perhaps in Scotland where the stars shine much less brighter they settle for less but the Welsh players are in huge demand because of their European success. In Ireland the fanaticism is enough it seems, perhaps not for Jonny Sexton though. In England the money is there at club level; 5 mill pay cap.

Point is, players follow the money and why shouldn't they, its a pro game. To suggest that in doing so they betray pride in their game is BS. Ther is a huge discrepancy between their regional and national achievements and that is the real point of ROG's bitter article, but that is not because the players aren't proud, it is because they sell their services just like the rest of us and the market decides where those services are most valuable.

Scratch wrote:perhaps in Scotland where the stars shine much less brighter they settle for less but the Welsh players are in huge demand because of their European success.

Notch wrote:Flyhalffactory, as you probably know well yourself BBC Alba often invite current Edinburgh and Glasgow players to co-commentate on Pro12 games. Normally guys who are injured. Whats most strange about it is that the main commentator speaks in Scottish Gaelic and the guest players/co-commentators speak English but on the whole it works very well. As a general rule I find the commentators who speak the languages I don't much less irritating than the ones I understand.