Team Changes for Ireland

First topic message reminder :

So does anyone think Joe is going to make any changes to the starting 15 for Ireland v England?

Personally I think our backline have show no creativity and except for individual cameos from various players has been at best stodgy. In the original squad I and others voiced concerns over leaving Zebo and others out. However I think now that given the way the team has won its first two games and all players have done well Joe cannot change the starting 15 as it would give a wrong message players....so steady as she goes Joe or do we try to play like the harlem globetrotters....

BlueMuff wrote:I would love to know what you saw that Joe didnt like. Was it the steal where he ripped the ball clean over on our own 22? Was it the 2 massive clearances from the boot, the countless tackles or maybe it was just the fact that he popped up on his opposite wing to run in the second try. Or was the hugging on the children after the game. Down with that sort of thing.

He scores hat trick after hat trick in the HC, he has lightening pace, he is strong a team players a proven try scorer, shown he can create something out of nothing but he is not good enough for 33 - he has done all he could on the pitch. The rest is just pure rugby snobbery.

Yes but focusing on what Zebo did or didn't do is only half the equation. Maybe he just isn't in the squad because of what other players are doing rather than what he isn't?




...Conversely it could be his haircut and boots.

rodders wrote:

BlueMuff wrote:I would love to know what you saw that Joe didnt like. Was it the steal where he ripped the ball clean over on our own 22? Was it the 2 massive clearances from the boot, the countless tackles or maybe it was just the fact that he popped up on his opposite wing to run in the second try. Or was the hugging on the children after the game. Down with that sort of thing.

He scores hat trick after hat trick in the HC, he has lightening pace, he is strong a team players a proven try scorer, shown he can create something out of nothing but he is not good enough for 33 - he has done all he could on the pitch. The rest is just pure rugby snobbery.

Yes but focusing on what Zebo did or didn't do is only half the equation. Maybe he just isn't in the squad because of what other players are doing rather than what he isn't?




...Conversely it could be his haircut and boots.

You're right Rodders...he needs to stop making breaks and beating defenders and possibly stop scoring tries.

ME-109 wrote:You tell us SF..you clearly saw it...what was it?

Pick it out for me ME.  Do the work.  Be Schmidt.  Get into his head.  
He ain't being picked for a reason.  
He doesn't seem to care though - he's daring the Irish coaches to leave him out but I don't think he was trying to impress Schmidt that night.  That's his prerogative.  His choice.  He's free to be who he wants to be (as Penney has alluded to) But Penney says he should also have the smarts to follow the 'advice' he might be getting and get back on the International team.

SecretFly wrote:

ME-109 wrote:You tell us SF..you clearly saw it...what was it?

Pick it out for me ME.  Do the work.  Be Schmidt.  Get into his head.  
He ain't being picked for a reason.  
He doesn't seem to care though - he's daring the Irish coaches to leave him out but I don't think he was trying to impress Schmidt that night.  That's his prerogative.  His choice.  He's free to be who he wants to be (as Penney has alluded to) But Penney says he should also have the smarts to follow the 'advice' he might be getting and get back on the International team.

I still have no idea what you are talking about...

What do you think JS didnt like over the last two games....
The multiple clean breaks (5)
Multiple defenders beaten (10)
Multiple offloads (4)
Metres gained (157)
Multiple scores (3)
Great positioning as FB in the Cardiff game and excellent left boot.

I forgot decent tackling, supporting players, hitting rucks etc...

ME-109 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

ME-109 wrote:You tell us SF..you clearly saw it...what was it?

Pick it out for me ME.  Do the work.  Be Schmidt.  Get into his head.  
He ain't being picked for a reason.  
He doesn't seem to care though - he's daring the Irish coaches to leave him out but I don't think he was trying to impress Schmidt that night.  That's his prerogative.  His choice.  He's free to be who he wants to be (as Penney has alluded to) But Penney says he should also have the smarts to follow the 'advice' he might be getting and get back on the International team.

I still have no idea what you are talking about...

Of course you don't, ME.  

Penney does though.  How clear does a man have to be without saying anything direct?  He's given the whole show in what he said about Zebo and the lurking issues beneath the surface.  Zebo, the free spirit resisting the bridle and the bit from the Irish boss.  Penney understands and sympathises with Zebo (Me too in a sense - I like mavericks)  But Penney also states that pragmatism is needed by Zebo to find a way to please people who aren't impressed yet.  
I keep saying this is a Dare game going on between a player unwilling to compromise and a management insisting on compromise.

Name	Defenders Beaten	Clean Breaks
Sexton	5	1
Healy	5	1
D Kearney	4	1
Trimble	4	2
O'Driscoll	3	0
R Kearney	3	1
D'Arcy	3	0
Heaslip	3	1

Don't mind this, just trying to figure out a quick way of creating tables, this ain't it!

SecretFly wrote:

BlueMuff wrote: The rest is just pure rugby snobbery.  

I'm not the snob telling him all that isn't good enough.  I'm the snob who would have him in the bigger squad, personally speaking.  But he ain't.  Someone is telling him something.

Right guys, you know the rules. Whenever a Munster fan mentions rugby snobbery or the D4 media we all have to drink      

Notch wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

BlueMuff wrote: The rest is just pure rugby snobbery.  

I'm not the snob telling him all that isn't good enough.  I'm the snob who would have him in the bigger squad, personally speaking.  But he ain't.  Someone is telling him something.

Right guys, you know the rules. Whenever a Munster fan mentions rugby snobbery or the D4 media we all have to drink      

Dont you think as a moderator mocking someone/peoples views in that sense is only a small step to condoning online bullying? No...then go read the rulebook again..

I dont think it's anything that Zebo is doing wrong, its what the other guys are doing right. I'd have Zebo in, but I can see JS thinking that while form outside the Ireland Jersey should inform selection, form in the Ireland jersey should be top. And as both Kearney, Trimble and McFadden are two for two in impressive style and playing well, there is no reason they should lose their spots, especially in a team that has really struggled for consistent performances under the last two coaches. I think he will get his shot if either of those lose form.

Interesting that that neither centre has made a break....

Re Zebo: regardless of whether he should be in or out I applaud Schmidt for sticking to his guns - too often in Ireland the cronies in the media and players pick the side.

Bullying????????????

Online bullying?

Tough Munster men, hard-assed Leinster folk (in skirts and lipstick), stoic oak-like Ulster men, and teak tough ocean-going Connacht men?

Bullying?

Come on ME - Please don't use that ancient BEBO schmaltz here

rodders wrote:Interesting that that neither centre has made a break....

The Gameplan you've been lauding to date Rodders...the one with Kearney and Trimble in there that we don't need to spoil

SecretFly wrote:

ME-109 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

ME-109 wrote:You tell us SF..you clearly saw it...what was it?

Pick it out for me ME.  Do the work.  Be Schmidt.  Get into his head.  
He ain't being picked for a reason.  
He doesn't seem to care though - he's daring the Irish coaches to leave him out but I don't think he was trying to impress Schmidt that night.  That's his prerogative.  His choice.  He's free to be who he wants to be (as Penney has alluded to) But Penney says he should also have the smarts to follow the 'advice' he might be getting and get back on the International team.

I still have no idea what you are talking about...

Of course you don't, ME.  

Penney does though.  How clear does a man have to be without saying anything direct?  He's given the whole show in what he said about Zebo and the lurking issues beneath the surface.  Zebo, the free spirit resisting the bridle and the bit from the Irish boss.  Penney understands and sympathises with Zebo (Me too in a sense - I like mavericks)  But Penney also states that pragmatism is needed by Zebo to find a way to please people who aren't impressed yet.  
I keep saying this is a Dare game going on between a player unwilling to compromise and a management insisting on compromise.

Unwilling to compromise on what? And I keep saying is we have a Teacher type (assistant principal no less) who seems to think they are doing that job again. As Kia has pointed out and as most people know Zebo is a pure team player...so what do we have now...a requirement for people to change their personality...interesting.

SecretFly wrote:Bullying????????????

Online bullying?

Tough Munster men, hard-assed Leinster folk (in skirts and lipstick), stoic oak-like Ulster men, and teak tough ocean-going Connacht men?

Bullying?

Come on ME - Please don't use that ancient BEBO schmaltz here

Notch is a moderator...as a moderator he has certain responsibilities. What if I or Bluemuff came back and told him to take his views and stuff em...etc etc. we would get a ban even though Notch has for certain ramped it up? I had this issue with Mods before and their online mates....

SecretFly wrote:

rodders wrote:Interesting that that neither centre has made a break....

The Gameplan you've been lauding to date Rodders...the one with Kearney and Trimble in there that we don't need to spoil  

Breaks are over rated fly - just there to put fair weather fans bums on seats. Its all about the ruck, maul and Garryowen for me.

ME-109 wrote:
Notch is a moderator...as a moderator he has certain responsibilities. What if I or Bluemuff came back and told him to take his views and stuff em...etc etc. we would get a ban even though Notch has for certain ramped it up? I had this issue with Mods before and their online mates....

I'd be more wondering if you reported him would he have to moderate himself?   

So Schmidt is just plain wrong, ME - just doesn't like Zebo and will never have him on his team?

I can guess at the reasons, Penney can guess at the reasons - and state so publically.  Yet you and others don't have a blessed notion what's up?  Other than it's all got to do with Schmidt being a teacher.

Wasn't Kidney one too?  How come that never came into our collective opinions on his coaching style back in the day?

Thats the snobbery things. Some people dont like he plays with socks down, some people dont like the "Z", some people cant stand he plays with a smile on his face. Some dont even like him signing autographs for kids.

Notch its not a Munster thing - I've yet to read one rugby reason why he isnt being picked. Joe himself started by saying it was fittness. Well he has proved that so come on lets have the rugby reasons why he shouldnt be in a 33 man squad.

SecretFly wrote:So Schmidt is just plain wrong, ME - just doesn't like Zebo and will never have him on his team?

I can guess at the reasons, Penney can guess at the reasons - and state so publically.  Yet you and others don't have a blessed notion what's up?  Other than it's all got to do with Schmidt being a teacher.

Wasn't Kidney one too?  How come that never came into our collective opinions on his coaching style back in the day?

I was pretty clear in what I think is up. JS wants Zebo to act in a certain way. Who knows if this has actually been communicated or not. Penney alludes to it, that is all, yet he could just be speculating as well. You do of course ignore Penney comments a few weeks back about Zebo being "Shut out"....

On the other hand JS has not been up front and honest on this, making reference to injuries etc. Oh and picking Jones in the squad makes it even clearer that this is not about rugby.

On DK he moved to wishy washy career guidance teacher quite some time back. JS was an assistant principal and everyone loves them.

If I told you to stuff your views, I would hope and expect that my fellow mods and admins would deal with me because thats out of line. If you told me to stuff my views, I would also consult with other mods when possible or if not possible make a decision because thats equally out of line.

It's the same process. That said, its often hard to judge tone on forums and I hope that people appreciate that my intention here is not to mock but to inject levity and humour into the discussion. Thats the line; one mans joke is another mans insult. BlueMuff is a good poster and he's been around so I hope he and others know when someone is trying to stir things up and when someone is just trying to keep the discussion light.

When I was made a mod, I stopped participating in the forum to a certain extent but then I quickly recognised that was stupid- the reason I was a mod was that I posted so much and was generally fair and even-handed. The reason I did that was because I enjoyed the forum. If being a mod meant I wasn't going to enjoy the forum, then it was a waste of time and if everyone looked at it like that we'd have no mods and no-one would get to enjoy the forum because there would be much more nonsense on all sides- all of us who are admins, mods etc. have always taken the position that you are a poster first and mod second.

After all, I'm volunteering my time and energy to try and make this a better forum for everyone- why should that mean I don't get to have a bit of craic with everyone else?  

No no..Kidney was a full blown no-nonsense "Where's you're homework, Murphy!!!!!" dour Maths Teacher  (Ain't they all dour - it's the numbers for dreams that mucks them up)

Anyway, Kidney was often accused of leaving out 'in-form' players in favour of top-of-the-class favourites.......  Maybe he gave the 'in-form' players homework to do, and they laughed the homework away and just did their own thing?

Naughty Boys!!!  Bum slaps all round!

BlueMuff wrote:Thats the snobbery things. Some people dont like he plays with socks down, some people dont like the "Z", some people cant stand he plays with a smile on his face. Some dont even like him signing autographs for kids.

Notch its not a Munster thing - I've yet to read one rugby reason why he isnt being picked. Joe himself started by saying it was fittness. Well he has proved that so come on lets have the rugby reasons why he shouldnt be in a 33 man squad.

No I understand that. Like I've said I'd have him in the 33-man squad myself but not in the 23. The rugby reasons for me are- Andrew Trimble and David Kearney don't deserve to be dropped after the first two games, Fergus McFadden covers the centres on the bench and also offers another place kicking option.

Maybe the two guys who are in the team were lucky to get their chance initially due to the likes of Zebo having not very much game time going into the tournament but they've been pretty much immaculate so far and so they've earned the right to keep playing. Thats professional sport for you; when you get an opportunity grab it and sometimes if someone else is in the jersey you want to be in you just have to suck it up and wait for your shot. If Zebo is frustrated with the situation he could ask Andrew Trimble about being unlucky with selection and waiting for your chance, and the importance of grabbing it when it comes, because he's been exactly where Zebo is now many times in his career.

There's no great conspiracy to it. The back three have been asked to execute a very specific game plan and they have done it very well, so the coaches probably don't see the need to make a change there- especially going into a tough away game where we are going to have to kick away a lot of ball, be strong under the high ball and kick chase well. Then you're not really looking for pace and flair, you're looking for aerial skills, physicality and a kicking game. Not that Zebo doesn't have that. Zebo is a guy who is an international class wing, but the problem he's having is that so are about 5 or 6 other guys in Ireland.

There's your rugby reason! As for the Felix Jones bit- I don't agree with it, but its obviously better for Zebo to be playing for Munster than holding tackle bags.

SecretFly wrote:No no..Kidney was a full blown no-nonsense "Where's you're homework, Murphy!!!!!" dour Maths Teacher  (Ain't they all dour - it's the numbers for dreams that mucks them up)

Anyway, Kidney was often accused of leaving out 'in-form' players in favour of top-of-the-class favourites.......  Maybe he gave the 'in-form' players homework to do, and they laughed the homework away and just did their own thing?

Naughty Boys!!!  Bum slaps all round!

Originally a maths teacher and became career guidance officer.

Kidney never banished a player from the squad and in 99.9999% of the case his match squad had the form players. Certainly his 33 man squad did....

To reiterate I dont think Trimble or DK should be dropped but I do think there is something else around this that doesnt sit right...

Well yes...there is something around this, ME.  And as you say Schmidt is talking around the issue at the moment (whenever he talks about it at all)  
But I have no doubt that when push eventually comes to shove (as it will do if Zebo keeps being outside a 33 selection), he'll come out shooting from the hip and he'll be quite direct in what he wants, what he's asked for and what he feels he hasn't gotten.

The journalists should be careful what they wish for, and even us as fans.  Right now, team unity is essential.  Does a coach ever choose to bad mouth an individual player or isolate one for his wrath, as it were?  No - they try mostly to steer away from that for team-building purposes AND with the intention of welcoming that player back into the fold without too much damage done to the relationship in the press.

But if the calls for an explanation grow, I don't doubt that Schmidt will have a meticulous list.  This isn't personal - it's business.  He wants something from Zebo.  He's bound to have communicated that to Zebo.  So far Zebo hasn't taken up the offer.  OR, he simply is serving out a suspension period for the Summer tour stuff, like we've chatted about a few weeks ago. Maybe he knows exactly when he'll be back and is limbering up in readiness

SecretFly wrote:Well yes...there is something around this, ME.  And as you say Schmidt is talking around the issue at the moment (whenever he talks about it at all)  
But I have no doubt that when push eventually comes to shove (as it will do if Zebo keeps being outside a 33 selection), he'll come out shooting from the hip and he'll be quite direct in what he wants, what he's asked for and what he feels he hasn't gotten.

The journalists should be careful what they wish for, and even us as fans.  Right now, team unity is essential.  Does a coach ever choose to bad mouth an individual player or isolate one for his wrath, as it were?  No - they try mostly to steer away from that for team-building purposes AND with the intention of welcoming that player back into the fold without too much damage done to the relationship in the press.

But if the calls for an explanation grow, I don't doubt that Schmidt will have a meticulous list.  This isn't personal - it's business.  He wants something from Zebo.  He's bound to have communicated that to Zebo.  So far Zebo hasn't taken up the offer.  OR, he simply is serving out a suspension period for the Summer tour stuff, like we've chatted about a few weeks ago.  Maybe he knows exactly when he'll be back and is limbering up in readiness

Except that he was included in the AIs squad. So that debunks last summer. At this stage he is studiously ignoring the question except for the Injury comment a few weeks back. All we have are the two comments (pointed) from Penney...

For me it all depends on how results go for the next three matches.

No the AI squad does not debunk last summer. If there is punishment (and I say again any punishment might not be at the behest of Schmidt himself but the guy who was in command during that Summer tour - Kiss) then it might have been outlined what that would be and when it would function (6N - big contest that Zebo would, as an ambitious player, want to be involved in).

I'm not convinced it's a punishment thing for the summer but, in the absence of concrete information, it's there as a possibility still. Didn't someone say they had factual backup on the truth of that one? I know, facts and 606??? Still, it was doing the rounds as a substantial rumour.

SecretFly wrote:No the AI squad does not debunk last summer.  If there is punishment (and I say again any punishment might not be at the behest of Schmidt himself but the guy who was in command during that Summer tour - Kiss) then it might have been outlined what that would be and when it would function (6N - big contest that Zebo would, as an ambitious player, want to be involved in).  

I'm not convinced it's a punishment thing for the summer but, in the absence of concrete information, it's there as a possibility still.  Didn't someone say they had factual backup on the truth of that one?  I know, facts and 606???  Still, it was doing the rounds as a substantial rumour.

Your man with the shoulder apparently knew it as a "fact" Anyhow changing it to Kiss doesnt make sense either...although given how the backline have been playing you could be right.

Apparently O'Driscoll has a stomach bug and could be out.

ME-109 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:No the AI squad does not debunk last summer.  If there is punishment (and I say again any punishment might not be at the behest of Schmidt himself but the guy who was in command during that Summer tour - Kiss) then it might have been outlined what that would be and when it would function (6N - big contest that Zebo would, as an ambitious player, want to be involved in).  

I'm not convinced it's a punishment thing for the summer but, in the absence of concrete information, it's there as a possibility still.  Didn't someone say they had factual backup on the truth of that one?  I know, facts and 606???  Still, it was doing the rounds as a substantial rumour.

Your man with the shoulder apparently knew it as a "fact" Anyhow changing it to Kiss doesnt make sense either...although given how the backline have been playing you could be right.

I heard another dirty rumour. Simon Zebo simply isn't good enough yet. Ohhhh surely not.

We're doomed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Who will not do the Centre breaks for us now??!!!!

Nah, he's good enough. We've just have a lot of players in that position who are also good enough.

Notch wrote:Nah, he's good enough. We've just have a lot of players in that position who are also good enough.

Maybe Trimble, DK and McFadden have actually set the bar and until the others prove they can do a better job they are in possession. Too controversial?

GunsGerms wrote:

ME-109 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:No the AI squad does not debunk last summer.  If there is punishment (and I say again any punishment might not be at the behest of Schmidt himself but the guy who was in command during that Summer tour - Kiss) then it might have been outlined what that would be and when it would function (6N - big contest that Zebo would, as an ambitious player, want to be involved in).  

I'm not convinced it's a punishment thing for the summer but, in the absence of concrete information, it's there as a possibility still.  Didn't someone say they had factual backup on the truth of that one?  I know, facts and 606???  Still, it was doing the rounds as a substantial rumour.

Your man with the shoulder apparently knew it as a "fact" Anyhow changing it to Kiss doesnt make sense either...although given how the backline have been playing you could be right.

I heard another dirty rumour. Simon Zebo simply isn't good enough yet. Ohhhh surely not.

Same as POM guns...effing useless.

GunsGerms wrote:

Notch wrote:Nah, he's good enough. We've just have a lot of players in that position who are also good enough.

Maybe Trimble, DK and McFadden have actually set the bar and until the others prove they can do a better job they are in possession. Too controversial?

No, I totally agree with that but if one of them was to get injured I would have a great deal of confidence that Zebo could come in as a replacement and the team would not suffer.

GunsGerms wrote:

Notch wrote:Nah, he's good enough. We've just have a lot of players in that position who are also good enough.

Maybe Trimble, DK and McFadden have actually set the bar and until the others prove they can do a better job they are in possession. Too controversial?

No...clueless...  

Notch wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Notch wrote:Nah, he's good enough. We've just have a lot of players in that position who are also good enough.

Maybe Trimble, DK and McFadden have actually set the bar and until the others prove they can do a better job they are in possession. Too controversial?

No, I totally agree with that but if one of them was to get injured I would have a great deal of confidence that Zebo could come in as a replacement and the team would not suffer.

You're right there...however it might be better to have Healy on the wing seeing as he is doing a better job at the moment.

Only if we can have Paul Marshall on the other wing. Faster than Zebo!

Notch wrote:Only if we can have Paul Marshall on the other wing. Faster than Zebo!

says who?

To suggest that replacing a winger will yield a new gameplan is a joke.

I think it's gas that Munster fans are cribbing about "snobbery" because their flash dan can't make the team ahead of the workmanlike Ulster and Leinster folks. BM even suggested people don't like Zebo signing autographs for kids, jeysus you could cut the irony on here with a knife...

POM is very versatile and can do no wrong surely he can play on the wing?

I have a great source that is close to the Ulster dressing room. Is it Paul Marshalls mum? I won't be drawing into confirming or denying that.

GunsGerms wrote:POM is very versatile and can do no wrong surely he can play on the wing?

He ended up out there due to injuries in a game last year didn't he?

Notch wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:POM is very versatile and can do no wrong surely he can play on the wing?

He ended up out there due to injuries in a game last year didn't he?

He used to end up there in a lot of games. Nothing to do with injuries.

GunsGerms wrote:Apparently O'Driscoll has a stomach bug and could be out.

oh oh..that could mean we have NoDefense McFadden as OC...

ME-109 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Apparently O'Driscoll has a stomach bug and could be out.

oh oh..that could mean we have NoDefense McFadden as OC...

Aww gees! Save us Zebo!

Simon Zebo, Simon Zebo
(dah dah dah dah)
Simon Zebo, Simon Zebo
(dah dah dah dah)
Simon Zebo, Simon Zebo...
...oh Simon Zebo.

(Simon Zebo, Simon Zebo!)

Zebos not been picked- Is Joe Schmidt crazy?!
Is he just too flash- or is he also lazy?

Simon Zebo, Simon Zebo
(dah dah dah dah)
Simon Zebo, Simon Zebo
(dah dah dah dah)
Simon Zebo, Simon Zebo...
...oh Simon Zebo.

(Simon Zebo, Simon Zebo!)

rodders wrote:

ME-109 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Apparently O'Driscoll has a stomach bug and could be out.

oh oh..that could mean we have NoDefense McFadden as OC...

Aww gees! Save us Zebo!

Nah mate he is a winger/FB (dont you watch the rugby rodders??)...

Of course if BOD is out we have a ready made replacement in   

The wheel is falling off the wagon already.  

I knew we'd have to try and mimic England when they lost Cole.  Leave it to the Irish to always give the f**kin' sucker his even break.... even though it isn't in the gameplan.

The worrying part about Schmidt v Zebo is that Schmidt has form for this kind of thing. He is hated in Auckland (and some say why he had to leave the Blues for Clermont) because he is blamed for destroying Carlos Spencer's confidence.