Team Changes for Ireland

First topic message reminder :

So does anyone think Joe is going to make any changes to the starting 15 for Ireland v England?

Personally I think our backline have show no creativity and except for individual cameos from various players has been at best stodgy. In the original squad I and others voiced concerns over leaving Zebo and others out. However I think now that given the way the team has won its first two games and all players have done well Joe cannot change the starting 15 as it would give a wrong message players....so steady as she goes Joe or do we try to play like the harlem globetrotters....

Notch wrote:

Sin é wrote:I think it is downright wrong of you to cast aspersions on Zebo's character, considering you know nothing about him. From what I can see he is very popular with his team mates and probably one of the first names on the team sheet for Munster.

To be honest Sin, I was doing a bit. I was impersonating various Munster fans who have posted on here over the years including yourself. I had appropriated the arguing style of the Brave and Faithful to make a wider point. It's good to see the irony detector is in full working order!

I would have been happy to see Zebo in the squad, albeit I wouldn't pick him for Twickenham. I would absolutely pick him on the left wing for the game against Italy because we need to stretch our points difference, but in the mean time he's better off getting game time at Munster and not holding tackle bags.

When have I cast aspersions on anyone's character that I consider it appropriate that they don't make a training squad?

Have a great day Sin.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQ9kKBz2uzo

Part 2 of a Zebo tribute. The boy has talent.

Note he didn't celebrate the Welsh try he scored from BOD's pass. He ran it around behind the posts.

Not one swan dive in that compilation and pretty much all his celebrations are with his team mates.

Notch wrote:Have a great day Sin.

#SUAF   

Geoff-

I think Trimble was class against Wales (not that much better than K2 I'd argue but class none the less). The point I am making is I believe McFadden would be a better bet than Trimble for this particular game. I would like to add that I think a player like Zebo would be best against Italy and then probably Trimble again against France.

Also is Zebo really the fastest wing in ireland???
Damn quick but so is Earls for sure. Kearney is outrageously fast and is given credit for it.

I watched a BaaBaa's game before the RWC I think it was in thomond and Kearney was on the left wing near the BaaBaa's line but there was an intercept on the right hand side of the pitch. Kearney somehow managed to make it back to make the covering tackle. It was on a Fijian outside centre, possibly Rabeini maybe???

[quote="pete (buachaill on eirne)"]Geoff-

Also is Zebo really the fastest wing in ireland???
quote]

Yes

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:
Also is Zebo really the fastest wing in ireland???
Damn quick but so is Earls for sure. Kearney is outrageously fast and is given credit for it.

Heard recently that Paul Marshall has the fastest sprint times in Ireland and is top in a lot fitness tests too...anyone else shed light on this? Hookie?

BlueMuff wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Geoff-

Also is Zebo really the fastest wing in ireland???

Yes

Have you a source on that?

As far as I remember he was an International standard 100m sprinter. He probably has slowed up since turning rugby pro but Id put money he has the fastest recorded 100m of any of the current players.

Other than that we will have to get Joe to have a good old fashioned race to prove anything   

I know Rob Kearney was up at that level for 200m sprints.
So your answer of "yes" BlueMuff isn't particularly useful.

Fionn Carr is also damn fast. Gilroy probably isn't as quick in terms of straight line speed but probably the most agile along with Fitz and Earls.

Earls is damn quick too.

McFadden is much faster than he looks too.

rodders wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:
Also is Zebo really the fastest wing in ireland???
Damn quick but so is Earls for sure. Kearney is outrageously fast and is given credit for it.

Heard recently that Paul Marshall has the fastest sprint times in Ireland and is top in a lot fitness tests too...anyone else shed light on this? Hookie?

You are correct there Rodders - in his early days played as a winger

100m is pretty irrelevant in rugby though isn't it? Not very often you see a player run in a try from that kind of distance (or generally just have to cover 100m in a straight line in one run).

When running away from someone or chasing someone down, acceleration over a short distance is far more important I'd say.

Paul Marshall has to be up there for acceleration doesn't he. He really can put the foot down

I was just saying to some of the lads that I've got myself a slight injury at the back of my right knee, pulling on my hamstring a bit, pretty tight now. But I haven't had to make too many sprints in the last 3/4 games. Granted I am a scrumhalf/flyhalf but even so I haven't had to really open out my legs and put the foot down.

Short bursts and changes of direction have been all that have been really required. Even on kick chase you are never flat out sprinting unless you are trying to be there when the ball has landed.

To be honest...most Irish players, even the speedsters, need top quality sprint coaching to more fully utilise any natural speed they have. I see far too many curved spines in operation as Irish players run. Very inefficient running styles for many.

Yawn.....

From a Guardian Article last year...

Zebo was clocked at 11.10 seconds for 100metres when in school and his times over 40 metres are the fastest that have been seen in the Irish team.

Problem with Zebo is he doesnt play rugby by numbers which is Joes way....

So he'll have to knuckle down to maths grinds after the sprint sessions then.

Notch wrote:

Sin é wrote:I think it is downright wrong of you to cast aspersions on Zebo's character, considering you know nothing about him. From what I can see he is very popular with his team mates and probably one of the first names on the team sheet for Munster.

To be honest Sin, I was doing a bit. I was impersonating various Munster fans who have posted on here over the years including yourself. I had appropriated the arguing style of the Brave and Faithful to make a wider point. It's good to see the irony detector is in full working order!

I would have been happy to see Zebo in the squad, albeit I wouldn't pick him for Twickenham. I would absolutely pick him on the left wing for the game against Italy because we need to stretch our points difference, but in the mean time he's better off getting game time at Munster and not holding tackle bags.

Yeah because we are just going to turn into the harlem globetrotters overnight!!! Have you even been watching Italy...

rodders wrote:
I don't think that Zebo is playing so well to presume that he's been left out for anything other than rugby reasons i.e. other players deemed able to do the job as well or better just now.

Felix Jones has been picked ahead of Zebo. So has McFadden who hasn't had a proper game in months. Considering Zebo's strong form of late there is no way he has been left out for pure "rugby reasons." Perhaps Schmidt has left him out for a valid non-rugby reason but that is pure speculation. I don't understand how everyone here bar the Munster fans are suddenly in agreement that Zebo's "off-field antics" warrant his exclusion from the squad.

As for on the pitch, nobody can say that his performances have been affected or that he is affecting his team. The try celebrations aren't really in the same league as Ashton for example, for a start they are after the try has been scored and secondly they are just a bit of fun, he is smiling and enjoying his rugby. I don't think he's trying to prove a point to anyone with them.
Do people honestly think his Munster team-mates are offended?
The comparisons with Henson or Cipriani are beyond ludicrous. Zebo continues to do his talking on the pitch.

I don't really buy the argument that his skillset doesn't fit Schmidt's gameplan either. For all his flair he is superb under the high ball and offers a better kicking option than any of the other wingers.

ME-109 wrote:Yawn.....

From a Guardian Article last year...

Zebo was clocked at 11.10 seconds for 100metres when in school and his times over 40 metres are the fastest that have been seen in the Irish team.

Problem with Zebo is he doesnt play rugby by numbers which is Joes way....

His try per second per metre ratio wouldn't be as good as the other Irish wingers than.

theslosty wrote:

rodders wrote:
I don't think that Zebo is playing so well to presume that he's been left out for anything other than rugby reasons i.e. other players deemed able to do the job as well or better just now.

Felix Jones has been picked ahead of Zebo. So has McFadden who hasn't had a proper game in months. Considering Zebo's strong form of late there is no way he has been left out for pure "rugby reasons." Perhaps Schmidt has left him out for a valid non-rugby reason but that is pure speculation. I don't understand how everyone here bar the Munster fans are suddenly in agreement that Zebo's "off-field antics" warrant his exclusion from the squad.

As for on the pitch, nobody can say that his performances have been affected or that he is affecting his team. The try celebrations aren't really in the same league as Ashton for example, for a start they are after the try has been scored and secondly they are just a bit of fun, he is smiling and enjoying his rugby. I don't think he's trying to prove a point to anyone with them.
Do people honestly think his Munster team-mates are offended?
The comparisons with Henson or Cipriani are beyond ludicrous. Zebo continues to do his talking on the pitch.

I don't really buy the argument that his skillset doesn't fit Schmidt's gameplan either. For all his flair he is superb under the high ball and offers a better kicking option than any of the other wingers.

That's a lot you don't buy, losty.  Miserable git!  But what do you think?  
Yes, it's all speculation of course but that hasn't stopped 606 before!  Why are we all so sensitive now? Are the Gardai Ombudsmen involved????  
I have my ideas and I have my ideas why it doesn't seem to be progressing.  Penny was probably the closest to it.  I see two (possibly three) personalities at work here - all headstrong.

theslosty wrote:

rodders wrote:
I don't think that Zebo is playing so well to presume that he's been left out for anything other than rugby reasons i.e. other players deemed able to do the job as well or better just now.

Felix Jones has been picked ahead of Zebo. So has McFadden who hasn't had a proper game in months. Considering Zebo's strong form of late there is no way he has been left out for pure "rugby reasons." Perhaps Schmidt has left him out for a valid non-rugby reason but that is pure speculation. I don't understand how everyone here bar the Munster fans are suddenly in agreement that Zebo's "off-field antics" warrant his exclusion from the squad.

As for on the pitch, nobody can say that his performances have been affected or that he is affecting his team. The try celebrations aren't really in the same league as Ashton for example, for a start they are after the try has been scored and secondly they are just a bit of fun, he is smiling and enjoying his rugby. I don't think he's trying to prove a point to anyone with them.
Do people honestly think his Munster team-mates are offended?
The comparisons with Henson or Cipriani are beyond ludicrous. Zebo continues to do his talking on the pitch.

I don't really buy the argument that his skillset doesn't fit Schmidt's gameplan either. For all his flair he is superb under the high ball and offers a better kicking option than any of the other wingers.

The crowd love him in Munster and believe me the crowd in Cork or Limerick arent slow in letting players know if they dont like them or they are doing something stupid.

He plays for Munster and scores tries ME.

That's probably a hint for all the lurve goin' his way

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:I'm not sure Zebo will come back into the squad.  He missed out due to his attitude during the North American tour.  That is categorical fact.  Maybe Schmidt will feel he has made his point but apparently he is utterly ruthless when it comes to selection and may want to make Zebo sweat.  Personally I understand why Zebo was less than full-throated when he knew he was about to be selected for the Lions, but obviously the new setup are making an example of him.  It'll be interesting to see if there is much movement in the squad before the England match.  

Zebo' attitude annoyed me too back then..... but is this fact that he is being punished for America?  If so Hook, could you point me to the source?

Ah now, I'm not saying I agree with Schmidt.  If I was in Zebo' position on a reserve tour playing 3rd division international teams when I could be going on a Lions tour.....?  Hard to think many players wouldn't say the same.  

But yes, apparently this is absolute genuine truth.  I'm honestly not on the wind up, as much as I do enjoy a bit of that.  But I can't say who told me because a) it was in confidence; b) its ill mannered; and c) he'll tell me bugger all again and I get some proper juicy gossip from time to time.  DOD can believe whatever he wishes on this, I don't really care and don't need to justify it.  For the record, I'd have had him in the squad from the start, and in the starting XV.  

Maybe not. Zebo has bad form. He needs to alter his behaviour before he turns into another Gav. Never mind an Irish International of the future.  Don't you think Schmidt is aware of this?

Zebo has not been excluded for lack of ability or fitness. He is being left to sweat and grow. Grow into men like D. Kearney and Trimble.  I hope it happens. Fitz had to do a bit of it a while back. Got his hid up his orse and lost his way.

Btw, I dont need to post a link. I have spoken. It just  is.

Oh jebus the duke of hamsterjam has spoken....it must be true...

Thanks Decco. Love you.

You tell me man. Hes our most talented winger after Fitz.  He's in form. He's fit. Individually brilliant. Good enough to win us the game in a flash. And hes gaggin for it.

He doesn't even make the 33, when a plodder like Faddser does. What's your take on it bro?

Seriously.

In all fairness we have lots of good wingers ahead of Zebo. McFadden, Fitz, Earls, Bowe, Trimble, Gilroy and DK. Maybe he just isn't good enough?

Oh God........not back to POM!

Well I hope there isn't a permanent falling out between Schmidt and Zebo. He should be starting in my opinion. Especially with Bowe, Earls and Fitzgerald out. We need some more spark in the back three, because our centres are not the most creative these days.

SecretFly wrote:Oh God........not back to POM!

He isn't a winger anymore.

Form is everything as is fitting a pattern the coach wants.

We can argue all day but Ireland have 8 wingers who do not look out of place
Bowe, Gilroy, Trimble at Ulster
Fitzgerald, McFadden, Kearney at Leinster
Zebo and Earls at Munster

How the coach decides regarding the two points is more than enough to swing the balance between any two of those players.
Just be thankful we have such a strong pool of players to call on

Injury aside Ireland should remain unchanged.

If Ryan came through the Munster game unscathed I think it will be him for Tuohy and that it.

Henderson not getting game time probably scuppered his chances.

We will see a few tweaks against Italy I reckon including Marshall for D'Arcy

Scratch wrote:Injury aside Ireland should remain unchanged.

Agree. Its a unit that's getting stronger by the game. So why fock with it?

Also, Schmidt has a lot of moves to come. Moves that have not yet been executed.  Its oozing from the players comments. I reckon they have been told to shut up. We haven't even hit 3rd gear yet under Schmidt.

People really urine me off when they go on about the lack of dynamism and creativity in the back 3? Are you focking serious lads?
K x 2 and Andy Trimble can run riot, given the licence to do so. They have not been given that remit yet. JS wanted the 1st two games in on a strict game plan.

He will let loose v a one-dimensional England. Minus Cole, they are bollixed now.

England will be man-shamed at HQ.

Mickado wrote:100m is pretty irrelevant in rugby thouh isn't it? Not very often you see a player run in a try from that kind of distance (or generally just have to cover 100m in a straight line in one run).

When running away from someone or chasing someone down, acceleration over a short distance is far more important I'd say.

I reckon you'd be saying right there Mick.

Standing start? On the run? What Muff?

I love Muff btw... Just sayin.

Geoghegan. 20 years ago. Remember lads? Too fast for England. Too fast for his own boots.Wot en fockin natural-born winger. Deadly.  Tremendjous
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZ_jvFHNbmU

Gibson wrote:Thanks Decco. Love you.

You tell me man. Hes our most talented winger after Fitz.  He's in form. He's fit. Individually brilliant. Good enough to win us the game in a flash. And hes gaggin for it.

He doesn't even make the 33, when a plodder like Faddser does. What's your take on it bro?

Seriously.

Seriously....no idea. I think JS by leaving Zebo out and including others in the 33 man squad has nailed his mast to the wall. Unfortunately his comments concerning match fitness originally dont ring true. Certainly there seems to be something concerning Zebos personality given Rob Penneys comments...maybe JS likes people who act like sober scottish presbyterians or something. His assistant principal background would certainly point to a clash with someone like Zebo.

The problem I feel here is that Joe has not given himself a let out and this is going to go down the lines of not picking or considering Zebo. Down the line I think it is something that will get him some stick. The current game plan is limited but very effective. I even would agree to not changing the team. Why should he its a winning team.

If we win at the weekend I wouldnt care a hoot who is in the team or if we win in Paris. If however we try the same type of gameplan and England win (or France) I think he has created a situation that he is going to find hard to work his way out of.

Zebo is a player who has shown from an early age that he has tonnes of ability and I think his performances recently and over the last year deserve better but hey rock on Joe...

Also its not the back three that lack creativity its the whole 3/4s at this stage.

Not sure England will be shamed as their pack will play rugby unlike Wales, but the irish backs are more mature and cohesive and it is BODs time…..Nowell and May will get peppered by Sexton. Big thin gin irish favor is schmidt.

http://www.independent.ie/videos/sport/irfu-press-conference-highlights-30017511.html

Here's the injury update. Isaac Boss has a concussion, but is recovering well but Eoin Reddan came through the weekend well so it might be a moot point. Bowe and Fitzgerald are close.

Leinster squad update saying that Luke and Strauss are in contention for Thursday's game against Cardiff. They were still in contention this time last week to play Dragons so it's not a done deal but at least they're not ruled out.

So the main topic of conversation is "Why no Zebo?"

I noticed Michael Kearney, the team manager, took the press conference at which the 33-man squad was announced. Isn't it rather unusual for the Mgr, rather than the coach to make this kind of announcement during a tournament? I was just idly wondering if after Rob Penney's comments on SZ last week (quoted earlier in this thread) if Joe does not want to answer the question.

There is a huge amount of speculation amongst fans as to why he has been omitted. It may be the case that JS does not think he is match fit; it may be that he doesn't fit with Joe's plans; it may be that Joe doesn't like his off-field shenanigans; it may be that Joe does not like his on-field whatever; it may be that Joe has given him some work-ons and he hasn't done them. Whatever the reason, we are all shooting in the dark because no one is telling us why he is not in the squad.

I was at Kingsholm a few weeks ago when Gloucester played host to Munster. I was surrounded by Glawster season ticket holders. When Zebo came on at about 60 minutes a buzz went through the crowd - and this was not just from Munster fans. Around where we were the Glawster fans were really looking forward to seeing him play. They recognised that he could produce that play that was in nobody's play-book and could bring the game alive. This is what the Gloucester fans were looking forward to - a really talented player appreciated by rugby fans of all colours even though it was against their own team.

When it comes to team players, Simon Zebo is NO Kevin Peterson (sp?). He is a team player; he knows the game plan before a game (last year before the HEC match against Quins he "performed" the game plan as a rap in the dressing room which proved he knew it!).

Personally I look at the Ireland back five and wonder where the creativity will come from?

KiaRose wrote:
Personally I look at the Ireland back five and wonder where the creativity will come from?

It'll come in large part from the front 5 providing Murray and Sexton good ball to hoof and chase and our back 3 putting huge pressure on the England wings. Beyond that we have some good carriers in the backrow and along with Murray will attack around the fringes of the lineout and maul. If we do get space out wide I think our back 3 are good finishers.

I think there probably is an issue between his personality and Joe schmidt but also there are other guys playing well in his position so he has to bide his time.

Joe was never going to drop Trimble or Kearney and McFadden offers more from the bench so am not really surprised he hasn't made it.

Agree with all of that Kia.  He's exciting, he has a mishevious spirit, he can be infectious, he certainly has a plethora of Natural skills - instincts more than trained skills - and no doubt about it, Ireland would love to be known as the team with the next few season's most exciting and dangerous wing.

But - so too would Schmidt and his fellow coaches want such a player onboard (and I'm only talking about the squad at this point - not the match day select for the England game).  
So the question again comes back at us - what are the factors keeping him out?  They must be substantial to dissuade Schmidt (so far) from having a player that could help him sow the seeds of his own future career right straight into the ABs job in a few years time.

It's in Schmidt's best interests as a career coach to have Ireland winning and to have the best players on display in order to achieve that - he has no vested interest in keeping Zebo off the team any longer than needs be - for whatever reason that is.

I go back to something I mentioned earlier.  In the weekend Munster game - Zebo scored two tries.  Tries are lovely and he can score them - but in both of them, I saw things Schmidt mightn't be impressed with.... and I said it at the time to a friend who was watching the game with me. (NOT the celebrations)

So.............. who knows, as you say.  But I know what I'm guessing at and it does seem to be a bit of a dare game between two stubborn people.

Zebo flatters to deceive at times - he's a decent talent but not the finished article and if his attitude isn't right then he won't become the finished article.

I've seen nothing from Zebo to convince me he is a better winger than Trimble, Kearney or McFadden and certainly not Bowe. A fit Fitzgerald would have an equally valid claim on the 11 shirt and a fit Bowe is better than them all still.

I'd have Zebo marginally ahead of Gilroy and Earls on this seasons form but that's it.

He'd be my 3rd choice left wing and 4th choice right wing if everyone was fit.

KiaRose wrote:I noticed Michael Kearney, the team manager, took the press conference at which the 33-man squad was announced.  Isn't it rather unusual for the Mgr, rather than the coach to make this kind of announcement during a tournament?  

Michael Kearney has taken the press conference earlier in the week since he started in the job I believe.The manager takes the Monday press conference and the coach takes the Thursday press conference- always been that way. Thats how it was in the autumn, thats how it was in the first two rounds so it's not unusual in any way whatsoever. You say it like Schmidt is ducking out of talking about Zebo- is anyone even asking the question at the press conference? Why not also ask the question about Mike McCarthy or Darren Cave who are in many ways equally unlucky?

Right now, I don't see how its a controversial decision. Last year Andrew Trimble wasn't included in the Six Nations squad and there was little outcry despite the fact he was most definitely in better form than Bowe or Gilroy, and thats just the Ulster wingers he was directly competing with and above in the provincial pecking order. Kidney had no place for him in his game plan. When you have strength in depth in a position someone is always going to be unlucky and this year it's Zebo. It has more to do with who is the best fit for the gameplan than anything else.

We're just not used to having strength in depth so we get ourselves twisted up when we see talented players not making the Ireland squad. We've been working towards having the luxury of not picking guys like Zebo and still having as good a back three as anybody in the competition for the past decade, we might as well enjoy it. 10, 15 years ago it would be inconceivable that we could afford to leave out a player like Zebo. Now we're still probably odds on for a Top 2 finish if he doesn't play at all and if we beat England we'll be strong favourites for the championship itself. I call that progress.

KiaRose wrote:So the main topic of conversation is "Why no Zebo?"

I noticed Michael Kearney, the team manager, took the press conference at which the 33-man squad was announced.  Isn't it rather unusual for the Mgr, rather than the coach to make this kind of announcement during a tournament?  I was just idly wondering if after Rob Penney's comments on SZ last week (quoted earlier in this thread) if Joe does not want to answer the question.

There is a huge amount of speculation amongst fans as to why he has been omitted.  It may be the case that JS does not think he is match fit; it may be that he doesn't fit with Joe's plans; it may be that Joe doesn't like his off-field shenanigans; it may be that Joe does not like his on-field whatever; it may be that Joe has given him some work-ons and he hasn't done them.  Whatever the reason, we are all shooting in the dark because no one is telling us why he is not in the squad.

I was at Kingsholm a few weeks ago when Gloucester played host to Munster.  I was surrounded by Glawster season ticket holders.  When  Zebo came on at about 60 minutes a buzz went through the crowd - and this was not just from Munster fans.  Around where we were the Glawster fans were really looking forward to seeing him play.  They recognised that he could produce that play that was in nobody's play-book and could bring the game alive.  This is what the Gloucester fans were looking forward to - a really talented player appreciated by rugby fans of all colours even though it was against their own team.

When it comes to team players, Simon Zebo is NO Kevin Peterson (sp?). He is a team player; he knows the game plan before a game (last year before the HEC match against Quins he "performed" the game plan as a rap in the dressing room which proved he knew it!).  

Personally I look at the Ireland back five and wonder where the creativity will come from?

Ah Kia you clearly dont know as much as the eminent wing expert Rodders for example Rodders clearly has not seen the form of Earls this year up to his (new) injury...etc. Or for SecretFly who "saw" something in the two tries that JS might not like...  . Amazing stuff.

Apparently we are "hiding" our moves according to some posters and will show our hand on Saturday.

For creativity I suggest you look to Cian Healy. He beat more defenders and made as many yards as both wingers in the Scottish game. He didnt make as many yards in the Welsh game but did beat two defenders. Possibly making him our best attacker so far.

You can't see what I'm talking about, you're either a blind fanboy or just blind, ME.  Take your pick..I don't care.  I see what I see and it's up there in on video forever - go look.  But drop into Specsavers before looking again

I would love to know what you saw that Joe didnt like. Was it the steal where he ripped the ball clean over on our own 22? Was it the 2 massive clearances from the boot, the countless tackles or maybe it was just the fact that he popped up on his opposite wing to run in the second try. Or was the hugging on the children after the game. Down with that sort of thing.

He scores hat trick after hat trick in the HC, he has lightening pace, he is strong a team players a proven try scorer, shown he can create something out of nothing but he is not good enough for 33 - he has done all he could on the pitch. The rest is just pure rugby snobbery.

ME-109 wrote:Rodders clearly has not seen the form of Earls this

If you're referring to the lucky try he scored where the ball shot out the side of the ruck when there were no defenders I did notice.   

You tell us SF..you clearly saw it...what was it?

BlueMuff wrote: The rest is just pure rugby snobbery.

I'm not the snob telling him all that isn't good enough. I'm the snob who would have him in the bigger squad, personally speaking. But he ain't. Someone is telling him something.