England vs Ireland

First topic message reminder :

Could be game of the six nations what do you think?

Notch wrote: Are we not allowed to believe in our team now?

Thats what its feels like to be an English fan on V2 sometimes!

Of course you can believe in your side but Ireland are not the favourites so should not be treated as such.

GloriousEmpire wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

MissBlennerhassett wrote:Self belief and over confidence (or cockiness if you like fly) are very different, and there's quite a lot of over confidence from some Irish fans on here - ok I have only found this site today so not much track record to go by.
I can understand the optimism with a new regime after the latter years under Kidney, but I would wager no one in the Irish camp are writing off this English team that has been building and improving over a good 2 years, taking some mighty scalps on the way, the same way some on here seem to be. 3 wins out of 5 is perhaps an encouraging start but no more than that, the team have hardly set the world alight, whereas the new England have, albeit only at times.

Point out the over-confident comments Miss.  We'll discuss how over-confident any comments are when you point them out to us.  But as I said earlier, I think Guns is the only poster who has come out and placed his cards on the table (an Irish win).  Meanwhile there are a good few, shall we say, comfortably confident English posters here - glad they're here and pleased to meet them  Just as it should be.

But we maintain the right to say we have a chance, that we might win, that we could win, that we have players with the potential to win etc etc.  This is not Wales v England.  We Irish won't be knocked back into a kicking and screaming box of passion and fury meltdown.  We'll just repeat that if some English people think they'll win, then we reserve the right to think we have a chance too.

Sigh. It's always a "new" England isn't it? They're always "building" and "improving" aren't they? They need seem to be built though. Expectations raise and falter like the tide. This weeks super star is tomorrow's dropped devil. England scraped past a deli posted Australia with the help of some very home calls from the referees and took out NZ when they had the norovirus. Can't think what these great scalps were...

I'm sitting back quietly and waiting for the ensuing great English implosion. At which point Lancaster will have "been holding England back" and we will see another "new" England who are "building" no doubt. Let's be honest it's more than a decade since they won a tournament of note and that is starting to look pretty old, whenever I check the battered vhs.

Weren't you meant to be vacating the country or something? No internet access as I understood it.

Scrumpy wrote:

Notch wrote: Are we not allowed to believe in our team now?

Thats what its feels like to be an English fan on V2 sometimes!

  

beshocked wrote: Of course you can believe in your side but Ireland are not the favourites so should not be treated as such.

The "favorites" tag is just a reflection of how many people think a certain team will win. Englands odds are always shorter than reality would dictate because there is a massive population of England fans.

Ireland revel in not being favorites anyway so it only helps their cause.

beshocked wrote:Apologies Secretfly when reading some of the comments on the rest of thread you can see that it's mostly an Irish WUM, a Welsh WUM and a Scottish WUM who are bigging up Ireland.

Though Gibson and Artful Dodger have been overconfident about Ireland too.

by Gibson Yesterday at 7:49 pm
Artful_Dodger wrote:All I'm going to say it that I have a lot of faith in Joe Schmidt's game plan and that I think for England to beat us I think they will have to put in something very special in every area of the pitch.  I'm really starting to see Schmidt as a strategic and tactical genius.  

And that's   exactly what will win it for us. He is light years ahead of the rest in the NH. As is Sexton at 10. The two main reasons why we will beat England. And beat them well.

Believe.

Gibbo is the biggest Irish wum on the site!  We have a Statue of him at IRFU headquarters...oh and at the RDS showgrounds too (Leinster home base)  

He's also a man who believes in the idea of Belief...as in he believes in Schmidt and isn't afraid to say it in public.  He wears his heart on his sleeve and I don't think he has too many enemies in 606. He has a big heart and when he congratulates an opponent after battle, he means it.

The thing is Gibbo would admit he likes talking fancy and giving the ball a good kick when he's at it.  It's his style... but he has friends everywhere (real ones - real meet up ones) from every hue - English, Welsh, Scottish etc.  He's old school - the kind who knows that wumming is just a new PC word for the banter that has gone on in 5N/6N city pubs for decades.

Sometimes people are too sensitive in this technological world  Enjoy the swordplay... and always see where anything we accuse each other of (as Nations) can always be seen in posters from our own Nation.  It's just we don't readily acknowledge it or probably see it when it's coming from our own.

Still not convinced by our bench but I don't think SL will change it for the next two fixtures unless injuries take hold, I was hopeing after last year in Cardiff some lessons would have been learnt by SL.

Once his made up his mind he seems to stick to it regardless whether its for the good of the team.

Scrumpy wrote:Back on topic.

I didn't see BODs reaction after the game on Sat, was he some what happy?

I think he was happy that Gatling was unhappy.

yappysnap wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:And would you say theres been a clear change in game and standards.

Off the chart.

Previously we played the same tactic every match. We were the mist predictable team in the world and gave away too many penalties.

Under Schmidt our tactics have been different almost every game, error count gone and very few penalties. We are now really well drilled, the detail unbelievable and dicipline good.

I'm not looking to WUM or anything GG but i've heard this a couple of times about Schmidt. If that's the case then what happened about Australia in the AI's? They seemed there for the taking for you guys but it wasn't even close, was that just a one off or signs of underlying issues?

That was his second game in charge. When he was apointed manager of Leinster he completely overhauled the way Leinster played. It took a while for the players to adapt to his game plan and as a result Leinster lost quite a few of his first games in charge and people were calling for his head. Once everyone started singing from the same hymnsheet Leinster became unstoppable.

I think you can see there has been a massive improvement since the Oz match.

SecretFly wrote:

beshocked wrote:Apologies Secretfly when reading some of the comments on the rest of thread you can see that it's mostly an Irish WUM, a Welsh WUM and a Scottish WUM who are bigging up Ireland.

Though Gibson and Artful Dodger have been overconfident about Ireland too.

by Gibson Yesterday at 7:49 pm
Artful_Dodger wrote:All I'm going to say it that I have a lot of faith in Joe Schmidt's game plan and that I think for England to beat us I think they will have to put in something very special in every area of the pitch.  I'm really starting to see Schmidt as a strategic and tactical genius.  

And that's   exactly what will win it for us. He is light years ahead of the rest in the NH. As is Sexton at 10. The two main reasons why we will beat England. And beat them well.

Believe.

Gibbo is the biggest Irish wum on the site!  We have a Statue of him at IRFU headquarters...oh and at the RDS showgrounds too (Leinster home base)  

He's also a man who believes in the idea of Belief...as in he believes in Schmidt and isn't afraid to say it in public.  He wears his heart on his sleeve and I don't think he has too many enemies in 606.  He has a big heart and when he congratulates an opponent after battle, he means it.

The thing is Gibbo would admit he likes talking fancy and giving the ball a good kick when he's at it.  It's his style... but he has friends everywhere (real ones - real meet up ones) from every hue - English, Welsh, Scottish etc.  He's old school - the kind who knows that wumming is just a new PC word for the banter that has gone on in 5N/6N city pubs for decades.

Sometimes people are too sensitive in this technological world  Enjoy the swordplay... and always see where anything we accuse each other of (as Nations) can always be seen in posters from our own Nation.  It's just we don't readily acknowledge it or probably see it when it's coming from our own.

Nah he's a bollix...  

beshocked wrote: Of course you can believe in your side but Ireland are not the favourites so should not be treated as such.

  

Jesus man, you must live a very sheltered life! In any sporting contest which is roughly 50/50 or 55/45 or whatever one set of fans will back their team and the other set of fans will back their team. Thats the nature of what sports fans are like. This game is hard to predict and could go either way, not a shock fans think it will go the way of the team they just happen to support! There's not really a clear favourite like there would be when New Zealand play England or Ireland or England play Scotland or Italy. We have two teams that are roughly on a par with each other and the fans comments on both sides reflect that.

If you're going to go on about over-confidence every time that happens you're just going to make yourself look like a stick in the mud. Especially when dealing with someone like Gibbo who has never been entirely serious about anything in his entire life! He'll run rings around you if he sees this post   

Yes, he is also a bollix...

You keep on acting like England are clear favourites but they aren't. They are marginal favourites in a fixture which traditionally has had a lot of surprises and close games over the past few years at a time when Ireland are playing quite well. It'll be a humdinger.

Just to point out that beshocked takes serious issue with fans from opposition teams believing they can win. Apparently Ulster fans are incredibly arrogant for thinking we can beat Saracens in the upcoming HC quarter final.

The guy real has a serious complex about opposition fans believing they can win.

Ireland are favourites to win, 2 form 2, 0 tries conceded, BOD at the top of his game, let them have that tag if that’s what they want!

England like most teams play better when we're written off.

Notch that's the thing I don't think it will go either way. I think it will be an England win. I expect the higher ranked side with the better head to head record in the last two matches and with home advantage to win.

I think you are being overconfident that's my opinion. If you win, fair enough I'll be wrong.

As me-109 likes to spitefully point out I have been wrong on a few occasions. I might get it wrong again.

No artful dodger you've got it wrong. Saracens are the underdogs when they come to Ulster. Something I acknowledge. Realistically Saracens will lose though I hope we can pull off an upset. I actually said I thought you were writing off Saracens though perhaps I am wrong.

I also said that Ulster were overconfident last season when they played Saracens at Twickenham - something I still believe because I felt there was no reason for the overconfidence and so it proved.

Scrumpy wrote:Ireland are favourites to win, 2 form 2, 0 tries conceded, BOD at the top of his game,  let them have that tag if that’s what they want!

England like most teams play better when we're written off.

Haha. Stop trying to turn it around.

Turn what around?

Right, but as an adult surely you have had to deal with the fact opinions tend to vary? Because someone disagrees with you it doesn't mean they are over-confident. They have a different view.

This is an incredibly patronising and dismissive attitude towards people who disagree with you- you get that right?

IRB ratings and betting odds suggest england are clear favourites.


Taking an aggregate of the last 3 fixtures Ireland have lost by 40 points.

Confident?

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:IRB ratings and betting odds suggest england are clear favourites.


Taking an aggregate of the last 3 fixtures Ireland have lost by 40 points.

Confident?

I remain quietly confident we can and will win, yes. You guys really... don't get this do you?

so how much heavy timber CAN we shave off a matchstick or two of odd stray words found on a 606 thread ?

beshocked wrote: Of course you can believe in your side but Ireland are not the favourites so should not be treated as such.

But you also took serious issue with Ulster fans believing they can win the HC quarter final when they are favourites? So favourites or not you seem to have a distinct problem with fans from the other team that have the sheer gall to think they can win?

You really need to show a bit more respect towards fans from other teams and for yourself, cause every other time I see you post you put your foot in it then later make a post about how you have to eat humble pie (see London Irish beating Saracens at the weekend) ...maybe you wouldn't have to eat humble pie if you could come to terms with fans from other teams being confident?

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:IRB ratings and betting odds suggest england are clear favourites.


Taking an aggregate of the last 3 fixtures Ireland have lost by 40 points.

Confident?

Yes. Ireland to win. Doubt any of the players care about IRB ratings. They didnt when they played Wales the last two times. Odds are also meaningless.

Your aggregate includes a game where Ireland lost by a heavy margin due to fielding two loosehead props. Hardly surprising. How does the aggregate look if you include the last 4 games?

The other two games were a lot closer.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:IRB ratings and betting odds suggest england are clear favourites.


Taking an aggregate of the last 3 fixtures Ireland have lost by 40 points.

Confident?

England are favourites!  That's what Ireland are demanding and, thanks be to God, some English fans are now coming around to the idea

But the game...................................... we'll see.  Nobody can just take the maximum points from a game yet to be played simply because they were favourites before it was played.  Yis can't be leapfrogging us and deciding not to play us at all at all just because favouritism suggests it's a guaranteed win anyway  

So far England are the only team to win away from home this 6 Nations!   

Ireland will join you in two weeks time

The thing is, if we lose its not much. We're still in with a shot at the title- it's another learning experience on the way to the top. There won't be much to call us out on because we aren't the ones talking our team up.

But if the overwhelming favourites lose to poor, little Ireland- oh my! The Humble Pie thread on this forum is gonna be some roll call! I might even make it a sticky until the next round of games    

(Note; not really)

The pack is looking high quality at the moment. As i've mentioned before this latest performance is the fourth in a row where i've been very impressed with the balance and attitude in the pack. Billy V has made an impact on the international stage, Robshaw and Wood have settled into a very complimentary flank partnership and the locking situation has been almost resolved.

Where I think we've regressed slightly is in the scrum. On current evidence missing Corbisiero has taken the scrum from aggressive to passive. That's a slight concern. Against the Irish we'll need to psychologically challenge in both the scrum and line-out.

Lawes' form has been blistering so far and he's been the stand-out player for me. His line-out has not been tested much however, and I see he's called a lot of balls to himself. With Toner and POC there that will be a big challenge.

As far as the maul goes, it's gone relatively well for us. But having a good maul going forward doesn't equate to having a good maul defence. That is true for the Irish as well.

The backline seems to be settling but on the whole it's still inexperienced. I haven't seen Burrell really shown up yet and he's taken to it very well so far. He will be up against some serious experience in D'Arcy and O'Driscoll though.

The main areas that Ireland could look to exploit, I feel, are: Scrum, Line-out, kicks through. The wingers are still in their infancy and Nowell can be caught out at times. Care isn't as good a sweeper as Youngs and this could be an issue.

The final area of concern for England is the bench. Forwards-wise the only issue is Tom Youngs, and not for his excellent work around the park. If Webber can be brought in (is he injured?) then I think that will help and we won't lose anything ball carrying-wise.

The backs selection remains a bit of a joke. Bringing GF onto the bench for this game would be a big call. How he hasn't managed to get at least 20 mins up to now is beyond me. If Farrell goes down early Goode will be hugely exposed as stand-in FH.

Further, Barritt should either start or not figure. He has some serious qualities but impact from the bench is not one of them. Bringing someone like Watson onto the bench is a big call but arguably not as big as GF. He'd add another Wing/FB option and is solid under the high ball with a good kicking game.

Notch wrote:The thing is, if we lose its not much. We're still in with a shot at the title- it's another learning experience on the way to the top. There won't be much to call us out on because we aren't the ones talking our team up/

But if the overwhelming favourites lose to poor, little Ireland- oh my! The Humble Pie thread on this forum is gonna be some roll call! I might even make it a sticky until the next round of games    

(Note; not really)

Not a hope we are pants and will get beaten out the gate by the mighty English rugby team....faith and begorrah yur honour...

Artful Dodger

You are probably right but I do acknowledge when I get it wrong. I don't mind Ulster fans believing they can win - I just felt they were dismissive of the threat.

I get predictions wrong occasionally sure but I get it right more often than not in my opinion - you could argue that is arrogant but if I get it wrong I hold up my hands and say so.

I give credit where it's due.

You are right - perhaps I need to come to terms with fans being confident in their own sides even if I feel it is unwarranted.

I think Schmidts impact has been quicker than Lancasters was.

This is going to be an interesting game.

I have been critical of our ability to finish off chances and lo behold Robshaw and Lancs both say they should have won by more and didnt take chances.

If we are to beat Ireland, we're going to need to be very efficient and clinical.

This site is a strange place.

If English fans say we're favourites we're arrogant if we say Ireland is we are told not to turn it around!

We can't f-ing win can we, what ever we say!

One thing for sure is that beating England is the top of everyone’s list apart from maybe Italy!

and that fact imo speaks volumes.
  

beshocked wrote:

You are right - perhaps I need to come to terms with fans being confident in their own sides even if I feel it is unwarranted.

It actually even becomes more fun and less stressful the more you allow opposing fans to think what they like. Fun to verbally battle with them but also fun to acknowledge that their opinions won't be changing regardless of what is said in the verbal sword fight.

We shouldn't try to change each others opinions (impossible) but just offer the alternative view. There is always an alternative view.

beshocked wrote:Artful Dodger

You are probably right but I do acknowledge when I get it wrong. I don't mind Ulster fans believing they can win - I just felt they were dismissive of the threat.

I get predictions wrong occasionally sure but I get it right more often than not in my opinion - you could argue that is arrogant but if I get it wrong I hold up my hands and say so.

I give credit where it's due.

You are right - perhaps I need to come to terms with fans being confident in their own sides even if I feel it is unwarranted.

  

Anyway I do think it will be an interesting match - plenty of good players on each side.

Halfback battle and Heaslip vs Billy are the ones I will be most interested in though.

Scrumpy wrote:This site is a strange place.

If English fans say we're favourites we're arrogant if we say Ireland is we are told not to turn it around!

We can't f-ing win can we, what ever we say!

One thing for sure is that beating England is the top of everyone’s list apart from maybe Italy!

and that fact imo speaks volumes.
  

No no, no Scrumpy.  You're lookin' at the words but you're not reading  If England say they are favourites - most Irish fans are happy with that.  We are.  It's been said here over an over.  You're favourite.  But being favourite isn't the game.  We can still argue that we could win the game.  But when we say that, some people say that's an overly-confident thing to say and to think.....!!!  

So be it - we're going to play a game and I think most Irish players will be doing their duty and trying to...win.  It's not a sin saying we might win


As regards England being the team everyone wants to beat.  NO.  New Zealand is the team Ireland wants to beat above all others (we don't know how to do that yet and we'd like to see what it might feel like!)...next up is France, a side that has kept us off top spot in 6N more than I think any other side in 6N history.  We desperately want to start beating them.  Then Wales.  Then England.

Scrumpy wrote:One thing for sure is that beating England is the top of everyone’s list apart from maybe Italy!

and that fact imo speaks volumes.
  

Nope- three words for you. Wales. Wales. Wales.

We may not like England, but Wales... its a different level.

Outside of the Six Nations South Africa and New Zealand are the top sides in world rugby and to get a win is a way bigger achievement against them than anyone else, so they'd be way ahead.

SecretFly wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:This site is a strange place.

If English fans say we're favourites we're arrogant if we say Ireland is we are told not to turn it around!

We can't f-ing win can we, what ever we say!

One thing for sure is that beating England is the top of everyone’s list apart from maybe Italy!

and that fact imo speaks volumes.
  

No no, no Scrumpy.  You're lookin' at the words but you're not reading  If England say they are favourites - most Irish fans are happy with that.  We are.  It's been said here over an over.  You're favourite.  But being favourite isn't the game.  We can still argue that we could win the game.  But when we say that, some people say that's an overly-confident thing to say and to think.....!!!  

So be it - we're going to play a game and I think most Irish players will be doing their duty and trying to...win.  It's not a sin saying we might win


As regards England being the team everyone wants to beat.  NO.  New Zealand is the team Ireland wants to beat above all others 9we don't know how to do that yet and we'd like to see what it might feel like!)...next up is France, a side that has kept us off top spot in 6N more than I think any othr side in 6N history.  We desperately want to start beating them.  Then Wales.  Then England.

I don't believe you!

SecretFly wrote:

beshocked wrote:

You are right - perhaps I need to come to terms with fans being confident in their own sides even if I feel it is unwarranted.

It actually even becomes more fun and less stressful the more you allow opposing fans to think what they like.  Fun to verbally battle with them but also fun to acknowledge that their opinions won't be changing regardless of what is said in the verbal sword fight.

We shouldn't try to change each others opinions (impossible) but just offer the alternative view.  There is always an alternative view.

Of course it's possible to change people's opinions, including one's own. If the contrary were true, what is the value of opinions?

Its always been England for the Celts and France.

Always will be too.  

DaveM wrote:

Jhamer25 wrote:DaveM,
Last year I thought Englands work at the breadown was like no other teams.  They constantly put pressure at the break down which gave their opposition slow  ball and was just a nightmare to defend against. The autumn especially, they were flawless.  The like of Hartley, cole,launchbery, Wood and billy were constantly putting pressure on opposition but I haven't seen that in their first two games.
I'm not saying ireland will have the advantage here but its an area where they should definitely look at. I think healey can do a job in cole but mike ross is just aweful because he collapses under pressure after the hit (like yesterday). If he can stay up then Healey will have a good chance against Cole
England's line out has been there main strength in the first two games and will be evenly matched.

I haven't got the stats, but England won the breakdown in both games. They key thing is England are generating good quality ball, which is probably a big part of the reason Care has just had two of the best games of his career.  

Ni I can't find the stats either. Anyway, I just think England have been better in the not so long ago past. I've always said Care was the best option for England, when he plays like he has there is no doubt that he is the most dangerous 9 in the competition. I would kill to have a 9 like him but were stuck with a snail pace service from mike. And in fairness to Owen he has improves his attacking game of late so your not week in that position. I just feel Sexton's kicking game is a lot better and is where he will get the advantage over Farrell. Care will give England the momentum and pace they need though, it's just whether the forwards can match up to them at the maul and breakdown. I know England can do better at the breakdown otherwise I wouldn't mention it.

I believe me.  England aren't at the races for me.  Sorry.  Want to beat them of course - as an opposition team.  Dreaming of beating them?  No.  Had Ireland won that epic game against New Zealand, with BOD on his last shot at it.... I would have been in Heaven for a few weeks.  Nope, England doesn't do that to me.  France are deep inside me as a team I'd love to get a run on.  History!

Scrumpy wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:This site is a strange place.

If English fans say we're favourites we're arrogant if we say Ireland is we are told not to turn it around!

We can't f-ing win can we, what ever we say!

One thing for sure is that beating England is the top of everyone’s list apart from maybe Italy!

and that fact imo speaks volumes.
  

No no, no Scrumpy.  You're lookin' at the words but you're not reading  If England say they are favourites - most Irish fans are happy with that.  We are.  It's been said here over an over.  You're favourite.  But being favourite isn't the game.  We can still argue that we could win the game.  But when we say that, some people say that's an overly-confident thing to say and to think.....!!!  

So be it - we're going to play a game and I think most Irish players will be doing their duty and trying to...win.  It's not a sin saying we might win


As regards England being the team everyone wants to beat.  NO.  New Zealand is the team Ireland wants to beat above all others 9we don't know how to do that yet and we'd like to see what it might feel like!)...next up is France, a side that has kept us off top spot in 6N more than I think any othr side in 6N history.  We desperately want to start beating them.  Then Wales.  Then England.

I don't believe you!

In recent years its been New Zealand/France as the main teams we want to beat.

Scrumpy wrote:Its always been England for the Celts and France.

Always will be too.  

Now we have to admit to an English fairytale that isn't true?? My God, have we no right to our own minds on this site???!!!!

SecretFly wrote:I believe me.  England at the races for me.  Sorry.  Want to beat them of course - as an opposition team.  Dreaming of beating them?  No.  Had Ireland won that epic game against New Zealand, with BOD on his last shot at it.... I would have been in Heaven for a few weeks.  Nope, England doesn't do that to me.  France are deep inside me as a team I'd love to get a run on.  History!

If France are deep inside you, are the other EU states your vital parts?

You only have to look at how you guys build a game up against us to see that it just means more to you than any other fixture.

Grown men are reduced to tears when they sing their anthem against us, the fans celebrate more when a rare victory is achieved, books and TV documentaries are written about it.

You know it, we know it.  

Still fun mind.   

Not for Ireland in recent years - they have beaten Enland enough that it is bo longer so. for scotland is is definitely true

Chjw131 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:I believe me.  England at the races for me.  Sorry.  Want to beat them of course - as an opposition team.  Dreaming of beating them?  No.  Had Ireland won that epic game against New Zealand, with BOD on his last shot at it.... I would have been in Heaven for a few weeks.  Nope, England doesn't do that to me.  France are deep inside me as a team I'd love to get a run on.  History!

If France are deep inside you, are the other EU states your vital parts?

Well I suppose Italy is one significant part... but this is family viewing 606