England vs Ireland

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Could be game of the six nations what do you think?

1/2p has not been rubbish - he is shackled by having to play to orders Hogg is good full stop. However Brown looks a very accomplished FB and could easily be in the team of the tournament come the end.

SecretFly wrote:

beshocked wrote:I do think the Irish overall except for Rodders are a bit overconfident.

I think I see only Guns saying he believes it will be an out and out win for Ireland (his prerogative by the way and quite a few English here aren't afraid of saying they think it'll be England that is victorious)
So who is the other over-confident Irish guys?  And what does 'over-confidence' mean?  Unrealistic expectations?  Even the pundits, English too, will be saying it's not exactly an impossibility that Ireland might win it.  Confident that we have the ability to win...not confident to the extent of saying 'we are going to win'.  Time will tell which it is.

I think to, be fair, it's not necessarily the Irish (except Guns and Gibson in 'Believe' mode) being overconfident but there have been a couple of Scots/Welsh posters who seem overconfident on their behalf and see this Ireland as the best side they have ever faced (slight overexaggeration for effect ).

Brown would never get a cap at fb if Hogg was English. Hogg is unbelievable with ball in hand.

beshocked wrote:Equally if you haven't beaten a side in a while you naturally freeze up a little bit as Ireland have done on numerous occasions vs NZ and Wales vs Australia. Both sides should have picked up a win at some point but the win has eluded them.

The point is thats never going to be the case with England and Ireland right now unless the English national side assets dominance over a longer period. Ireland have never lost to England when O'Driscoll, O'Connell and D'Arcy are all playing. A stat that means nothing with regards to what will actually happen in this game, but does illustrate why we have no fear over going to Twickenham. We've won there a fair number of times, we have a number of players who have experience of winning and the ones who haven't came through the system in an era where we would be very confident of winning there.

Going to Auckland, Paris, Melbourne or Pretoria is a massive psychological hurdle to Ireland. Twickenham isn't. This isn't to say we'll win, I'm just explaining why nobody in Ireland is in the slightest bit intimidated by this game. We are respectful and realistic enough to know we're probably slight underdogs but we also believe we can win there as we've beaten better English sides with worse Irish sides at Twickenham, to be perfectly honest.

1/2p looks a bit unsettled, maybe the contract talks took it out of him.

No doubt he'll play a blinder vs England!

Beshocked, Ireland won't be freezing against England.  

I think our win rate over the Six Nations time frame is roughly similar to each other.  Nothing historically to be afraid about, no psychological damage but for that bad, bad scrum day.  But that bad bad scrum day was also in the tenure of a bad, bad coaching set-up - that all Ireland including the players already knew about.  Ireland was fighting against itself then as much as it was against a dominant English scrum.

We don't believe we'll be a one dimensional team under Schmidt.  We could still get beaten by England of course - but reflecting that this is his first year in charge, that wouldn't be a disaster for Schmidt and his team and it still would be all to fight for in the last two games.

So nothing to fear.  Something to respect yes.  Something to be serious about preparing for.  But I hope that's a shared experience.

 

GunsGerms wrote:Brown would never get a cap at fb if Hogg was English. Hogg is unbelievable with ball in hand.

I think he would, have you seen him play in any Aviva Prem games?

Notch wrote:

beshocked wrote:Equally if you haven't beaten a side in a while you naturally freeze up a little bit as Ireland have done on numerous occasions vs NZ and Wales vs Australia. Both sides should have picked up a win at some point but the win has eluded them.

The point is thats never going to be the case with England and Ireland right now unless the English national side assets dominance over a longer period. Ireland have never lost to England when O'Driscoll, O'Connell and D'Arcy are all playing. A stat that means nothing with regards to what will actually happen in this game, but does illustrate why we have no fear over going to Twickenham. We've won there a fair number of times, we have a number of players who have experience of winning and the ones who haven't came through the system in an era where we would be very confident of winning there.

Going to Auckland, Paris, Melbourne or Pretoria is a massive psychological hurdle to Ireland. Twickenham isn't. This isn't to say we'll win, I'm just explaining why nobody in Ireland is in the slightest bit intimidated by this game. We are respectful and realistic enough to know we're probably slight underdogs but we also believe we can win there as we've beaten better English sides with worse Irish sides at Twickenham, to be perfectly honest.

100% spot on notch.

quinsforever wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Barney McGrew did it wrote:I smile when Mike Brown doesn’t get all the respect he’s earned. The most under-rated player in test rugby, and the best FB in the NH. Picks up MotMs for fun. Keep ignoring him I say, and keep me smiling.

Mind you he’ll have to work a bit harder when he finds he has Goode and Burrell as his wingers.

Our current wingers are far too green yet to be judged, and will definitely be targeted - but keep watching.

How can he possibly be the best FB in the NH when three players Hogg, Kearney (injured) and 1/2p world player of year nominee were selected ahead of him for the Lions tour?

HAHAHA. he hadnt even played FB for england before the Lions tour!

and as you should surely know GG, selection is very subjective.

this year, 1/2P has been rubbish. Kearney is a FB i really like to watch, and Hogg only looks good because the rest of his team are so poor (IMO).

and lets not forget Dulin who is a very slick runner at FB.

i would say that there is no-one who is better than Brown at FB in the NH, but he is not better than Kearney or Dulin this season. Brown's catching is really a marvel. Ireland are about to discover this.

He had, when he was much greener and a worse player on the NZ tour to hell, a bit off the bench in mostly lost causes, a game when very young in SA when he was vomiting beforehand but wanted to play for England so much he insisted he was well enough to do so and then was awful, and a bit of another game in SA when he broke his thumb and came off. Not quite the same exposure as since or as his rivals had though. He is currently in better form that halfpenny, whom I rate highly. He outplayed Hogg 2 days ago, though Hogg was Scotland's best back and hampered by the players around him. We will see what happens vs Kearney but my money is on Mike.

Oh and didn't Hogg go as 10 cover rather than as a 15? Did he even play 15 on that tour?

GunsGerms wrote:Brown would never get a cap at fb if Hogg was English. Hogg is unbelievable with ball in hand.

modern day FBs dont generally join attacking lines. Hogg only gets ball in hand by trying guts or glory interceptions. the most important characteristic of a modern FB is absolutely his catching. and in that regard, especially coming into a game against sexton, there is nobody who would take the shirt off Brown. no-one.

Loving all this Irish over confidence after a couple of wins. Just hope it spreads to the Irish squad.

Scrumpy wrote: 

GunsGerms wrote:Brown would never get a cap at fb if Hogg was English. Hogg is unbelievable with ball in hand.

 I think he would, have you seen him play in any Aviva Prem games?

I simply cannot believe you have watched Brown play. Possibly ever, which calls into question your commentary on the 6N so far. That is how ridiculous your comment just now was.

Sorry, that was to Guns, not Scrumpy. Brown's try scoring rate at FB at Club and European level is excellent, together with excellent defence (seen at all levels in that position) and brilliance under the high ball. He has also started to create more for other players recently. He makes yards past the gain line every time he carries and can kick as well as most international FBs (Hogg might have the bigger boot though). He has now starting scoring tries for England. I bet he scores another against Ireland

I'm not going to say Guns is anti-English but he's certainly English-sceptic

quinsforever wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Brown would never get a cap at fb if Hogg was English. Hogg is unbelievable with ball in hand.

modern day FBs dont generally join attacking lines. Hogg only gets ball in hand by trying guts or glory interceptions. the most important characteristic of a modern FB is absolutely his catching. and in that regard, especially coming into a game against sexton, there is nobody who would take the shirt off Brown. no-one.

Ermm - very very debatable. we need to revist this at the end of the series. Hogg is a great open field runner and very solid under the high ball. Brown is looking very good tho I would say.

Notch must have successfully blanked out the matches at Twickenham in 2008 and 2012 then! The 2008 variety was hardly a vintage England side. http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/7294610.stm

Secretfly you don't have nightmares of Danny Cipriani then?

I feel that you are underestimating England and Twickenham. If you hadn't lost the last two games vs England I could understand the confidence.

I just hope that I am indeed right and England do show why they should get more respect.

rodders wrote:Hmm not so sure about some of that - Toner isn't particularly physical for his size - Lawes is 6'7 and over 17st, O'Connell 6'6 and a similar weight. Hartley is definitely physically a bigger guy than Best regardless of the stats.

Vainapolo and Robshaw are bigger than the Irish back row combined ....  

If Toner is not physical for his size then surely it's more about Ireland playing their weight, not above it.  Lawes has always been considered a bit lightweight as Saints have deliberately not bulked him up to keep his athleticism (hopefully we'll see the advantage of that when he bulks out in his late 20s, only 24 now).  HArtley's not that big but he likes to thow his weight around. Perhaps it's more a case of English's front 5 often play above their weight giving the impression of size when it's not there. Being picky but England are often accused of having big lumps and that's not really the case any more.

The backrow however:
Wood 109kg, O'Mahony 108kg
Robshaw 110kg, Henry 107kg
Vunipola 126kg, Heaslip 110kg.

So Vunipola is as much over 100kg as your back row combined. Good hands for a fat lump as well (he's supposed to have lost a lot of weight a couple of years ago as well).

EDIT: these numbers are from the union websites. No idea when they're updated, Lawes' could have been from when he was U20 for all I know.

Cyril wrote:I'm not going to say Guns is anti-English but he's certainly English-sceptic

But at least he is good for a laugh, not like that FW190 guy

The thing that looks promising with Schmidt is his ability to assess points of attack and adpat those points to the opposition. For that reason alone, it will make compelling viewing to where Schmidt sees the best places to attack England, particularly with his forwards who are working well as a unit.

The collision of the packs will make for great viewing. Vunipola has been making great yards. I will be interested to see how Schmidt tackles that problem, if you´ll excuse the pun. I expect at kick offs for the Irish backrow to work together to nullify his returning runs and then that'll be interesting if Vunipola reacts to that and passes out wide.

Both sides are in good enough form. This game for me comes down to tactics and execution. It won't open up. It's going to be close quarter fighting.

I think Hogg is an excellence FB and does some things better than Brown, but "Brown would never get a cap at FB if Hogg were English" is a risable comment. Foden was seen as world class, and still is by many. Even if Hogg were (and I don't think he is) far the better FB, clearly that wouldn't stop other players getting capped would it? I'd argue if Brown were Scottish, Hogg would be playing wing or 10 or even 13, but not starting full back

Im definitely not anti-English gents. Win lose or draw I will be in London singing swing low as I always do after the match. I love the RFU and England rugby because I was raised on the six nations and it would be nothing without them or any other team for that matter.

I also have a friend whose brother is in the England squad and my uncle played for Wasps so I do like England, English rugby and people.

All the 6N bar Italy (and Masi is a good FB IMO too) can lay claim to at least 1 classy FB, it's an area of strength:

Hogg, Brown, Foden, Halfpenny, Byrne, Kearney, Dulin, Buttin

But Guns, you have gotten me riled now, you sly dog! But please, Ireland, try kicking the ball at Brown. See what happens

Im sure Lawes went on a bulking phase and im pretty he went up over 18st.

But weight doesnt give the whole picture...a lighter person could be a lot stronger and more powerful.

GunsGerms wrote:Im definitely not anti-English gents. Win lose or draw I will be in London singing swing low as I always do after the match. I love the RFU and England rugby because I was raised on the six nations and it would be nothing without them or any other team for that matter.

I also have a friend whose brother is in the England squad and my uncle played for Wasps.

Ah, I see, it's Wasps anti-Quins bias! All is forgiven

How long has Schmidt been in charge of Ireland now?

GeordieFalcon wrote:How long has Schmidt been in charge of Ireland now?

5 games. 3 wins.

And would you say theres been a clear change in game and standards.

GunsGerms wrote:

Barney McGrew did it wrote:I smile when Mike Brown doesn’t get all the respect he’s earned. The most under-rated player in test rugby, and the best FB in the NH. Picks up MotMs for fun. Keep ignoring him I say, and keep me smiling.

Mind you he’ll have to work a bit harder when he finds he has Goode and Burrell as his wingers.

Our current wingers are far too green yet to be judged, and will definitely be targeted - but keep watching.

How can he possibly be the best FB in the NH when three players Hogg, Kearney (injured) and 1/2p world player of year nominee were selected ahead of him for the Lions tour?

The clues in the 1st part of the sentence

GeordieFalcon wrote:Im sure Lawes went on a bulking phase and im pretty he went up over 18st.

But weight doesnt give the whole picture...a lighter person could be a lot stronger and more powerful.

Just had a look on wikipedia and they have him at 118kg, where as the RFU one is 111kg. Saints profile section seems to being reworked at the moment as none of the profiles have much information. He's certainly playing like he's bigger (carrying better). I would have thought the club one would be more accurate. Just looked at O'Connell's profile for Munster and it's the same as IRFU (112kg). That's central control for you. Consistency across websites

ChequeredJersey wrote:I think Hogg is an excellence FB and does some things better than Brown, but "Brown would never get a cap at FB if Hogg were English" is a risable comment. Foden was seen as world class, and still is by many. Even if Hogg were (and I don't think he is) far the better FB, clearly that wouldn't stop other players getting capped would it? I'd argue if Brown were Scottish, Hogg would be playing wing or 10 or even 13, but not starting full back

Foden used to be world class until he got a world class wife now he is average. A friend of mine used to go out with her. Some good stories.

GunsGerms wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:I think Hogg is an excellence FB and does some things better than Brown, but "Brown would never get a cap at FB if Hogg were English" is a risable comment. Foden was seen as world class, and still is by many. Even if Hogg were (and I don't think he is) far the better FB, clearly that wouldn't stop other players getting capped would it? I'd argue if Brown were Scottish, Hogg would be playing wing or 10 or even 13, but not starting full back

Foden used to be world class until he got a world class wife now he is average. A friend of mine used to go out with her. Some good stories.

Well, he's been a bit unlucky with injury too. And playing in an England side a couple of years ago that believed backs were purely for defence

GeordieFalcon wrote:And would you say theres been a clear change in game and standards.

Off the chart.

Previously we played the same tactic every match. We were the mist predictable team in the world and gave away too many penalties.

Under Schmidt our tactics have been different almost every game, error count gone and very few penalties. We are now really well drilled, the detail unbelievable and dicipline good.

ChequeredJersey wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:I think Hogg is an excellence FB and does some things better than Brown, but "Brown would never get a cap at FB if Hogg were English" is a risable comment. Foden was seen as world class, and still is by many. Even if Hogg were (and I don't think he is) far the better FB, clearly that wouldn't stop other players getting capped would it? I'd argue if Brown were Scottish, Hogg would be playing wing or 10 or even 13, but not starting full back

Foden used to be world class until he got a world class wife now he is average. A friend of mine used to go out with her. Some good stories.

Well, he's been a bit unlucky with injury too. And playing in an England side a couple of years ago that believed backs were purely for defence

Agreed. He is a quality player.

ChequeredJersey wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:I think Hogg is an excellence FB and does some things better than Brown, but "Brown would never get a cap at FB if Hogg were English" is a risable comment. Foden was seen as world class, and still is by many. Even if Hogg were (and I don't think he is) far the better FB, clearly that wouldn't stop other players getting capped would it? I'd argue if Brown were Scottish, Hogg would be playing wing or 10 or even 13, but not starting full back

Foden used to be world class until he got a world class wife now he is average. A friend of mine used to go out with her. Some good stories.

Well, he's been a bit unlucky with injury too. And playing in an England side a couple of years ago that believed backs were purely for defence

And we havent moved forward that much in that regards in a couple of years!

It's a very exciting (and worrying) time for Ireland. I look forward (and dread) to see what comes out of them in the next few years.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:I think Hogg is an excellence FB and does some things better than Brown, but "Brown would never get a cap at FB if Hogg were English" is a risable comment. Foden was seen as world class, and still is by many. Even if Hogg were (and I don't think he is) far the better FB, clearly that wouldn't stop other players getting capped would it? I'd argue if Brown were Scottish, Hogg would be playing wing or 10 or even 13, but not starting full back

Foden used to be world class until he got a world class wife now he is average. A friend of mine used to go out with her. Some good stories.

Well, he's been a bit unlucky with injury too. And playing in an England side a couple of years ago that believed backs were purely for defence

And we havent moved forward that much in that regards in a couple of years!

We've tried to play with the backs this 6N so far! Sometimes it's gone well, sometimes poorly but at least we've passed the wingers the ball.

Obviously it's all down to Care

Scrumpy wrote:Nowell reminds me a bit of 1/2p, I think he'll get better and better being in this environment.

and no its not just the scrum cap!

Scrumpy, 1/2p never had such a stupid looking haircut, worse than care was sporting last year.

quinsforever wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Brown would never get a cap at fb if Hogg was English. Hogg is unbelievable with ball in hand.

modern day FBs dont generally join attacking lines. Hogg only gets ball in hand by trying guts or glory interceptions. the most important characteristic of a modern FB is absolutely his catching. and in that regard, especially coming into a game against sexton, there is nobody who would take the shirt off Brown. no-one.

He gets the ball everytime it is kicked to him. His counter attack is better than any other FB in the NH. He is very difficult to tackle and he has a very good offload.

Kind of comes full circle and we're back at there's a number of full backs better than Brown yet he keeps performing at a great level for England. i'm happy with that.

Your right CJ at least we have tried. I think Nowell could be avery good. His break and pass for Browns try.

Farrell looking better, but i think Care has been a huge difference. He's controlled the tempo...kept defences guessing..and I like that Care has gone for drop goals. That shows initiative, and it keeps the score board ticking.

I showed a lot of frustration on the other thread the other day...maybe too much. My point is, im not looking for flashy razamataz rugby...i just want some efficiency. In try scoring situations...score them!

MissBlennerhassett wrote:Loving all this Irish over confidence after a couple of wins. Just hope it spreads to the Irish squad.

You say you might win on this thread and you're an idiot ...unless of course you're English. The English have a 6N certificate of worthiness in being cocky.  
Where can we buy one of those certs?

GeordieFalcon wrote:Im sure Lawes went on a bulking phase and im pretty he went up over 18st.

But weight doesnt give the whole picture...a lighter person could be a lot stronger and more powerful.

I am sure the pre 6N stats had both Lawes and Launchbury at a bit over 18 st and Attwood at 19st +

Add in 40+ stone of Vuniplolas and that is some weight for such athletic players

lostinwales wrote:

Cyril wrote:I'm not going to say Guns is anti-English but he's certainly English-sceptic

But at least he is good for a laugh, not like that FW190 guy

Do you mean Messerschmitt ME-109?

SecretFly wrote:

MissBlennerhassett wrote:Loving all this Irish over confidence after a couple of wins. Just hope it spreads to the Irish squad.

You say you might win on this thread and you're an idiot ...unless of course you're English.  The English have a 6N certificate of worthiness in being cocky.  
Where can we buy one of those certs?

Amazon  

SecretFly wrote:

MissBlennerhassett wrote:Loving all this Irish over confidence after a couple of wins. Just hope it spreads to the Irish squad.

You say you might win on this thread and you're an idiot ...unless of course you're English.  The English have a 6N certificate of worthiness in being cocky.  
Where can we buy one of those certs?

I can guarentee there isnt one Irish player that doesnt believe they are going to win this match. If you begin for a second to doubt it you have already lost.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Im sure Lawes went on a bulking phase and im pretty he went up over 18st.

But weight doesnt give the whole picture...a lighter person could be a lot stronger and more powerful.

I am sure the pre 6N stats had both Lawes and Launchbury at a bit over 18 st and Attwood at 19st +

Add in 40+ stone of Vuniplolas and that is some weight for such athletic players

That's a lotta space food!

Excellent. Both sides capable of winning, needing it, wanting it and believing they will is the best thing for the match. Ireland also need to assume they need to win this match: if you think that a narrow loss can be enough, you invite a heavy loss. See England, last year

ChequeredJersey wrote:Excellent. Both sides capable of winning, needing it, wanting it and believing they will is the best thing for the match.

Indeed - should be a cracker.

ChequeredJersey wrote:Excellent. Both sides capable of winning, needing it, wanting it and believing they will is the best thing for the match. Ireland also need to assume they need to win this match: if you think that a narrow loss can be enough, you invite a heavy loss. See England, last year

You're right. And just like England, they'll fight hard to win it (if they're not too busy being thrashed that is ) But yes, the Irish will play as if needing to win...and afterall, as they can't control any other games either in that week or down the line, they'll have to try to make the England game be another one under their belt. France, just like England, is no guarantee... so you could never do a maths thing on it and come to the conclusion that we could 'afford' to lose to England.

It is the semi final of the six nations for Ireland. If they win they are into the final v France.

GunsGerms wrote:It is the semi final of the six nations for Ireland. If they win they are into the final v France.

could still win even if they lose though