England vs Ireland

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Could be game of the six nations what do you think?

lostinwales wrote:

Chjw131 wrote:Hyperbole seems to be the watch-word from every quarter!

Let's get this thread finished so we can start another. That will surely prove that this game is the biggest, most anticipated, best game of the six, or even five nations competition ever in the history of sport, the World nay the Universe.

I dont know about best game but after some ups and downs this is turning into one of the best threads I have seen on here for a long time. Good quality banter

  

Chjw131 wrote:

MissBlennerhassett wrote:It seems to me that Schmidt"s "master tactics" seem to be 9 man old school rugby - very effective and well executed. Nothing particularly enlightening there. I think England's post modern 15 man game will prove too much. We outplayed France for 70 minutes in their own backyard and should have closed out the game easily but didn't because we are by no means the finished article.
The Irish game will be however the toughest test for England, as any team with good players playing to a simple game plan are always hard to beat.

Indeed, as I said earlier in the thread BORING rugby again from Ireland.

The point with Schmidts tactics is he gave them three or four different ways to play against Wales. Plan A, B, C and D- each one could be executed depending on the way the game is going. If you're expecting the exact same game plan again you'll be disappointed- the weaknesses of England are different to the weaknesses of Wales so we won't attack England in the same way. Thats where he differs from other coaches- everything is individually tailored for each side he faces. His teams don't really have one style of play; they have several and will use the most appropriate one.

Ireland are still developing the full repertoire, no doubt, and it will take time and there will be setbacks along the way but this kind of writing us off is silly. This isn't an Ireland team coached by the likes of Declan Kidney.

SecretFly wrote:

Cyril wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:

SecretFly wrote:More Irish players are probably known around Europe (in Germany, Spain, Georgia, Romania etc (anywhere were there is a reasonable interest in rugby and they can get to watch HEC) than English players on the current English team...or indeed even the Welsh players on the current Welsh one.  Quite a number of Irish players have earned a reputation....long term.

Pure speculation and not fact!  

I think that if these players are known the folk in Germany, Spain etc probably assume they are English.

Yeah Cyril... cling to it for comfort

You were the one that made the outrageous claim of Irish celebrity in the lower reaches of European rugby

No doubt there's already a Lithuanian shrine to POM featuring such relics as Wayne Barnes' shirt graced by the great one's spittle. It's a miracle! It never dries!

GunsGerms wrote:I think Burrell has been very good to be honest.

two tries in two games does not a superstar make. but he's big, clever, good defensively and make a good start to his international career. 36 is going to be nervous when tuilagi comes back and takes the 13 shirt.

given all the hand-wringing going on in threads a few weeks ago about the devastating injury list of backs...i think almost every england fan would be quite pleased with how well the new lads have seized their opportunities so far.

ireland will be a proper test for them after mud-wrestling against a very weak scotland.

GeordieFalcon wrote:English overhyping?

I think you'll find most of the recent England threads have been critical of picking a host of new players, our props not scrummaging like they have previously...Cole being out of form etc.

Ive seen a few players hyped like Lawes, Billy Vunipola, Care and Brown and rightly so they have played exceptionally well.

But who else has been hyped?

Nowell? He has been praised for a good start to his international career and yet also been criticised for a few issues in the first 20 mins of his first ever game at this level.

There you go.  In England hyping is called rounded and reasonable 'praise'.  

In Ireland's case, praise is 'over-hyping' or 'over-confidence'.  We've kinda been accused of both from the get go here on this thread.  

Now do some real reading.  Back all the way to the beginning and see that Irish people are saying we have a 'chance' to win in England.  Not that we'll make schit of England, not that it's going to be a cricket score, not the POM is going to score four of his own tries - in the first half.  

We are 'praising' some of our players and if you care to look at what irish people are saying on other threads you'll see plenty of 'Ifs and And' about performance levels, right or wrong players for the English game, needing to find different gears if we're to beat England etc.  And then there is a special one called POM is GOD.  Look through that to see if Irish people are 'over-hyping' players!  Then read some of your media on the English boys...and the scores they give them for a defeat of a sorry and terribly coached Scotland.

Scrumpy wrote:

SecretFly wrote:More Irish players are probably known around Europe (in Germany, Spain, Georgia, Romania etc (anywhere were there is a reasonable interest in rugby and they can get to watch HEC) than English players on the current English team...or indeed even the Welsh players on the current Welsh one.  Quite a number of Irish players have earned a reputation....long term.

Pure speculation and not fact!  

That's cause they've been around forever...

Notch wrote:

Chjw131 wrote:

MissBlennerhassett wrote:It seems to me that Schmidt"s "master tactics" seem to be 9 man old school rugby - very effective and well executed. Nothing particularly enlightening there. I think England's post modern 15 man game will prove too much. We outplayed France for 70 minutes in their own backyard and should have closed out the game easily but didn't because we are by no means the finished article.
The Irish game will be however the toughest test for England, as any team with good players playing to a simple game plan are always hard to beat.

Indeed, as I said earlier in the thread BORING rugby again from Ireland.

The point with Schmidts tactics is he gave them three or four different ways to play against Wales. Plan A, B, C and D- each one could be executed depending on the way the game is going. If you're expecting the exact same game plan again you'll be disappointed- the weaknesses of England are different to the weaknesses of Wales so we won't attack England in the same way. Thats where he differs from other coaches- everything is individually tailored for each side he faces. His teams don't really have one style of play; they have several and will use the most appropriate one.

Ireland are still developing the full repertoire, no doubt, but this kind of writing us off is silly.

Notch they forgot to mention that this 15 man game dominated France for 70 mins and lost and dominated Scotland and could only put 20 points on them.

Chjw131 wrote:

MissBlennerhassett wrote:It seems to me that Schmidt"s "master tactics" seem to be 9 man old school rugby - very effective and well executed. Nothing particularly enlightening there. I think England's post modern 15 man game will prove too much. We outplayed France for 70 minutes in their own backyard and should have closed out the game easily but didn't because we are by no means the finished article.
The Irish game will be however the toughest test for England, as any team with good players playing to a simple game plan are always hard to beat.

Indeed, as I said earlier in the thread BORING Winning/Intelligent rugby again from Ireland.

FIXED.

Schmidt plays the opposition thats called using your brain.
His tactics against Wales were different from NZ - they will be different again against England.

MissBlennerhassett wrote:It seems to me that Schmidt"s "master tactics" seem to be 9 man old school rugby - very effective and well executed. Nothing particularly enlightening there. I think England's post modern 15 man game will prove too much. We outplayed France for 70 minutes in their own backyard and should have closed out the game easily but didn't because we are by no means the finished article.
The Irish game will be however the toughest test for England, as any team with good players playing to a simple game plan are always hard to beat.

Maybe if you only watched the last match. he has used different tactics every game so far. Did you watch the NZ game? Was that 9 man rugby? He also attacked the Scots out wide.

Chjw131 wrote:

gregortree wrote:Total rugby, as in Dublin 2003, as in most of the Paris game, as in Edinburgh, mud and blatant Scots infringing allowing.
We hope for a dry Twickenham, the Thames to have subsided, no nematodes in the roots, and decent reffing of the breakdown.
Who is the ref btw?

Steve Walsh...

Good God man, don't do that to me again. Was preparing my congratulatory post to the Irish before I saw you were joking

Notch wrote:

Chjw131 wrote:

MissBlennerhassett wrote:It seems to me that Schmidt"s "master tactics" seem to be 9 man old school rugby - very effective and well executed. Nothing particularly enlightening there. I think England's post modern 15 man game will prove too much. We outplayed France for 70 minutes in their own backyard and should have closed out the game easily but didn't because we are by no means the finished article.
The Irish game will be however the toughest test for England, as any team with good players playing to a simple game plan are always hard to beat.

Indeed, as I said earlier in the thread BORING rugby again from Ireland.

The point with Schmidts tactics is he gave them three or four different ways to play against Wales. Plan A, B, C and D- each one could be executed depending on the way the game is going. If you're expecting the exact same game plan again you'll be disappointed- the weaknesses of England are different to the weaknesses of Wales so we won't attack England in the same way. Thats where he differs from other coaches- everything is individually tailored for each side he faces. His teams don't really have one style of play; they have several and will use the most appropriate one.

Ireland are still developing the full repertoire, no doubt, and it will take time and there will be setbacks along the way but this kind of writing us off is silly. This isn't an Ireland team coached by the likes of Declan Kidney.

Notch, generally I love a good technical debate but most of this thread is taken up with quite the reverse. I have temporarily abandoned such notions and currently conforming to the English 'one-eyed' stereotype which a lot of posters seems to accuse us of. Further, i've already had the technical 're-education' regarding Schmidt's coaching manual from Secret earlier in the thread. As if I don't watch rugby FFS!

Thus: boring rugby from Ireland. Saint Schmidt is as over-hyped as the team. A whitewash by England by their favourite scoreline: 3-0.

Cyril wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Cyril wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:

SecretFly wrote:More Irish players are probably known around Europe (in Germany, Spain, Georgia, Romania etc (anywhere were there is a reasonable interest in rugby and they can get to watch HEC) than English players on the current English team...or indeed even the Welsh players on the current Welsh one.  Quite a number of Irish players have earned a reputation....long term.

Pure speculation and not fact!  

I think that if these players are known the folk in Germany, Spain etc probably assume they are English.

Yeah Cyril... cling to it for comfort

You were the one that made the outrageous claim of Irish celebrity in the lower reaches of European rugby

No doubt there's already a Lithuanian shrine to POM featuring such relics as Wayne Barnes' shirt graced by the great one's spittle. It's a miracle! It never dries!

What's outrageous about HEC being watched in more European countries than the participating ones???? You don't know that happens? Ask McCafferty. That's the bit he likes. It's why we wants to rule the World, so that he can sell his Ap sides to the European masses who love the HEC

Do keep up with the history of club rugby in Europe Cyril.

Notch wrote:

Chjw131 wrote:

MissBlennerhassett wrote:It seems to me that Schmidt"s "master tactics" seem to be 9 man old school rugby - very effective and well executed. Nothing particularly enlightening there. I think England's post modern 15 man game will prove too much. We outplayed France for 70 minutes in their own backyard and should have closed out the game easily but didn't because we are by no means the finished article.
The Irish game will be however the toughest test for England, as any team with good players playing to a simple game plan are always hard to beat.

Indeed, as I said earlier in the thread BORING rugby again from Ireland.

The point with Schmidts tactics is he gave them three or four different ways to play against Wales. Plan A, B, C and D- each one could be executed depending on the way the game is going. If you're expecting the exact same game plan again you'll be disappointed- the weaknesses of England are different to the weaknesses of Wales so we won't attack England in the same way. Thats where he differs from other coaches- everything is individually tailored for each side he faces. His teams don't really have one style of play; they have several and will use the most appropriate one.

Ireland are still developing the full repertoire, no doubt, and it will take time and there will be setbacks along the way but this kind of writing us off is silly. This isn't an Ireland team coached by the likes of Declan Kidney.

i think you're giving him too much credit there notch. he only needed one strategy as gatland only has plan A. and the irish strategy was effective, and very simple, and the welsh were not good enough.

it was a very NZ/SA strategy - high, accurate kick-chase, aggressive rucking, kick for position, and win/turn over key lineouts. there is no conincidence that this is why Wales always lose to SH teams.

GunsGerms wrote:I think Burrell has been very good to be honest.

Guns, now you are hyping our men !
(run out of your own men to hype?)

Cyril wrote:POM was lucky Wayne Barnes was in 'understanding' mode last week.

He (POM) and the Irish in general need to stop bending the ref's ear. It's going to end badly soon. Joubert really should have stood up to them better the week before. Saying 'you need to stop them shouting at me' is not the sign of a strong ref.

It's one thing having a go at the ref when you're winning. When they're on the back foot against England I think we'll see a bit of marching back 10 yards and possibly a few cards.

Believe.

Trouble is Barnes could do nothing against POM because he had failed to penalize Phillips for far worse earlier
To have done so would have been very inconsistant and opened up an accusation of bias
He should have pinged Philips earlier - as he didn't he made a rod for his own back

Scrumpy wrote:'Tom Youngs' Geordie unless thats the reason Ben is out of the team!

tbf Toms a center and Bens a winger/FH

ChequeredJersey wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:

SecretFly wrote:More Irish players are probably known around Europe (in Germany, Spain, Georgia, Romania etc (anywhere were there is a reasonable interest in rugby and they can get to watch HEC) than English players on the current English team...or indeed even the Welsh players on the current Welsh one.  Quite a number of Irish players have earned a reputation....long term.

Pure speculation and not fact!  

That's cause they've been around forever...

...and winning. Old men winning has a romantic element to it..especially against Superstar young and dashing Musketeer sides like Clermont

gregortree wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:I think Burrell has been very good to be honest.

Guns, now you are hyping our men !
(run out of your own men to hype?)

Just Burrell really. Obviously Care, Robshaw and Cole are also key men.

Dont rate Brown. He is decent, international class but not as good as the plaudits he is getting.

Yeah it's true Marty. I wouldn't be very confident at all if England were playing particularly well but so far they've been a bit scrappy, looked pretty beatable in the short-term and I expect they will improve from this point and peak at the Rugby World Cup. That is what their aim is, thats more important to the coaches than this championship- but still. We have an opportunity here in that next time we play them, England will be stronger.

Similarly I'm saying the fact we'll have the tactics spot on is cause for the smart England fan to be wary- but that won't win you a really difficult test match if you're even 5-10% off in terms of physicality and intensity. So I do see it poised at about 50/50 with England slight favourites because I think 1-15 England will have that desperation- they know they've let two games slip by without playing close to the standards they have to be aiming for, they know another loss takes them out of the running and this is their first home game so I expect them to be at fever pitch. If we match that, combined with the technical stuff our coaches are giving us, we'll be in with a good chance.

Tbh, I'd take a defeat with less than 5 points without being too disappointed because I think we'd be in a good position to win in Round 4 and 5 and we'd be right in there.

BamBam wrote:

Chjw131 wrote:

gregortree wrote:Total rugby, as in Dublin 2003, as in most of the Paris game, as in Edinburgh, mud and blatant Scots infringing allowing.
We hope for a dry Twickenham, the Thames to have subsided, no nematodes in the roots, and decent reffing of the breakdown.
Who is the ref btw?

Steve Walsh...

Good God man, don't do that to me again. Was preparing my congratulatory post to the Irish before I saw you were joking

They're holding Walsh back for a little game at HQ next year between Eng and Wales!

You've heard it here 1st!

gregortree wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:I think Burrell has been very good to be honest.

Guns, now you are hyping our men !
(run out of your own men to hype?)

Burrell is a good player and him and Manu would be the best for England's future from what I have seen.

Then again he made be a good 12 but just you wait till Olding burst on the international scene - then you will have a real 12   

re brown, a lot of his biggest fans (me) are particularly loud because he has been ignored for so long. a bit like his celebration when he scored a try vs scotland. vindication!

Notch wrote:
Tbh, I'd take a defeat with less than 5 points without being too disappointed because I think we'd be in a good position to win in Round 4 and 5 and we'd be right in there.

That wouldnt be a disaster but I would be pretty disapointed to be honest. I strongly believe we have the squad to beat teams like England and should be aiming for nothing less.

quinsforever wrote:
i think you're giving him too much credit there notch. he only needed one strategy as gatland only has plan A. and the irish strategy was effective, and very simple, and the welsh were not good enough.

it was a very NZ/SA strategy - high, accurate kick-chase, aggressive rucking, kick for position, and win/turn over key lineouts. there is no conincidence that this is why Wales always lose to SH teams.

Why didn't England try it last year? If it's so simple, and everybody knows it's the way to beat Wales, why hasn't it been done by England? It might be done now...but it'll be because they'll have looked at the Irish tactics. "If the Irish can beat them, so can we" Pay us later if you win with the method.

quinsforever wrote:re brown, a lot of his biggest fans (me) are particularly loud because he has been ignored for so long. a bit like his celebration when he scored a try vs scotland. vindication!

but his try v Scotland was just a run in really wasnt it? For his try v France he showed good footwork and strength but it was also poor French defending I think its fair to say.

obviously there are no certainties in intl rugby at this level. either side really could win. and both sides will keep playing til the final whistle for every point, irrespective who is in the lead, because goal difference may be a key factor overall.

i'm having to get my banter in this week as i am away the week leading up to matchday!

The Welsh press described Schmidt approach best - "Tactically malleable"

Who knows what way Ireland will play v England.

GunsGerms wrote:

quinsforever wrote:re brown, a lot of his biggest fans (me) are particularly loud because he has been ignored for so long. a bit like his celebration when he scored a try vs scotland. vindication!

but his try v Scotland was just a run in really wasnt it? For his try v France he showed good footwork and strength but it was also poor French defending I think its fair to say.

you obviously missed that brown came in for a lot of criticism for his celebration of scoring, and he posted on twitter that he wasnt jeering anyone, was just really really pleased to scored. thats what i meant by vindication. he, and his fans, feel vindication every time he does well. yes it was a run-in try.

GunsGerms wrote:

Notch wrote:
Tbh, I'd take a defeat with less than 5 points without being too disappointed because I think we'd be in a good position to win in Round 4 and 5 and we'd be right in there.

That wouldnt be a disaster but I would be pretty disapointed to be honest. I strongly believe we have the squad to beat teams like England and should be aiming for nothing less.

Oh obviously we should be aiming to win every game in the Six Nations. There are 4 teams who are on a par with each other and anyone of them is capable of a Slam every year- so that should be what all four are targeting, quietly, game by game. It's the same for England as it is for us.

SecretFly wrote:

quinsforever wrote:
i think you're giving him too much credit there notch. he only needed one strategy as gatland only has plan A. and the irish strategy was effective, and very simple, and the welsh were not good enough.

it was a very NZ/SA strategy - high, accurate kick-chase, aggressive rucking, kick for position, and win/turn over key lineouts. there is no conincidence that this is why Wales always lose to SH teams.

Why didn't England try it last year?  If it's so simple, and everybody knows it's the way to beat Wales, why hasn't it been done by England?  It might be done now...but it'll be because they'll have looked at the Irish tactics.  "If the Irish can beat them, so can we"    Pay us later if you win with the method.

wales played much better at MS, to win the 6N last year than last saturday. and the old scrum rules had some fairly bizarre interpretations that gave wales a distinct edge in one element of set pieces.

england dont need lessons in how to beat wales fly i think you will find.

wales were rubbish and lucky most of last 6N. they were awesome against england. not complicated to understand

SecretFly wrote:

quinsforever wrote:
i think you're giving him too much credit there notch. he only needed one strategy as gatland only has plan A. and the irish strategy was effective, and very simple, and the welsh were not good enough.

it was a very NZ/SA strategy - high, accurate kick-chase, aggressive rucking, kick for position, and win/turn over key lineouts. there is no conincidence that this is why Wales always lose to SH teams.

Why didn't England try it last year?  If it's so simple, and everybody knows it's the way to beat Wales, why hasn't it been done by England?  It might be done now...but it'll be because they'll have looked at the Irish tactics.  "If the Irish can beat them, so can we"    Pay us later if you win with the method.

Sorry- it's not really so much that I'm giving him credit, more that thats what Sexton has said about how we prepared for Wales and it fits in with how his teams always approach games.

quinsforever wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

quinsforever wrote:re brown, a lot of his biggest fans (me) are particularly loud because he has been ignored for so long. a bit like his celebration when he scored a try vs scotland. vindication!

but his try v Scotland was just a run in really wasnt it? For his try v France he showed good footwork and strength but it was also poor French defending I think its fair to say.

you obviously missed that brown came in for a lot of criticism for his celebration of scoring, and he posted on twitter that he wasnt jeering anyone, was just really really pleased to scored. thats what i meant by vindication. he, and his fans, feel vindication every time he does well. yes it was a run-in try.

To be honest I didnt really notice the celebration. Maybe I was spaced out at the time. I suspect Brown isnt the attention seeking type. He seems really professional to me.

quinsforever wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

quinsforever wrote:
i think you're giving him too much credit there notch. he only needed one strategy as gatland only has plan A. and the irish strategy was effective, and very simple, and the welsh were not good enough.

it was a very NZ/SA strategy - high, accurate kick-chase, aggressive rucking, kick for position, and win/turn over key lineouts. there is no conincidence that this is why Wales always lose to SH teams.

Why didn't England try it last year?  If it's so simple, and everybody knows it's the way to beat Wales, why hasn't it been done by England?  It might be done now...but it'll be because they'll have looked at the Irish tactics.  "If the Irish can beat them, so can we"    Pay us later if you win with the method.

wales played much better at MS, to win the 6N last year than last saturday. and the old scrum rules had some fairly bizarre interpretations that gave wales a distinct edge in one element of set pieces.

england dont need lessons in how to beat wales fly i think you will find.

wales were rubbish and lucky most of last 6N. they were awesome against england. not complicated to understand

Aka Steve Walsh is a massive knob

Notch wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Notch wrote:
Tbh, I'd take a defeat with less than 5 points without being too disappointed because I think we'd be in a good position to win in Round 4 and 5 and we'd be right in there.

That wouldnt be a disaster but I would be pretty disapointed to be honest. I strongly believe we have the squad to beat teams like England and should be aiming for nothing less.

Oh obviously we should be aiming to win every game in the Six Nations. There are 4 teams who are on a par with each other and anyone of them is capable of a Slam every year- so that should be what all four are targeting, quietly, game by game. It's the same for England as it is for us.

Yeah I know what your saying Notch. Just, when you say "I'd take a defeat..." doesnt sit well with me. Seems quite defeatist to me.

SL is using this 6 Nations to try players out.

Doesn't matter if we lose in the short term as long as we strengthen the squad for next year.

Ireland and Wales need to do the same otherwise they are going to have some big holes to fill in a RWC year.

brown got some criticism from brian moore and matt dawson. not a big deal, which brown classily cleared up on twitter and brian moore apologised for.

SecretFly wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:English overhyping?

I think you'll find most of the recent England threads have been critical of picking a host of new players, our props not scrummaging like they have previously...Cole being out of form etc.

Ive seen a few players hyped like Lawes, Billy Vunipola, Care and Brown and rightly so they have played exceptionally well.

But who else has been hyped?

Nowell? He has been praised for a good start to his international career and yet also been criticised for a few issues in the first 20 mins of his first ever game at this level.

There you go.  In England hyping is called rounded and reasonable 'praise'.  

In Ireland's case, praise is 'over-hyping' or 'over-confidence'.  We've kinda been accused of both from the get go here on this thread.  

Now do some real reading.  Back all the way to the beginning and see that Irish people are saying we have a 'chance' to win in England.  Not that we'll make schit of England, not that it's going to be a cricket score, not the POM is going to score four of his own tries - in the first half.  

We are 'praising' some of our players and if you care to look at what irish people are saying on other threads you'll see plenty of 'Ifs and And' about performance levels, right or wrong players for the English game, needing to find different gears if we're to beat England etc.  And then there is a special one called POM is GOD.  Look through that to see if Irish people are 'over-hyping' players!  Then read some of your media on the English boys...and the scores they give them for a defeat of a sorry and terribly coached Scotland.

If you had read the Scottish - England thread you will find that myself and several other England fans on here were highly ciritical that against a poor side we were very inefficienct and clinical when we had chances.

Whilst i maybe went over the top suggesting NZ or SA would have put 50-60 points that Scotland team, they would certainly have put 30 - 40 points on them and they are the benchmark.

I for one am certainly not overhyping anyone, and was far from completely impressed by our Scottish win.

Notch wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

quinsforever wrote:
i think you're giving him too much credit there notch. he only needed one strategy as gatland only has plan A. and the irish strategy was effective, and very simple, and the welsh were not good enough.

it was a very NZ/SA strategy - high, accurate kick-chase, aggressive rucking, kick for position, and win/turn over key lineouts. there is no conincidence that this is why Wales always lose to SH teams.

Why didn't England try it last year?  If it's so simple, and everybody knows it's the way to beat Wales, why hasn't it been done by England?  It might be done now...but it'll be because they'll have looked at the Irish tactics.  "If the Irish can beat them, so can we"    Pay us later if you win with the method.

Sorry- it's not really so much that I'm giving him credit, more that thats what Sexton has said about how we prepared for Wales and it fits in with how his teams always approach games.

fair enough, hadnt seen sextons comments. as it turned out though, only response-plan-A was needed as wales failed to respond. maybe having the plans for other scenarios gave confidence. is always good to know the coach has ideas for how to adapt.

quinsforever wrote:
wales played much better at MS, to win the 6N last year than last saturday. and the old scrum rules had some fairly bizarre interpretations that gave wales a distinct edge in one element of set pieces.

england dont need lessons in how to beat wales fly i think you will find.

wales were rubbish and lucky most of last 6N. they were awesome against england. not complicated to understand

No.... Quins, that won't work. Wales were in awesome mood many times and still never got round to beating SH...because of SH strategy (your opinion, not mine).
You say everyone knows it, why didn't England use it? Simple question.

Ireland didn't just beat them this year with Plan A, they beat them last year with Plan Kidney (which wasn't much of a plan at all) in one half.

Scrumpy wrote:SL is using this 6 Nations to try players out.

Doesn't matter if we lose in the short term as long as we strengthen the squad for next year.

Ireland and Wales need to do the same otherwise they are going to have some big holes to fill in a RWC year.

England already have the youngest squad in the 6 nations. Mind you I think Seabiscuit or someone pointed out that almost all Englands new players are there due to injuries or real absence of form as in Ashton's case.

SecretFly wrote:

quinsforever wrote:
wales played much better at MS, to win the 6N last year than last saturday. and the old scrum rules had some fairly bizarre interpretations that gave wales a distinct edge in one element of set pieces.

england dont need lessons in how to beat wales fly i think you will find.

wales were rubbish and lucky most of last 6N. they were awesome against england. not complicated to understand

No.... Quins, that won't work.  Wales were in awesome mood many times and still never got round to beating SH...because of SH strategy (your opinion, not mine).  
You say everyone knows it, why didn't England use it?  Simple question.  

Ireland didn't just beat them this year with Plan A, they beat them last year with Plan Kidney (which wasn't much of a plan at all) in one half.

england last year were shocked to find themselves having won 4 from 4 and were completely unprepared for that wales decider. was an inexperienced team, and inexperienced coach. whatever plan england had tried, on that day wales would have won. if you lost the contact area you are toast against gatball, no matter what plan you have. would have been the same for ireland fly.

Scrumpy wrote:SL is using this 6 Nations to try players out.

Doesn't matter if we lose in the short term as long as we strengthen the squad for next year.

Ireland and Wales need to do the same otherwise they are going to have some big holes to fill in a RWC year.

We're two and a half years in to his reign...i really wish he wasnt using this 6n to try out players. That really should have been done already with impressive youngsters being introduced as and when they come on the scene....

It does matter if we lose in the short run...we should be looking to win every game Scrumpy.

At least the Irish aren't saying their players are World Class everytime they have a good game, unlike   , but the hyping could bite them on the behind if things go jubblies up at HQ.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:SL is using this 6 Nations to try players out.

Doesn't matter if we lose in the short term as long as we strengthen the squad for next year.

Ireland and Wales need to do the same otherwise they are going to have some big holes to fill in a RWC year.

We're two and a half years in to his reign...i really wish he wasnt using this 6n to try out players. That really should have been done already with impressive youngsters being introduced as and when they come on the scene....

It does matter if we lose in the short run...we should be looking to win every game Scrumpy.

I'm basing it on the fact that no one goes into a game wanting to lose, but at this level it can and will happen.

quinsforever wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

quinsforever wrote:
wales played much better at MS, to win the 6N last year than last saturday. and the old scrum rules had some fairly bizarre interpretations that gave wales a distinct edge in one element of set pieces.

england dont need lessons in how to beat wales fly i think you will find.

wales were rubbish and lucky most of last 6N. they were awesome against england. not complicated to understand

No.... Quins, that won't work.  Wales were in awesome mood many times and still never got round to beating SH...because of SH strategy (your opinion, not mine).  
You say everyone knows it, why didn't England use it?  Simple question.  

Ireland didn't just beat them this year with Plan A, they beat them last year with Plan Kidney (which wasn't much of a plan at all) in one half.

england last year were shocked to find themselves having won 4 from 4 and were completely unprepared for that wales decider. was an inexperienced team, and inexperienced coach. whatever plan england had tried, on that day wales would have won. if you lost the contact area you are toast against gatball, no matter what plan you have. would have been the same for ireland fly.

Struggled in the scrum, struggled with players out of position being taken advantage of (Wood and Brown). Generally a bad bad day.

quinsforever wrote:

Notch wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

quinsforever wrote:
i think you're giving him too much credit there notch. he only needed one strategy as gatland only has plan A. and the irish strategy was effective, and very simple, and the welsh were not good enough.

it was a very NZ/SA strategy - high, accurate kick-chase, aggressive rucking, kick for position, and win/turn over key lineouts. there is no conincidence that this is why Wales always lose to SH teams.

Why didn't England try it last year?  If it's so simple, and everybody knows it's the way to beat Wales, why hasn't it been done by England?  It might be done now...but it'll be because they'll have looked at the Irish tactics.  "If the Irish can beat them, so can we"    Pay us later if you win with the method.

Sorry- it's not really so much that I'm giving him credit, more that thats what Sexton has said about how we prepared for Wales and it fits in with how his teams always approach games.

fair enough, hadnt seen sextons comments. as it turned out though, only response-plan-A was needed as wales failed to respond. maybe having the plans for other scenarios gave confidence. is always good to know the coach has ideas for how to adapt.

Yeah, Wales kind of... well, I respect Wales but that was an easy game as it was a very straightforward strategy required to beat them and they made no effort to adapt. They played to our strengths. Twickenham will not be so easy.

quinsforever wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

quinsforever wrote:
wales played much better at MS, to win the 6N last year than last saturday. and the old scrum rules had some fairly bizarre interpretations that gave wales a distinct edge in one element of set pieces.

england dont need lessons in how to beat wales fly i think you will find.

wales were rubbish and lucky most of last 6N. they were awesome against england. not complicated to understand

No.... Quins, that won't work.  Wales were in awesome mood many times and still never got round to beating SH...because of SH strategy (your opinion, not mine).  
You say everyone knows it, why didn't England use it?  Simple question.  

Ireland didn't just beat them this year with Plan A, they beat them last year with Plan Kidney (which wasn't much of a plan at all) in one half.

england last year were shocked to find themselves having won 4 from 4 and were completely unprepared for that wales decider. was an inexperienced team, and inexperienced coach. whatever plan england had tried, on that day wales would have won. if you lost the contact area you are toast against gatball, no matter what plan you have. would have been the same for ireland fly.

Well here we are then.  England v Ireland.  

Lancaster a settled in International coach at this point, Schmidt an Inexperienced one.  England will rightfully be favourites.  England are a fast and confident side.  England have an engine that seems to last way beyond the required 80 minutes (impressive - said so on quite a few threads without prompting over the last few weeks)  Pace and England have been impressive, because it is sustained!  They have a real devil of a scrum half in Care.  I think personally the central cog of the engine.  Oh yep, I've praised England enough on these threads over the two weeks.

Wasn't impressed with Ireland's Scotland game at all.  Although many of my countrymen seemed to see enough to please them.  Nope, I was cold and worried.  Wales was a much more brutal and involved effort from the players and I was happy to see the grim reaper on display - hadn't seen it in a while in 6N.  That Irish determination not just to win but to kill off - ruthlessness to the end.  So that aspect rather than any gameplan is what pleased me most - Irish minds on the game for 80 minutes.

So we'll see what happens when these two relatively confident sides - with relative success so far and relatively content and happy fans - meet.  All we can really do is wait.

England are a fast and confident side.  England have an engine that seems to last way beyond the required 80 minutes (impressive - said so on quite a few threads without prompting over the last few weeks)  Pace and England have been impressive, because it is sustained!

Secret Fly

Yes maybe they are the above...however for all that they are also worryingly inefficient at taking advantage of their territorial and forward power...ie SCORING TRIES.

Also Farrell has a worrying regularity of missing kicks for England...something he needs to shake off quickly aswell.

This time last year Farrell couldnt miss. Thats one of the reasons they beat Ireland in Dublin. He got all his kicks and Sexton missed a few.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:SL is using this 6 Nations to try players out.

Doesn't matter if we lose in the short term as long as we strengthen the squad for next year.

Ireland and Wales need to do the same otherwise they are going to have some big holes to fill in a RWC year.

We're two and a half years in to his reign...i really wish he wasnt using this 6n to try out players. That really should have been done already with impressive youngsters being introduced as and when they come on the scene....

It does matter if we lose in the short run...we should be looking to win every game Scrumpy.

The academy system seems to be playing big dividends but we will be arguing about when players are ready forever.