Team Changes for Ireland

First topic message reminder :

So does anyone think Joe is going to make any changes to the starting 15 for Ireland v England?

Personally I think our backline have show no creativity and except for individual cameos from various players has been at best stodgy. In the original squad I and others voiced concerns over leaving Zebo and others out. However I think now that given the way the team has won its first two games and all players have done well Joe cannot change the starting 15 as it would give a wrong message players....so steady as she goes Joe or do we try to play like the harlem globetrotters....

And lets not ignore boring Dave's contribution fly - he might not be as flash as grand master zebo but it was the tortoise who out foxed the hare ...

rodders wrote:And lets not ignore boring Dave's contribution fly - he might not be as flash as grand master zebo but it was the tortoise who out foxed the hare ...

He's much more than that, Rodders ...... much more..... much much more....

now where's that dark menacing evil smile emoticon????? Too few emoticons 606 people!!!!! My emotions are many and varied, they need more tools than the small selection below!!! Get it fixed!

Kicking the ball to Brown will be as much use to us as kicking the ball to Kearney would be for them. No use. Kicks straight down the field would be a waste of time for both teams. So what about kicking for touch?

The lineout is a strength for England. We'll be concerned by their power in the tight and how to live with it. They'll have noticed the best bit of mauling seen in a test for a long time. They simply have to work on stopping that now, but will also know Schmidt's Leinster unleashed an incredible array of set plays off the lineout too over the years. Both sides will be wary of each others lineout.

England will want scrums. If they get a sniff there the crowd will be lifted, England will be lifted and they'll try to pummel us there. They'll try to pummel us in open play too. We have to deal with that first up.

If we do, and if it's dry, I'm telling ye now lads it'll be running rugby from Ireland. It makes no sense to try and win a purely forward battle of attrition with them.

Love him or hate he is a try machine! And his all round play was good with some huge kicks and 2 turnovers. He then moved to full back with 15 mins to go. Not much more he can do really to get a call up.

No Dan Cole for England which will be as much a handicap at ruck time as it will be at scrum time. Can't see any changes to the starting team. Maybe one of McCarthy or Ryan to bench. Sadly the ulster boys needed gametime to press the issue and didn't get it. I would expect only 1 change in the 23

I think we need to spruce up our backline a bit for this game if we are to win.

Workman like players are good but I don't think kicking is going to get us much joy against the team with the best lineout and counterattack that we have faced so far.

I would be very tempted to drop Trimble out of the 23, not because he played poorly but because I don't think he is the best type of player for the things England will throw at him. He is great, and is showing himself to be better than many thought but I don't he is the player best suited.

That being said, I don't think Zebo is either. I think McFadden should start at right wing, to bring in some pace but also some injection in midfield (something neither winger has been good at so far). I would put Zebo on the bench because if we are chasing the game towards the end (I think we more than likely will be) Zebo would be the lad who can come on and make something happen.

Hoping Henderson gets the bench spot over McCarthy or Ryan.

Also hoping Marshall is in for Darcy as we need to go wider against England than we have against Scotland or Wales. Marshall has more of a kicking game and more of a distribution game too. On top of that he is agile and strong enough to deal with the many big fellas that are gonna be coming down his way.

I would also have Reddan and Madigan on the bench for the same reason that I would have Zebo, so that if we need to chase the game we can put lads on who will add pace and add width. There are few guys in Ireland who can add so much pace and game breaking ability.

Healy-Best-Ross
Toner-POC
POM-Heaslip-Henry
Murray-Sexton
Marshall-BOD
K2-K1-McFadden

Cronin-McGrath-Moore-Henderson-TOD-Reddan-Madigan-Zebo

Trimble was in the team of the week for the last set of matches.

No way he will be droped.

pete wrote:I think McFadden should start at right wing, to bring in some pace but also some injection in midfield (something neither winger has been good at so far).

Is McFadden quicker than Trimble?

Trimble can provide injection into the midfield he does it all the time for Ulster.
If he is not doing it from Ireland it is because he is being instructed to stay out wide

san wrote:

pete wrote:I think McFadden should start at right wing, to bring in some pace but also some injection in midfield (something neither winger has been good at so far).

Is McFadden quicker than Trimble?

Zebo is quicker than both of them, has a better boot on him and can play full back.

Schmidt will have his prefered (kind of) players for prefered tactics.  None of that is close to being sorted yet.... quite a while to go before he is able to merge specifics of gameplans together seamlessly...but I fully believe it's what he'll be working on both now in this 6N and out into the Summer.

Anyway, he's said it himself, it's a tough one to allow 'rotation' to a team that is currently well balanced and playing well with expectations of fans growing that something actually shiny might be the result of this 6n.

But he is also balancing that very real and understandable attitude with the almost as important incentive approach to reward efforts from bench alternatives, from players who might be doing some nice stuff in training or from players back at their own Provinces.

We're reasonably content with what we've seen so far...how can any of us be clear and content that a few changes in personel wouldn't even advance the cause of Ireland down an even more potent road against England?

We can't.  So over to you Schmidt. Let him decide - he's getting paid to fret

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/donnacha-ryan-returns-to-ireland-squad-1.1694611

No Zebo in the squad so no changes are gonna happen boys save for perhaps Ryan getting the bench spot over Henderson.

mrsuperclear wrote:http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/donnacha-ryan-returns-to-ireland-squad-1.1694611

No Zebo in the squad so no changes are gonna happen boys save for perhaps Ryan getting the bench spot over Henderson.

Yeah I think that may be right. I'd be happy with that side - no need for changes and I've said before I think the basis for the game plan was in the other 2 games.

I think we may look to speed the game up later on with Reddan/Boss and McFadden coming on but we'll see a lot high balls in the first half.

The maul is the interesting one, I think we will see it used again a lot even though its an area of strength for England too. I think we'll really be trying to tire out their pack in the first 50-60mina and then look for a bit more pace and width.

rodders wrote:

mrsuperclear wrote:http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/donnacha-ryan-returns-to-ireland-squad-1.1694611

No Zebo in the squad so no changes are gonna happen boys save for perhaps Ryan getting the bench spot over Henderson.

Yeah I think that may be right. I'd be happy with that side - no need for changes and I've said before I think the basis for the game plan was in the other 2 games.

I think we may look to speed the game up later on with Reddan/Boss and McFadden coming on but we'll see a lot high balls in the first half.

The maul is the interesting one, I think we will see it used again a lot even though its an area of strength for England too. I think we'll really be trying to tire out their pack in the first 50-60mina and then look for a bit more pace and width.

I think the really interesting one is the scrum now. For a long time I think Healy, Best & Ross would have been reminded of the last time they visited twickenham and now, with Cole out, this is their opportunity to right the wrong if you like. Not that I think it's a given at all, but they won't be settling for parity in the scrum now.

I agree with you on the lack of need for changes. The ones close to getting in (Fitz, Zebo, Gilroy, Bowe) would have had to both prove their fitness and play out of their skins. You could argue Zebo did (was against Zebre, but could only do what was in front of him) and that still wasn't enough. I think there will definitely be changes for Italy regardless of the result Saturday though.

Tiring out an England pack?...........

It'll be a first for Ireland in quite a while. My champagne is ready and on ice!

Well the difference fly is we have a bench now so rather than falling away late on we can look to speed things up. That's a big difference, especially in the tight 5.

Not sure what England's bench will be - Cole is a big loss.

He is...but like I said on another post,  this Ireland must not get cocky.  Play to the gameplan that will have been created for a team with Cole on it.  Don't go into the contest naturally assuming they are going to start pushing the English scrum this way and that.  Go with the intention of trying to yes, but not with the attitude that it's now a foregone conclusion.  Cockiness could kill us off - keep dedicated to the systems.

BlueMuff wrote:

san wrote:

pete wrote:I think McFadden should start at right wing, to bring in some pace but also some injection in midfield (something neither winger has been good at so far).

Is McFadden quicker than Trimble?

Zebo is quicker than both of them, has a better boot on him and can play full back.

He also apparently goes clubbing four nights a week and has his own stupid try celebration. He's basically our version of Gavin Henson/Chris Ashton with the stepping feet of Simon Geoghegan.

BlueMuff wrote:

san wrote:

pete wrote:I think McFadden should start at right wing, to bring in some pace but also some injection in midfield (something neither winger has been good at so far).

Is McFadden quicker than Trimble?

Zebo is quicker than both of them, has a better boot on him and can play full back.

As expected Zebo does not make the squad so that one can be put to bed

He also has a flashy car with big speakers!!!  Or so we were informed by a commentator during the weekend Munster game.

Gavin Henson?  Nah.  Ashton?  Nope.

Jamie Heaslip????  A perfect match!

ME will be delighted Zebo has chosen his role-model.  Now the trousers must decend 3.6 inches Simon.

geoff998rugby wrote:

BlueMuff wrote:

san wrote:

pete wrote:I think McFadden should start at right wing, to bring in some pace but also some injection in midfield (something neither winger has been good at so far).

Is McFadden quicker than Trimble?

Zebo is quicker than both of them, has a better boot on him and can play full back.

As expected Zebo does not make the squad so that one can be put to bed

Given some clues a few weeks ago............................ I'm beginning to think there is a battle of wills going on between Zebo and...someone else!  

For one of his tries at the weekend, I felt he took more out of it than was required; and against a better side he might well have found himself held up.  But I think it was so.... it was quite pointed and perhaps a dare.  So far the dare game isn't working though, if a dare game it be.

Notch wrote:

BlueMuff wrote:

san wrote:

pete wrote:I think McFadden should start at right wing, to bring in some pace but also some injection in midfield (something neither winger has been good at so far).

Is McFadden quicker than Trimble?

Zebo is quicker than both of them, has a better boot on him and can play full back.

He also apparently goes clubbing four nights a week and has his own stupid try celebration. He's basically our version of Gavin Henson/Chris Ashton with the stepping feet of Simon Geoghegan.

Yea and has gambling addiction, 6 different women a week and hates kids....

Dont believe everything you read on FB / newspapers. In fact why not check out this link.

http://balls.ie/rugby/simon-zebo-and-a-young-fan/

And then think maybe he is actually a breath of fresh air to the game. And most importantly 22 tries in 50 odd appearances for Munster - he does his talking on the pitch.

He is basically everything Munster hate

Flash, not humble.
Stylish, not a farmer.
An individual, not a team player.
A back, not a forward.
Mentioned more in the gossip pages than in the sports pages.

All he needs is a more famous celebrity girlfriend (he has several not so famous ones already) and to endorse his own line of headphones and he'll essentially be the platonic idea of what a Leinster player should be!

  

 

BlueMuff wrote:
Yea and has gambling addiction, 6 different women a week and hates kids....

.

And they are his good points.

Notch wrote:He also apparently goes clubbing four nights a week and has his own stupid try celebration.

Hey don't we all?   

Serious case of double standards when it comes to Zebo. He's a quality player and he's got bags of talent but if he's not getting picked then it's for a good reason, if he was told to go and play for Munster he would have been given "work ons" and if he didn't work on them, he won't get back into the squad. We don't know what they were but obviously he didn't do what he needed to make the squad so he'll have to bide his time.

As for him being a flash Dan, man about town, that's no problem as long as he does his talking on the pitch. Now Jamie Heaslip is a pr 1ck because he... well he doesn't do HIS talking on the.... ok maybe he does, but... he's a... he's just a...

geoff998rugby wrote: 

BlueMuff wrote:
Yea and has gambling addiction, 6 different women a week and hates kids....

.

And they are his good points.  

"So, Simon, where did it all go wrong for you?"   

I wouldn't be disappointed if he was to start against Italy or France. I just think it's gratifying to see the honesty and passion of the two lads we have on the wing being rewarded. They are real term players. Sure, they might not be as talented as Zebo but my references to nebulous character traits shared by many top players are more than convincing arguments for their conclusion. You wouldn't catch them doing a swan dive, or going out clubbing or scoring tries or anything flashy and gimmicky like that.

G'wan Trimble- 'tis your field!

Notch wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote: 

BlueMuff wrote:
Yea and has gambling addiction, 6 different women a week and hates kids....

.

And they are his good points.  

"So, Simon, where did it all go wrong for you?"   

I wouldn't be disappointed if he was to start against Italy or France. I just think it's gratifying to see the honesty and passion of the two lads we have on the wing being rewarded. They are real term players. Sure, they might not be as talented as Zebo but my references to nebulous character traits shared by many top players are more than convincing arguments for their conclusion. You wouldn't catch them doing a swan dive, or going out clubbing or scoring tries or anything flashy and gimmicky like that.

G'wan Trimble- 'tis your field!

  Brilliant

One day not too soon down the line he'll realise the message he is being given is an honest one.  Pull up your socks or you're not getting in.

This is a joke now, BTW.  But if this becomes a running issue (flash Harry doing the bizz and still not getting picked) I can see it developing into Schmidt's first run-in with the Inter Galactic Provincial Wars - and he'll be asked bluntly why Zebo ain't getting a shot.

The real fun will hit off when Schmidt tells the questioner (and us) bluntly why.

Divided Ireland camp again.  Ireland fail to make it out of their WC group.  Brian Ashton invited back to coach Ireland one more time.

I think Trimble and Kearney are easily as talented - that's just a sloppy interpretation of the word talent.

I remember seeing Trimble at Coleraine inst and then later breaking through at Ulster/Ireland in his early 20's and he certainly doesn't lack talent, neither does Kearney.

Talent is a given at this level, its attitude and mental strength that separates players...Zebo is not on the level of some of the other players in this respect hence he's been left out.

rodders wrote:I think Trimble and Kearney are easily as talented - that's just a sloppy interpretation of the word talent.

I remember seeing Trimble at Coleraine inst and then later breaking through at Ulster/Ireland in his early 20's and he certainly doesn't lack talent, neither does Kearney.

Talent is a given at this level, its attitude and mental strength that separates players...Zebo is not on the level of some of the other players in this respect hence he's been left out.    

If he lacks mental strenght and attitude - then how do you account for the number of tries he scores, the tackles he makes, the ability to sprint faster than probably most in the rabo and HC, his kicking ability.

Ah look at the end of the day he has probably has made things hard from himself but he has a personality, enjoys life Jockeying I mean DJing but I firmly believe he is the best winger Ireland have.

BlueMuff wrote:If he lacks mental strenght and attitude - then how do you account for the number of tries he scores, the tackles he makes, the ability to sprint faster than probably most in the rabo and HC, his kicking ability.

Luck?

He's an extra-ingredient that Ireland can't be fussy about under-using, for sure.  But he too has to recognise what is being asked of him.  I'm sure, in the background, it's been said as directly as you can say something to another person who speaks English.  So whatever that something is, and I'm sure many of us have our guesses, he must play his part, adapt to the new coaching climate and allow himself to be picked.

I think the competition on the wings is very strong so if you are out, chances are you probably need to bide your time until there's an injury.

I've nothing against Zebo at all, I think he's a really exciting player but I think the 2 guys starting are there on merit. Everyone else, including Bowe, can wait for their chance.

Trimble was maybe the best player in the country in any position last season but couldn't even make the squad.

BlueMuff wrote:

rodders wrote:I think Trimble and Kearney are easily as talented - that's just a sloppy interpretation of the word talent.

I remember seeing Trimble at Coleraine inst and then later breaking through at Ulster/Ireland in his early 20's and he certainly doesn't lack talent, neither does Kearney.

Talent is a given at this level, its attitude and mental strength that separates players...Zebo is not on the level of some of the other players in this respect hence he's been left out.    

If he lacks mental strenght and attitude - then how do you account for the number of tries he scores, the tackles he makes, the ability to sprint faster than probably most in the rabo and HC, his kicking ability.

Ah look at the end of the day he has probably has made things hard from himself but he has a personality, enjoys life Jockeying I mean DJing but I firmly believe he is the best winger Ireland have.

I have no doubt whatsoever that having a personality and enjoying being a DJ has NOTHING to do with him being left out of the squad. Nothing whatsoever. DJ Church anyone?

Spoiler:

Notch wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote: 

BlueMuff wrote:
Yea and has gambling addiction, 6 different women a week and hates kids....

.

And they are his good points.  

"So, Simon, where did it all go wrong for you?"   

I wouldn't be disappointed if he was to start against Italy or France. I just think it's gratifying to see the honesty and passion of the two lads we have on the wing being rewarded. They are real term players. Sure, they might not be as talented as Zebo but my references to nebulous character traits shared by many top players are more than convincing arguments for their conclusion. You wouldn't catch them doing a swan dive, or going out clubbing or scoring tries or anything flashy and gimmicky like that.

G'wan Trimble- 'tis your field!

According to his club coach (Penney, also a kiwi), the Kiwi's have a problem with the 'Tall Poppy Syndrome' - they like to chop them down.

I think it is downright wrong of you to cast aspersions on Zebo's character, considering you know nothing about him. From what I can see he is very popular with his team mates and probably one of the first names on the team sheet for Munster.

Hopefully Schmidt won't destroys his confidence like he did with Carlos Spencer.

By the way, Trimble would remain on the right wing - Zebo has a left boot which is why he is always played on that wing - even Penney moved Keith Earls to the other side to accommodate him on the left.

Mickado wrote:

BlueMuff wrote:

rodders wrote:I think Trimble and Kearney are easily as talented - that's just a sloppy interpretation of the word talent.

I remember seeing Trimble at Coleraine inst and then later breaking through at Ulster/Ireland in his early 20's and he certainly doesn't lack talent, neither does Kearney.

Talent is a given at this level, its attitude and mental strength that separates players...Zebo is not on the level of some of the other players in this respect hence he's been left out.    

If he lacks mental strenght and attitude - then how do you account for the number of tries he scores, the tackles he makes, the ability to sprint faster than probably most in the rabo and HC, his kicking ability.

Ah look at the end of the day he has probably has made things hard from himself but he has a personality, enjoys life Jockeying I mean DJing but I firmly believe he is the best winger Ireland have.

I have no doubt whatsoever that having a personality and enjoying being a DJ has NOTHING to do with him being left out of the squad. Nothing whatsoever. DJ Church anyone?

Spoiler:

Pre-Schmidt, surely?

rodders wrote:I think the competition on the wings is very strong so if you are out, chances are you probably need to bide your time until there's an injury.

I've nothing against Zebo at all, I think he's a really exciting player but I think the 2 guys starting are there on merit. Everyone else, including Bowe, can wait for their chance.

Trimble was maybe the best player in the country in any position last season but couldn't even make the squad.  

We're not talking about starting places, we are talking about making 33 man squads. Zebo is capable of that.

Andrew Trimble has improved his game no end over the last 2-3 years. He can kick occasionally now and doesn't have to pass to someone else to do it for him and is very decent under a high ball.

rodders wrote:I think the competition on the wings is very strong so if you are out, chances are you probably need to bide your time until there's an injury.

I've nothing against Zebo at all, I think he's a really exciting player but I think the 2 guys starting are there on merit. Everyone else, including Bowe, can wait for their chance.

Trimble was maybe the best player in the country in any position last season but couldn't even make the squad.  

We're not talking about starting places, we are talking about making 33 man squads. Zebo is capable of that.

Andrew Trimble has improved his game no end over the last 2-3 years. He can kick occasionally now and doesn't have to pass to someone else to do it for him and is very decent under a high ball.

It's got nothing to do with his personality outside the ring... (nobody's business but his) Everyone knows that. It probably has something to do with acclimatising to the system within the ring.

Sin é wrote:

Mickado wrote:

BlueMuff wrote:

rodders wrote:I think Trimble and Kearney are easily as talented - that's just a sloppy interpretation of the word talent.

I remember seeing Trimble at Coleraine inst and then later breaking through at Ulster/Ireland in his early 20's and he certainly doesn't lack talent, neither does Kearney.

Talent is a given at this level, its attitude and mental strength that separates players...Zebo is not on the level of some of the other players in this respect hence he's been left out.    

If he lacks mental strenght and attitude - then how do you account for the number of tries he scores, the tackles he makes, the ability to sprint faster than probably most in the rabo and HC, his kicking ability.

Ah look at the end of the day he has probably has made things hard from himself but he has a personality, enjoys life Jockeying I mean DJing but I firmly believe he is the best winger Ireland have.

I have no doubt whatsoever that having a personality and enjoying being a DJ has NOTHING to do with him being left out of the squad. Nothing whatsoever. DJ Church anyone?

Spoiler:

Pre-Schmidt, surely?

Cian Healy gave up DJing a few years ago because it was taking up too much time.

Sin é wrote:
By the way, Trimble would remain on the right wing - Zebo has a left boot which is why he is always played on that wing

Trimble has 2 left feet so maybe that's what got him the nod.

And Bowe has two left hands, which explains the finger-touch madness he often goes through when catching his.............em..............balls

Before hanging Zebo out to dry, this is what Penney had to say about him:

Zeebs is in a great space. He is a fantastic bloke and needs to be embraced for what he is.

“He’s not your quintessential rugby man, and you’d never want him to be. Zeebs is loving the football, and that’s all you ask of your players. No matter what jersey they put on, as long as they’re loving what they do, they’re going to get a performance, and if they get selected for the next team up, whatever that may be, on the back of loving the game and doing the right thing and the jerseys on the way up, that’s all you can ever ask.

“So for Zeebs, he understands that. He just loves being out on the footy field, he loves being at Thomond Park in front of the Munster crowd.

“They embrace him for who he is. He’s in good space, and there’s some challenges for him to get back in the Irish team, and he knows that. And the only thing he can do is perform outstandingly. He’s coming off a long injury that could potentially be very niggly. He’s done the right thing rehab wise, got himself in really good shape physically, returned at a time when the foot shouldn’t be an issue for him and now he’s just got to be consistent on and off the field to prove to other people that he’s ready to be an international footballer.”

The intimation from Penney is his larger than life personality, exemplified by his showy try celebrations, the latest of which came ins Saturday’s victory over Cardiff Blues, was in some way being seen as a negative.

“I think individuals should be allowed to express themselves. I’ve always said that and I think as soon as you start curbing an instinct that’s very pleasurable then you take away something special about the individual. I’d just hate to see that happen.

“We call it the tall poppy syndrome in New Zealand, where if someone sticks their head up they get it chopped off and I just think it’s so wrong for young men, it’s a tough enough life as it is, so if you’ve got someone out there embracing life and showing what life’s really about, for living, and Zeebs is doing what he does on the field then that should be embraced. I hate people being criticised for that sort of thing.

“If he’s getting advice,” Penney added, “that he should restrict that and it would enhance his international selection then he should heed that advice, but that’s up to him and the person who’s giving him that advice.”

I disagree with Penny. In rugby if you draw too much attention to yourself you might as well paint a target on yourself. Over exuberant celebrations and such nonsense will eventually catch up on you. Zebo is of course a good player but if he put as much energy into improving his game as he does into being a messer he would fairly soon be a great player.

...Nobody liked it when Heaslip used to do his ridiculous finger wagging pre celebrations.

Penney knows the score.  He's said just about all that needs to be said about all aspects.

The future is up to him (Zebo) and the person giving him advice.

We don't know what he's being asked to work on. Penney doesn't know either, "if he's getting advice...that he should restrict that" doesn't mean that he has been told to stop it.

Nothing wrong with a young fella enjoying himself, but he needs to do whatever he needs to do... and we're just pishing in the wind trying to guess what that is.

Interesting last comment - seems to confirm that something was said to him.

As long as a player is delivering on the field there's no problem provided it doesn't cause friction with the other players.

I don't think that Zebo is playing so well to presume that he's been left out for anything other than rugby reasons i.e. other players deemed able to do the job as well or better just now.

He's a very good player but so are his rivals.

Sin é wrote:I think it is downright wrong of you to cast aspersions on Zebo's character, considering you know nothing about him. From what I can see he is very popular with his team mates and probably one of the first names on the team sheet for Munster.

To be honest Sin, I was doing a bit. I was impersonating various Munster fans who have posted on here over the years including yourself. I had appropriated the arguing style of the Brave and Faithful to make a wider point. It's good to see the irony detector is in full working order!

I would have been happy to see Zebo in the squad, albeit I wouldn't pick him for Twickenham. I would absolutely pick him on the left wing for the game against Italy because we need to stretch our points difference, but in the mean time he's better off getting game time at Munster and not holding tackle bags.