England vs Ireland

First topic message reminder :

Could be game of the six nations what do you think?

SecretFly wrote:I believe me.  England aren't at the races for me.  Sorry.  Want to beat them of course - as an opposition team.  Dreaming of beating them?  No.  Had Ireland won that epic game against New Zealand, with BOD on his last shot at it.... I would have been in Heaven for a few weeks.  Nope, England doesn't do that to me.  France are deep inside me as a team I'd love to get a run on.  History!

And funnily enough for me that's Ireland (in the 6 nations).

and long may it continue.   

Scrumpy wrote:You only have to look at how you guys build a game up against us to see that it just means more to you than any other fixture.

Grown men are reduced to tears when they sing there anthem against us, the fans celebrate more when a rare victory is achieved, books and TV documentaries are written about it.

You know it, we know it.   

You want to believe it...it's good for tourism The 20th Century is gone though. Them battles are over. This current generation never even heard of Empire unless you're talking about a Movie mag

GunsGerms wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:IRB ratings and betting odds suggest england are clear favourites.


Taking an aggregate of the last 3 fixtures Ireland have lost by 40 points.

Confident?

Yes. Ireland to win. Doubt any of the players care about IRB ratings. They didnt when they played Wales the last two times. Odds are also meaningless.

Your aggregate includes a game where Ireland lost by a heavy margin due to fielding two loosehead props. Hardly surprising. How does the aggregate look if you include the last 4 games?

The other two games were a lot closer.

I hate to tell you this but Ireland lost by over 20 points twice in the last three games at twickers. The most Ireland have won by since 1964 was 6 points.


As for the Wales game...Ireland were favourites in that by betting odds and the IRB ranking system which hasnt been wrong yet this six nations.

Im not saying ireland cant/wont win ...just if someone offers you evens on england...take it.

SecretFly wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:You only have to look at how you guys build a game up against us to see that it just means more to you than any other fixture.

Grown men are reduced to tears when they sing there anthem against us, the fans celebrate more when a rare victory is achieved, books and TV documentaries are written about it.

You know it, we know it.   

You want to believe it...it's good for tourism   The 20th Century is gone though.  Them battles are over.  This current generation never even heard of Empire unless you're talking about a Movie mag

Come come Secret, I won't hold it against you!

I've seen it first hand many a time, you like other Nations are just up for it more vs Little Old England.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

As for the Wales game...Ireland were favourites in that by betting odds and the IRB ranking system which hasnt been wrong yet this six nations.

which IRB ranking system were we favourites on (last week?)

IRB rankings for the last game Ireland 82.96, Wales 80.19. Ireland favourites (including the home advantage 3 points)

SecretFly wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

As for the Wales game...Ireland were favourites in that by betting odds and the IRB ranking system which hasnt been wrong yet this six nations.

which IRB ranking system were we favourites on (last week?)

The one in which you were les than 3 points behind Wales which gives a +3 weighting to the home team. The one that exists.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
I hate to tell you this but Ireland lost by over 20 points twice in the last three games at twickers. The most Ireland have won by since 1964 was 6 points.


As for the Wales game...Ireland were favourites in that by betting odds and the IRB ranking system which hasnt been wrong yet this six nations.

Im not saying ireland cant/wont win ...just if someone offers you evens on england...take it.

Sure the game three games ago in Twickers was in 2008. Ireland beat England by 30 points in Croke park the year before. Big deal.

I dont care how much Ireland win by anyway but I have a good feeling about this one.

Scrumpy wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:You only have to look at how you guys build a game up against us to see that it just means more to you than any other fixture.

Grown men are reduced to tears when they sing there anthem against us, the fans celebrate more when a rare victory is achieved, books and TV documentaries are written about it.

You know it, we know it.   

You want to believe it...it's good for tourism   The 20th Century is gone though.  Them battles are over.  This current generation never even heard of Empire unless you're talking about a Movie mag

 Come come Secret, I won't hold it against you!

I've seen it first hand many a time, you like other Nations are just up for it more vs Little Old England.  

The bubble has burst Scrumpy. I think you'll have to start talking about Iraqis and others now. We've moved on. New Zealand Numero Uno. France second. Wales (in the last half decade) third. You might be 4th. That's the best I can do for you. If we have a lovely battle in two weeks, I'll try to upgrade you in my mind. That's the very best I can do for you

I'd take a 3-0 victory 'Care DG 79min'   

I think some of you have taken your eye off the ball here. It’s protocol to baggsie the under-dog tag as the game approaches.

Here’s the thing – although most would agree that England are better than Ireland and should win (ref, weather, TY and bouncing ball allowing) Ireland are clearly the favourites and must go into the match with the heavy weight of expectation of a definite GS.

HammerofThunor wrote:IRB rankings for the last game Ireland 82.96, Wales 80.19. Ireland favourites (including the home advantage 3 points)

? Last week, before the game, Ireland were ahead of Wales in IRB rankings? Is that what you're saying?

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:IRB ratings and betting odds suggest england are clear favourites.


Taking an aggregate of the last 3 fixtures Ireland have lost by 40 points.

Confident?

Yes. Ireland to win. Doubt any of the players care about IRB ratings. They didnt when they played Wales the last two times. Odds are also meaningless.

Your aggregate includes a game where Ireland lost by a heavy margin due to fielding two loosehead props. Hardly surprising. How does the aggregate look if you include the last 4 games?

The other two games were a lot closer.

I hate to tell you this but Ireland lost by over 20 points twice in the last three games at twickers. The most Ireland have won by since 1964 was 6 points.


As for the Wales game...Ireland were favourites in that by betting odds and the IRB ranking system which hasnt been wrong yet this six nations.

Im not saying ireland cant/wont win ...just if someone offers you evens on england...take it.

If I saw England evens then I'd definitely take it. I reckon England should be 3-5 point favourites for this game. I think it the range is a narrow 5 point win to Ireland up to a 13 point win for England.

I like this England side. Lancaster has them playing honest. Lawes is becoming a class player, he was always a specimen looking for the highlight hit, but his fundamentals are really solid now. Hartley isn't having his usual moment of madness. Care is concentrating on the game and really stepping up. Some of the relative new names in the backline are showing they can step up to Test level and really deliver a performance.

It should be a good game. If we get a ref who keeps the game flowing it could be a cracker.

Barney McGrew did it wrote:I think some of you have taken your eye off the ball here. It’s protocol to baggsie the under-dog tag as the game approaches.

Here’s the thing – although most would agree that England are better than Ireland and should win (ref, weather, TY and bouncing ball allowing) Ireland are clearly the favourites and must go into the match with the heavy weight of expectation of a definite GS.

England must win. Ireland want to win. No expectation of GS on us. Nobody believes we'll do it...most of all the better team we'll be meeting.

Maybe its me being sombre but have Ireland really played that well yet? The game against the AB's was great but should really have finished that off. So far in the 6N Ireland have been solid at best. The backs, which many vaunted JS to make electric, have not really been that good aside a few individual moments.

Going to really see what they are made of at Twickers against England who I think have been the best team this tournament. I can only see an England victory.

SecretFly wrote:
The bubble has burst Scrumpy.  I think you'll have to start talking about Iraqis and others now.  We've moved on.  New Zealand Numero Uno.  France second.  Wales (in the last half decade) third.  You might be 4th.  That's the best I can do for you.  If we have a lovely battle in two weeks, I'll try to upgrade you in my mind.  That's the very best I can do for you

That is simply not true when I've been surrounded by rival supporters at these games or in a Pub, you know it I know it   

SecretFly wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:IRB rankings for the last game Ireland 82.96, Wales 80.19. Ireland favourites (including the home advantage 3 points)

?  Last week, before the game, Ireland were ahead of Wales in IRB rankings?  Is that what you're saying?

The ratings are given a plus 3 factor for a home team. Wales were ranked above Ireland, but Ireland at home were favourites under the system.

Its not that complicated.

Have we ever had a pre-match thread fill up over a week before the game even kicks off?

Nachos Jones wrote:Maybe its me being sombre but have Ireland really played that well yet? The game against the AB's was great but should really have finished that off. So far in the 6N Ireland have been solid at best. The backs, which many vaunted JS to make electric, have not really been that good aside a few individual moments.

Going to really see what they are made of at Twickers against England who I think have been the best team this tournament. I can only see an England victory.

They havent played that well I agree but they have got tactics right, cut out a lot of errors and are quite well drilled. As such there is a good improvement. I read a stat that until Saturday we hadnt won back to back games since '09. Not sure if that is accurate.

Scrumpy wrote:

SecretFly wrote:
The bubble has burst Scrumpy.  I think you'll have to start talking about Iraqis and others now.  We've moved on.  New Zealand Numero Uno.  France second.  Wales (in the last half decade) third.  You might be 4th.  That's the best I can do for you.  If we have a lovely battle in two weeks, I'll try to upgrade you in my mind.  That's the very best I can do for you

That is simply not true when I've been surrounded by rival supporters at these games or in a Pub, you know it I know it   

Scrumpy...you're losing the argument.  It ain't so.  If it was so I'd be here giving it plenty more 'passion' than I'm doing.  This is far too nice a thread for anyone to believe England v Ireland is anything more than a necessary game to get through for both.  It ain't close to being Wales v England... and won't be. I would bet it won't even come close to some of the fists and jaws stuff of last week that formed part of the Ireland v Wales build-up.  It's much too polite in here. It ain't hot.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:IRB rankings for the last game Ireland 82.96, Wales 80.19. Ireland favourites (including the home advantage 3 points)

?  Last week, before the game, Ireland were ahead of Wales in IRB rankings?  Is that what you're saying?

The ratings are given a plus 3 factor for a home team. Wales were ranked above Ireland, but Ireland at home were favourites under the system.

Its not that complicated.

So the ranking system called the game? And you say it mostly always calls a game? Hmmm................ I must start betting on things (I don't)

Chjw131 wrote:Have we ever had a pre-match thread fill up over a week before the game even kicks off?

Well it is the six nations semi final.

SecretFly wrote:

Barney McGrew did it wrote:I think some of you have taken your eye off the ball here. It’s protocol to baggsie the under-dog tag as the game approaches.

Here’s the thing – although most would agree that England are better than Ireland and should win (ref, weather, TY and bouncing ball allowing) Ireland are clearly the favourites and must go into the match with the heavy weight of expectation of a definite GS.

England must win.  Ireland want to win.  No expectation of GS on us.  Nobody believes we'll do it...most of all the better team we'll be meeting.

You have to approach it as must win. Otherwise, losing is acceptable, and once you start losing, you might find it very hard to make it only a narrow loss not an absolute stuffing!

ChequeredJersey wrote:
You have to approach it as must win. Otherwise, losing is acceptable, and once you start losing, you might find it very hard to make it only a narrow loss not an absolute stuffing!

Exactly every Ireland player believes they are going to win, guarenteed.

If England were playing the way Ireland have been we'd be labelled as one thing, boring!

GunsGerms wrote:

Chjw131 wrote:Have we ever had a pre-match thread fill up over a week before the game even kicks off?

Well it is the six nations semi final.

Apparently so!

GunsGerms wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:
You have to approach it as must win. Otherwise, losing is acceptable, and once you start losing, you might find it very hard to make it only a narrow loss not an absolute stuffing!

Exactly every Ireland player believes they are going to win, guarenteed.

and even if they didn't they certainly wouldn't say otherwise.

GunsGerms wrote:

Chjw131 wrote:Have we ever had a pre-match thread fill up over a week before the game even kicks off?

Well it is the six nations semi final.

Really? who are the unbeaten teams so far?

ChequeredJersey wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Barney McGrew did it wrote:I think some of you have taken your eye off the ball here. It’s protocol to baggsie the under-dog tag as the game approaches.

Here’s the thing – although most would agree that England are better than Ireland and should win (ref, weather, TY and bouncing ball allowing) Ireland are clearly the favourites and must go into the match with the heavy weight of expectation of a definite GS.

England must win.  Ireland want to win.  No expectation of GS on us.  Nobody believes we'll do it...most of all the better team we'll be meeting.

You have to approach it as must win. Otherwise, losing is acceptable, and once you start losing, you might find it very hard to make it only a narrow loss not an absolute stuffing!

Never mind about me though -I'm just a fan. What I think doesn't matter - the team will approach the game to win it as well as they can. But pressure? It's on England. Must-win game to keep them in the Championship. Ireland can slip up and still be next to England on future chances.

TJ wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Chjw131 wrote:Have we ever had a pre-match thread fill up over a week before the game even kicks off?

Well it is the six nations semi final.

Really?  who are the unbeaten teams so far?  

Ireland and France. That will be the final.

Ah - now I understand

Cyril wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:
You have to approach it as must win. Otherwise, losing is acceptable, and once you start losing, you might find it very hard to make it only a narrow loss not an absolute stuffing!

Exactly every Ireland player believes they are going to win, guarenteed.

and even if they didn't they certainly wouldn't say otherwise.

Do you think some of them think they are going to lose? Not in a million years.

I actually think Wales will beat France and Ireland lose to France.

England beating Ireland and Wales.

Then we can't mess up vs Italy can we?

GunsGerms wrote:

Cyril wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:
You have to approach it as must win. Otherwise, losing is acceptable, and once you start losing, you might find it very hard to make it only a narrow loss not an absolute stuffing!

Exactly every Ireland player believes they are going to win, guarenteed.

and even if they didn't they certainly wouldn't say otherwise.

Do you think some of them think they are going to lose? Not in a million years.

I don't propose to know what's going on in their heads. We'll wait for the autobiographies

SecretFly wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:

SecretFly wrote:
The bubble has burst Scrumpy.  I think you'll have to start talking about Iraqis and others now.  We've moved on.  New Zealand Numero Uno.  France second.  Wales (in the last half decade) third.  You might be 4th.  That's the best I can do for you.  If we have a lovely battle in two weeks, I'll try to upgrade you in my mind.  That's the very best I can do for you

That is simply not true when I've been surrounded by rival supporters at these games or in a Pub, you know it I know it   

Scrumpy...you're losing the argument.  It ain't so.  If it was so I'd be here giving it plenty more 'passion' than I'm doing.  This is far too nice a thread for anyone to believe England v Ireland is anything more than a necessary game to get through for both.  It ain't close to being Wales v England... and won't be.  I would bet it won't even come close to some of the fists and jaws stuff of last week that formed part of the Ireland v Wales build-up.  It's much too polite in here. It ain't hot.  

It's true. Some England fans still have a hang over from 2003 - when England were the best team in the world. Then sure everybody wanted a piece of them, as is the norm for any sporting hierarchy. To beat them meant you were good enough to be #1 yourselves.
My theory is that this idea amongst England supporters that they are somehow perennial under dogs because everyone is against them and wants to make a point particularly to beat them is probably indicative that so many of England's current fan base started watching the game simply because England were successful, and they haven't realised there is no history before 2002 and the feelings died out around 2004 when they were discredited as a world beating side.

If the planets of the solar system are the contenders for world rugby domination then I have England as Pluto - once a planet but downgraded in status. Bubbling along in the outer belt with other minor rubble, occasionally swinging close enough to the bright centre of gravity to maintain atmosphere, but that soon evaporating.

Chjw131 wrote:If England were playing the way Ireland have been we'd be labelled as one thing, boring!

So call us boring.    It's for others to throw that at us.  So if people feel the impulse to say it - say it.

That was a quick holiday, GE!

Cyril wrote:I actually think Wales will beat France and Ireland lose to France.

England beating Ireland and Wales.

Then we can't mess up vs Italy can we?

Warning: Over-confident Police Force are on duty in this thread, Cyril. Be careful. I know I almost got handcuffed and tazzered already

SecretFly wrote:

Cyril wrote:I actually think Wales will beat France and Ireland lose to France.

England beating Ireland and Wales.

Then we can't mess up vs Italy can we?

Warning:  Over-confident Police Force are on duty in this thread, Cyril.  Be careful.  I know I almost got handcuffed and tazzered already

Hang on officer! I did say I wasn't 100% sure about beating Italy...

GloriousEmpire wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:

SecretFly wrote:
The bubble has burst Scrumpy.  I think you'll have to start talking about Iraqis and others now.  We've moved on.  New Zealand Numero Uno.  France second.  Wales (in the last half decade) third.  You might be 4th.  That's the best I can do for you.  If we have a lovely battle in two weeks, I'll try to upgrade you in my mind.  That's the very best I can do for you

That is simply not true when I've been surrounded by rival supporters at these games or in a Pub, you know it I know it   

Scrumpy...you're losing the argument.  It ain't so.  If it was so I'd be here giving it plenty more 'passion' than I'm doing.  This is far too nice a thread for anyone to believe England v Ireland is anything more than a necessary game to get through for both.  It ain't close to being Wales v England... and won't be.  I would bet it won't even come close to some of the fists and jaws stuff of last week that formed part of the Ireland v Wales build-up.  It's much too polite in here. It ain't hot.  

It's true. Some England fans still have a hang over from 2003 - when England were the best team in the world. Then sure everybody wanted a piece of them, as is the norm for any sporting hierarchy. To beat them meant you were good enough to be #1 yourselves.
My theory is that this idea amongst England supporters that they are somehow perennial under dogs because everyone is against them and wants to make a point particularly to beat them is probably indicative that so many of England's current fan base started watching the game simply because England were successful, and they haven't realised there is no history before 2002 and the feelings died out around 2004 when they were discredited as a world beating side.

If the planets of the solar system are the contenders for world rugby domination then I have England as Pluto - once a planet but downgraded in status. Bubbling along in the outer belt with other minor rubble, occasionally swinging close enough to the bright centre of gravity to maintain atmosphere, but that soon evaporating.

Youre the one who has the well worn VHS, still watching it back to try and prove NZ wouldve won it 9 times out of 10?

SecretFly wrote:

Chjw131 wrote:If England were playing the way Ireland have been we'd be labelled as one thing, boring!

So call us boring.    It's for others to throw that at us.  So if people feel the impulse to say it - say it.

Errrmmm - apart from it wasn't the boring england style. A lot more dynamic than that and did not rely on forcing penalties as england did in their boring boring phase

Cyril wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Cyril wrote:I actually think Wales will beat France and Ireland lose to France.

England beating Ireland and Wales.

Then we can't mess up vs Italy can we?

Warning:  Over-confident Police Force are on duty in this thread, Cyril.  Be careful.  I know I almost got handcuffed and tazzered already

Hang on officer! I did say I wasn't 100% sure about beating Italy...

Would it be arrogant of the welsh to be confident of beating scotchland?

GunsGerms wrote:Do you think some of them think they are going to lose? Not in a million years.

Most sportsmen know the fear of failure. For some, it can be paralysing; for others, it's the motivation to achieve great things. There are a select few with total self-belief who can deliver great performances but even the finest players usually have a seed of doubt in their mind.

TJ wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Chjw131 wrote:If England were playing the way Ireland have been we'd be labelled as one thing, boring!

So call us boring.    It's for others to throw that at us.  So if people feel the impulse to say it - say it.

Errrmmm - apart from it wasn't the boring england style.  A lot more dynamic than that and did not rely on forcing penalties as england did in their boring boring phase

Which 'boring boring phase' are you referring to TJ? We've had a few so it's best to be specific.

Cyril - Dean Richards up the jumper years :-) that surely was the main part of the boring boring England

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
Would it be arrogant of the welsh to be confident of beating scotchland?

yes - given how poor Wales now look and that surely Scotland can't be that hopeless again can they?  

SecretFly wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Barney McGrew did it wrote:I think some of you have taken your eye off the ball here. It’s protocol to baggsie the under-dog tag as the game approaches.

Here’s the thing – although most would agree that England are better than Ireland and should win (ref, weather, TY and bouncing ball allowing) Ireland are clearly the favourites and must go into the match with the heavy weight of expectation of a definite GS.

England must win.  Ireland want to win.  No expectation of GS on us.  Nobody believes we'll do it...most of all the better team we'll be meeting.

You have to approach it as must win. Otherwise, losing is acceptable, and once you start losing, you might find it very hard to make it only a narrow loss not an absolute stuffing!

Never mind about me though -I'm just a fan.  What I think doesn't matter - the team will approach the game to win it as well as they can. But pressure?  It's on England.  Must-win game to keep them in the Championship.  Ireland can slip up and still be next to England on future chances.

I'm not sure that is true. Both sides will be feeling pressure, but I think just as much will be on Ireland. Both sides will also be confident

Our team is English. We are far too arrogant to go into a match not believing we will win. Far more likely to be complacent (I don't think we will) than fearful!

I would suspect a little bit of trepidation from England.