Team Changes for Ireland

First topic message reminder :

So does anyone think Joe is going to make any changes to the starting 15 for Ireland v England?

Personally I think our backline have show no creativity and except for individual cameos from various players has been at best stodgy. In the original squad I and others voiced concerns over leaving Zebo and others out. However I think now that given the way the team has won its first two games and all players have done well Joe cannot change the starting 15 as it would give a wrong message players....so steady as she goes Joe or do we try to play like the harlem globetrotters....

Right screw you guys and your lost cause I'm backing England

  swing low sweeeeeeeet chariot.....  

I'll have to get over to the English thread quickly and report that Zebo is now playing.  They'll be mortified.  We've already sold POM to them as the Brooklin Bridge.

Sin é wrote:The worrying part about Schmidt v Zebo is that Schmidt has form for this kind of thing. He is hated in Auckland (and some say why he had to leave the Blues for Clermont) because he is blamed for destroying Carlos Spencer's confidence.

Once an Assistant Principal always an Assistant Principal...

Sin é wrote:The worrying part about Schmidt v Zebo is that Schmidt has form for this kind of thing. He is hated in Auckland (and some say why he had to leave the Blues for Clermont) because he is blamed for destroying Carlos Spencer's confidence.

Nah...Carlos Spencer's Confidence has already written in his auto-biography that he didn't need Schmidt to cut-loose on Carlos.  He had a better offer on the table, his agent recommended the switch and he's now playing in some backwater on the edge of the North Atlantic.

Here forget about that Zebedee fell for a minute -

Donnacha Ryan, what sort of nick is he in? Will he be anywhere near top form if selected in the bench? Any concerns about him if O'Connell can't do the 80min?

rodders wrote:Here forget about that Zebedee fell for a minute -

Donnacha Ryan, what sort of nick is he in? Will he be anywhere near top form if selected in the bench? Any concerns about him if O'Connell can't do the 80min?

He's rubbish...shouldnt be anywhere near the team...(Copyright...Guns)

ME-109 wrote:

rodders wrote:Here forget about that Zebedee fell for a minute -

Donnacha Ryan, what sort of nick is he in? Will he be anywhere near top form if selected in the bench? Any concerns about him if O'Connell can't do the 80min?

He's rubbish...shouldnt be anywhere near the team...(Copyright...Guns)

Misquote. I said I wouldn't be surprised if he never played for Ireland again. Not quite the same thing and based on the fact that we have Henderson, Tuohy and McCarthy in reserve to POC and Toner. This was also before Tuohy broke his arm and Ryan was still injured.

GunsGerms wrote:

ME-109 wrote:

rodders wrote:Here forget about that Zebedee fell for a minute -

Donnacha Ryan, what sort of nick is he in? Will he be anywhere near top form if selected in the bench? Any concerns about him if O'Connell can't do the 80min?

He's rubbish...shouldnt be anywhere near the team...(Copyright...Guns)

Misquote. I said I wouldn't be surprised if he never played for Ireland again. Not quite the same thing and based on the fact that we have Henderson, Tuohy and McCarthy in reserve to POC and Toner. This was also before Tuohy broke his arm and Ryan was still injured.

Like I said.

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:The worrying part about Schmidt v Zebo is that Schmidt has form for this kind of thing. He is hated in Auckland (and some say why he had to leave the Blues for Clermont) because he is blamed for destroying Carlos Spencer's confidence.

Nah...Carlos Spencer's Confidence has already written in his auto-biography that he didn't need Schmidt to cut-loose on Carlos.  He had a better offer on the table, his agent recommended the switch and he's now playing in some backwater on the edge of the North Atlantic.

The Blues just won the Super Rugby title when Schmidt came in as Backs coach.

Spencer was outrageous in 2003; angels sung in his head and even Midas himself would have marvelled at the first five's alchemist's touch.

Winning the title was a formality - the only doubt was for how long Spencer could touch the stars.

It felt in those heady days of magical rugby as if the Blues could live there forever and Super Rugby would sit in their pocket for an eternity.


But that grip proved more fragile than anyone realised and the last tenuously clinging finger was prised free in 2005.

That was the beginning of the end; the year it all started to go wrong.

New backs coach Joe Schmidt never got Spencer at all. The two men had different views, different ideas and by the end of March the relationship was hanging by a thread.

Spencer was accused of not following the game plan and out he went - replaced by Tasesa Lavea. Suddenly the Blues were adrift at sea, where they have roamed like zombie pirates since. They had an itchy foot but rather than scratch it - they chopped it off.

Which rational judge of talent could have believed in Lavea ahead of Spencer? The great man was only 29 when they let him go - short of confidence but not talent.

He had rugby left in him and, had the Blues been patient, they could have nursed him back to form and who knows, Spencer may have been around for another five years and the Blues may have won more titles.

All sounds looks like history is repeating itself. Even how Schmidt brought in Goppert to replace Sexton for Leinster! There was no way he was going to put any faith in Ian Madigan.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=10791216

No you said that I thought Ryan was the worst player ever to play for Ireland and is just a poor mans Mick O'Driscoll who himself is a poor mans Donnacha O'Callaghan. That's not what I said though.

GunsGerms wrote:No you said that I thought Ryan was the worst player ever to play for Ireland and is just a poor mans Mick O'Driscoll who himself is a poor mans Donnacha O'Callaghan. That's not what I said though.

No I said you thought he was useless and shouldnt be considered again...and then made something up (as you usually do) about the lineout being useless etc etc...

GunsGerms wrote:

ME-109 wrote:

rodders wrote:Here forget about that Zebedee fell for a minute -

Donnacha Ryan, what sort of nick is he in? Will he be anywhere near top form if selected in the bench? Any concerns about him if O'Connell can't do the 80min?

He's rubbish...shouldnt be anywhere near the team...(Copyright...Guns)

Misquote. I said I wouldn't be surprised if he never played for Ireland again. Not quite the same thing and based on the fact that we have Henderson, Tuohy and McCarthy in reserve to POC and Toner. This was also before Tuohy broke his arm and Ryan was still injured.

from reading between the lines here, he will be playing for Ireland next weekend.

O’Connell’s Munster pack-mate Donnacha Ryan has impressed Kiss with his energy and enthusiasm since returning to the international set-up. “It is great to see Donnacha back and I know it has been a real plus to have him here. He came in and trained the house down,” said Kiss.

[The second row] is something we have to consider. After losing Dan Tuohy to injury last week we have to look at what our stocks are. It’s timely for Donnacha to come back into the fray.”
Ryan’s return from a niggling leg injury means he has to rapidly get himself up to speed with plays, calls and tactics. “The plus is,” said Kiss, “is that he gets to work with Paul [O'Connell] a lot in terms of the line-out. A lot of the calls and systems are not too far removed from [our] type. There will be that transfer of knowledge about the new attack and defence systems that Joe has implemented. He has to get his head around a few of those things but Donnacha’s a smart boy.”

Mind-boggling that the Ireland management can say with a straight face that the problem with Zebo is his fitness without even seeing him, yet Donnacha Ryan is fit enough to probably get a bench spot next weekend in one of the most physically gruelling games that he would be likely to play this year after a few minutes against Zebre.

ME-109 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:No you said that I thought Ryan was the worst player ever to play for Ireland and is just a poor mans Mick O'Driscoll who himself is a poor mans Donnacha O'Callaghan. That's not what I said though.

No I said you thought he was useless and shouldnt be considered again...and then made something up (as you usually do) about the lineout being useless etc etc...

See two can play that game. I said I didn't think he would rather than didn't think he should. Can you see the difference?

Anyway you are probably right we have better players now so he probably shouldn't be considered again. However, like Sine says it looks like he will be.

GunsGerms wrote:

ME-109 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:No you said that I thought Ryan was the worst player ever to play for Ireland and is just a poor mans Mick O'Driscoll who himself is a poor mans Donnacha O'Callaghan. That's not what I said though.

No I said you thought he was useless and shouldnt be considered again...and then made something up (as you usually do) about the lineout being useless etc etc...

See two can play that game. I said I didn't think he would rather than didn't think he should. Can you see the difference?

Anyway you are probably right we have better players now so he probably shouldn't be considered again. However, like Sine says it looks like he will be.

ah right..thanks for the clarification...you are wrong as usual concerning the better players.....carry on..

But sure you're forgetting the fact yer man Spencer was rubbish.

This is bleedin gas, Joe Schmidt is hated in Auckland, destroyed Carlos Spencers confidence and took a parting blow at Madigan to do the same...

The tin foil hats suit you Sin.

Mickado wrote:This is bleedin gas, Joe Schmidt is hated in Auckland, destroyed Carlos Spencers confidence and took a parting blow at Madigan to do the same...

The tin foil hats suit you Sin.

Forgotten how to read Mickado...thats too many coconut creams for you.

Mickado wrote:This is bleedin gas, Joe Schmidt is hated in Auckland, destroyed Carlos Spencers confidence and took a parting blow at Madigan to do the same...

The tin foil hats suit you Sin.

Around the time he interviewed with Vern Cotter for the ABs job, a lot of this stuff was brought up in the NZ press and how he is not as popular in NZ as he is in D4. He is regarded as a failure for the Blues.

Mickado wrote:This is bleedin gas, Joe Schmidt is hated in Auckland, destroyed Carlos Spencers confidence and took a parting blow at Madigan to do the same...

The tin foil hats suit you Sin.

I'd just make a slight correction there mickado: "This is bleedin gas, Joe Schmidt is hated in Auckland, destroyed Carlos Spencers confidence and eviscerated Madigan to do the same..."

Never miss a chance to dramatise

Sin, you are Marmalising Schmidt's reputation!  Desist at once or steps will be taken by IRFU to silence you!  You have been warned.  Remove your hand from the Google Search button!

SecretFly wrote:

Mickado wrote:This is bleedin gas, Joe Schmidt is hated in Auckland, destroyed Carlos Spencers confidence and took a parting blow at Madigan to do the same...

The tin foil hats suit you Sin.

I'd just make a slight correction there mickado: "This is bleedin gas, Joe Schmidt is hated in Auckland, destroyed Carlos Spencers confidence and eviscerated Madigan to do the same..."

Never miss a chance to dramatise

Sin, you are Marmalising Schmidt's reputation!  Desist at once or steps will be taken by IRFU to silence you!  You have been warned.  Remove your hand from the Google Search button!

You might get a 100 lines like Zebo...

100 lines?  Is that the punishment?

Jesus!  Internet bullying is how I'd call that slur.

"I shall not Besmirch Joe Schmidt's good name in Public nor score fancy tries when dry, boring ones would do"

SecretFly wrote:100 lines?  Is that the punishment?

Jesus!  Internet bullying is how I'd call that slur.

"I shall not Besmirch Joe Schmidt's good name in Public nor score tries and therefore show up the incumbents"

Fixed that for you..

You see...even when he's told 100 lines will do the trick and have him back cozy in the team, he decides to change the last few words for the craic.

This is what Joe doesn't like - the defiant craic!

Sin é wrote:
he is not as popular in NZ as he is in D4.

What if he moved to D3?

Sin é wrote:The worrying part about Schmidt v Zebo is that Schmidt has form for this kind of thing. He is hated in Auckland (and some say why he had to leave the Blues for Clermont) because he is blamed for destroying Carlos Spencer's confidence.

It's not really that worrying,while Zebo is a good winger he's no Carlos Spencer and with the amount of quality wings Ireland have available he wouldn't be a massive loss.

It's still pretty obvious to anyone with an ounce of sense that Zebo isn't in this time because the guys in possession have done so well and deserve to keep their places.He'll get his chance either against Italy or on the summer tour and then we'll see what he can do.

Just for you Sin since the tin hit is firmly on maybe you think we're talking about Johann Shmidt http://marvel.wikia.com/Johann_Shmidt_(Earth-616) you seem to be treating him as an evil villain.Pity you couldn't see the faults of another school teacher who regularly ignored players in good form for his favourites.The hypocrisy is delicious.

I told you on good authority that his exclusion wasn't entirely based on rugby reasons- his attitude on the summer tour is a huge factor in this. His performances on the pitch would be good enough under any other circumstances to at least get in the 32/33 man panel.

The coaching panel and some senior players felt his attitude and lack of effort in order to protect himself from injury so he could swam off on the Lions tour was disrespectful to the shirt, to his teammates and to the coaching staff. So all the garbage here about celebrations, socks around the ankles or whatever is just that- garbage. No one cares a jot (though Schmidt is known for not being a fan of over the top try celebrations). It is purely down to his attitude. McFadden was Ireland's best back in the autumn and Trimble and Kearney have been in many 'teams of the week' over the past two rounds making it hard to drop them. Bowe has to come back into the reckoning. Earls and Fitzgerald (in that order) had arguably been the form wingers since the autumn. Zebo is in a mess of his own making and it will take a couple of horror shows and some outstanding displays to bring himself back into the Irish panel. A pretty decent showing for Munster non-international XV against the Blues reserves isn't going to change any minds.

rodders wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:
Also is Zebo really the fastest wing in ireland???
Damn quick but so is Earls for sure. Kearney is outrageously fast and is given credit for it.

Heard recently that Paul Marshall has the fastest sprint times in Ireland and is top in a lot fitness tests too...anyone else shed light on this? Hookie?

Indeed, Marshall is quite quick. You might be interested to know that in the sausage supper ten yard dash nobody, and I mean nobody, beats Mike Ross.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:I told you on good authority that his exclusion wasn't entirely based on rugby reasons- his attitude on the summer tour is a huge factor in this.  His performances on the pitch would be good enough under any other circumstances to at least get in the 32/33 man panel.  

The coaching panel and some senior players felt his attitude and lack of effort in order to protect himself from injury so he could swam off on the Lions tour was disrespectful to the shirt, to his teammates and to the coaching staff.  So all the garbage here about celebrations, socks around the ankles or whatever is just that- garbage.  No one cares a jot (though Schmidt is known for not being a fan of over the top try celebrations).  It is purely down to his attitude.  McFadden was Ireland's best back in the autumn and Trimble and Kearney have been in many 'teams of the week' over the past two rounds making it hard to drop them.  Bowe has to come back into the reckoning.  Earls and Fitzgerald (in that order) had arguably been the form wingers since the autumn.  Zebo is in a mess of his own making and it will take a couple of horror shows and some outstanding displays to bring himself back into the Irish panel.  A pretty decent showing for Munster non-international XV against the Blues reserves isn't going to change any minds.  

But Schmidt didn't like Carlos Spencer, so he mustn't like Simon Zebo either. That is the only logical solution..   

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:I told you on good authority that his exclusion wasn't entirely based on rugby reasons- his attitude on the summer tour is a huge factor in this.  His performances on the pitch would be good enough under any other circumstances to at least get in the 32/33 man panel.  

The coaching panel and some senior players felt his attitude and lack of effort in order to protect himself from injury so he could swam off on the Lions tour was disrespectful to the shirt, to his teammates and to the coaching staff.  So all the garbage here about celebrations, socks around the ankles or whatever is just that- garbage.  No one cares a jot (though Schmidt is known for not being a fan of over the top try celebrations).  It is purely down to his attitude.  McFadden was Ireland's best back in the autumn and Trimble and Kearney have been in many 'teams of the week' over the past two rounds making it hard to drop them.  Bowe has to come back into the reckoning.  Earls and Fitzgerald (in that order) had arguably been the form wingers since the autumn.  Zebo is in a mess of his own making and it will take a couple of horror shows and some outstanding displays to bring himself back into the Irish panel.  A pretty decent showing for Munster non-international XV against the Blues reserves isn't going to change any minds.  

But Schmidt didn't like Carlos Spencer, so he mustn't like Simon Zebo either.  That is the only logical solution..   

Alos any mistakes you made at the start of your career are bound to be replicated later on no matter how much you've learned in the intervening period.So J.J. Hanrahan will always be a liability using his mistake in the 1st HC game against Edinburgh as my reasoning.

I don't get why there is so much indignation anyway. The team comes first. Whether what Hookie says is true or a load of hot air (sorry Hookie, but it is the internet) that incident was a real downer and didn't put him in a very good light. He also went on to make a bit of a fool of himself on the Lions tour with his antics after scoring.

The other small point is that Schmidt wasn't head coach at Blues when he is meant to have shafted Spencer. Surely there was a Head coach there to over-rule his regal ways if he assumed the team selection duties himself?

Notch wrote:I don't get why there is so much indignation anyway. The team comes first. Whether what Hookie says is true or a load of hot air (sorry Hookie, but it is the internet) that incident was a real downer and didn't put him in a very good light. He also went on to make a bit of a fool of himself on the Lions tour with his antics after scoring.

How dare you. How very dare you good sir.

I'm afraid I didn't get this from t'internet, I got it from someone in the know. He's a golfing buddy who I play with occasionally and usually take a pound or two off as he's a hacker. Haven't played much recently what the with the weather and all. You know me Notch, I'm made of sugar and might dissolve in the rain. But you know he's telling the truth because we play golf. Like middle class gentlemen. Who would never lie.

In case you fear I'm going off on a tangent, the summer tour is the primary factor now exacerbated by the good form of his rivals. It's pretty simple. Or as that Russian meerkat fella would say, indubitably.

Talking of tangents Notch I have been full of hot air recently thanks for asking. I'm been trying to eat more vegetables. The results have neither been pleasing to my sense of taste nor nose.

Suprised to see so much page space and conspiracy theories surrounding Zebo not been selected.
But I am inclined to agree with what hook has said about some of the senior players and coaching staff not taking too kindly to Zebo's attitude on the summe tour.
Played a lot of rugby and gaa and I have experienced similar situations a couple of times.
He has only himself to blame and making excuses and shovelling merde at everyone but zebo does not do him any favors.

Yes, but I definitely got it from the internet!  

Whether its true or not is something of a moot point. Zebo having to earn the right to wear the green jersey many times over will make him a better player, and make him grateful for the opportunity when he does get it. He can be a top class player if he wants to be. In the meantime, we have many good players in the back three.

I'm struggling to see the downside for Ireland here to be honest.

Notch wrote:Yes, but I definitely got it from the internet!  

Whether its true or not is something of a moot point. Zebo having to earn the right to wear the green jersey many times over will make him a better player, and make him grateful for the opportunity when he does get it. He can be a top class player if he wants to be. In the meantime, we have many good players in the back three.

I'm struggling to see the downside for Ireland here to be honest.

Meeting England at their home might be one

But of course we hope not.  Plus.  I'm seriously thinking that if we are lucky (and good enough) to beat England then the shackles of our gameplan to date really has to come off against Italy.  Now there's a game where a Zebo might come in as we try to use that game for some much needed points collecting.

It's no point in us doing the usual chat here about not taking Italy lightly, showing them respect, 'they're a good team', 'they beat us last year', 'you have to earn the right to go wide' etc.

I'm afraid we'll need a points cushion before we have a stab at France on the final day.  England will certainly be thinking of using them as that kind of resource.  This is when Ireland puts down its marker.  If we have real intentions into the future, then we have to be putting certain sides to the sword.... without any guilt.  Total intensity, total ruthlessness.

He is a fine player and will earn many caps in the future.

Id be surprised to see Ryan on the bench over McCarthy this weekend.

Possibly Secret, but the shackles you speak of is another word for structure.

Don't think throwing that away is what Joe will do, rather I expect dimensions will be added over time.
Fully expect us to see evidence of this the weekend.

I like Donnacha Ryan, a pretty good international and solid partner for POC. Toner is catching him though. There's a thought that should give Ryan pause for thought. Devin Toner might take his place. I heard Ryan got injured laughing so much at the very suggestion. I would have joined him in such cruel but deserving mirth. But it just goes to show every club player across the globe, no matter how incomprehensibly useless you are, there is always hope. Barack Obama wrote a biography about this episode, The Audacity of Hope. Subtitle, Pretentious Twaddle.

Ryan probably hasn't had enough gametime for such an occasion. I personally wouldn't pick him for this round of matches given his rustiness.

I know what I mean and I don't mean a free for all with no structure, Feagh.  I mean doing what England will be intent on doing - no bowing to Italy and saying they have as much right to be here as we do, and we're going to have our traditional 'playing down to their level' game to 'respect' them.

I've been there way too many times before.  Winning and the manner of winning is in the head.  If we take a New Zealand game attitude or a Welsh game attitude to the Italian game then realistically we should score highly.  But Ireland always makes you kinda guess what they'll do with the 'lesser' sides.  

I want that gone.  I want intensity enough and professionalism enough to realise points might prove vital in the end.  We do not want regretting coming in again behind France or England (or Wales!) on the tally of the points we left with Italy.

No guarantee even of a win - I'm never arrogant.  No guarantee even that we'll beat Italy.  But if we have the ammunition to make Italy suffer; and I believe we have, then we should play the game to do just that.